Thoughts About John Locke, Nemesis and Jacob

[notsolost42]

First, I want to begin by saying that Chester and whomever else was onboard the Mesopotamia theory was probably very right. I think that is where Jacob and the Nemesis came from. Mesopotamia can be connected to a strong philosophical nature, an interest in astronomy that was quite accurate for the times, and a unique connection with ancient Egyptian medicine as well as influences on the Greek and Roman civilization. The Mesopotamian civilization also had many rises and falls over the millenia, similar to what Nemesis said on the beach. The most unique connection was with water. They believed the world was a flat disc surrounded by a huge holed space and above that was heaven. They also believed that the water was everywhere, the top, bottom and sides and that the universe was born from this enormous sea.

It was that last sentence in that paragraph that sold me lock, stock and barrel. In the translations I made from the glyphs in the "temple" basement, I noted that it said another world lies beneath the sea. Something quite close to that. I'll find that old thread and post the link. It fits incredibly with this Mesopotamian theory.

Okay, that established, let's get to John Locke. But first, I need to talk about Jacob and Nemesis a little. I think that we can safely assume that they have some type of control on time or spacetime and can manipulate it at will. I base this on the way Jacob traveled back and touched our losties both as children and then Hurley and Sayid later. He never aged or looked different than when we saw him on the beach. other than being a little "cleaned up." Now, to John. I think that John Locke has always been Nemesis since birth. Yes, don't freak out. John Locke is in a timeloop like the compass. I think that was the entire purpose of showing that whole, confusing but true story arc. Anyway, I think that Nemesis had to let John Locke live his life out that he would have always lived before he could emerge because it is a time loop. Once John was dead, Nemesis could emerge fully as John. And thus we have deadLocke or flock or whatever you wish to call him. I don't think that Nemesis/deadLocke is part of smokie or vice versa though. But, they are eternally connected. Smokie may be the judge in this game.

Here are a few reasons that I think John Locke was always Nemesis:

As a newborn infant, a very sickly one at that, John lived and surprised everyone. As he grew, he drew pictures with what appears to be the smoke monster. This is from his memories as Nemesis. He had a preoccupation with knives as we saw when he chose the knife over the Book of Laws when Richard came to visit. When John was older and working in the box factory that Hurley would eventually buy, while sitting at his desk and adding numbers on his calculator, you can hear the smoke monsters noises. He also had a pension for playing war games, which included maneuvering his game pieces to win the battle. Through his life, John could not kill anyone even when faced with that possibility. In this case, the federal agent at the drug dealer camp.

On the island, John immediately showed us a very bizzare side. On the second day after the crash, he told Walt about the game backgammon. He said it was the oldest game in history and that back then the dice were made of bone. In that infamous scene, he picks up one game piece for each side and describes it as one dark and one light and this black and white theme has played throughout, as we all know. John Locke's sensativity and knowledge of the island is because he is Nemesis. He knows when it will rain, etc. He looked into the eye of the island and it was beautiful. He is the only one that stood out in the open and faced down smokie and lived. On his third day on the island (I believe it was day3) John already did not want anyone else to leave. He struck Sayid in the back of the head and smashed the two way radio. John was also faced with having to kill Anthony Cooper and again, he could not do it.

So, here's where John Locke falls into the time loop that allows Nemesis to take over. It was shortly after Nemesis or deadLocke had first appeared. He had something to do immediately and took everyone to the beechcraft, where he interfered and set up everything that would happen to John Locke in his past. He changed his history and it became a time loop at that point.

So, this "split" that allowed deadLocke to appear and John Locke's dead body to appear happened because when Locke died, it allowed Nemesis to appear or be born or how ever you want to describe it. There were two Locke's because there always were two Locke's inside of him. Well, one being Nemesis and the other John. The death of John allowed for the deadLocke to emerge. Kind of a phoenix rising from the ashes I guess.

So, while John is growing up Jacob has work to do. He knows that Nemesis had found his loophole. Jacob went back in time and touched our losties so that they would appear on the island. At that time, the first time, he did not have to touch Hurley, Bernard or Rose. I think he didn't have to because they would have always been on that flight. Hurley had to make it because of his mother's birthday and Rose just wanted Bernard to stop searching for her cures and to just live the life they had in the time they had together. And by the way, that is exactly what they wound up doing on the island and quite happily, too. Jacob was gathering his army to fight deadLocke/Nemesis in the battle we will see next season. That is why he brought them all back. The ones that had been touched before the Oceanic Flight, Sawyer, Kate, Jack would always come back. He had to ensure that Hurley and Sayid would return as well. Hurley has been referred to as the alchemist on a few occasions and I think that this relates back to Mesopotamian times. And Sayid is an Iraqi, which is the area where Mesopotamia first began. He also brought Ilana and Bram, his foot soldiers I imagine. So, I think that they have had some kind of unknown involvement with Jacob all along.

I am trying to figure in the Others next. I think that they will be part of Jacob's army though. I think the Others are good guys, having always seeked to carry out Jacob's wishes and keep the island safe. They have always chosen to take young children so that they could be raised or changed (possibly like Ben might have been) to become Others.

Well, I guess that about covers what has just come to me in a flood of thoughts and I hope I was able to write it so it can be understood the way I understand it.

[losttime]

First, I want to begin by saying that Chester and whomever else was onboard the Mesopotamia theory was probably very right. I think that is where Jacob and the Nemesis came from. Mesopotamia can be connected to a strong philosophical nature, an interest in astronomy that was quite accurate for the times, and a unique connection with ancient Egyptian medicine as well as influences on the Greek and Roman civilization. The Mesopotamian civilization also had many rises and falls over the millenia, similar to what Nemesis said on the beach. The most unique connection was with water. They believed the world was a flat disc surrounded by a huge holed space and above that was heaven. They also believed that the water was everywhere, the top, bottom and sides and that the universe was born from this enormous sea.

It was that last sentence in that paragraph that sold me lock, stock and barrel. In the translations I made from the glyphs in the "temple" basement, I noted that it said another world lies beneath the sea. Something quite close to that. I'll find that old thread and post the link. It fits incredibly with this Mesopotamian theory.

Okay, that established, let's get to John Locke. But first, I need to talk about Jacob and Nemesis a little. I think that we can safely assume that they have some type of control on time or spacetime and can manipulate it at will. I base this on the way Jacob traveled back and touched our losties both as children and then Hurley and Sayid later. He never aged or looked different than when we saw him on the beach. other than being a little "cleaned up." Now, to John. I think that John Locke has always been Nemesis since birth. Yes, don't freak out. John Locke is in a timeloop like the compass. I think that was the entire purpose of showing that whole, confusing but true story arc. Anyway, I think that Nemesis had to let John Locke live his life out that he would have always lived before he could emerge because it is a time loop. Once John was dead, Nemesis could emerge fully as John. And thus we have deadLocke or flock or whatever you wish to call him. I don't think that Nemesis/deadLocke is part of smokie or vice versa though. But, they are eternally connected. Smokie may be the judge in this game.

Here are a few reasons that I think John Locke was always Nemesis:

As a newborn infant, a very sickly one at that, John lived and surprised everyone. As he grew, he drew pictures with what appears to be the smoke monster. This is from his memories as Nemesis. He had a preoccupation with knives as we saw when he chose the knife over the Book of Laws when Richard came to visit. When John was older and working in the box factory that Hurley would eventually buy, while sitting at his desk and adding numbers on his calculator, you can hear the smoke monsters noises. He also had a pension for playing war games, which included maneuvering his game pieces to win the battle. Through his life, John could not kill anyone even when faced with that possibility. In this case, the federal agent at the drug dealer camp.

On the island, John immediately showed us a very bizzare side. On the second day after the crash, he told Walt about the game backgammon. He said it was the oldest game in history and that back then the dice were made of bone. In that infamous scene, he picks up one game piece for each side and describes it as one dark and one light and this black and white theme has played throughout, as we all know. John Locke's sensativity and knowledge of the island is because he is Nemesis. He knows when it will rain, etc. He looked into the eye of the island and it was beautiful. He is the only one that stood out in the open and faced down smokie and lived. On his third day on the island (I believe it was day3) John already did not want anyone else to leave. He struck Sayid in the back of the head and smashed the two way radio. John was also faced with having to kill Anthony Cooper and again, he could not do it.

So, here's where John Locke falls into the time loop that allows Nemesis to take over. It was shortly after Nemesis or deadLocke had first appeared. He had something to do immediately and took everyone to the beechcraft, where he interfered and set up everything that would happen to John Locke in his past. He changed his history and it became a time loop at that point.

So, this "split" that allowed deadLocke to appear and John Locke's dead body to appear happened because when Locke died, it allowed Nemesis to appear or be born or how ever you want to describe it. There were two Locke's because there always were two Locke's inside of him. Well, one being Nemesis and the other John. The death of John allowed for the deadLocke to emerge. Kind of a phoenix rising from the ashes I guess.

So, while John is growing up Jacob has work to do. He knows that Nemesis had found his loophole. Jacob went back in time and touched our losties so that they would appear on the island. At that time, the first time, he did not have to touch Hurley, Bernard or Rose. I think he didn't have to because they would have always been on that flight. Hurley had to make it because of his mother's birthday and Rose just wanted Bernard to stop searching for her cures and to just live the life they had in the time they had together. And by the way, that is exactly what they wound up doing on the island and quite happily, too. Jacob was gathering his army to fight deadLocke/Nemesis in the battle we will see next season. That is why he brought them all back. The ones that had been touched before the Oceanic Flight, Sawyer, Kate, Jack would always come back. He had to ensure that Hurley and Sayid would return as well. Hurley has been referred to as the alchemist on a few occasions and I think that this relates back to Mesopotamian times. And Sayid is an Iraqi, which is the area where Mesopotamia first began. He also brought Ilana and Bram, his foot soldiers I imagine. So, I think that they have had some kind of unknown involvement with Jacob all along.

I am trying to figure in the Others next. I think that they will be part of Jacob's army though. I think the Others are good guys, having always seeked to carry out Jacob's wishes and keep the island safe. They have always chosen to take young children so that they could be raised or changed (possibly like Ben might have been) to become Others.

Well, I guess that about covers what has just come to me in a flood of thoughts and I hope I was able to write it so it can be understood the way I understand it.

Just to clarify, Eko also faced down Smokie and had survived that "face-off" He didnt die until later on and as everyone esle when he turned his back on Smokie. JL almost fell victim to Smokie as well when Smokie draged him through the jungle and almost pulled him into the CV vent like he did to Montand(guy who arm got ripped off by Smokie). And with regard to why JL struck Sayid in the back when they were trying to make contact with that signal was already explained by JL to Sayid. It had nothing to do with not getting off the Island but JL explained it as everyone was so intent on getting off the Island that they werent thinking about what the frnech woman was saying about everyone got infected. And JL asked Sayid if that was really a place he wanted everyone to go.
And really JL did not tell RA to get the bullet out of JL's leg and tell him he had to die, it was the person pretending to be JL so it really cant be a time-loop since RA never handed JL the compass when he asked for it before leaving for the plane with Ben.
As far as I can tell, JL was never really "Nemesis" until after he was killed by Ben and returned to the Island. I think the "Nemesis" helped JL along without him realizing it to make JL think he was something "special". Examples include knowing when it was going to rain, the drawing of Smokie as a kid( a vision brought to him either by Smokie or Nemesis, and "looking in the eye of the Island" and seeing something beautiful and thinking he heard Jacob say "Help Me" while Ben didnt hear it. We already know that Jacob had not been in the Cabin for some time and someone else was using it. Now what we dont know if that time frame that the Cabin was being used by someone else started before JL and Bens visit, which I believe it did, or sometime after.

[notsolost42]

You miss the point Losttime, as far as the time loop is concerned. I am saying that by deadLocke's actions in having Richard give John Locke that message it started a him in a time loop. It has nothing to do with the compass. I only used the compass as an example because people get the time loop that it was in. It was that time loop that was created that enabled the Nemesis to take over John Locke from birth. He changed Locke's history.

As for John Locke knocking Sayid unconscious when he tried to triangulate the radio signal, it had everything to do with getting off the island. John did not want anyone to leave from the get go.

When John Locke was grabbed by smokie and being dragged along towards the Cerberus Vent, he told Jack that everything would be okay and had absolutely no fear. Why? Because he was already familiar with smokie, in my opinion. When smokie faced down Eko it did result, ultimately, in his death.

It is my theory, for the reasons I posted, that I believe John Locke and Nemesis were one in the same since birth. That was why he had the "special connections" with the island. We have different opinions and that is fine. We will see what we will see.

[Sox1Series]

So, here's where John Locke falls into the time loop that allows Nemesis to take over. It was shortly after Nemesis or deadLocke had first appeared. He had something to do immediately and took everyone to the beechcraft, where he interfered and set up everything that would happen to John Locke in his past. He changed his history and it became a time loop at that point.

So, this "split" that allowed deadLocke to appear and John Locke's dead body to appear happened because when Locke died, it allowed Nemesis to appear or be born or how ever you want to describe it. There were two Locke's because there always were two Locke's inside of him. Well, one being Nemesis and the other John. The death of John allowed for the deadLocke to emerge. Kind of a phoenix rising from the ashes I guess.




Notso - I like where you're going with this theory, but I'm a little confused with when Locke falls into the time loop in the beechcraft scene. Can you elaborate on what you're referring to?

[notsolost42]

Notso - I like where you're going with this theory, but I'm a little confused with when Locke falls into the time loop in the beechcraft scene. Can you elaborate on what you're referring to?

Sure, I'd be happy to try. Okay, the best I can figure is that Locke's time loop is like the compass time loop, which is canon per TPTB. So, a time loop has no beginning and no ending, right? It just keeps going around and around. I think that when John Locke was at the beechcraft and deadLocke tells Richard what to say to him, that he must die, etc., that is showing us a time loop. John was manuvered to die by deadLocke, who at his death, could emerge. John would never have had everything happen to him as a child if deadLocke hadn't have interfered. Richard never would have followed his birth, tested him in childhood, tried to recruit him as a teenager, etc. It was all from this seed that was planted by deadLocke and it started at Locke's birth. When John Locke spoke to Richard in 1954 he essentially set up what was to happen. Nothing could have happened without this interference. This really sets up the events in a time loop. It's like which came first, the chicken or the egg? Did I help at all or confuse even more?

[Sox1Series]

Sure, I'd be happy to try. Okay, the best I can figure is that Locke's time loop is like the compass time loop, which is canon per TPTB. So, a time loop has no beginning and no ending, right? It just keeps going around and around. I think that when John Locke was at the beechcraft and deadLocke tells Richard what to say to him, that he must die, etc., that is showing us a time loop. John was manuvered to die by deadLocke, who at his death, could emerge. John would never have had everything happen to him as a child if deadLocke hadn't have interfered. Richard never would have followed his birth, tested him in childhood, tried to recruit him as a teenager, etc. It was all from this seed that was planted by deadLocke and it started at Locke's birth. When John Locke spoke to Richard in 1954 he essentially set up what was to happen. Nothing could have happened without this interference. This really sets up the events in a time loop. It's like which came first, the chicken or the egg? Did I help at all or confuse even more?

That explains it very well. The time loop is naturally confusing because it too MiB to tell Locke (through RA) to kill himself in order for MiB to emerge. But MiB had already emerged when he told Locke to kill himself through RA. It does sound like the beginning to the loop, but as you originally stated, there is no beginning or end to it, it always was.

[notsolost42]

That explains it very well. The time loop is naturally confusing because it too MiB to tell Locke (through RA) to kill himself in order for MiB to emerge. But MiB had already emerged when he told Locke to kill himself through RA. It does sound like the beginning to the loop, but as you originally stated, there is no beginning or end to it, it always was.

Okay, I'm glad that came out right then. So, does any of this make sense?

[Sox1Series]

Okay, I'm glad that came out right then. So, does any of this make sense?

I think it does. I think that the dead Locke in the coffin is the original dead Locke, which means MiB is someone in the embodiment of Locke. So your theory is interesting and pretty solid. Great job - I'll keep giving it more thought.

My other theory that I keep toying with is a bit more far reaching. Locke is dead in the coffin, and also alive. Meaning, at some point, Locke continued to time travel when he turned the wheel. Locke2 is the time-travelling Locke, while Locke1 is dead in the coffin. The time travelling Locke became wise over the years and learned what he had to do. I have nothing to back this up and am still confused about it, but I'm still drawn to it. Someone give me a gun and put me out of my mysery - I'm drawn to things that don't make any sense!!!!

[losttime]

You miss the point Losttime, as far as the time loop is concerned. I am saying that by deadLocke's actions in having Richard give John Locke that message it started a him in a time loop. It has nothing to do with the compass. I only used the compass as an example because people get the time loop that it was in. It was that time loop that was created that enabled the Nemesis to take over John Locke from birth. He changed Locke's history.

As for John Locke knocking Sayid unconscious when he tried to triangulate the radio signal, it had everything to do with getting off the island. John did not want anyone to leave from the get go.

When John Locke was grabbed by smokie and being dragged along towards the Cerberus Vent, he told Jack that everything would be okay and had absolutely no fear. Why? Because he was already familiar with smokie, in my opinion. When smokie faced down Eko it did result, ultimately, in his death.

It is my theory, for the reasons I posted, that I believe John Locke and Nemesis were one in the same since birth. That was why he had the "special connections" with the island. We have different opinions and that is fine. We will see what we will see.

Well I dont necessarily agree about the time-loop but anyway, than JL's reason for hitting Sayid was a lie? This is a late edit. but when JL was being dragged by Smokie just because JL thought he was going to be OK doesnt necessarily mean he was. JL did have a look of fear right before he was dragged by Smokie. That is pure speculation on your part that JL was going to be OK and based on our other example of soimeone being dragged through the woods by Smokie into the vent led the this "infection" that Roussea talked about and we saw. SO I am not really convinced that JL was going to be safe and I am willing to guesss that he was going to be infected as well to somehow use it for the loophole.

[notsolost42]

That explains it very well. The time loop is naturally confusing because it too MiB to tell Locke (through RA) to kill himself in order for MiB to emerge. But MiB had already emerged when he told Locke to kill himself through RA. It does sound like the beginning to the loop, but as you originally stated, there is no beginning or end to it, it always was.

I think it does. I think that the dead Locke in the coffin is the original dead Locke, which means MiB is someone in the embodiment of Locke. So your theory is interesting and pretty solid. Great job - I'll keep giving it more thought.

My other theory that I keep toying with is a bit more far reaching. Locke is dead in the coffin, and also alive. Meaning, at some point, Locke continued to time travel when he turned the wheel. Locke2 is the time-travelling Locke, while Locke1 is dead in the coffin. The time travelling Locke became wise over the years and learned what he had to do. I have nothing to back this up and am still confused about it, but I'm still drawn to it. Someone give me a gun and put me out of my mysery - I'm drawn to things that don't make any sense!!!!

The only problem with it that I can see, and I don't really know if it's right or wrong, is that you can't time travel to a place after your death. So far, I think that we have only see them time travel into the past, not the future. That is not actually set in stone though. I like your idea also! I had something similar, in that deadLocke crossed over from one mirror universe to the other, where the deadLocke existed. This actually may still be possible with my theory here. If there are mirror worlds, Nemesis "sets up the time loop" and his essence is born into Locke in one world. IDK. I like how I can answer many questions about when Locke was young with my original though.

[notsolost42]

Well I dont necessarily agree about the time-loop but anyway, than JL's reason for hitting Sayid was a lie?

Can you post the transcript with the actual conversation? I don't remember it so specifically. It would be a help and put things in perspective. Anyway, John Locke has proven himself a liar on a few occasions.

[losttime]

Can you post the transcript with the actual conversation? I don't remember it so specifically. It would be a help and put things in perspective. Anyway, John Locke has proven himself a liar on a few occasions.

do you know the name of the epi?

[notsolost42]

do you know the name of the epi?

It should be around epi 3 or maybe 4 in the first season. I just watched epi two last night and it was the second day on the island where they just climbed to higher ground to try the radio. They triangulate it soon after that. I would try 3 I guess.

[losttime]

It should be around epi 3 or maybe 4 in the first season. I just watched epi two last night and it was the second day on the island where they just climbed to higher ground to try the radio. They triangulate it soon after that. I would try 3 I guess.


Here it is it was actually from epi 21 "The Greater Good"

LOCKE: You were hit from behind -- knocked unconscious? When you woke up your transceiver, your equipment was destroyed. That was me.

COMMERCIAL BREAK

[Sayid grabs Locke by the neck and puts the gun to his throat.]

SAYID: This is one time you'd better not be telling the truth.

LOCKE: I did what was in everyone's best interest.

SAYID: You ruined my chance to find the source.

LOCKE: The source of a distress call that kept saying they're dead, it killed them all, over and over? Is that a place you really want to lead people to?

SAYID: Why wait all this time? Why not tell me then?

LOCKE: Because back then you wouldn't have engaged in reasonable debate, and nobody else would have. You were all so focused on getting off the island that you weren't seeing things clearly. It's like what's happening now with the raft.

[notsolost42]

Here it is it was actually from epi 21 "The Greater Good"

LOCKE: You were hit from behind -- knocked unconscious? When you woke up your transceiver, your equipment was destroyed. That was me.

COMMERCIAL BREAK

[Sayid grabs Locke by the neck and puts the gun to his throat.]

SAYID: This is one time you'd better not be telling the truth.

LOCKE: I did what was in everyone's best interest.

SAYID: You ruined my chance to find the source.

LOCKE: The source of a distress call that kept saying they're dead, it killed them all, over and over? Is that a place you really want to lead people to?

SAYID: Why wait all this time? Why not tell me then?

LOCKE: Because back then you wouldn't have engaged in reasonable debate, and nobody else would have. You were all so focused on getting off the island that you weren't seeing things clearly. It's like what's happening now with the raft.

I actually think that dialogue proves my point that Locke did not want anyone to leave the island from the get go. Thanks. I appreciate your finding it.

[losttime]

I actually think that dialogue proves my point that Locke did not want anyone to leave the island from the get go. Thanks. I appreciate your finding it.

Well of course it would because that coincides with your theory.

[notsolost42]

Well of course it would because that coincides with your theory.

Yes, it is what I had in my original post. That's why it was part of my theory because it was one of the first events that showed Locke did not want anyone to leave the island from the beginning.

[rachelskid]

i've thought some of this as well, recently. http://www.lost.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10363

i wonder if two people coming to similar theories means all on their owns, means there is some evidence for this that our subconscience has processed and the brain has not yet identified.

[3d-aholic]

So if I post my theories here...then people will talk about them instead of cheese?

[Desi420]

The only problem with it that I can see, and I don't really know if it's right or wrong, is that you can't time travel to a place after your death. So far, I think that we have only see them time travel into the past, not the future. That is not actually set in stone though. I like your idea also! I had something similar, in that deadLocke crossed over from one mirror universe to the other, where the deadLocke existed. This actually may still be possible with my theory here. If there are mirror worlds, Nemesis "sets up the time loop" and his essence is born into Locke in one world. IDK. I like how I can answer many questions about when Locke was young with my original though.
They did travel to the future. It was 3 yrs in the future that deadlocke tells Richard to tell Locke of the living that he has to die. And didn't the doctor from the frieghter wash up on the beach a day before he was murdered? Besides, how was the nemesis able to occupy Locke while trapped in the cabin NY the ashes through out lockes life time.

Just acting as a whole puncher
Here. I like the theory though

[rachelskid]

So if I post my theories here...then people will talk about them instead of cheese?

luck of the draw....a hi-jacking can occur anywhere any time

[rachelskid]

They did travel to the future. It was 3 yrs in the future that deadlocke tells Richard to tell Locke of the living that he has to die. And didn't the doctor from the frieghter wash up on the beach a day before he was murdered? Besides, how was the nemesis able to occupy Locke while trapped in the cabin NY the ashes through out lockes life time.

Just acting as a whole puncher
Here. I like the theory though

how do you know it was MiB in the cabin? we have no idea who is there? the whole is why did jacob heal him after push from building?

[notsolost42]

how do you know it was MiB in the cabin? we have no idea who is there? the whole is why did jacob heal him after push from building?

Exactly. I don't think it was Nemesis in the cabin actually. Wasn't Jacob taken from there? Didn't he leave a clue for Ilana there?
I am going to read the thread you posted Rachelskid. I'll come back after I do but I think you may be on to something. It's either that or mass hypnosis! lol!

[notsolost42]

i've thought some of this as well, recently. http://www.lost.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10363

i wonder if two people coming to similar theories means all on their owns, means there is some evidence for this that our subconscience has processed and the brain has not yet identified.

Great minds think alike! lol! Yes, we did say virtually the same thing and exactly the same essence. John Locke was always Nemesis in some part until his death and Nemesis could emerge. I forgot that dream that Claire had. Another great example of why this is so! And, quite possibly a big clue as to Aaron's overall importance to the island.

[Desi420]

Exactly. I don't think it was Nemesis in the cabin actually. Wasn't Jacob taken from there? Didn't he leave a clue for Ilana there?
I am going to read the thread you posted Rachelskid. I'll come back after I do but I think you may be on to something. It's either that or mass hypnosis! lol!
Jacob was travelling throughout the losties lives. The occupants of the cabin were manipulating John Locke to move the island. And the message for ilana and crew couldve been nemesis just messing with them.

[notsolost42]

Jacob was travelling throughout the losties lives. The occupants of the cabin were manipulating John Locke to move the island. And the message for ilana and crew couldve been nemesis just messing with them.

Actually, Jacob could have easily been time traveling to meet the losties as children and such. The occupants of the cabin that manipulated John Locke were Christian with Claire at his side. The message for Ilana came from Jacob...remember the hospital scene? So, I just don't agree with you but please keep trying so I can see how solid this idea really might be.

[Desi420]

Actually, Jacob could have easily been time traveling to meet the losties as children and such. The occupants of the cabin that manipulated John Locke were Christian with Claire at his side. The message for Ilana came from Jacob...remember the hospital scene? So, I just don't agree with you but please keep trying so I can see how solid this idea really might be.
Don't get me wrong, this is the best idea I've read about John.
I always thought, since I started rewatching from the beginning, that there is something fishy about JL. What's with the ashes then. I do have to tip my hat to Rachelskid, nice description

[notsolost42]

Don't get me wrong, this is the best idea I've read about John.
I always thought, since I started rewatching from the beginning, that there is something fishy about JL. What's with the ashes then. I do have to tip my hat to Rachelskid, nice description

Absolutely! She has great insight! Now, you don't get me wrong. I want you to come at the theory. I want to see if I can answer all of your questions logically. That would help strengthen the theory if I can. So, gimme what 'cha got! Play devils advocate! lol.

[Desi420]

Absolutely! She has great insight! Now, you don't get me wrong. I want you to come at the theory. I want to see if I can answer all of your questions logically. That would help strengthen the theory if I can. So, gimme what 'cha got! Play devils advocate! lol.
So what's your take on the ashes.?

[notsolost42]

So what's your take on the ashes.?

I've been thinking about it. I don't really have any concrete ideas just yet other than what most people are thinking. Either something to do with smokie or the volcano. I am leaning towards smokie.

It has been established that Jacob and Ben did have a relationship though. TPTB had said way back that they needed each other or something like that. Ben kept him imprisoned. A circle of ash is used in many religious ceremonies as far as I can see. Everything from Buddist to Wicca. But I also remember TPTB said it was a way that Ben could control Jacob.

[losttime]

Yes, it is what I had in my original post. That's why it was part of my theory because it was one of the first events that showed Locke did not want anyone to leave the island from the beginning.

I think you missed my point. I knew you were going to say that JL didnt want people o leave the Island from the begining. He was giving examples of how they were going about it. He knew a raft like the one they were going to use would have resulted in the death of all of them. I dont think JL wants to leave the Island because he was healed right after getting there and is being influenced by Beacboy. You dont believe that the raft they vult would survive in the open waters do you? JL told them that their tunnel vision of finding the source of the signal and using the raft are both very dangerous. But thats how I see it

[notsolost42]

I think you missed my point. I knew you were going to say that JL didnt want people o leave the Island from the begining. He was giving examples of how they were going about it. He knew a raft like the one they were going to use would have resulted in the death of all of them. I dont think JL wants to leave the Island because he was healed right after getting there and is being influenced by Beacboy. You dont believe that the raft they vult would survive in the open waters do you? JL told them that their tunnel vision of finding the source of the signal and using the raft are both very dangerous. But thats how I see it

That's not exactly what he said. Here's what you posted:

LOCKE: You were hit from behind -- knocked unconscious? When you woke up your transceiver, your equipment was destroyed. That was me.

COMMERCIAL BREAK

[Sayid grabs Locke by the neck and puts the gun to his throat.]

SAYID: This is one time you'd better not be telling the truth.

LOCKE: I did what was in everyone's best interest.

SAYID: You ruined my chance to find the source.

LOCKE: The source of a distress call that kept saying they're dead, it killed them all, over and over? Is that a place you really want to lead people to?

SAYID: Why wait all this time? Why not tell me then?

LOCKE: Because back then you wouldn't have engaged in reasonable debate, and nobody else would have. You were all so focused on getting off the island that you weren't seeing things clearly. It's like what's happening now with the raft.


Now, I can understand you interpreting when John said what he did about leading them to the radio tower but I don't see it quite that way. It's not tunnel vision to me that he is suggesting to Sayid. It's him trying to create doubt in Sayid. And it's the same with the raft. He is creating doubt in Sayid's mind about leaving the island. He uses fear in both cases, to me, to create doubt to keep them on the island. Maybe you and I see the same actions but with very different motivations.

[losttime]

That's not exactly what he said. Here's what you posted:

LOCKE: You were hit from behind -- knocked unconscious? When you woke up your transceiver, your equipment was destroyed. That was me.

COMMERCIAL BREAK

[Sayid grabs Locke by the neck and puts the gun to his throat.]

SAYID: This is one time you'd better not be telling the truth.

LOCKE: I did what was in everyone's best interest.

SAYID: You ruined my chance to find the source.

LOCKE: The source of a distress call that kept saying they're dead, it killed them all, over and over? Is that a place you really want to lead people to?

SAYID: Why wait all this time? Why not tell me then?

LOCKE: Because back then you wouldn't have engaged in reasonable debate, and nobody else would have. You were all so focused on getting off the island that you weren't seeing things clearly. It's like what's happening now with the raft.


Now, I can understand you interpreting when John said what he did about leading them to the radio tower but I don't see it quite that way. It's not tunnel vision to me that he is suggesting to Sayid. It's him trying to create doubt in Sayid. And it's the same with the raft. He is creating doubt in Sayid's mind about leaving the island. He uses fear in both cases, to me, to create doubt to keep them on the island. Maybe you and I see the same actions but with very different motivations.

Yup interpreting the conversation differently. And I know what he said I sent you the script

[notsolost42]

Yup interpreting the conversation differently. And I know what he said I sent you the script

Yup. And I read it. I will agree to disagree with you.

[losttime]

Yup. And I read it. I will agree to disagree with you.

As if you needed to say that.

[notsolost42]

So, back on track here, I think that another big tell was that Locke was able to walk after the crash. I think it's kind of funny. We've been led down this path all along to believe that Locke was "special" and had this connection to the island. Well, what makes more sense than he has always been Nemesis. There has been nothing shown to us that would give Locke any special connections and even Richard has said that there was nothing special that he could see in Locke. What a twist it would be and I think it is!

[notsolost42]

I was just reading Lostpedia about the time flashes that happened after Ben turned the wheel. It occured to me that in 2007 John Locke was on the island in three forms. That is to say, there were three John Locke's on the island in 2007 simultaneously.

There was deadLocke on the beach, dead Locke in the box, and John Locke at the beechcraft. This was all in 2007. That was the scene when deadLocke told Richard the message he had to give John Locke at the beechcraft as well as to give him the compass.

It is John Locke in his past, present and future simultaneously. The future is dead Locke in the box who dies in 2008. According to Lostpedia, John Locke died on January 18, 2008. The present is deadLocke on the beach, who is Nemesis. The past is John Locke at the beechcraft who time shifted to 2007 when Ben turned the wheel. The Locke at the beechcraft was in 2007 as was the dead Locke in the box and the deadLocke on the beach. This is screaming time loop to me just like the compass, which is a canon time loop.

This is also very interesting because it shows that the Ajira flight 316 landed on the island at a different time than it took off. The Ajira flight left LA after January 18, 2008. The flight must have been about 1 or 2 weeks after Locke's death based on Jack reading the death notice of Jeremy Bentham, the funeral home viewing, Jack and Ben hooking up, the storage of Locke's body at the butcher shop and finally the body being boarded on the plane. Just a guesstimate here based on all of the events that occured. So, if the plane left sometime at the end of January 2008 and landed in 2007 then the island time is certainly different from the real world. This proves to me that when Oceanic 815 crashed on the island, the island certainly did not have to be in 2004. Just because the plane left Austrailia in 2004 and the freighter that was sent to the island had a calendar showing 2004 does not mean that everything the losties went through on the island were in 2004. Not at all.

This means that Jacob and Nemesis were no doubt lurking about on the island. We saw a "ghostly looking" Jacob in the cabin who spoke to Locke but no sign of Nemesis, unless he was always John Locke as I said in my original post and maybe that's why he spoke to him. When Jacob said "Help me" to Locke (Nemesis) he may have been moving through time while imprisoned in the cabin, just as the cabin was moving. He appeared to be in old looking clothing similar to what Richard was wearing the first time he met young Ben in the jungle and the costumes that Tom and the Others wore. Maybe Jacob knew John Locke was Nemesis and was asking for his help to be released. We know that the circle of ash was broken in 2007 and Jacob was gone from the cabin. He had been released. He was now in the statue. All we know for sure, per TPTB, is that Jacob never impersonated or manifested as anyone else on the island. I think the biggest part of the mystery is still Jacob. Who imprisoned him in the cabin and who released him? Richard or smokie come to mind first but I have no ideas as to how or why and can't offer any kind of theory about it. All that comes to mind is from room 23, "Only fools are enslaved in time and space."

[notsolost42]

Whoa. I hope all that is understandable and makes sense to someone else besides me!

[rachelskid]

wait a second, so are you say that not only did the losties end up in 1977, but ajira went back in time as well when it landed on the island? because, if you say for sure that its 2007 when jacob got killed/flocke is walking around/illana and bram are carring the box then we more evidence that locke isn't being possesed. rather, there is both a body and another alive body. ok, this is kind of crazy, and almost simple...

there was a plane crash, so everything from the plane scattered. we saw christian's empty coffin, for all we know there is a body some where on the island. but, the plane crashed into a time when christin was still alive, so there he is alive on the island and dead. this is nothing new, people have theorized this oft before. but, now it seems like there is more evidence for it.

we know that's possible: the losties skipped to when claire had aaron and the light in the hatch. sawyer and juliette and sawyer and locke had very ackward conversations about that. it seemed to have scared them because they realized two of themselves can exist at the same time on the island.

so, now if locke died in 2008, but they landed in 2007, there he is walking around just being locke, not knowing there is a body of him. just like christian did, walk around, saw jack in season 1. except christian had reason to stay away, just like locke, he remebered dying and he was scared to show himself to jack. Locke has no fear because he is MiB and always has been.

and, i don't know if this was discussed at the time, but i don't remeber seeing it. When they were showing 70's dharma, they would show a black screen saying 1977. then when they came back to the 316's and locke, a black screen would say, thrity years later. not the date, but 30 years later. maybe there was a reason for that? maybe it is 2007. but they left froom 2008. while there, the 316'ers have no reason to know they are but a mere year back in time, or even months. At the time, every commented that they were sppon feeding and pandering with those black screens. but maybe it was a clue? i mean, when have they ever spoon fed us anything?

so, when flght 815 originally crashed, they probably moved some back in time. not much, not enough to even notice. ben had the island turned off basically. blocked through the tower and the looking glass. but then, charlie killed the looking glass, unblocked everything and then desmind and the failsafe key, and then the island started moving again. so, this time when they crash, they land in a time where the island is now. and, the only reason hawking could figure out where and when the island was, is because it became visable again and she had faraday's notebook.

so, i bet, locke is MIB and always has been, that's why he was special, thats why he had to be on the island. and, i bet that after jughead detonated, nothing much happens. the incident is not huge. perhaps, jughead seals the EM energy the drill stops, they bring juliette out of the well thingy, she has her dying swan song ( sad) and a proper goodbye, yada yada. but now, the losties cannot figure out hoe to get back to the proper time. and they stay there, on the island, and live in the temple, just like the spoilers from end of last season said.

and, when jacob says they are coming, he means them from the temple, the losties are the others. and, the reason the dead characters are coming back is because they will show the 815 crash from the temple losties perspective. and, maybe if you get stuck on island time when in other time you are dead, you do not age. and thats what happened to richard. i bet this story unfolds through him. i bet he and his people from the black rock went through some hariy stuff on the island too.

the only thing is, the comi con commercials make no sense with this.

[notsolost42]

I love how you put all that together Rachelskid! Great job! BTW, I am the culpret that has said since the beginning that Christian is alive because the plane crashed before he died. The only difference between that and John Locke is that Locke appeared at the beechcraft before he died and via a time shift on the island. So, I'm not 100% sure of the Christian theory now. It is a big difference.

Yes! According to Lostpedia, the Ajira flight left in 2008 and yes, it was 2007 when they landed. That was proven by exactly what you said. The dates 1977 and the "thirty years later" on the screen. Crazy, huh?

I was freaked when I realized there were three Locke's on the island simultaneously. I like your ideas about the losties being at the temple and that they are the ones coming to the rescue.

The comic con commercials are not canon that I am aware of. I think it is TPTB messing with the fans and sending them on a wild goose chase forcing them to think that there is going to be an island/crash reboot. They so love to toy with the fans. Give me more feedback if you have any. I think the whole alien thing is a big, fat red herring too. Just like most info we get in the games.

[rachelskid]

i did not know it was cannon that 316 went back in time one year. thats crazy.

so, NOW locke is like christian. Flocke is like christian. not when they traveled to the outrigger. dollars to donuts locke will be just as freaked to see his own body when he comes out of the four toes. He still thinks he is locke. he is still locke.

I meant the idea that you can be in the same place twice, or really in different places at once. I was just reading an article about a famous scientist (who of course i don;t know or remember his name) but he is theorizing the following: neorons and protons can be in two places at once, and if they make up the atom, and we are made of atoms, why can't we be in two places at once? he says he thinks it is because of gravity (not exactley sure how so.) But, gravity is effected by EM energy, correct? so, perhaps the EM energy on the island makes tiem travel possible, because it makes it possible for one body to be in two places at once. and even when locke and them are on the island flashing to a time when they are one the island - meaning even if kate stood staring at kate, thats still two places at once.

but, see, how the EM energey got there is still up in the air...it could be a crashed craft, from another planet.

even if the comi con commercials aren't cannon, i don;t think they can be ignored. certainly last year there was no farady making a video with chang, but they intended to do that, but ran out of time. regardless, the main point was time travel. they have never officially done anything that was then completely ignored.

and, this damoncarltonandapolarbear.com is an arg, and its taking off. its looking pretty wild so far.

[notsolost42]

Canon because of the dates shown on the episode...1977 and "thrity years later." So, yeah Ajira went back in time when it landed. Where the exotic matter came from may or may not be explained. IDK, but they did say we have to accept that the island is what it is and they weren't going into any detail about it. Along time ago I posted that the exotic matter was from the warp engines of a spacecraft, the smoke monster was the security system on the craft and that Jacob was what was left of the ships main computer. Ha! Waaay off!

[notsolost42]

I think I figured something out about Jacob's cabin. Okay, here goes.

I think that the Swan station and entering the numbers kept the island from moving freely through spacetime. It "teathered" it, if you will. Well, while the island was teathered, Jacob's cabin was moving through spacetime. That is why it was seen on different places on the island. I think Jacob was a prisoner in the cabin while it was moving. That seems to be the purpose of the ash. So, when the Swan imploded the island was freed again and was drifting in spacetime. After the Swan, Jacob's cabin was empty and he was freed. The last visit to the cabin when Jacob occupied it was before the Swan was destroyed. After that, the cabin was occupied by Christian and Claire, last we saw. And when Ilana and Bram found it, the ash circle was broken and the cabin was empty. Ilana remarked that Jacob had not been there for a long time and she found the piece of tapastry, which led them to the statue where Jacob was now.

[notsolost42]

I just wanted to mention one other point that I had read and thought was kind of interesting. Only the four people that John Locke visited off island flashed off of the Ajira flight. He never went to visit Sun and it was Ben that visited him instead. And those are the people that wound up in 2007 not 1977.

So, John Locke was trying to carry out deadLocke's (Nemesis') plans of bringing them back to the island and that he would have to die, as told to him at the beechcraft by Richard. Ben carried out the last part of deadLocke's plan by killing John Locke, which seems to be what enabled deadLocke to emerge. John's visits to Jack, Kate, Sayid and Hurley were like when Jacob visited them as children and touched them, with the exception of Hurley. But John's visits may have had something to do with them flashing off Ajira into 1977. So, carrying out what deadLocke (Nemesis) told him to do may have been to place them there intentionally to change what happens with the bomb.

One thing though, it seems that Hurley was the only one visited by both Jacob and Locke and asked to go back to the island. Also, Hurley was the only person who saw Jacob's cabin without the circle of ash. I have no idea what that means yet but it means something. So, both sides wanted Hurley but deadLocke's side has him. Maybe Jacob knew that he would wind up in 1977 and that's why he gave him the guitar case.

[Desi420]

I was just reading Lostpedia about the time flashes that happened after Ben turned the wheel. It occured to me that in 2007 John Locke was on the island in three forms. That is to say, there were three John Locke's on the island in 2007 simultaneously.

There was deadLocke on the beach, dead Locke in the box, and John Locke at the beechcraft. This was all in 2007. That was the scene when deadLocke told Richard the message he had to give John Locke at the beechcraft as well as to give him the compass.

It is John Locke in his past, present and future simultaneously. The future is dead Locke in the box who dies in 2008. According to Lostpedia, John Locke died on January 18, 2008. The present is deadLocke on the beach, who is Nemesis. The past is John Locke at the beechcraft who time shifted to 2007 when Ben turned the wheel. The Locke at the beechcraft was in 2007 as was the dead Locke in the box and the deadLocke on the beach. This is screaming time loop to me just like the compass, which is a canon time loop.

This is also very interesting because it shows that the Ajira flight 316 landed on the island at a different time than it took off. The Ajira flight left LA after January 18, 2008. The flight must have been about 1 or 2 weeks after Locke's death based on Jack reading the death notice of Jeremy Bentham, the funeral home viewing, Jack and Ben hooking up, the storage of Locke's body at the butcher shop and finally the body being boarded on the plane. Just a guesstimate here based on all of the events that occured. So, if the plane left sometime at the end of January 2008 and landed in 2007 then the island time is certainly different from the real world. This proves to me that when Oceanic 815 crashed on the island, the island certainly did not have to be in 2004. Just because the plane left Austrailia in 2004 and the freighter that was sent to the island had a calendar showing 2004 does not mean that everything the losties went through on the island were in 2004. Not at all.

This means that Jacob and Nemesis were no doubt lurking about on the island. We saw a "ghostly looking" Jacob in the cabin who spoke to Locke but no sign of Nemesis, unless he was always John Locke as I said in my original post and maybe that's why he spoke to him. When Jacob said "Help me" to Locke (Nemesis) he may have been moving through time while imprisoned in the cabin, just as the cabin was moving. He appeared to be in old looking clothing similar to what Richard was wearing the first time he met young Ben in the jungle and the costumes that Tom and the Others wore. Maybe Jacob knew John Locke was Nemesis and was asking for his help to be released. We know that the circle of ash was broken in 2007 and Jacob was gone from the cabin. He had been released. He was now in the statue. All we know for sure, per TPTB, is that Jacob never impersonated or manifested as anyone else on the island. I think the biggest part of the mystery is still Jacob. Who imprisoned him in the cabin and who released him? Richard or smokie come to mind first but I have no ideas as to how or why and can't offer any kind of theory about it. All that comes to mind is from room 23, "Only fools are enslaved in time and space."
Actually that makes a lot of sence. I'm rewatching the reruns of season one. The Locke centric episode where Locke and Boone are trying to open the hatch. Locke constructs this elaborate thing a majig. The arm came flying down to break the glass of the hatch but insted shatters itself and a chunk embeds itself in lockes right leg. Boone freaks and looks at him as he pulls out the large piece of shrapnel. Boone asks if it hurts. Locke tells him no, very concerned about the turn of events. Then he has the dream of the beechcraft flying over head. (I think the same scene from when the flashes began) along with this he sees Boone's pending doom. The next day he calls out to Boone to come with him. While walking through the jungle, Boone notices he is limping on the other leg. Boone points it out and Locke blows off his comment with a hint of "mind your own business".
My thoughts on it is, there was more to Johns flashes then they let on. They had spent a whole day before flashing to when ever. I think flashing John had met up with Boone and told him to climb up the tree. As he laid there with a bloody leg.

In season 4 they established that the island was on a steady course in time. As per Ms. Hawkins explanation why no one can find the island.

I must say Notso, you made a believer out of me. I think there are more Lockes on the island at the same time. Explains his mood swings.
The night scene after he finds the Sawyullet crew and Sawyer asks him why doesn't he stop himself from opening the hatch. John looks as if he contimplates it for a bit before his speach about the pain that got him there.
Great theory, fun to toy with

[notsolost42]

Actually that makes a lot of sence. I'm rewatching the reruns of season one. The Locke centric episode where Locke and Boone are trying to open the hatch. Locke constructs this elaborate thing a majig. The arm came flying down to break the glass of the hatch but insted shatters itself and a chunk embeds itself in lockes right leg. Boone freaks and looks at him as he pulls out the large piece of shrapnel. Boone asks if it hurts. Locke tells him no, very concerned about the turn of events. Then he has the dream of the beechcraft flying over head. (I think the same scene from when the flashes began) along with this he sees Boone's pending doom. The next day he calls out to Boone to come with him. While walking through the jungle, Boone notices he is limping on the other leg. Boone points it out and Locke blows off his comment with a hint of "mind your own business".
My thoughts on it is, there was more to Johns flashes then they let on. They had spent a whole day before flashing to when ever. I think flashing John had met up with Boone and told him to climb up the tree. As he laid there with a bloody leg.

In season 4 they established that the island was on a steady course in time. As per Ms. Hawkins explanation why no one can find the island.

I must say Notso, you made a believer out of me. I think there are more Lockes on the island at the same time. Explains his mood swings.
The night scene after he finds the Sawyullet crew and Sawyer asks him why doesn't he stop himself from opening the hatch. John looks as if he contimplates it for a bit before his speach about the pain that got him there.
Great theory, fun to toy with

Funny but that wasn't the scene I meant when I said Locke was flashing, however it reminded me of something else in that scene. Isn't that the episode where Locke sticks his leg and foot with a sharp stick and feels nothing? His legs are numb. He has no feeling in them. Just like if he were paralyzed yet he walks. Another reason I think that Locke is Nemesis all along. I believe he even puts his foot to the fire and it doesn't even burn, no less that he doesn't feel the flame.

[Desi420]

Funny but that wasn't the scene I meant when I said Locke was flashing, however it reminded me of something else in that scene. Isn't that the episode where Locke sticks his leg and foot with a sharp stick and feels nothing? His legs are numb. He has no feeling in them. Just like if he were paralyzed yet he walks. Another reason I think that Locke is Nemesis all along. I believe he even puts his foot to the fire and it doesn't even burn, no less that he doesn't feel the flame.
Or the episode after with the raft, he touches Walt with the same motion that Jacob touched our 77 buddies. Walt gets a chill and runs from him. That night he tells his father that he set the first raft on fire cause he didn't want to leave. Michael sez that they don't have to go, but Walt sez they have to. Its because that was the action that set things in motion. Locke thought it was the hatch, but its the raft out 2 and 2 together

[losttime]

I just wanted to mention one other point that I had read and thought was kind of interesting. Only the four people that John Locke visited off island flashed off of the Ajira flight. He never went to visit Sun and it was Ben that visited him instead. And those are the people that wound up in 2007 not 1977.

So, John Locke was trying to carry out deadLocke's (Nemesis') plans of bringing them back to the island and that he would have to die, as told to him at the beechcraft by Richard. Ben carried out the last part of deadLocke's plan by killing John Locke, which seems to be what enabled deadLocke to emerge. John's visits to Jack, Kate, Sayid and Hurley were like when Jacob visited them as children and touched them, with the exception of Hurley. But John's visits may have had something to do with them flashing off Ajira into 1977. So, carrying out what deadLocke (Nemesis) told him to do may have been to place them there intentionally to change what happens with the bomb.

One thing though, it seems that Hurley was the only one visited by both Jacob and Locke and asked to go back to the island. Also, Hurley was the only person who saw Jacob's cabin without the circle of ash. I have no idea what that means yet but it means something. So, both sides wanted Hurley but deadLocke's side has him. Maybe Jacob knew that he would wind up in 1977 and that's why he gave him the guitar case.

Why would he have to go visit Ben anyway? He was not one of the O6. No explanation why Sun wasnt visited by JL. But Hurley was not the only one visited by both JL and Jacob. Sayid was as well. Just because Hurley didnt see the circle of ash doesnt mean it wasnt there. I love to believe you but can you prove there was no circle of ash surrunding the cabin?
You refer to JL being on the Island as 3 in 2007. One was a flashback and was only for a brief peiod of time, one was not actually JL but someone pretending to be him and of course the corpse of JL that was in the box.
I dont know why you use the example of Christian landing on the Island before he died offthe Island as the explanation for why he is alive now. If that was the case and you ae correct about the plane landing on the Island a yr before it took off for Guam than JL should be alive and no corpse for the same reason. This goes contrary to everything about the show. Miles explained it as this was their present. Just because they flashed to a different time does not make any difference. Based on what you are saying that since Christian arrived on the Island before he died off he Island than the Losties should be going back in time and look as kids or babies when they flashed to 1977. Obviously that didnt happen. The fact that they are in a different time chronologically has no effect on what they should or shouldnt look like. Its their present. Another example is the Dr that waas killed on the freighter. He appeared to end up on the Island before his throat was ever slit. If it was before he died than he shouldnt have been dead when he got there based on your theory. Chistian is dead, JL is dead. The only time we see more than one of each on the Island t the same time is when they skipped through time. When JL left the Island when he turned the wheel, there was no more JL's on the Island, not until he came back in the coffin. The JL we see walking around is not JL but a fake and the real JL which is laying dead on the beach the last we saw him.

[rachelskid]

losttime i think you are missing the point. for example, when the losties are in 1977, somewhere out there they are children in the world too. thereby able to be in two places at once. so, if locke died in 2008 (forget year, it could be a matter of a month of weeks) and then landed on the island in 2007, it could explain why there are two locke bodies on the island at the same time. one alive from 2007, one dead from 2008. one body made up of atoms in two places at once.

but, think about this. if ajira left in 2008 and landed on island in 2007, then jacob was stabbed and killed in 2007, but appeared to hurley in the taxi in 2008?? after his death?? is this an implication that he survived the stabbing, or that he was future traveling?

[notsolost42]

losttime i think you are missing the point. for example, when the losties are in 1977, somewhere out there they are children in the world too. thereby able to be in two places at once. so, if locke died in 2008 (forget year, it could be a matter of a month of weeks) and then landed on the island in 2007, it could explain why there are two locke bodies on the island at the same time. one alive from 2007, one dead from 2008. one body made up of atoms in two places at once.

but, think about this. if ajira left in 2008 and landed on island in 2007, then jacob was stabbed and killed in 2007, but appeared to hurley in the taxi in 2008?? after his death?? is this an implication that he survived the stabbing, or that he was future traveling?

Nice point! Hmmmm. That is something to thiink about....

[notsolost42]

I was posting about Horace on another thread and went to Lostpedia to read about him again. I found something that I thought was interesting and may pertain to my theory about John Locke always being Nemesis. Here's what it said:

"Approximately 12 years later, Horace appeared to Locke in a dream. Locke observed Horace in a repetitive cycle, chopping down a tree over and over, and occasionally wiping blood from a nosebleed which appeared and disappeared. Horace said he was building a cabin for himself and "the missus" (possibly Olivia or Amy). Horace told Locke that he (Horace) had been dead for 12 years, that Jacob had been waiting a long time for Locke, and that in order to find Jacob, Locke must first find Horace himself. Locke went to the mass grave for the DHARMA Initiative, and in the front shirt pocket on Horace's corpse, he found the blueprints for Jacob's cabin, also containing a map of its location."

So, the obvious thing that stands out is how it was said that Jacob had been waiting for Locke for a long time. I think that Jacob knew that Nemesis found his loophole he would be waiting for him. That makes so much sense, especially since he wasn't very surprised when deadLocke showed up at the statue in 2007. The next thing is that Horace is the one that led Locke to Jacob's cabin because of his map. Interestingly, Jacob was not there but Christian was and said he could speak for Jacob. That was when Locke was told to move the island, which, if Locke had done himself the first time he would have been in Tunisia and not on the island to kill Jacob. I see it as a type of defensive play by Jacob to trick Nemesis off the island.

So, if we are figuring out "teams" or sides in an upcoming war then Horace is on Jacob's side as is Christian and Claire and I would assume Jack and Grandpa Ray. There could very well be a strong connection of the Shephard's to Jacob. Sorry to digress a bit. The point is that Jacob was expecting John Locke and to me that means that he knew Locke was Nemesis.

[notsolost42]

Wow, it's good to be back! Now I can remember what I was writing because I have more examples....

Okay, season one, epi where Jack first finds caves (not Adam and Eve) and the water. John Locke told people on the beach that he knew where there was water before Jack found it. He also seemed to know that Jack was going to fall off that cliff and cling on for dear life and was right there to rescue him. Hmmmm, why?

I am watching from the beginning again with the thought in mind that JL is the nemesis right from the get go. It is an interesting perspective and changes everything but it still all seems to fit.

[losttime]

losttime i think you are missing the point. for example, when the losties are in 1977, somewhere out there they are children in the world too. thereby able to be in two places at once. so, if locke died in 2008 (forget year, it could be a matter of a month of weeks) and then landed on the island in 2007, it could explain why there are two locke bodies on the island at the same time. one alive from 2007, one dead from 2008. one body made up of atoms in two places at once.

but, think about this. if ajira left in 2008 and landed on island in 2007, then jacob was stabbed and killed in 2007, but appeared to hurley in the taxi in 2008?? after his death?? is this an implication that he survived the stabbing, or that he was future traveling?

I see what you are saying but Notso is trying to say its plausible that the reason Chrsitan is alive is because he arrived on the Island the yr or whatever before he actually died. So if thats the case than why would JL have a corpse at all and just be alive because he arrives on the Isalnd in 2007 and he was killed in 2008 as far as I am recollecting. I dont believe Christian is alive at all. I watched the episode today where Jack sees Christian several times. The time where he is standing at the waters edge than in a blink of an eye disappears, Than walking through the jingle he doesnt see him on ne side of the tree but crosses behind the tree and he is instantly there? That sounds more like the smoke monster than a human ability. JL is dead and has been since Ben strangled him. I am not buying the whole Nemeisis since before landing on 316 or that Christian is alive as himself on the Isalnd. Until I am proven wrong next season I will stick with my feelings.

[notsolost42]

Except I am not talking about Christian here on this thread so if we can stick to the topic that would be great.

[losttime]

Except I am not talking about Christian here on this thread so if we can stick to the topic that would be great.

That would be fine. A heinous crime on my part. My deepest apologies.

[notsolost42]

I see you're just as sarcastic as ever there Losttime.

[losttime]

I see you're just as sarcastic as ever there Losttime.

I sure am Moderator Sir. But I am sure you have altered discussions on occasion if I am not mistaken here or there but because it was me you made it a point to say something. So you havent changed yourself. But the bottom line is you have not logical answer so its fine with me too. You take care.

[notsolost42]

Nah, never altered anything but a post containing curse words. Maybe it is your memory or something.

[losttime]

Nah, never altered anything but a post containing curse words. Maybe it is your memory or something.

Yea I guess I am not as smart as you. So I will let you go back to educating everyone.

[rachelskid]

I see what you are saying but Notso is trying to say its plausible that the reason Chrsitan is alive is because he arrived on the Island the yr or whatever before he actually died. So if thats the case than why would JL have a corpse at all and just be alive because he arrives on the Isalnd in 2007 and he was killed in 2008 as far as I am recollecting. I dont believe Christian is alive at all. I watched the episode today where Jack sees Christian several times. The time where he is standing at the waters edge than in a blink of an eye disappears, Than walking through the jingle he doesnt see him on ne side of the tree but crosses behind the tree and he is instantly there? That sounds more like the smoke monster than a human ability. JL is dead and has been since Ben strangled him. I am not buying the whole Nemeisis since before landing on 316 or that Christian is alive as himself on the Isalnd. Until I am proven wrong next season I will stick with my feelings.

now, now. back to your corners.

so, losttime, whats your theory, if any? I do think there is some anser that lies in the fact that the plane lands back in time, if only by a few months, a few weeks, a year. there is some answer there about the duplicate bodies and christian. i cannot fully explain it, but i do think there is something there.

[Desi420]

now, now. back to your corners.

so, losttime, whats your theory, if any? I do think there is some anser that lies in the fact that the plane lands back in time, if only by a few months, a few weeks, a year. there is some answer there about the duplicate bodies and christian. i cannot fully explain it, but i do think there is something there.
Funny how heated this becomes. This is a show that centered around a mystical character named Jacob all the way up to the end of season 5 then there is another one. A mystery guy. I,m just saying in a show where anything goes we don't need to rip each others head off cause the situation can change with a drop of a hat. It just takes one or 2 flashes and boom, whole new show

[losttime]

now, now. back to your corners.

so, losttime, whats your theory, if any? I do think there is some anser that lies in the fact that the plane lands back in time, if only by a few months, a few weeks, a year. there is some answer there about the duplicate bodies and christian. i cannot fully explain it, but i do think there is something there.

Interesting that Notso doesnt come down on you for talking about Christian which is not what ehr thread is about. But i will PM you if thts ok about what I believe is going on with Christian

[3d-aholic]

If everyone just goes to PM, theres no reason to have a forum.

[notsolost42]

*put out tray of cheese to go with all the whine*

[rachelskid]

If everyone just goes to PM, theres no reason to have a forum.

well if we don't PM how can we talk about you behind your back 3D? :D i kid.

we all just need to get along. the disagreement is all part of the process. with lost, the process is the best part. it is entirely possible that this show (god forbid) will have a terrible ending. we might have dark tower, BSG on our hands. i certainly hope not, but...so, let;s enjoy this very innocent time when we think ANYTHING is possible. and, after all, has not this week taught how awful it is without the forum??
no one has to agree with anyone else's idea, but no one is better than anyone else. just different. except me. i am actually better.
enough preaching.

[notsolost42]

Okay, may I please take my thread back NOW????? It has been hijacked enough, thank you very much!!!!! lol!!!! JK
But really, lets not digress here too much by being thrown off couse by some disgruntled poster. Thanks.

[losttime]

Okay, may I please take my thread back NOW????? It has been hijacked enough, thank you very much!!!!! lol!!!! JK
But really, lets not digress here too much by being thrown off couse by some disgruntled poster. Thanks.

"Disgruntled poster." Thats because I dont agree with you and your theories? Typical response from Notso

[Desi420]

Interesting that Notso doesnt come down on you for talking about Christian which is not what ehr thread is about. But i will PM you if thts ok about what I believe is going on with Christian
PM me, I wanna know what you think. He is one guy I can't put my finger on.

[Desi420]

*put out tray of cheese to go with all the whine*
I watched the season 1 episode just before exodus. John Locke and Jack along with Kate and Hugo go out to the black rock for the first time to get dynamite to blow the hatch. After Arzt blows himself up during his safety lesson, John and Jack take the sticks out and place them carefully in a wet shirt. John jokes about operation, the game, asking a surgeon if he ever played it. As he lifts the stick carefully, he makes a mock buzzing sound and scares jack for a minute. Jack then asks him if he likes games, John looks at him with a look as he says in a straight tone, yes, yes I do.
Since talking about your theroy, it begins to make sence

[notsolost42]

I watched the season 1 episode just before exodus. John Locke and Jack along with Kate and Hugo go out to the black rock for the first time to get dynamite to blow the hatch. After Arzt blows himself up during his safety lesson, John and Jack take the sticks out and place them carefully in a wet shirt. John jokes about operation, the game, asking a surgeon if he ever played it. As he lifts the stick carefully, he makes a mock buzzing sound and scares jack for a minute. Jack then asks him if he likes games, John looks at him with a look as he says in a straight tone, yes, yes I do.
Since talking about your theroy, it begins to make sence

Thanks Desi, that's a nice addition to all of the little anecdotal clues that show John Locke was always the man in the black shirt! Thanks for the great example!

[notsolost42]

Yet another John Locke example:

Last night I rewatched the season 1 epi where Boone is drugged by Locke and has a trippy dream about Shannon being pursued and killed by smokie. I was trying to pay very close attention to the dialogue. Well, John Locke is sitting there with Boone contemplating how to open the hatch. John is stirring a bowl of goop, which turns out to be what he drugs Boone with. Boone asked him what he was doing and Locke replied, "I need this for later." I thought that was an unusual thing to say and it pointed to two possible reasons that I could think of for saying it. Either this is a time loop, which is entirely possible and can be happening concurrently with other theories, or Locke, aka the man in the black shirt, already had a plan to "fix" Boone. Locke even tells Boone, at the end of the epi, that he had to be "fixed" and it was very similar to how he attempted to "fix" Charlie as well. Locke was fixing Boone and his attachment to Shannon as he thought it was wrong. Sound like the man in the black shirt and his convo with Jacob on the beach? It did to me. Oh, and one more thing. This epi was the one with that amazing scene on the beach with Locke and Jack that began with Jack asking if he saw any ships yet....very cool and very similar to the beach scene with Jacob and the man in the black shirt.

[losttime]

Yet another John Locke example:

Last night I rewatched the season 1 epi where Boone is drugged by Locke and has a trippy dream about Shannon being pursued and killed by smokie. I was trying to pay very close attention to the dialogue. Well, John Locke is sitting there with Boone contemplating how to open the hatch. John is stirring a bowl of goop, which turns out to be what he drugs Boone with. Boone asked him what he was doing and Locke replied, "I need this for later." I thought that was an unusual thing to say and it pointed to two possible reasons that I could think of for saying it. Either this is a time loop, which is entirely possible and can be happening concurrently with other theories, or Locke, aka the man in the black shirt, already had a plan to "fix" Boone. Locke even tells Boone, at the end of the epi, that he had to be "fixed" and it was very similar to how he attempted to "fix" Charlie as well. Locke was fixing Boone and his attachment to Shannon as he thought it was wrong. Sound like the man in the black shirt and his convo with Jacob on the beach? It did to me. Oh, and one more thing. This epi was the one with that amazing scene on the beach with Locke and Jack that began with Jack asking if he saw any ships yet....very cool and very similar to the beach scene with Jacob and the man in the black shirt.

The fact that JL said that what he was mixing was for later was for what he had planned for Boone shortly. To me there was nothing unusual about what JL said. He prepared the goop, than when it was time to whack Boone in the head because he already saw how boone was behaving because of Shannon he applied it as he intended to when he was making the goop. This is a completely different example from Charlie. With Charlie he let Charlie attempt to fix himself by telling him he wil llet him ask 3 times for the drugs and also used the illustration of the moth in the cocoon and not helping it out because it wouldnt survive because it wouldnt be stronfg enough. This case JL was trying to get Charlie to fix himself,(eventually JL didnt give him a choice) but in Boones case he went right to putting him in a position that he was going to fix him right there.
Locke also commented earliy on in the show(not this episode) when they arrived to the Island that they are given a new life there that they are all given a second chance to make for themselves a place on the Island, or something along those lines. Jl talkes about destiny and that jack not supposed to leave and they are all supposed to stay and that this Island is special. This doesnt sound like something Beachboy would say but Jacob. Beachboy didnt want anyone there because they "come destroy corrupt" yada yada.
Also the theories of alternate timelines can be disputed based on what Faraday said about time being like a street.(S5E1) You can go forwards and backwards but you cant create new streets(differnt timelines). This is at least how I am interpretting what he is trying to say there. To me there is one timeline(street) and on just differnet blocks or the same block on that street at the same time when time skipping. Sorry Notso. I know I always disagree but I see it completely differently from you. I am just explaining how I see it happening.

[notsolost42]

The fact that JL said that what he was mixing was for later was for what he had planned for Boone shortly. To me there was nothing unusual about what JL said. He prepared the goop, than when it was time to whack Boone in the head because he already saw how boone was behaving because of Shannon he applied it as he intended to when he was making the goop. This is a completely different example from Charlie. With Charlie he let Charlie attempt to fix himself by telling him he wil llet him ask 3 times for the drugs and also used the illustration of the moth in the cocoon and not helping it out because it wouldnt survive because it wouldnt be stronfg enough. This case JL was trying to get Charlie to fix himself,(eventually JL didnt give him a choice) but in Boones case he went right to putting him in a position that he was going to fix him right there.
Locke also commented earliy on in the show(not this episode) when they arrived to the Island that they are given a new life there that they are all given a second chance to make for themselves a place on the Island, or something along those lines. Jl talkes about destiny and that jack not supposed to leave and they are all supposed to stay and that this Island is special. This doesnt sound like something Beachboy would say but Jacob. Beachboy didnt want anyone there because they "come destroy corrupt" yada yada.
Also the theories of alternate timelines can be disputed based on what Faraday said about time being like a street.(S5E1) You can go forwards and backwards but you cant create new streets(differnt timelines). This is at least how I am interpretting what he is trying to say there. To me there is one timeline(street) and on just differnet blocks or the same block on that street at the same time when time skipping. Sorry Notso. I know I always disagree but I see it completely differently from you. I am just explaining how I see it happening.

A complete contradiction of yourself. If time is like a street and is a straight line then how do you make the leap to different blocks? Also, it has been established by TPTB that there are two timelines already and they will merge next season so why do you still insist there is only one? Yes, we do disagree completely.

[losttime]

A complete contradiction of yourself. If time is like a street and is a straight line then how do you make the leap to different blocks? Also, it has been established by TPTB that there are two timelines already and they will merge next season so why do you still insist there is only one? Yes, we do disagree completely.

OK i was looking at it from the standpoint of a street in NYC that goes on for several miles like 5th ave. there are several blocks that cross that street but for the sake of your wanting to show me I am wrong ok i will dwindle it down to one block. So some of the Losties can be at one address on the street while the time skip they can go back or forward to aanother address on that same street. is that better? So lets say the first address on that street is 1 and the last is 100 they can skip anywhere along that street forwards and backwards. yes two timelines on the same block. Those who are in '74 are moving ahead on the block at lets say address 5 and those in 2007 are further ahead on that block at a higher address. So two timelines at the same time but along the same street. Not two different streets as i was trying to explain on my last thread that coincided with what Faraday said. So thats why I still insist. So at some point those who are at the address equivalent to 77 time will eventually join those at an address equivalent to those in 2007, most likely. Is that better?
Nothing to address with what i said about JL and Boone or Charlie?

[notsolost42]

OK i was looking at it from the standpoint of a street in NYC that goes on for several miles like 5th ave. there are several blocks that cross that street but for the sake of your wanting to show me I am wrong ok i will dwindle it down to one block. So some of the Losties can be at one address on the street while the time skip they can go back or forward to aanother address on that same street. is that better? So lets say the first address on that street is 1 and the last is 100 they can skip anywhere along that street forwards and backwards. yes two timelines on the same block. Those who are in '74 are moving ahead on the block at lets say address 5 and those in 2007 are further ahead on that block at a higher address. So two timelines at the same time but along the same street. Not two different streets as i was trying to explain on my last thread that coincided with what Faraday said. So thats why I still insist. So at some point those who are at the address equivalent to 77 time will eventually join those at an address equivalent to those in 2007, most likely. Is that better?
Nothing to address with what i said about JL and Boone or Charlie?
Well, about Charlie and Boone and your comments, I have to completely disagree with you. That is my opinion and I am not looking for another arguement out of you. If you disagree with me, fine, but I have my own thoughts and theories and they are quite different from yours. Obviously.

[losttime]

Well, about Charlie and Boone and your comments, I have to completely disagree with you. That is my opinion and I am not looking for another arguement out of you. If you disagree with me, fine, but I have my own thoughts and theories and they are quite different from yours. Obviously.

I am sure I clarified the "street" issue for you. I know it was very contradictory lol For now on I think its best we just dont comment on each others thoughts.

[notsolost42]

I am sure I clarified the "street" issue for you. I know it was very contradictory lol For now on I think its best we just dont comment on each others thoughts.

Well, first of all, I don't need your clarification on anything, but thanks anyway. And second, we actually agree on the comments or lack there of.

[losttime]

Well, first of all, I don't need your clarification on anything, but thanks anyway. And second, we actually agree on the comments or lack there of.

Well you obviously did ned the clarification because you wanted to tell me I was contradicting myself so I made it easier for you to understand. And since you talk about clarification. you might want to look up Progeria. its not ageing backwards its rapid ageing
http://www.ehow.com/how_4742503_understand-progeria-rapid-aging-syndrome.html
But than again i might just be misunderstanding what you are trying to say. You were the Physicians Assistant i am just an RN. You take care MOD

[notsolost42]

Well you obviously did ned the clarification because you wanted to tell me I was contradicting myself so I made it easier for you to understand. And since you talk about clarification. you might want to look up Progeria. its not ageing backwards its rapid ageing
http://www.ehow.com/how_4742503_understand-progeria-rapid-aging-syndrome.html
But than again i might just be misunderstanding what you are trying to say. You were the Physicians Assistant i am just an RN. You take care MOD

And yet, you are still here....

[notsolost42]

Another scene that knowing what we know now implies that John Locke was always Nemesis or man in the black shirt since day one. I am not sure of the name of the episode but it is the one where Sawyer is pursued by the boar with the background story about Sawyer's past and the man he shot.

In the scene where Sawyer faces down the boar and it gets away, suddenly guess who appears out of nowhere? John Locke. And Locke tells Sawyer a story about his past. He tells him the story of when his foster sister died and the big dog, in fact I think he said "golden retriever" that was a stray suddenly showed up and stayed until his foster mother died and then left. What was interesting was that Locke just happened to appear after the boar left. Impecible timing once again and had this interesting story that was relative to a situation he knew very little about.

I do not think that Nemesis is the smoke monster, although I will not rule it out completely. I prefer to wait to get something more concrete. That's not to say they aren't working together in some way though. We have yet to get enough info in my opinion one way or the other.

[jd95]

Okay, so lets just put all the possibilites out on the table.

1) Locke was Nemesis from birth
2) Locke became Nemesis the first time he met Smokey (S1, E4)
3) After Locke was killed

There is evidence for all 3, but I think the "obvious" answer is 3, that Nem sort of possessed Locke's body after JL died. I say this is obvious because this is what the show seems to want us to believe (which, of course, could be a curve ball).

As for 2, there is something to be said here as well. It seemed to be after this meeting that JL was a changed man. He saw into the eye of the island, and believed there was a purpose for everything. It's as if he was speaking directly to the island. We dont know exactly what happened at this point, but it was definitely a crucial moment. Also remember that later on, while returning from the Black Rock, when Smokey appeared again Locke actually walked towards the monster, perhaps thinking that there was a level of trust between them. Locke knew he would be okay when he was almost dragged into the hole, because of whatever happened at that first meeting. But keep in mind that when the monster was coming at John after he was knocked off his feet, Locke was afraid. This moment was conveyed very clearly. So, I don't think this possibility is very likely at all.

3) We have some vague evidence from a young child's drawing that he might have been Nemesis from birth. This very well might be the same curve ball mentioned above as it would probably be the most shocking to us viewers, but I would'nt like this to be true myself. And it's seems obvious that JL was JL always, except maybe he had the essence of Nemesis in him, and when he got to the island it all came out.

There may be other possibilities, but seeing how this thread seems to be spinning somewhat out of control I think it would benefit to focus on the main possibilities here.

[jd95]

As far as the people like Christian and Yemi go, I think this is going to wind up being a case of Schroedinger's Cat (one of my favorite avatars here, btw), where a being can be both alive and dead at the same time. Given the science backbone of this show, I think this will be the way it goes.

[losttime]

As far as the people like Christian and Yemi go, I think this is going to wind up being a case of Schroedinger's Cat (one of my favorite avatars here, btw), where a being can be both alive and dead at the same time. Given the science backbone of this show, I think this will be the way it goes.

Well to me that would be the lamest of outcomes. We already know the Smoke Monster can take on the appearance and the memories of someone so what makes you think Christian and Yemi are themselves o nthe Island. It seems that everyone that has died and we see again has a certain way about them not congruent with the way they were before they died. Even when Boone appeared to JL, he was sarcastic and behaving in a way not wha twe would picture to be like Boone.

Christian standing in the water just staring at jack and no one else sees him is normal and what a human can do? Yemi can just appear and than never to be seen again after Eko is killed by the Smoke Monster? Christian and Yemi are dead and it was not them we were seeing. Dead is Dead. Its either accepted by the viewer or it isnt. It took me to the Finale to recognize this, but i did

[losttime]

Okay, so lets just put all the possibilites out on the table.

1) Locke was Nemesis from birth
2) Locke became Nemesis the first time he met Smokey (S1, E4)
3) After Locke was killed

There is evidence for all 3, but I think the "obvious" answer is 3, that Nem sort of possessed Locke's body after JL died. I say this is obvious because this is what the show seems to want us to believe (which, of course, could be a curve ball).

As for 2, there is something to be said here as well. It seemed to be after this meeting that JL was a changed man. He saw into the eye of the island, and believed there was a purpose for everything. It's as if he was speaking directly to the island. We dont know exactly what happened at this point, but it was definitely a crucial moment. Also remember that later on, while returning from the Black Rock, when Smokey appeared again Locke actually walked towards the monster, perhaps thinking that there was a level of trust between them. Locke knew he would be okay when he was almost dragged into the hole, because of whatever happened at that first meeting. But keep in mind that when the monster was coming at John after he was knocked off his feet, Locke was afraid. This moment was conveyed very clearly. So, I don't think this possibility is very likely at all.

3) We have some vague evidence from a young child's drawing that he might have been Nemesis from birth. This very well might be the same curve ball mentioned above as it would probably be the most shocking to us viewers, but I would'nt like this to be true myself. And it's seems obvious that JL was JL always, except maybe he had the essence of Nemesis in him, and when he got to the island it all came out.

There may be other possibilities, but seeing how this thread seems to be spinning somewhat out of control I think it would benefit to focus on the main possibilities here.

From what I am seeing on this show the fact that JL has been able to know things or sense things prior to being killed by Ben does not necessarily mean that JL was Nemesis the whole time. If thats the case, why didnt nemesis just make it so JL did die from a certain point on the Island so he can just take over his body fully than instead of making him go back to the world and gather everyone back. Why didnt he just do it before they all left and have Ben think he was done as the leader and he could have done the same thing he did after flt 316 came back and just have done it earlier hand. he could have still talked ben into killing Jacob. Being banished would have been the one thing he left out, but he could still have used the fact that he got cancer, never got to see Jacob and his daughter was killed. That was enough motivation for Ben. So what I believe and am not convinced otherwise is that, JL was led along by Nemesis on and off the Island and once he was killed by ben, than he was able to become JL so to speak. If he was Nemesis sinec birth, why didnt jacob recognize it when he touched him but only when he came to the Statue to have Ben kill him? Why didnt RA notice anything different about him in all those visits o him off the Island but only when he came back after 316? The answer is simple. Jl was not Nemesis since birth but guided and influenced by Nemesis. If this can be explained with logical rationales why these instances went unoticed by RA and Jacob prior to JL being killed by Ben, than i will be inclined to think otherwise, but the fact that this isnt so, I am only convinced that JL was influenced to be able to think and see things like showing up at a "coincidnetal time" and so forth. For that matter, what about Hurley who saw the Cabin? Also JL going to the Cabin. If Christian was working for Jacob, he didnt notivce it either but even more importantly, if Christian is workig for the MiB or is the MiB than why the heck would he be having a conversation with himself about what needs to be done.

[notsolost42]

Okay, so lets just put all the possibilites out on the table.

1) Locke was Nemesis from birth
2) Locke became Nemesis the first time he met Smokey (S1, E4)
3) After Locke was killed

There is evidence for all 3, but I think the "obvious" answer is 3, that Nem sort of possessed Locke's body after JL died. I say this is obvious because this is what the show seems to want us to believe (which, of course, could be a curve ball).

As for 2, there is something to be said here as well. It seemed to be after this meeting that JL was a changed man. He saw into the eye of the island, and believed there was a purpose for everything. It's as if he was speaking directly to the island. We dont know exactly what happened at this point, but it was definitely a crucial moment. Also remember that later on, while returning from the Black Rock, when Smokey appeared again Locke actually walked towards the monster, perhaps thinking that there was a level of trust between them. Locke knew he would be okay when he was almost dragged into the hole, because of whatever happened at that first meeting. But keep in mind that when the monster was coming at John after he was knocked off his feet, Locke was afraid. This moment was conveyed very clearly. So, I don't think this possibility is very likely at all.

3) We have some vague evidence from a young child's drawing that he might have been Nemesis from birth. This very well might be the same curve ball mentioned above as it would probably be the most shocking to us viewers, but I would'nt like this to be true myself. And it's seems obvious that JL was JL always, except maybe he had the essence of Nemesis in him, and when he got to the island it all came out.

There may be other possibilities, but seeing how this thread seems to be spinning somewhat out of control I think it would benefit to focus on the main possibilities here.

Three good choices and I very much appreciate you wanting and helping to direct this thread back on track once again. I stand by my opinion that Locke has always been Nemesis from birth. I was thinking about his birth and had a question. We saw young Emily being struck by a car, which sent her to the hospital and prematurely deliver John. But, what still remains an unanswered question, and I believe an important one that may help to tell John Locke's real history, is who was driving that car? We do not know. It certainly seemed to be on purpose and not a pure accident or the car would not have sped off as it did, leaving a young, pregnant girl laying on the road.
The point you bring up about the drawings that young John made of smokie is a good one. To me, that also points to the fact that this John Locke is aware of a lot more than we know and I take that as a nod and wink by TPTB as to his real "essence."
Somehow, when this is all coming to a head, I have a sneaky suspicion that his mother, Emily, will play a large roll. I don't know why I think that and I offer no proof of anything. Just a gut feeling. Didn't she tell John he was special? Guess we'll see.

[jd95]

Three good choices and I very much appreciate you wanting and helping to direct this thread back on track once again. I stand by my opinion that Locke has always been Nemesis from birth. I was thinking about his birth and had a question. We saw young Emily being struck by a car, which sent her to the hospital and prematurely deliver John. But, what still remains an unanswered question, and I believe an important one that may help to tell John Locke's real history, is who was driving that car? We do not know. It certainly seemed to be on purpose and not a pure accident or the car would not have sped off as it did, leaving a young, pregnant girl laying on the road.
The point you bring up about the drawings that young John made of smokie is a good one. To me, that also points to the fact that this John Locke is aware of a lot more than we know and I take that as a nod and wink by TPTB as to his real "essence."
Somehow, when this is all coming to a head, I have a sneaky suspicion that his mother, Emily, will play a large roll. I don't know why I think that and I offer no proof of anything. Just a gut feeling. Didn't she tell John he was special? Guess we'll see.

I haven't really thought about who hit young Emily, but since you bring it up it may have been JL's father. We all know he is capable of just about anything and it's possible he wanted Emily out of the way. I'll re-watch that episode soon.

About Smokey: it seems awfully apparent that Smokey can only take the shape of those dead people who's bodies are actually on the island. It's strange that the bodies themselves usually disappear (Christian wasn't in the coffin, Yemi's body was gone from the plane), but Locke's body was still there while JL was alive and walking around.

[notsolost42]

I haven't really thought about who hit young Emily, but since you bring it up it may have been JL's father. We all know he is capable of just about anything and it's possible he wanted Emily out of the way. I'll re-watch that episode soon.

About Smokey: it seems awfully apparent that Smokey can only take the shape of those dead people who's bodies are actually on the island. It's strange that the bodies themselves usually disappear (Christian wasn't in the coffin, Yemi's body was gone from the plane), but Locke's body was still there while JL was alive and walking around.
Maybe not. It all depends on who or what Emily Linus was when she appeared to young Ben by the sonic fence. She was not on the island.

[3d-aholic]

When the show is over you will see that Locke was pulled back and forth from the Jacob side and the Mr. X side. Both sides tried to do the philosophical transformation on him. His decision to go from pushing the button to not pushing the button is one such example in the show of him switching sides. He was "VERY CONFLICTED".

JACK, on the other hand, was steady the entire show till the last season...now he is being pulled to the other side.

[losttime]

When the show is over you will see that Locke was pulled back and forth from the Jacob side and the Mr. X side. Both sides tried to do the philosophical transformation on him. His decision to go from pushing the button to not pushing the button is one such example in the show of him switching sides. He was "VERY CONFLICTED".

JACK, on the other hand, was steady the entire show till the last season...now he is being pulled to the other side.

Sounds good to me

[losttime]

Actually I was just kidding about that sounding good to me. I am still not sure why Jacob touched everyone he did but Ilana he made no physical contact with and in fact he was wearing gloves almost to make sure there was no contact. When jacob said "I am sorry this happened" he might be referring to something else. Almost like when Kate told Jack she had to go that "He will wonder where I am" we automatically thought she meant Sawyer. Well most did. So this can be just a misdirection as to what Jacob meant. We also saw that with his interaction with Jack when he said that all it" needed was a little push". I as most believe that was more than just an idol statement but foreshadowed something to happen.

[losttime]

After watching the S2 Finale I cant possibly think that JL was MIB the whole time prior to coming back on 316. If so MIB is one dumb person who was willing to destroy the Island that he wanted to keep people off of because they were doing that very thing, "corrupting" and "destroying". Am I to believe that MIB didnt know what would happen if that button wasnt pressed? JL never looked more confused in his life than that episode. Eko kicked him out of the hatch and he is crying like a baby, had no clue Desond was back on the Island until Charlie told him. From what I saw in the opening scene of S5 finale MIB was aware that the BR was coming. He rhetorically asked jacob how they found the Island and so Desmond is sailing around the Island and gets back but MIB(JL) is clueless to this?

[notsolost42]

The Beach Boy SAW the Black Rock in the distance and asked Jacob how they found the island, knowing fulll well the answer. No one said he has e.s.p. And, by the way, since when did he want to keep people off the island? That's news to me. For all we know, there have been several civilizations on the island that have come, corrupted and destroyed. We do know of at least one that existed there in the past. Someone had to have built the statue, tunnels, ancient ruins, etc. Of course he knew what would happen, that's the whole banter between Jacob and him. It's what they thrive on. Jacob has always been trying to prove him wrong and he has not been successful yet.

[boutte]

Okay, I'm glad that came out right then. So, does any of this make sense?

Yeah it does. While you're probably wrong somewhere in there I've always thought thay you are probably closer to the answer than anybody else I've seen anywhere on the net.

[losttime]

Since he told jacob that they are all the same "they come, destroy fight" so forth and so on. Doesnt sound like someone who wants people brought o the Island but keep them off it. Beach boy also is aware of the Islands uniqueness or wouldnt ask "how did they find the Island". That being said if JL was beachboy the whole time than why did he appear so confused as to the nature of the Swan Station and was fooled into believing nothing would happen if the numbers arent entered and button is pushed. He was there before the DI and knew what had happened at the Swan station. Why would he want to let the charge build up and possibly destroy everyone on the Island and the Island itself. Doesnt make much sense to me, if JL was always Beachboy. Why didnt jacob recognize him off the Island when he touched him after he fell out of the window but recognized him as his nemesis when the ywere in the statue?. If he was Beachboy why did he act so startled whe nhe heard "Help Me" and run out of the Cabin like a frightened kid when things stared flying around. Doesnt seem like the person we saw on the beach talking to Jacob. Just things that dont make sense to the identity of JL being beachboy before Ajira 316 thats all

[notsolost42]

Yeah it does. While you're probably wrong somewhere in there I've always thought thay you are probably closer to the answer than anybody else I've seen anywhere on the net.

{{{{HUGS}}}} Thanks Boutte, but I probably am wrong in alot of places along the way! I just enjoy a good mystery and I enjoy the challenge of figuring it out. I like to use my mind. Unlike some people that just put you down for trying. I say to heck with them!!!! Bwhahahahahaaaaaa!!!!!

[notsolost42]

Since he told jacob that they are all the same "they come, destroy fight" so forth and so on. Doesnt sound like someone who wants people brought o the Island but keep them off it. Beach boy also is aware of the Islands uniqueness or wouldnt ask "how did they find the Island". That being said if JL was beachboy the whole time than why did he appear so confused as to the nature of the Swan Station and was fooled into believing nothing would happen if the numbers arent entered and button is pushed. He was there before the DI and knew what had happened at the Swan station. Why would he want to let the charge build up and possibly destroy everyone on the Island and the Island itself. Doesnt make much sense to me, if JL was always Beachboy. Why didnt jacob recognize him off the Island when he touched him after he fell out of the window but recognized him as his nemesis when the ywere in the statue?. If he was Beachboy why did he act so startled whe nhe heard "Help Me" and run out of the Cabin like a frightened kid when things stared flying around. Doesnt seem like the person we saw on the beach talking to Jacob. Just things that dont make sense to the identity of JL being beachboy before Ajira 316 thats all

You seem to keep responding to things I post with your contradicting opinion all the time in every thread. I have said this before. The point is, I am not out to change your mind so do me a favor, quit trying to force your opinion on me. Make your own thread with your own thoughts...again. Thanks.:)

[losttime]

You seem to keep responding to things I post with your contradicting opinion all the time in every thread. I have said this before. The point is, I am not out to change your mind so do me a favor, quit trying to force your opinion on me. Make your own thread with your own thoughts...again. Thanks.:)

Oh I humbly apologize. i didnt know you owned this post and can decide who can post in it. The fact that i am briging up issues you dont agree with doesnt mean I am out to change you mind or forcing my opinion on you. Seriously Notso. You are completely out of line and if you have a problem with me posting in here thats unfortunate, because as long as i dont say anything as "attacking" "mean" or whatever else is a forum rule and just stating how I see JL, nemesis and Jacob, for EVERYONE to see not just you, than I have every right to be in here and discuss it and bring it up since this is the thread that discusses it.

[notsolost42]

Avekgeyn........

[losttime]

Avekgeyn........


HAHAHA Like I dont know what that means. I dont have to

[notsolost42]

HAHAHAHA!!! I bet you don't!!!!!

[losttime]

HAHAHAHA!!! I bet you don't!!!!!

HAHAHA yea I know yiddish and hebrew. Its my background.

[notsolost42]

HAHAHAHA!!!! Then you know I didn't say anything bad to you either!!!!!

[losttime]

HAHAHAHA!!!! Then you know I didn't say anything bad to you either!!!!!

Wasnt nice either. But please dont try to think what you know about me notso. I am not here trying to convince you of anything. I am simply bringing up things that make me think that JL wasnt always MIB just as you bring up points that make you think he is and was. I wasnt quoting you or anything and you are accusing me of trying to force my ideas on you. I am speaking to everyone here to explain my understanding and examples just as you are. You dont agree thats fine, but someone else might and just as I read your posts and everyone elses that agrees with you, I might see somethign i didnt notice before.

[wiley]

It's a good thing you two don't agree, cause then you would both be wrong.

[losttime]

It's a good thing you two don't agree, cause then you would both be wrong.

And that is because.....? Both of our theories is wrong?

[wiley]

And that is because.....? Both of our theories is wrong?

Oh I don't really know. Just a little levity.:)

[notsolost42]

Oh I don't really know. Just a little levity.:)

Thanks Wiley! :) It is definitely needed!!!!! So, what's your take on John Locke and MIB?

[wiley]

I Think MIB can impersonate a person (singular), a dead person as we have seen him do with Locke which seems to have been proven with Jacob's response in the foot.
If we then extrapolate a little beyond what we do know, then I believe MIB has impersonated others like Christian and Yemi.
I Think MIB didn't start to impersonate Locke until after 316 crash landed.
We have seen Christian and Locke together at the donkey wheel but not after 316 and I don't think we will.
We have not seen any two of the impersonated people together, like Christian and Locke at the hut with Sun, Frank and Ben. When Locke showed up, Christian was nowhere to be found. When Alex appeared to Ben under the temple, Locke was suspiciously absent.

We still don't have much information about MIB or Jacob to figure out who or what they really are yet. Whether they are two different beings or two halves of one, Omnipotent or mortal or brothers. Maybe dad has sent them to this island for a little game of life, or maybe their peers are punishing them.

[notsolost42]

I Think MIB can impersonate a person (singular), a dead person as we have seen him do with Locke which seems to have been proven with Jacob's response in the foot.
If we then extrapolate a little beyond what we do know, then I believe MIB has impersonated others like Christian and Yemi.
I Think MIB didn't start to impersonate Locke until after 316 crash landed.
We have seen Christian and Locke together at the donkey wheel but not after 316 and I don't think we will.
We have not seen any two of the impersonated people together, like Christian and Locke at the hut with Sun, Frank and Ben. When Locke showed up, Christian was nowhere to be found. When Alex appeared to Ben under the temple, Locke was suspiciously absent.

We still don't have much information about MIB or Jacob to figure out who or what they really are yet. Whether they are two different beings or two halves of one, Omnipotent or mortal or brothers. Maybe dad has sent them to this island for a little game of life, or maybe their peers are punishing them.

Yeah, I like the punishing part! I've thought about that also. Kind of a cosmic game and they are left fighting it out or arguing as the case may be. I don't know if they are two parts of the whole though because then you have to define why one part can live without the other part. I have thought that Jacob is actually the other half of smokie before or connected in some way. That was before we ever got to see the beach bum.

[Gogosteve]

Perhaps MiB is not the only entity that can take the form of other beings. Perhaps Jacob posseses the same powers. We are all viewing Jacob and his appearance as a constant physical presence but maybe Jacob and MiB have no physical form as such.

[losttime]

Perhaps MiB is not the only entity that can take the form of other beings. Perhaps Jacob posseses the same powers. We are all viewing Jacob and his appearance as a constant physical presence but maybe Jacob and MiB have no physical form as such.

Think others have thought that as well but I believe that TPTB clarified that issue at Comic-Con that Jacob has not taken on any iother forms

[losttime]

I Think MIB can impersonate a person (singular), a dead person as we have seen him do with Locke which seems to have been proven with Jacob's response in the foot.
If we then extrapolate a little beyond what we do know, then I believe MIB has impersonated others like Christian and Yemi.
I Think MIB didn't start to impersonate Locke until after 316 crash landed.
We have seen Christian and Locke together at the donkey wheel but not after 316 and I don't think we will.
We have not seen any two of the impersonated people together, like Christian and Locke at the hut with Sun, Frank and Ben. When Locke showed up, Christian was nowhere to be found. When Alex appeared to Ben under the temple, Locke was suspiciously absent.

We still don't have much information about MIB or Jacob to figure out who or what they really are yet. Whether they are two different beings or two halves of one, Omnipotent or mortal or brothers. Maybe dad has sent them to this island for a little game of life, or maybe their peers are punishing them.

Thanks Wiley nice points to show them not together at the same time, and that it goes along the line of JL and Christian can still be the same person. I would like to think that this is the case but those dang writers are tricky little suckers arent they? lol

[3d-aholic]

I Think MIB can impersonate a person (singular), a dead person as we have seen him do with Locke which seems to have been proven with Jacob's response in the foot.
If we then extrapolate a little beyond what we do know, then I believe MIB has impersonated others like Christian and Yemi.
I Think MIB didn't start to impersonate Locke until after 316 crash landed.
We have seen Christian and Locke together at the donkey wheel but not after 316 and I don't think we will.
We have not seen any two of the impersonated people together, like Christian and Locke at the hut with Sun, Frank and Ben. When Locke showed up, Christian was nowhere to be found. When Alex appeared to Ben under the temple, Locke was suspiciously absent.

Good interpretation of the facts as we know them and anticipation of the future. I agree with all of this.

[notsolost42]

Here's another possible example of why John Locke was always Nemesis.

Ask this question, "Why didn't Sun flash off of Ajira Flight 316 like the other Losties did?" Now, think about this. John Locke, aka Jeremy Bentham visited all of the losties EXCEPT Sun. His visit seems to be akin to that of Jacob's touch. But, Jacob's touch seems to have brought everyone to the island and Jeremy Bentham's visit seems to have sent them to 1977. Now ask why? If John Locke was always Nemesis from birth and now he is in the process of navigating through his loophole with the purpose of killing Jacob and taking over the island he must also win a war. Jeremy Bentham sent the losties to 1977 so that they would not be there to fight in the war. Perhaps he just presumed that they would be killed in the incident or succomb to the purge. Perhaps Jacob's last words, "They're coming" served as a warning to Nemesis that the past was changed this time.

Now we have Sun in 2007. We need to remember who Sun went to visit before she came back to the island. Sun went to visit Charles Widmore in hopes of building an alliance to get rid of Ben. We know Sun's motivation appeared to be retaliation for killing Jin in her mind but Widmore's motivation could very well be to regain control of the island once Ben is out of the picture. So, Sun and Widmore are united in a common purpose. Who else has a similar purpose? Yes, Nemesis. With Jacob out of the way he wants to become the leader of the Others and the island. But as Jacob advised, "They're coming" and so is the war for the island. Jacob's warning was letting Nemesis know that even though he found his loophole he hasn't gained control yet and there are more obsticles ahead.

The only way that this could be possible is if John Locke was always Nemesis because he went to visit the losties before he died. Also, when Locke was prematurly born he battled many illnesses and always won to the surprise of the nurses and doctors in the hospital. He was "special" right from birth.

[losttime]

Here's another possible example of why John Locke was always Nemesis.

Ask this question, "Why didn't Sun flash off of Ajira Flight 316 like the other Losties did?" Now, think about this. John Locke, aka Jeremy Bentham visited all of the losties EXCEPT Sun. His visit seems to be akin to that of Jacob's touch. But, Jacob's touch seems to have brought everyone to the island and Jeremy Bentham's visit seems to have sent them to 1977. Now ask why? If John Locke was always Nemesis from birth and now he is in the process of navigating through his loophole with the purpose of killing Jacob and taking over the island he must also win a war. Jeremy Bentham sent the losties to 1977 so that they would not be there to fight in the war. Perhaps he just presumed that they would be killed in the incident or succomb to the purge. Perhaps Jacob's last words, "They're coming" served as a warning to Nemesis that the past was changed this time.

Now we have Sun in 2007. We need to remember who Sun went to visit before she came back to the island. Sun went to visit Charles Widmore in hopes of building an alliance to get rid of Ben. We know Sun's motivation appeared to be retaliation for killing Jin in her mind but Widmore's motivation could very well be to regain control of the island once Ben is out of the picture. So, Sun and Widmore are united in a common purpose. Who else has a similar purpose? Yes, Nemesis. With Jacob out of the way he wants to become the leader of the Others and the island. But as Jacob advised, "They're coming" and so is the war for the island. Jacob's warning was letting Nemesis know that even though he found his loophole he hasn't gained control yet and there are more obsticles ahead.

The only way that this could be possible is if John Locke was always Nemesis because he went to visit the losties before he died. Also, when Locke was prematurly born he battled many illnesses and always won to the surprise of the nurses and doctors in the hospital. He was "special" right from birth.

That makes a lot of sense but if you can explain why he had Sun go with him to 2007 but he allowed Lapidus, who he obviously didnt care that he was going to leave when he tryed to talk Sun to go with him, and also Ilana and her gang who were clearly not there for Locke. Because you said that Bentham, who was still Locke who some claim was always Nemesis was able to send some back to 1977 but Sun he was able to keep with him and Lapidus and Ilana and her group he was powerless to also send to 1977 hoping they would suffer the same fate as the ones he did send back. Its not looking for an argument, I am looking for answers that all. You made a strong argument with the information you gave but I like to know what was the reason for the other ones on the plane to end up with Locke who were clearly against him

[notsolost42]

That makes a lot of sense but if you can explain why he had Sun go with him to 2007 but he allowed Lapidus, who he obviously didnt care that he was going to leave when he tryed to talk Sun to go with him, and also Ilana and her gang who were clearly not there for Locke. Because you said that Bentham, who was still Locke who some claim was always Nemesis was able to send some back to 1977 but Sun he was able to keep with him and Lapidus and Ilana and her group he was powerless to also send to 1977 hoping they would suffer the same fate as the ones he did send back. Its not looking for an argument, I am looking for answers that all. You made a strong argument with the information you gave but I like to know what was the reason for the other ones on the plane to end up with Locke who were clearly against him

The others you mentioned were not part of the losties that Jacob brought to the island. Sun was useful to him because they shared the same motive but not necessarily the same ending. Bentham was not aware of Lapidus, Ilana or Bram, et al, was he? I don't think so. Anyway, he said he was just going to get rid of them all after he was done with killing Jacob and most likely completing his plan. Thanks for not arguing with me today. It hasn't started off very well and it's likely not to change anytime soon.

Also, I just posted some new spoiler info on the 815 thread that you are not gonna like very much...I don't know if you are doing spoilers or not though so I won't say anymore.

[losttime]

The others you mentioned were not part of the losties that Jacob brought to the island. Sun was useful to him because they shared the same motive but not necessarily the same ending. Bentham was not aware of Lapidus, Ilana or Bram, et al, was he? I don't think so. Anyway, he said he was just going to get rid of them all after he was done with killing Jacob and most likely completing his plan. Thanks for not arguing with me today. It hasn't started off very well and it's likely not to change anytime soon.

Also, I just posted some new spoiler info on the 815 thread that you are not gonna like very much...I don't know if you are doing spoilers or not though so I won't say anymore.

I can understand they werent Losties but wouldnt Nemesis know they are threats just as he knew Sun wanted Ben dead or even spoke to Widmore?

[notsolost42]

I can understand they werent Losties but wouldnt Nemesis know they are threats just as he knew Sun wanted Ben dead?

Why would he? I don't think he was psychic. I don't mean that facitiously. I literally don't think he has those kinds of powers. Jeremy Bentham knew about Sun's hatred of Ben, didn't he? From his visit with Hurley maybe? When Ji Yeon was born and Hurley was the only lostie to visit Sun in Korea, she may have let him know. I have to watch that epi again but I remember her obtaining a gun at that point to kill Ben with, right? It came to her in a box marked flowers or something like that. Maybe that was after she came back to the states though. Anyway, if Nemesis had these special powers of esp, etc. why would he need to work so hard and so long to find his loophole? I don't think it would be that hard for him.

[losttime]

Why would he? I don't think he was psychic. I don't mean that facitiously. I literally don't think he has those kinds of powers. Jeremy Bentham knew about Sun's hatred of Ben, didn't he? From his visit with Hurley maybe? When Ji Yeon was born and Hurley was the only lostie to visit Sun in Korea, she may have let him know. I have to watch that epi again but I remember her obtaining a gun at that point to kill Ben with, right? It came to her in a box marked flowers or something like that. Maybe that was after she came back to the states though. Anyway, if Nemesis had these special powers of esp, etc. why would he need to work so hard and so long to find his loophole? I don't think it would be that hard for him.

Nothing to do with being psychic but if he has the power to impersonate someone and can live for extended periods of time why would it be out of the question to know what the people on the plane were there for. If he was the reason that they skipped to different times than he had to know who was on the plane. he could ave used others on the plane that he thought would be useful in his plan.
And yes Sun was in LA because Kate had droped Aaron off for Sun to watch him while she went to follow the Lawyer and Jack ended up going with her.
I do see your argument but I find it hard to believe that Nemesis is able to determine where people flash too but not know what the other people were doing on that flight. He could have made it so they died just as the co pilot did. I guess it really is just the way people see a show.
Dont forget also but if Sun hated Ben why would Nemesis want her there if Nemesis was goign to use Bento kill Jacob. Why didnt Nemesis bring Sayid back to 2007 who clearly had a great distaste for Ben and told Hurley to stay away from him. So they both hated Ben for their own reasons.
I also cant help but think that Locke didnt go to Sun because jin told him that he didnt want her there back on the island. So he didnt talk her into going back. It was Ben that convinced her to go back.
Notso you think I like arguing, I just have questions and certain things just dont add up for me. Maybe you are right. Maybe I am right or maybe we are both right, partially, I dont know. But we have to admit there is a huge piece of the puzzle that is not in place to confirm what each one of us is talking about.

[notsolost42]

Nothing to do with being psychic but if he has the power to impersonate someone and can live for extended periods of time why would it be out of the question to know what the people on the plane were there for. If he was the reason that they skipped to different times than he had to know who was on the plane. he could ave used others on the plane that he thought would be useful in his plan.
And yes Sun was in LA because Kate had droped Aaron off for Sun to watch him while she went to follow the Lawyer and Jack ended up going with her.
I do see your argument but I find it hard to believe that Nemesis is able to determine where people flash too but not know what the other people were doing on that flight. He could have made it so they died just as the co pilot did. I guess it really is just the way people see a show.
Dont forget also but if Sun hated Ben why would Nemesis want her there if Nemesis was goign to use Bento kill Jacob. Why didnt Nemesis bring Sayid back to 2007 who clearly had a great distaste for Ben and told Hurley to stay away from him. So they both hated Ben for their own reasons.
I also cant help but think that Locke didnt go to Sun because jin told him that he didnt want her there back on the island. So he didnt talk her into going back. It was Ben that convinced her to go back.
Notso you think I like arguing, I just have questions and certain things just dont add up for me. Maybe you are right. Maybe I am right or maybe we are both right, partially, I dont know. But we have to admit there is a huge piece of the puzzle that is not in place to confirm what each one of us is talking about.

Have you checked the spoiler forum for a post I made earlier this morning? I think you might want to unless you aren't doing season 6 spoilers.

[notsolost42]

Do me a favor since there are a lot of people trying to avoid season 6 spoilers...let's take this discussion to the spoiler thread it's in, okay? A little respect for the other people that don't want to know like Bunny.

[losttime]

Do me a favor since there are a lot of people trying to avoid season 6 spoilers...let's take this discussion to the spoiler thread it's in, okay? A little respect for the other people that don't want to know like Bunny.

Sorry about that. Good point. Didnt mean to leak anything. Should hve responded over there. My bad. I wasnt trying to be disrespectful just an oversight

[notsolost42]

Sorry about that. Good point. Didnt mean to leak anything. Should hve responded over there. My bad. I wasnt trying to be disrespectful just an oversight

No problem. Do you mind if I just delete that part so Bunny doesn't read it and anyone else not wanting to know? I would appreciate if you don't mind and I would be happy to continue the convo in the spoiler thread.

[losttime]

No problem. Do you mind if I just delete that part so Bunny doesn't read it and anyone else not wanting to know? I would appreciate if you don't mind and I would be happy to continue the convo in the spoiler thread.

Yea and switch it over to the correct thread if yo ucan do that

[notsolost42]

Yea and switch it over to the correct thread if yo ucan do that

Okay, I guess I could just copy and paste. Thanks LT.

[losttime]

Okay, I guess I could just copy and paste. Thanks LT.

Absolutely, I dont want people seeing SPOILERS that dont want to I just wasnt even thinking about that when I responded to your question.

[notsolost42]

Absolutely, I dont want people seeing SPOILERS that dont want to I just wasnt even thinking about that when I responded to your question.

Unfortunately I just realized this is in the Theories forum and I can't delete it. I will cut and paste it to the spoiler thread anyway and hope for the best and see if Lis or admin can delete it. Don't worry if we can't. Stuff happens.

[losttime]

Unfortunately I just realized this is in the Theories forum and I can't delete it. I will cut and paste it to the spoiler thread anyway and hope for the best and see if Lis or admin can delete it. Don't worry if we can't. Stuff happens.

well i wrote it i can delete it so i will do that

[losttime]

OK its deleted but you will have to delete post 120 because you quoted my SPOILER information LOL

[notsolost42]

OK its deleted but you will have to delete post 120 because you quoted my SPOILER information LOL

Perfect, thanks.

[notsolost42]

Here's another possible example of why John Locke was always Nemesis.

Ask this question, "Why didn't Sun flash off of Ajira Flight 316 like the other Losties did?" Now, think about this. John Locke, aka Jeremy Bentham visited all of the losties EXCEPT Sun. His visit seems to be akin to that of Jacob's touch. But, Jacob's touch seems to have brought everyone to the island and Jeremy Bentham's visit seems to have sent them to 1977. Now ask why? If John Locke was always Nemesis from birth and now he is in the process of navigating through his loophole with the purpose of killing Jacob and taking over the island he must also win a war. Jeremy Bentham sent the losties to 1977 so that they would not be there to fight in the war. Perhaps he just presumed that they would be killed in the incident or succomb to the purge. Perhaps Jacob's last words, "They're coming" served as a warning to Nemesis that the past was changed this time.

Now we have Sun in 2007. We need to remember who Sun went to visit before she came back to the island. Sun went to visit Charles Widmore in hopes of building an alliance to get rid of Ben. We know Sun's motivation appeared to be retaliation for killing Jin in her mind but Widmore's motivation could very well be to regain control of the island once Ben is out of the picture. So, Sun and Widmore are united in a common purpose. Who else has a similar purpose? Yes, Nemesis. With Jacob out of the way he wants to become the leader of the Others and the island. But as Jacob advised, "They're coming" and so is the war for the island. Jacob's warning was letting Nemesis know that even though he found his loophole he hasn't gained control yet and there are more obsticles ahead.

The only way that this could be possible is if John Locke was always Nemesis because he went to visit the losties before he died. Also, when Locke was prematurly born he battled many illnesses and always won to the surprise of the nurses and doctors in the hospital. He was "special" right from birth.

Okay, just trying to get this thread back on track now that we took care of a minor housekeeping issue. I also really wanted to add one more thought to the post above. I said that Locke's visit to each person influenced them being flashed off of the flight but I don't know if he TOUCHED them like Jacob had? This could very well be. IDK. I think we would have to go back and see. And we also didn't see him visit everyone but we can get a good idea from the ones we did see like Sayid, Jack, etc.

[losttime]

Okay, just trying to get this thread back on track now that we took care of a minor housekeeping issue. I also really wanted to add one more thought to the post above. I said that Locke's visit to each person influenced them being flashed off of the flight but I don't know if he TOUCHED them like Jacob had? This could very well be. IDK. I think we would have to go back and see. And we also didn't see him visit everyone but we can get a good idea from the ones we did see like Sayid, Jack, etc.

Notso I dont recall any contact with Jack at least from the scene they showed us but obviously if Jack was his Dr. than Jack made physical contact wit hhim. Does this count? I dont think it does for Locke wasnt making the contact. He might have shook Sayids hand Idont know. Kate from what icall had made no physical contact with him. And I dont recall if he shook Walts hand. But Walt wasnt asked to go back anyway. Sorry wasnt much help to strengthen eithers theory LOL

[notsolost42]

Notso I dont recall any contact with Jack at least from the scene they showed us but obviously if Jack was his Dr. than Jack made physical contact wit hhim. Does this count? I dont think it does for Locke wasnt making the contact. He might have shook Sayids hand Idont know. Kate from what icall had made no physical contact with him. And I dont recall if he shook Walts hand. But Walt wasnt asked to go back anyway. Sorry wasnt much help to strengthen eithers theory LOL

I have to go back and check also. I think he may have touched them in the same way as Jacob but we never really noticed as that would just be something so subtle. Now that we know what we know it is something to look for. It is a possibility though.

[losttime]

I have to go back and check also. I think he may have touched them in the same way as Jacob but we never really noticed as that would just be something so subtle. Now that we know what we know it is something to look for. It is a possibility though.

Possible but doubtful LOL I am more inclined to think that it was Nemesis who wanted her there and even that i doubt LOL It definitely is something and not jus ta random thing.It could be what 3d said. I still think what Ms Hawking said about reinacting the events is not just to get them on the plane. As I said they were all willing to go back, she didnt need to convince them at that point. They went to the Lamp Post to show them how to get back to the Isalnd not to be convinced of going back. So if it was just BS for Ms hwking to say those things, it defintiely was not to try and convince them to get back

[notsolost42]

I was searching through some old threads and came across this post I made on September 22, 2008. I think that it is a very big clue in retrospect, about John Locke having always been Nemesis. It's in John Locke's own words. John Locke the philosopher, that is.

My readings also brought me to more about John Locke, the philosopher. He is famous for an essay he wrote "Human Understanding". This essay influenced many such as David Hume and Bishop Berkeley. Berkeley? It made me think of Richard Alpert immediately. Berkeley California, University of Berkeley, the real Richard Alpert...all on the same plane. Here's what I found. Oh yeah, one more thing. It also ties in with Tabula Rasa...Blank Slate. Literally, in that episode it was about Kate's blank slate and new beginning on the island. I think it also referred to John Locke's. Maybe even more so in a hidden kind of way. Read on friends...

The writings of Avicenna, Ibn Tufail and Aquinas on the tabula rasa theory stood unprogressed for several centuries. In fact, our modern idea of the theory is mostly attributed to John Locke's expression of the idea in An Essay Concerning Human Understanding in the 17th century. In Locke's philosophy, tabula rasa was the theory that the (human) mind is at birth a "blank slate" without rules for processing data, and that data is added and rules for processing are formed solely by one's sensory experiences. The notion is central to Lockean empiricism. As understood by Locke, tabula rasa meant that the mind of the individual was born "blank", and it also emphasized the individual's freedom to author his or her own soul. Each individual was free to define the content of his or her character - but his or her basic identity as a member of the human species cannot be so altered. It is from this presumption of a free, self-authored mind combined with an immutable human nature that the Lockean doctrine of "natural" rights derives.

An Essay Concerning Human Understanding is one of John Locke's two most famous works, the other being his Second Treatise on Civil Government. First appearing in 1690, the essay concerns the foundation of human knowledge and understanding. He describes the mind at birth as a blank slate (tabula rasa, although he did not use those actual words) filled later through experience. The essay was one of the principal sources of empiricism in modern philosophy, and influenced many enlightenment philosophers, such as David Hume and Bishop Berkeley.

Pretty interesting in hind site, isn't it? I think it points to John Locke being a blank slate at birth and that slate being filled in by the man in the black shirts impression. Locke went on to live his life and add his own impressions but when he died and his memories died with him the man in the black shirt came out to play.

Here is a link to the old thread:

http://67.210.226.186/forum/showthread.php?t=4950&highlight=sanskrit

[xxsodafiendxx]

Im with notsolost on the "nemesis as locke" theory. just not from Lockes birth birth. I think nemesis took the form of locke when 815 crashed on the island, granting him the ability to walk, and instilling the "hunter" mindset that he had. remember, locke was kind of a pansy ass, with daddy issues before the island. ive also noticed little things throughout the series, like the famous conversation with walk about "light versus dark", knowing when its gonna rain, knowing how to make hallucinagenic pastes, glues, antiseptics, etc. but one of the two things that sticks out most is how locke lost his ability to walk when he came across the drug smuggling plane, which had a representative of the "light" side (Yemi). the other thing has probably been overlooked, and i already know the response that most people will give, but was it REALLY coincidence that he made Aarons cradle on Claires birthday? leads me to believe that he knew/knows just how special Aaron is going to be. and why would he care so much about people leaving the island?

To be fair, I also acknowledge some peoples theories about why nemesis didnt take the form of locke that early on. Ive gone back and watched episodes from the first 4 seasons (season 5 is still fresh in my head) and my response is that nemesis has sporadically "come and gone" as locke, which would explain lockes frustration at times when he was so certain about things. which may also explain his inability to walk when he initially approached the plane Yemi was on. remember how "dark" locke seemed when he tied up boone and made him have that hallucination? is that something he would have done before the island? he just took on a whole new personality as soon as he crashed on the island for me to believe he wasnt being possesed by something, namely nemesis.

[notsolost42]

Im with notsolost on the "nemesis as locke" theory. just not from Lockes birth birth. I think nemesis took the form of locke when 815 crashed on the island, granting him the ability to walk, and instilling the "hunter" mindset that he had. remember, locke was kind of a pansy ass, with daddy issues before the island. ive also noticed little things throughout the series, like the famous conversation with walk about "light versus dark", knowing when its gonna rain, knowing how to make hallucinagenic pastes, glues, antiseptics, etc. but one of the two things that sticks out most is how locke lost his ability to walk when he came across the drug smuggling plane, which had a representative of the "light" side (Yemi). the other thing has probably been overlooked, and i already know the response that most people will give, but was it REALLY coincidence that he made Aarons cradle on Claires birthday? leads me to believe that he knew/knows just how special Aaron is going to be. and why would he care so much about people leaving the island?
To be fair, I also acknowledge some peoples theories about why nemesis didnt take the form of locke that early on. Ive gone back and watched episodes from the first 4 seasons (season 5 is still fresh in my head) and my response is that nemesis has sporadically "come and gone" as locke, which would explain lockes frustration at times when he was so certain about things. which may also explain his inability to walk when he initially approached the plane Yemi was on. remember how "dark" locke seemed when he tied up boone and made him have that hallucination? is that something he would have done before the island? he just took on a whole new personality as soon as he crashed on the island for me to believe he wasnt being possesed by something, namely nemesis.

How would you explain certain things about Locke before he ever went to the island then, out of curiosity. For instance, the drawings that resembled the smoke monster when he was five years old, or the sound of the smoke monster eminating from his calculator on his desk at the box factory? I think there are many things that just point to an early intervention by Nemesis. Also, just the fact that he survived as a premature infant who, as the nurse put it, survived so many battles and they never saw anything like it before. I am looking at the whole picture and that's just what I come up with. Do you have any other ideas about those incidents?

[losttime]

How would you explain certain things about Locke before he ever went to the island then, out of curiosity. For instance, the drawings that resembled the smoke monster when he was five years old, or the sound of the smoke monster eminating from his calculator on his desk at the box factory? I think there are many things that just point to an early intervention by Nemesis. Also, just the fact that he survived as a premature infant who, as the nurse put it, survived so many battles and they never saw anything like it before. I am looking at the whole picture and that's just what I come up with. Do you have any other ideas about those incidents?

The explanation for Locke drawing the Smoke Monster can simply be he had dreams just like Ben did and just like Eko did while on the Island. The sound that the hand calculator made is the sound it actually makes when printing out numbers. Its not like it started making sound on its own. Are you implying that because the calculator made those sounds that means JL was Nemesis at that time? Because if anything, this would prove more the fact that JL was Smokey. Both instances have to do with Smokey, not Nemesis. I know you said many times that you dont think they are the same thing. Now with Locke surviving his premature birth does not necessarily mean he was Nemesis. I still believe this all happened because Nemesis who was his own entity still, watched over JL and did what needed to do to keep him alive. Just like Jacob didnt intervene with Locke before he was thrown out of the window but only did what he needed to make sure he didnt die. I still dont know if everytime we saw Jacob was actually Jacob. Maybe it was Nemesis pretending to be Jacob. Not that I am totally convinced of this but never know.

[netkeepervt]

I would just like to add my two cents on your theory. I strongly believe that the voice in the cabin ("Help Me") was Nemesis. He was held there by Jacob somehow and was released by someone opening up a path through the grey dust. That is why Illana burned the cabin once they knew that Nemesis was no longer held captive.

[losttime]

I would just like to add my two cents on your theory. I strongly believe that the voice in the cabin ("Help Me") was Nemesis. He was held there by Jacob somehow and was released by someone opening up a path through the grey dust. That is why Illana burned the cabin once they knew that Nemesis was no longer held captive.


While I agree with you on who you think it was that said "Help Me", I dont agree with Nemesis being trapped in there. I think the ash was to keep out someone or something and when that ash ring was interrupted than Jacob left and Nemesis took over the Cabin. The ybuned the Cabin because they didnt want anyone to think Jacob was there and it was no longer a secure location. The only way it would be Nemesis who was in there with the ash ring intact is if Ilana was going to the Cabin to see Nemesis specifically and based on her being visited by Jacob I am thinking she was going to where Jacob was supposed to be, only to find out someone else was using it for a while

[xxsodafiendxx]

Ok, this just kinda dawned on me, but what if the ring of ash around the cabin is the smoke monster?

[Dharma Deviant]

First, I want to begin by saying that Chester and whomever else was onboard the Mesopotamia theory was probably very right. I think that is where Jacob and the Nemesis came from. Mesopotamia can be connected to a strong philosophical nature, an interest in astronomy that was quite accurate for the times, and a unique connection with ancient Egyptian medicine as well as influences on the Greek and Roman civilization. The Mesopotamian civilization also had many rises and falls over the millenia, similar to what Nemesis said on the beach. The most unique connection was with water. They believed the world was a flat disc surrounded by a huge holed space and above that was heaven. They also believed that the water was everywhere, the top, bottom and sides and that the universe was born from this enormous sea.

It was that last sentence in that paragraph that sold me lock, stock and barrel. In the translations I made from the glyphs in the "temple" basement, I noted that it said another world lies beneath the sea. Something quite close to that. I'll find that old thread and post the link. It fits incredibly with this Mesopotamian theory.

Okay, that established, let's get to John Locke. But first, I need to talk about Jacob and Nemesis a little. I think that we can safely assume that they have some type of control on time or spacetime and can manipulate it at will. I base this on the way Jacob traveled back and touched our losties both as children and then Hurley and Sayid later. He never aged or looked different than when we saw him on the beach. other than being a little "cleaned up." Now, to John. I think that John Locke has always been Nemesis since birth. Yes, don't freak out. John Locke is in a timeloop like the compass. I think that was the entire purpose of showing that whole, confusing but true story arc. Anyway, I think that Nemesis had to let John Locke live his life out that he would have always lived before he could emerge because it is a time loop. Once John was dead, Nemesis could emerge fully as John. And thus we have deadLocke or flock or whatever you wish to call him. I don't think that Nemesis/deadLocke is part of smokie or vice versa though. But, they are eternally connected. Smokie may be the judge in this game.

Here are a few reasons that I think John Locke was always Nemesis:

As a newborn infant, a very sickly one at that, John lived and surprised everyone. As he grew, he drew pictures with what appears to be the smoke monster. This is from his memories as Nemesis. He had a preoccupation with knives as we saw when he chose the knife over the Book of Laws when Richard came to visit. When John was older and working in the box factory that Hurley would eventually buy, while sitting at his desk and adding numbers on his calculator, you can hear the smoke monsters noises. He also had a pension for playing war games, which included maneuvering his game pieces to win the battle. Through his life, John could not kill anyone even when faced with that possibility. In this case, the federal agent at the drug dealer camp.

On the island, John immediately showed us a very bizzare side. On the second day after the crash, he told Walt about the game backgammon. He said it was the oldest game in history and that back then the dice were made of bone. In that infamous scene, he picks up one game piece for each side and describes it as one dark and one light and this black and white theme has played throughout, as we all know. John Locke's sensativity and knowledge of the island is because he is Nemesis. He knows when it will rain, etc. He looked into the eye of the island and it was beautiful. He is the only one that stood out in the open and faced down smokie and lived. On his third day on the island (I believe it was day3) John already did not want anyone else to leave. He struck Sayid in the back of the head and smashed the two way radio. John was also faced with having to kill Anthony Cooper and again, he could not do it.

So, here's where John Locke falls into the time loop that allows Nemesis to take over. It was shortly after Nemesis or deadLocke had first appeared. He had something to do immediately and took everyone to the beechcraft, where he interfered and set up everything that would happen to John Locke in his past. He changed his history and it became a time loop at that point.

So, this "split" that allowed deadLocke to appear and John Locke's dead body to appear happened because when Locke died, it allowed Nemesis to appear or be born or how ever you want to describe it. There were two Locke's because there always were two Locke's inside of him. Well, one being Nemesis and the other John. The death of John allowed for the deadLocke to emerge. Kind of a phoenix rising from the ashes I guess.

So, while John is growing up Jacob has work to do. He knows that Nemesis had found his loophole. Jacob went back in time and touched our losties so that they would appear on the island. At that time, the first time, he did not have to touch Hurley, Bernard or Rose. I think he didn't have to because they would have always been on that flight. Hurley had to make it because of his mother's birthday and Rose just wanted Bernard to stop searching for her cures and to just live the life they had in the time they had together. And by the way, that is exactly what they wound up doing on the island and quite happily, too. Jacob was gathering his army to fight deadLocke/Nemesis in the battle we will see next season. That is why he brought them all back. The ones that had been touched before the Oceanic Flight, Sawyer, Kate, Jack would always come back. He had to ensure that Hurley and Sayid would return as well. Hurley has been referred to as the alchemist on a few occasions and I think that this relates back to Mesopotamian times. And Sayid is an Iraqi, which is the area where Mesopotamia first began. He also brought Ilana and Bram, his foot soldiers I imagine. So, I think that they have had some kind of unknown involvement with Jacob all along.

I am trying to figure in the Others next. I think that they will be part of Jacob's army though. I think the Others are good guys, having always seeked to carry out Jacob's wishes and keep the island safe. They have always chosen to take young children so that they could be raised or changed (possibly like Ben might have been) to become Others.

Well, I guess that about covers what has just come to me in a flood of thoughts and I hope I was able to write it so it can be understood the way I understand it.

WOW!! Great theory, very detailed too.... I didn't actually take the time to read tru all of the posts, but I read the first couple of pages and this has to be one of the most on-point theories I have seen so far. It all fits in perfectly, the points you made about his childhood make it very convincing. Also the "phoenix" analogy... great stuff....

But what if the loophole was activated once John reached the island. What if crossing into it's "aura" or "shield" what ever you want to call it, nemesis awakens inside of him, thus turning him into a weirdo when he reaches the island. Then at this point John just turns into foot soldier going to work.

I get what your saying about nothing really activates the loophole, it's just always been. But something along the way made me think maybe on the island he just turns into Nemesis..... or nemesis takes over, leaving John in a powerless state or with very lil control. Then off the island John kicks back in and nemesis is kinda in a dormant state just partially controlling him. Therefor killing John off the island completely eliminates the extra baggage for nemesis , leaving him in complete and total control of "Locke".

WOOOOOOO... Sorry got myself going there.... lol:eek:

[notsolost42]

WOW!! Great theory, very detailed too.... I didn't actually take the time to read tru all of the posts, but I read the first couple of pages and this has to be one of the most on-point theories I have seen so far. It all fits in perfectly, the points you made about his childhood make it very convincing. Also the "phoenix" analogy... great stuff....

But what if the loophole was activated once John reached the island. What if crossing into it's "aura" or "shield" what ever you want to call it, nemesis awakens inside of him, thus turning him into a weirdo when he reaches the island. Then at this point John just turns into foot soldier going to work.

I get what your saying about nothing really activates the loophole, it's just always been. But something along the way made me think maybe on the island he just turns into Nemesis..... or nemesis takes over, leaving John in a powerless state or with very lil control. Then off the island John kicks back in and nemesis is kinda in a dormant state just partially controlling him. Therefor killing John off the island completely eliminates the extra baggage for nemesis , leaving him in complete and total control of "Locke".

WOOOOOOO... Sorry got myself going there.... lol:eek:

Absolutely. Crashing on the island was kind of Nemesis' home coming. But, he was always part of John Locke. His essence has been with him since birth only to be "released" once he was home again. I think that some of the scenes we watched where John suddenly can't walk again was the essense of John Locke fighting the essense of Nemesis taking over inside. It was the battle or struggle within himself. Does that make any sense?

[Dharma Deviant]

Absolutely. Crashing on the island was kind of Nemesis' home coming. But, he was always part of John Locke. His essence has been with him since birth only to be "released" once he was home again. I think that some of the scenes we watched where John suddenly can't walk again was the essense of John Locke fighting the essense of Nemesis taking over inside. It was the battle or struggle within himself. Does that make any sense?

PERFECT SENSE! That's exactly what I meant by "getting rid of excess baggage". Once Lock was dead off the island there would be no power struggle for nemesis when he got back to the island. It would just be nemesis in total control.

Totally great, you really thought this one out.

[notsolost42]

PERFECT SENSE! That's exactly what I meant by "getting rid of excess baggage". Once Lock was dead off the island there would be no power struggle for nemesis when he got back to the island. It would just be nemesis in total control.

Totally great, you really thought this one out.

lol! Thanks DD! But I think that all depends on who is doing the thinking! lol! I have my distracters!!!! lol!!!!

[Vyncent]

Some interesting religious things...just been on my mind

We really don't know who John Locke's father is, Richard Alpert or Anthony Cooper, the whole donating a kidney thing seems to support that it was Anthony...

Which, if it was Anthony, that would make John Locke's initials J.C., a reference to Jesus Christ.

Also, in season one, the episode entitled "The Moth"...John takes Charlie's stash and Locke tells Charlie that he has three chances to ask for his stash back. He also tells Charlie about the moth that is in the cocoon, at the end of that episode, Charlie sees the moth flying above the campfire and he realizes that he's been set free, he has undergone a major change, just like that moth.

I don't know why, but I made the connection with this to the apostle Peter in the Bible. Jesus told Peter that he would deny Him three times before the rooster crowed (after he was arrested/before His crucifixion), and it happened exactly that way. When that rooster crowed, Peter realized what he had done and wept about it, but it also strengthened his faith, and he also, underwent a change.

**Edited for a line I forgot to put in.

[notsolost42]

Some interesting religious things...just been on my mind

We really don't know who John Locke's father is, Richard Alpert or Anthony Cooper, the whole donating a kidney thing seems to support that it was Anthony...

Which, if it was Anthony, that would make John Locke's initials J.C., a reference to Jesus Christ.

Also, in season one, the episode entitled "The Moth"...John takes Charlie's stash and Locke tells Charlie that he has three chances to ask for his stash back. He also tells Charlie about the moth that is in the cocoon, at the end of that episode, Charlie sees the moth flying above the campfire and he realizes that he's been set free, he has undergone a major change, just like that moth.

I don't know why, but I made the connection with this to the apostle Peter in the Bible. Jesus told Peter that he would deny Him three times before the rooster crowed (after he was arrested/before His crucifixion), and it happened exactly that way. When that rooster crowed, Peter realized what he had done and wept about it, but it also strengthened his faith, and he also, underwent a change.

**Edited for a line I forgot to put in.

I don't do the religeous thing with LOST. Sorry. I don't have the knowledge about it to add or subtract anything. What I do know is that at Comic-Con it was said that TPTB walk right up to the line of religion but it doesn't play a particular role in the show and they will not cross the line. LOST is watched by many different faiths as well as others.....

[Vyncent]

I don't do the religeous thing with LOST. Sorry. I don't have the knowledge about it to add or subtract anything. What I do know is that at Comic-Con it was said that TPTB walk right up to the line of religion but it doesn't play a particular role in the show and they will not cross the line. LOST is watched by many different faiths as well as others.....

Lol, that's fine, It's just a few things that have been kind of nagging at the back of my head. If you look up "religion" on Lostpedia, it will give you a whole bunch of tie-ins for different religions. I'm not trying to push religion on anyone...I was raised in a Christian household, and it's just connections that I've made with Terry's character while watching Lost ;) There are others (having to do with other characters), but this is a thread about Locke :p

[notsolost42]

Lol, that's fine, It's just a few things that have been kind of nagging at the back of my head. If you look up "religion" on Lostpedia, it will give you a whole bunch of tie-ins for different religions. I'm not trying to push religion on anyone...I was raised in a Christian household, and it's just connections that I've made with Terry's character while watching Lost ;) There are others (having to do with other characters), but this is a thread about Locke :p

lol! I am familiar with the religeous tie ins! Yes, this is a thread about Locke...I know, I am the OP!!! lol!!!

[Vyncent]

Ahhh yes, one other thing that I wanted to say about Locke...

I've been doing a re-watch of the complete series, and I'm getting near the end of season one. There have been many 'overtones' (I hope that is the right way to describe it) when it comes to Locke. Especially at the end of a couple of episodes...it shows what the other characters are doing, with mellow music playing, but then it switches to Locke, and the music changes to something much more dramatic.

I don't know...lol, after I get done with this re-watch I'll probably do it again, and start taking notes. There are just too many ....what word am I looking for....circumstances(?) surrounding Locke and the role he plays to simply ignore where the plot is going from the first season.

[losttime]

On Lostpedia it talks about nemesis becoming Locke only after 316 gets to the Island. This kind of goes against th ewhole Locke always Nemesis, I think

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Jacob's_nemesis

[notsolost42]

On Lostpedia it talks about nemesis becoming Locke only after 316 gets to the Island. This kind of goes against th ewhole Locke always Nemesis, I think

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Jacob's_nemesis

Lostpedia is fan based writing. Just because it says that in there doesn't mean a thing. They can only write what they think is canon or has been proven canon at the moment. What I said is my theory. They cannot include theories in that section of Lostpedia. You are really stretching here, aren't you? Be careful, you know if you stretch too far you might just snap.

[losttime]

Lostpedia is fan based writing. Just because it says that in there doesn't mean a thing. They can only write what they think is canon or has been proven canon at the moment. What I said is my theory. They cannot include theories in that section of Lostpedia. You are really stretching here, aren't you? Be careful, you know if you stretch too far you might just snap.

Notso, you are the one that said it was canon. I asked you not too long ago and you said it was. And you always use it to back up something you said. Its not "stretching". I am just telling you what it says on there.

What do you mean that they cant include theories in there? If its not a fact its basically a theory, isnt it, until proven to be factual.

[notsolost42]

Notso, you are the one that said it was canon. I asked you not too long ago and you said it was. And you always use it to back up something you said. Its not "stretching". I am just telling you what it says on there.

What do you mean that they cant include theories in there? If its not a fact its basically a theory, isnt it, until proven to be factual.

Again, I'll say it differently so maybe you'll understand it this time, Lostpedia states known facts in the overall body of the articles it writes. Theories are located in the theory section. What I am saying has obviously not happened yet and it is my theory. Get it now? If and when what I think happens then Lostpedia will update their article to include this information. Until then, of course they are only going to state what is known at the time. They do not speculate in their articles or at least they do not try to. That is reserved for the theory section.

[losttime]

Again, I'll say it differently so maybe you'll understand it this time, Lostpedia states known facts in the overall body of the articles it writes. Theories are located in the theory section. What I am saying has obviously not happened yet and it is my theory. Get it now? If and when what I think happens then Lostpedia will update their article to include this information. Until then, of course they are only going to state what is known at the time. They do not speculate in their articles or at least they do not try to. That is reserved for the theory section.


And you consider what you said here a nice way of communicating with people? "say it differently so maybe you'll will understand it this time" and "Get it now?"

I know you will say I am misunderstanding what you meant but seems to be very condescending and passive aggressive.

[Desi420]

And you consider what you said here a nice way of communicating with people? "say it differently so maybe you'll will understand it this time" and "Get it now?"

I know you will say I am misunderstanding what you meant but seems to be very condescending and passive aggressive.
Geez, can we keep the ego out of this and just stick to the topic. Who cares what we think of each other. Let just stick to lost please. I can't stand my own family's drama

[losttime]

Geez, can we keep the ego out of this and just stick to the topic. Who cares what we think of each other. Let just stick to lost please. I can't stand my own family's drama

Desi why do you always quote me and make it out like I am creating the problem? You did it just recently in the other thread as well. It seems you are focusing it in on me when I am not the one with the ego.

[Desi420]

Desi why do you always quote me and make it out like I am creating the problem? You did it just recently in the other thread as well. It seems you are focusing it in on me when I am not the one with the ego.
It's nothing personal. I have been away from this sight for a bit and looked forward to getting back in to our discussions, but the past week it seems that everything I read here is anything but lost. If it seems that I pick you out of a crowd, its because I think you are better then that to get all wrapped up in it.

[losttime]

It's nothing personal. I have been away from this sight for a bit and looked forward to getting back in to our discussions, but the past week it seems that everything I read here is anything but lost. If it seems that I pick you out of a crowd, its because I think you are better then that to get all wrapped up in it.

Oh ok. Was just trying to see what was the connection. Well thank you for holding me to such high esteem. I unfortunately allow myself to be pulled in to discussions leading to a dead end. Thank you for explaing it.

[Desi420]

Oh ok. Was just trying to see what was the connection. Well thank you for holding me to such high esteem. I unfortunately allow myself to be pulled in to discussions leading to a dead end. Thank you for explaing it.
Not a prob.:)