Circumstantial Evidence that Smokey and MiB are not the Same!

[3d-aholic]

Ok, in season 5, when Ben goes down to be judged by the Smoke Monster. We see the smoke monster comes to Ben. Ben is surrounded by the smoke monster and the smoke recounts his life with Alex. The evidence so to speak is gone over point by point. The visions are nearly life like in some cases. However, then the smoke monster stops and retreats quietly into the grid from which it came.

Ben turns and suddenly Alex is there.

The to me signals that the writers are telling me that the smoke monster and the MiB are NOT the same. The smoke monster completely retreats...it doesn't split up to form Alex

Ok, as we recall, the same thing happened with Ecko. The image of his brother was there with no smoke monster. Then his brother ran away...and the smoke monster showed up for judgement.

There are two separate occassions where the smoke monster and the person are shown separate. In the later case of Alex...we are clearly shown the smoke monster completely going down the drain and only after a pause do we see Alex....who seems to disappear as she appeared..in a flash. As soon as Alex disappears then MiBLocke starts calling for Ben.

[notsolost42]

I agree with you on that one 3D! I do not think that smokie and the man in black are one in the same at all. I think that there is going to be a big reveal of a third party, the true leader of Jacob and the man in black, next season. I don't know if it is smokie in a human form or another being but I am leaning towards another being seperate from smokie. Although, if it were the personification of smokie that would fit the "three's" that we keep running in to; i.e., Jacob, Nemesis and smokie/their boss. Someone or something is running the show and it isn't Jacob or Nemesis.

[wiley]

Ok, in season 5, when Ben goes down to be judged by the Smoke Monster. We see the smoke monster comes to Ben. Ben is surrounded by the smoke monster and the smoke recounts his life with Alex. The evidence so to speak is gone over point by point. The visions are nearly life like in some cases. However, then the smoke monster stops and retreats quietly into the grid from which it came.

Ben turns and suddenly Alex is there.

The to me signals that the writers are telling me that the smoke monster and the MiB are NOT the same. The smoke monster completely retreats...it doesn't split up to form Alex

Ok, as we recall, the same thing happened with Ecko. The image of his brother was there with no smoke monster. Then his brother ran away...and the smoke monster showed up for judgement.

There are two separate occassions where the smoke monster and the person are shown separate. In the later case of Alex...we are clearly shown the smoke monster completely going down the drain and only after a pause do we see Alex....who seems to disappear as she appeared..in a flash. As soon as Alex disappears then MiBLocke starts calling for Ben.

One of the things bugging me is the scene before this, when Ben goes to call the smoke monster. Locke disappears into the jungle for awhile.
I wonder what exactly he was doing?

[notsolost42]

One of the things bugging me is the scene before this, when Ben goes to call the smoke monster. Locke disappears into the jungle for awhile.
I wonder what exactly he was doing?

Locke has always had a habit of disappearing or appearing at very particular moments the entire series. This is one reason that I say he was always Nemesis. When Jack fell off the cliff and was hanging by a tree root, who suddenly appeared to help him? Locke. When Ben called smokie to attack the freighter crew and smokie did the job and left, who suddenly appeared? Locke. When Sawyer was trying to catch the boar that destroyed his tent and was picking on him, who suddenly appeared? Locke. There are about a zillion examples. I don't think it means Locke is smokie. I think it means he has very interesting timing and there is a reason for it.

[Dead but Here]

Yep. Agree. I think this was part of my brain 'splosion post from before our little 'incident' (man I feel like a nerd for calling it that)

I need to go back to my brain 'splosion and see what all was in that. A lot of things sort of seemed to fit together for me and I don't think I got it all down.

[3d-aholic]

One of the things bugging me is the scene before this, when Ben goes to call the smoke monster. Locke disappears into the jungle for awhile.
I wonder what exactly he was doing?

Yeh, we are led there to believe that MIBLOCKE is smokie. Ben calls smokie, hears something, and warns Sun about it...but then Locke appears with a smile. So true enough. However, he has a smile which suggests to me the writers are "fooling" around with us there....

I think the answer to your question is Locke has to disappear because doesn't Christian show up somewhere around that time doesn't he?? Locke and Christian seem to just miss each other.

[Dead but Here]

Locke has always had a habit of disappearing or appearing at very particular moments the entire series. This is one reason that I say he was always Nemesis. When Jack fell off the cliff and was hanging by a tree root, who suddenly appeared to help him? Locke. When Ben called smokie to attack the freighter crew and smokie did the job and left, who suddenly appeared? Locke. When Sawyer was trying to catch the boar that destroyed his tent and was picking on him, who suddenly appeared? Locke. There are about a zillion examples. I don't think it means Locke is smokie. I think it means he has very interesting timing and there is a reason for it.

I think several people are manipulated by way of smokey (I don't think it is sentient). Locke especially. He is made to think he is special so he can be used.

I think Ben is manipulated. He is 'judged' for the thing he feels guilty for, not the things he is actually responsible for. Eko was 'judged' for things that should have made him feel guilty, but he didn't. He made peace with his past and was not going to be manipulated by it. He was killed a few minutes later. Yemi wasn't his Yemi exactly, but I don't think it was smokey either.

[notsolost42]

I think several people are manipulated by way of smokey (I don't think it is sentient). Locke especially. He is made to think he is special so he can be used.

I think Ben is manipulated. He is 'judged' for the thing he feels guilty for, not the things he is actually responsible for. Eko was 'judged' for things that should have made him feel guilty, but he didn't. He made peace with his past and was not going to be manipulated by it. He was killed a few minutes later. Yemi wasn't his Yemi exactly, but I don't think it was smokey either.

I think if it does turn out that Locke was always the man in the black shirt from birth, then Emily will truely be vindicated and what she said, although we know she was a little nuts, was right and Locke was special! That is yet to be seen. Did you know that Emily was also in Santa Rosa just like Hurley was? Og course, at a different time...I think. As for Yemi not being smokie, TPTB have already said that he was. So, that is that and dead is dead. lol! BTW, Ben wasn't judged for any "crimes" because whatever he did, he did for the benefit and good of the island. He was judged for his letting an Other be killed, as were other Others. I think that Eko was actually judged more for his murdering two Others in the first epi of the second season than for the sins of his past. It all has to do with the group and the island and their protection and future success. Juliet was only branded for killing an Other because she was carrying out Ben's orders at the time. Of course, this is all just my opinion.

[wiley]

Yes very suspicious, like Clark Kent and Superman never seen together.

[notsolost42]

Yes very suspicious, like Clark Kent and Superman never seen together.

By todays standards as well as the shows, way to simplistic an idea though. Especially since we have actually seen John Locke and smokie together in the same scene at the same time...actually touching each other type together. Remember when smokie tried to pull John down the rabbit hole? So, they are obviously NOT one and the same.

[Dead but Here]

That was before he died. Not that I think they're the same. Just sayin... :D

[wiley]

I don't think Locke is Smokie. I Think it is strange that Locke disappeared at that time though. I think that his trek through the jungle at this time may be similar to when he sent Richard to tell himself he had to die to save everyone.
Perhaps he knew where someone was during another flash and we have not seen it yet. If Nemesis is posing as Locke at this point (which I think he is) then he might have other things to do or other people to pose as at this point in time. Maybe he has to go pose as Christian or Walt or whoever right at that moment in time, a little side errand for the sake of his plan.

[losttime]

Its intersting that Ben is being judged for the death of an Other when he himself told Miles that all his people are willing to die for the Island. It wasnt until Ben learned that it was his daughter(by the way is an Other), than it became more personal. Ben never thought she was going to die because when she was shot he than said that he(Widmore) changed the rules so I am not convinced that he was being judged for anything especially being judged on one of the only things he ever felt true hurt over. Ben isnt judged for nothing else? He did many things that he could be judged for. Why wasnt he put before a group of his peers as Juliet was for shooting one of her own? How come she didnt have to go before Smokey? She was the direct cause of Pickett's death. Much more deserving of judgement than what happened with Ben and Alex. So to me, it was Smokey who purposely judged Ben on something he was clearly grief stricken over and was already going to live. When we didlearn that Ben was going to be judged for Alex, I knew right than and there he would be forgiven, based on Ben's reaction to Alex's death. Now the Alex that appeared is definitely an apparition of Smokey or something else but defintely not Alex. If you turn the volume up you will hear the sound of something whisping away fast(like Smokey does).For a while I thought that the horn sound Smokey makes is when it leaves the area and we hear that right after it goes through the vent and Alex suddenly appears. She has the same demeanor as Yemi and Boone after they appear after their deaths. But with regard to that noise, if you watch the pilot episode and they first encounter the monster in the tree line you will hear that horn sound more than once yet there is still movement in the brush along the edge of the jungle and the beach. Also, it would appear that there is more than one monster based on how you watch the heads of the Losties turn suddenly because the noise is now in a completely different location, like there are several Smokeys scanniong an area. I dont find this completetly strange because when the monster went to attack Juliet and Kate on the other side of the fence, it appeared in 3 distinct shapes only to converge at the sonic fence. So i think it is possible that part of Smokey "judged" Ben and another part appeared as Alex and threatened Ben if he didnt follow every thing JL told him to do. By this point JL already knows he is going to kill Jacob, Smokey doesnt see this? He is at hte Temple where Smokey is the guardina of supposedly and yet he is free to go about his plan to kill Jacob. Not only that but has the backing of Smokey. So I have been saying all along since the finale that Nemesis and Smokey are one in the same or working closel together. Sorry if this seems to drift in thoughts but its late and there was so much i wanted to cover.

[beachblinkette]

Ok, in season 5, when Ben goes down to be judged by the Smoke Monster. We see the smoke monster comes to Ben. Ben is surrounded by the smoke monster and the smoke recounts his life with Alex. The evidence so to speak is gone over point by point. The visions are nearly life like in some cases. However, then the smoke monster stops and retreats quietly into the grid from which it came.

Ben turns and suddenly Alex is there.

The to me signals that the writers are telling me that the smoke monster and the MiB are NOT the same. The smoke monster completely retreats...it doesn't split up to form Alex

Ok, as we recall, the same thing happened with Ecko. The image of his brother was there with no smoke monster. Then his brother ran away...and the smoke monster showed up for judgement.

There are at least two separate occassions where the smoke monster and the person are shown as separate. In the later case of Alex...we are clearly shown the smoke monster completely going down the drain and only after a pause do we see Alex....who seems to disappear as she appeared..in a flash. As soon as Alex disappears then MiBLocke starts calling for Ben.
Good points 3D!! When the smoke monster "reads their minds as we have seen in the xray type "flashes", there must be a trigger that the island allows the person who has died unjustly to come back and deliver a message, ask a question or demand satisfaction.

Either that or Smokie uses the victimized person whose death was brought about to deliver the message (after the xray review) as is decided by Smokie.

If Smokie's audience fails to satisfy Smokie and the victim, in their actions and answers, then Smokie deals with them as he did with Ecko. Here comes da judge!! Ordered and planned?

However there are many instances that do not back up this idea. Nadine was just grabbed and killed, as was the pilot, and apparently the Frenchman. Locke was probably xrayed, but we were not allowed to see that. Smokie tried to pull him down into one of the vents and it is unclear (to me) as to why. Chaotic?

Smokie appears to have given Ecko and Ben a second chance. If Ben fails to deliver, will he be expunged as Ecko was? Which brings me to think that Nemesis is the chaos factor on the island. Jacob is the order, the planner and organizer. Aren't Order and Chaos the two facets of this universe or any universe?

[losttime]

Good points 3D!! When the smoke monster "reads their minds as we have seen in the xray type "flashes", there must be a trigger that the island allows the person who has died unjustly to come back and deliver a message, ask a question or demand satisfaction.

Either that or Smokie uses the victimized person whose death was brought about to deliver the message (after the xray review) as is decided by Smokie.

If Smokie's audience fails to satisfy Smokie and the victim, in their actions and answers, then Smokie deals with them as he did with Ecko. Here comes da judge!! Ordered and planned?

However there are many instances that do not back up this idea. Nadine was just grabbed and killed, as was the pilot, and apparently the Frenchman. Locke was probably xrayed, but we were not allowed to see that. Smokie tried to pull him down into one of the vents and it is unclear (to me) as to why. Chaotic?

Smokie appears to have given Ecko and Ben a second chance. If Ben fails to deliver, will he be expunged as Ecko was? Which brings me to think that Nemesis is the chaos factor on the island. Jacob is the order, the planner and organizer. Aren't Order and Chaos the two facets of this universe or any universe?

I dont believe at all Smokie was all about given Ben a second chance. Smokie was purely setting Ben up to follow JL. Smokie knows exactly what he was doing when he had Ben watch images of his daughter and things from his past. Are we to believe this intellingent entity doesnt know what JL has in store? Somehow Alex knows Ben is plotting to kill JL again. A hunch, or is it because Smokie was Alex and was able to read what he has planned. But he isnt judged for killing the supposed leader of the Island. So we are to believe Alex knows what Ben has intention of doing but not JL. And if "she" does know than she wants Ben to kill Jacob whic leads me back to believe that either she is Smokey and working with Nemesis or is Nemesis which is Smokie as well. There was a great vidoe made by someone to show the similarities between Nemesis and Smokie on yourtube. It showed what they had in common and was put together very well. But forget the video. To say Alex or anyone else that died that comes back(not in a flashback), is actually them and just brought to deliver a mesage I think is out of the realm of what is going on in the show. Its already been acknoowledged that Smokie can take on the form of hmans and seems the same characteristics of all those who have died and appeared again are similar.
Here is the youtube feed that explains it fairly well. not saying its conclusive just intersting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9ghX3vZHLg

[3d-aholic]

I think the "judging" in terms of good and bad is a facade...

I think that Smokie is MR. X's -- Richard Alpert and the Others. Basically, MiB gives Smokie "the list" and smokie carrys it out. Some people he saves, some people he kills. In other words, RA and Smokie are completely analgous...and both wear "black shirts". ;)

They pretend to be "impartial" judges...but in actuality the judging is not along the traditional lines of good and evil and that is where the term Judging breaks down. Because typically we tend to think of a judge as deciding between right and wrong.... However, this is not what a judge really decides. A judge decides based on the laws. Some laws are unjust. On the island, the laws are not about right or wrong or good or bad at all....they are about philosophy. Therefore each team mate has a judge they can use to "expell" players out of the game.

[Brother Desmond]

By todays standards as well as the shows, way to simplistic an idea though. Especially since we have actually seen John Locke and smokie together in the same scene at the same time...actually touching each other type together. Remember when smokie tried to pull John down the rabbit hole? So, they are obviously NOT one and the same.

They are not one in the same by your definition, because you believe John has always been MiB. For the people who don't believe John has always been MiB, myself included, this isn't evidence that John and MiB are not one in the same. I don't believe John was taken over by MiB until Ajira 316 crashed on the Island so, in my opinion, John and the Smoke Monster could be seen together before the crash of 316.

This is an interesting thread. It is circumstantial as stated, becuase one possible explanation for "Alex" appearing so suddenly after Smokie's apparent retreat is that Smokie is capable of breaking itself into pieces. Which we have seen before.

I'm not saying Smokie and MiB are definitely one in the same. But if they are, this is one explanation as to why the could be, even given 3-d's examples. If the Smoke Monster and MiB are indeed to seperate entities, it would seem they are working together to accomplish the same goals.

[Dead but Here]

I think the 'judgment' is straight up manipulation. Not judgment at all, but something meant to make someone do anything to atone. Then they can be used. Ben was used. Locke didn't need guilt. He needed to be special. He needed meaning. That's what he was shown. He was special. And then he was used. Eko was meant to be tormented by his past, but he'd made peace with it and couldn't be manipulated by it. He was killed.

[beachblinkette]

Thanks losttime for the Youtube links. Kenny has put together some great clips. I really liked the one you linked to there. What I saw again raised some questions in my mind.
Did you notice the Horn sound when Smokie was thrashing around in the jungle? It reminded me of a signal horn. Was that either a warning or was it calling Smokie back to someone or somewhere? It sounded twice, I think. It reminds me of the study I made of train whistles and their meaning. Is it 2 longs and 1 short that signifies a train is coming to a crossing?

Ben had 2 parallel scratches above his right eye on the forehead when he and JL were walking on the beach. Anything?

Eko had 1 vertical scratch going through his L eyebrow to the eyelid when he was talking with Yemi's apparition. There was an X made by the laces on Jacob's shirt and an X on the lantern Locke carried into the cabin to see Christian and Claire. Probably. Nothing. There....but I love it!!

Oh! and I think just as interesting as chaos theory is the new Complexity Theory!! Now that IS exciting.

Master Order and Lord Chaos (Marvel)
"The serve as the opposing forces within a dimension called the Magick Realm. It is a place between fact and fantasy from which magic users draw their power. Chaos and Order attempt to maintain a balance of power between them for the well-being of the Universe. They are almost constantly at odds with each other and created the IN-Betweener (Smokie?) as a third force to serve them and further their eternal conflict."

Now that is where the real Complexity Theory (not a Marvel idea) comes in!! It is defined as "a chaos of behaviors in which the components of the system never quite lock into place, yet never quite dissolve into turbulence either. The C.T. is trying to find order in complex systems. Complexity is the ability of a system to switch between different modes of behavior as the environment conditions are varied."

order -> complexity -> chaos

"Complexity lies at the edge of chaos within the fine line that lies between order and chaos. Although this region is there, it is vast, like the surface of the ocean. The edge of chaos is a transition phase, where life is thought to be created and sustained."

Somehow I think this helps to explain Jacob and Nemesis and Smokie. I am not sure how, but it intrigues me.

For more on chaos, order, strange attractors, period doubling, Feigenbaum universal numbers, Santa Fe Institute and the complexity theory as it connects to other issues (it is easy to understand and well-written if I can get it) go to:

Chaos Theory:Interface with Jungian Psychology by Gerald Schueler

http://www.schuelers.com/chaos/chaos1.htm Maybe you will firm up the connections to Lost that I can't.

[losttime]

They are not one in the same by your definition, because you believe John has always been MiB. For the people who don't believe John has always been MiB, myself included, this isn't evidence that John and MiB are not one in the same. I don't believe John was taken over by MiB until Ajira 316 crashed on the Island so, in my opinion, John and the Smoke Monster could be seen together before the crash of 316.

This is an interesting thread. It is circumstantial as stated, becuase one possible explanation for "Alex" appearing so suddenly after Smokie's apparent retreat is that Smokie is capable of breaking itself into pieces. Which we have seen before.

I'm not saying Smokie and MiB are definitely one in the same. But if they are, this is one explanation as to why the could be, even given 3-d's examples. If the Smoke Monster and MiB are indeed to seperate entities, it would seem they are working together to accomplish the same goals.

I am with you on this. I still think that MiB is Smokie but have also acknowledged that if not one in the same they are definitely on the same page. If you saw that video I linked about Mib and Smokie being the same it was very well done and very plausible. We know Smokie can also move very fast so why isnt it possible that after we see Smokie disappear it doesnt just come flying around behind Ben and appear as Alex. JL just so happens ot show up right after Alex disappears? intersting he is not there to hear the commotion or Alex talking to Ben or when he finds out that Alex was talking to Ben that he wasnt curious about that. Wouldnt he be curious to know why she was brought back from the dead as well if he is saying that its because he is the Leader now that Jacob made him this way. But interstingly enough he was only interested in what she said not that she was "alive" or appeared to ben

[berelain3]

I think the writers are having a lot of fun when they're reading all this speculation...

I think that John Locke,before he's killed, knows more than he lets us to believe,he knows things that just isn't average knowledge.
The 5 year old Locke made a smoke-monster drawing,etc,etc. Like he always unconsciencly(??) knew Smokie was his destiny.On the island he's rambling on about talking to the island. Smokie is the island.

Locke was killed by Ben and he's been dead ever since.

Jacob and mib talk about a loophole in the 1850's Locke and Jacob talk about a loophole in 2007. which makes us believe Locke is Mib.

The smoke-monster is always conveniently present when dead loved -ones appear. Christian sits in Jack's office when the smokedetector goes off. And Christian is not seen again after Locke is found alive among the ajira-people.

Ofcourse Smokie is the Alex-manifestation because he/she tells him to follow Locke,because Locke is Smokie and Smokie is Alex at that point.

Untill the start of season 6 I'm gonna stick with the Locke=Smokie=Mib-theory.

This is fun!! :D

[losttime]

I think the writers are having a lot of fun when they're reading all this speculation...

I think that John Locke,before he's killed, knows more than he lets us to believe,he knows things that just isn't average knowledge.
The 5 year old Locke made a smoke-monster drawing,etc,etc. Like he always unconsciencly(??) knew Smokie was his destiny.On the island he's rambling on about talking to the island. Smokie is the island.

Locke was killed by Ben and he's been dead ever since.

Jacob and mib talk about a loophole in the 1850's Locke and Jacob talk about a loophole in 2007. which makes us believe Locke is Mib.

The smoke-monster is always conveniently present when dead loved -ones appear. Christian sits in Jack's office when the smokedetector goes off. And Christian is not seen again after Locke is found alive among the ajira-people.

Ofcourse Smokie is the Alex-manifestation because he/she tells him to follow Locke,because Locke is Smokie and Smokie is Alex at that point.

Untill the start of season 6 I'm gonna stick with the Locke=Smokie=Mib-theory.

This is fun!! :D

I agree that JL most liekly knew more than he told any one other than possibly Walt. But I dont think that means he was MiB since birth or when they crashed on 815. People can be influenced to do things see things fel things and "know" things. But yes, I agree that Locke is MIB who I also think is Smokie. I am abut 80% sure they are the same but have a little doubt as well. What I am confident is that if they arent the same they are closely working hand in hand.

[losttime]

In a previous post it was mentioned that Ben was being judged for letting an Other die. I dont believe that is so. For one he never thought she would be killed based on what he said to himself about "He broke the rules" and what he said to Widmore in Widmore's Penthouse. He also said to Miles that Keamy and his men have made a mistake capturing any of his people(Others) because they are all willing to die in servitude to the Island. Alex was an Other so this still applies to her. Its only became an issue for Ben because now his "daughter" was involved and that was the only time he cared who was out there held captive. Also if Smokie is the one the judges you than why was Juliet put before her peers to be judged for killing Pickett and not have to go before Smokie to be "judged"? And if Juliet was just following Bens orders, than Ben should be judged for killing Pickett as well who was an Other. So this idea of Ben being "judged" for killing an Other I think is not whats going on here and Ben was simply being set up By Smokie and Alex(Smokie) and iLocke, if MiB and Smokey arent the same

[3d-aholic]

Thats not a revelation.
MIBLocke already implied in the show he really went to the smoke monster to ask for forgiveness.

[jd95]

Since we are talking some rather circumstantial evidence, we have been given plenty of evidence that Locke = Smokie and therefore Smokie = MiB. Or at least Smokie is some kind of "pet" of MiB's who does his bidding.

When Ben summoned Smokie, we are told that it is about to come out of the jungle. What comes out? Locke. This is more than a subtle hint.

When Ben tells JL he doesn't know where Smokie "lives", Locke immediately says he does, to which Ben even asks what is it like to just know things?

When Ben falls in hole in the temple Locke disappears, apparently to find something to help Ben with. Smokie appears, then becomes Alex, then she disappears, and then Locke reappears. Again, not too subtle.

[losttime]

Thats not a revelation.
MIBLocke already implied in the show he really went to the smoke monster to ask for forgiveness.

If I can ask when did MIBLocke imply he went to Smoke monster to be judged?

[boutte]

Yes very suspicious, like Clark Kent and Superman never seen together.

Thank you .

[beachblinkette]

In a previous post it was mentioned that Ben was being judged for letting an Other die. I dont believe that is so. For one he never thought she would be killed based on what he said to himself about "He broke the rules" and what he said to Widmore in Widmore's Penthouse. He also said to Miles that Keamy and his men have made a mistake capturing any of his people(Others) because they are all willing to die in servitude to the Island. Alex was an Other so this still applies to her. Its only became an issue for Ben because now his "daughter" was involved and that was the only time he cared who was out there held captive. Also if Smokie is the one the judges you than why was Juliet put before her peers to be judged for killing Pickett and not have to go before Smokie to be "judged"? And if Juliet was just following Bens orders, than Ben should be judged for killing Pickett as well who was an Other. So this idea of Ben being "judged" for killing an Other I think is not whats going on here and Ben was simply being set up By Smokie and Alex(Smokie) and iLocke, if MiB and Smokey arent the same

Lottime was it you who put the Kenny youtube recaps of Lost on here? If so, thanks a lot. They were worth the time!! Now to play devil's advocate....


The rules say that if you are wearing your seat belt and there's an accident......

The rules say that if you have a life vest on and you fall into the sea and can't swim.....

The rules say that if you are ejected out of an airplane high up in the sky w/o a parachute.....

If the rules say that an impatient, deranged and angry killer is sent by your hated enemy who is holding your daughter's life in his hands will follow the rules....and YOU have utter faith and belief in those rules being kept, then haven't you taken an awful chance on the rules? Maybe Ben had to SAVE FACE. and until much later couldn't admit the obvious to himself. His initial denial that "he broke the rules" seems like a self-deception to me. We all do this to a lesser or greater degree, to assuage guilt, I think. Just sayin'......

[losttime]

Lottime was it you who put the Kenny youtube recaps of Lost on here? If so, thanks a lot. They were worth the time!! Now to play devil's advocate....


The rules say that if you are wearing your seat belt and there's an accident......

The rules say that if you have a life vest on and you fall into the sea and can't swim.....

The rules say that if you are ejected out of an airplane high up in the sky w/o a parachute.....

If the rules say that an impatient, deranged and angry killer is sent by your hated enemy who is holding your daughter's life in his hands will follow the rules....and YOU have utter faith and belief in those rules being kept, then haven't you taken an awful chance on the rules? Maybe Ben had to SAVE FACE. and until much later couldn't admit the obvious to himself. His initial denial that "he broke the rules" seems like a self-deception to me. We all do this to a lesser or greater degree, to assuage guilt, I think. Just sayin'......

I see your point. But if Ben had time to think about it maybe it would have been different. he clearly did not believe his daughter would not be killed but used to get him out. He was more than shocked and the rules(whatever they are) indicated that.

I am not sure what the kenny youtube thing is so i dont think it was me