Is Hawking working with MIB or Jacob?

[islander]

Sorry if this has been discussed. I attempted to search the topic and did not find any related topics.

Hawking was adamant that Jack take Locke back or "God help us all". Suppose that story about recreating the circumstances of 815 was a lie since Illana and her crew were on 316 and they had nothing to do with 815 yet the plane still found the island.

Suppose Hawking sent dead Locke back because she is helping MIB secure his loophole? Or is she helping Jacob to get his Losties back to the island to fulfill his grand plan - let MIB get his loophole but then defeat MIB some how some way after MIB kills him? Ben also insisted Locke return to the island. Is he in on it too?

Thoughts?

[chester]

I thought the loop-hole was notLocke telling Locke to kill himself (through Richard). And that Ben was just following "the rules" when he killed Locke after having talked him out of killing himself - that is he was performing the 'course correction' following his interference with events?

[abcd1234]

I dont think nemesis grande is creating a loophole because he is not actually locke, so he isnt telling richard to tell himself to die, he is telling locke. if locke doesnt do this, NG doesnt cease to exist per say, he just may not be able to be locke. then again if the island wanted locke dead he would have died anyway. and then again again ben could have still killed him. then again again again locke could have died of a gunshot wound a la ethan.

the time travel loophole I thought was with the compass

the loophole involving nemisto and jacob I thought was something to do with NP not being able to kill jacob, perhaps because he had no physical form (which disputes his being smokey idea)

one of my earlier ideas was that the reason they wanted to find all these children is because there was some sort of ressurrection story. I had thought jacob but that was before NG was introduced. if ben and everyone thought jacob lived in the cabin, but it was NG maybe he was the one giving out the lists etc.

[ortrules]

Hawking was adamant that Jack take Locke back or "God help us all". Suppose that story about recreating the circumstances of 815 was a lie since Illana and her crew were on 316 and they had nothing to do with 815 yet the plane still found the island.

I hope so. The whole "recreating 815" thing was really really stupid, in my opinion, so I think it would be better if it turns out Hawking made all that up simply to get Locke's body back to the island.

[Desi420]

I dont think nemesis grande is creating a loophole because he is not actually locke, so he isnt telling richard to tell himself to die, he is telling locke. if locke doesnt do this, NG doesnt cease to exist per say, he just may not be able to be locke. then again if the island wanted locke dead he would have died anyway. and then again again ben could have still killed him. then again again again locke could have died of a gunshot wound a la ethan.

the time travel loophole I thought was with the compass

the loophole involving nemisto and jacob I thought was something to do with NP not being able to kill jacob, perhaps because he had no physical form (which disputes his being smokey idea)

one of my earlier ideas was that the reason they wanted to find all these children is because there was some sort of ressurrection story. I had thought jacob but that was before NG was introduced. if ben and everyone thought jacob lived in the cabin, but it was NG maybe he was the one giving out the lists etc.

I thought Ben never saw Jacob and the lists came from Richard. Richard has direct contact with Jacob and brings the info to the Other's leader. What I find weird is when Richard took Ben to the temple, an other says something like " What about widmore and Elli" Richard answers " I don't answer to them, But iLocke requests to see Jacob with Ben and Richard tells him only 2 people can enter, Richard being one of them, iLocke says that he will take Ben insted.... Richard goes along with it. Even though it seems to be a cardnal rule.

[Dzbabykel]

Sorry I keep posting this everywhere but its sort of an "epiphany" to me haha and it seems to go well under here.

I introduced the parallels between Jacob and Esau and how in the bible they're referenced as deuling twins where Esau vows to kills his brother Jacob to take back what was originally his. We know that they introduce biblical references throughout Lost so I don't think this is far off.

Back to the show, remember when Jack was introduced to the Others and watched as they ritualistically sent bodies of the dead out to the water on a raft? Well Juliet told Jack that it was so the bodies wouldn't be occupied by spirits.

Well we know that currently Locke's body is outside the temple while Flocke just killed Jacob inside. WHAT IF somehow Jacob's spirits inhabits that of old Locke?? Sounds kinda crazy that there would be TWO Locke's roaming the island but wouldn't that make the ultimate twist.....good vs. evil, black vs. white, etc. That may be why Illana felt it was so important to bring the body of Locke to the temple when she found out MIB (we think) escaped the house. They had to hurry because they knew he had found a loophole. And, as you said, Eloise was adament on the losties bring Locke's body back to the island for "the sake of mankind" so I definitely think she could be working with Jacob.

This goes back to the parallels with Jacob and Esau = TWINS! :eek:

[islander]

I hope so. The whole "recreating 815" thing was really really stupid, in my opinion, so I think it would be better if it turns out Hawking made all that up simply to get Locke's body back to the island.

Do you still think both Jacob and MIB have "used" Christian's body? Didn't you notice that Christian dresses differently from time to time and what he's wearing might indicate who is "using" him at the time?

[Dzbabykel]

Do you still think both Jacob and MIB have "used" Christian's body? Didn't you notice that Christian dresses differently from time to time and what he's wearing might indicate who is "using" him at the time?

I've thought of that too, I'd like to go back and watch the episodes where he's wearing white shoes and the ones where he is wearing either no shoes or dark shoes. I think that is totally plausible and may show his different "agenda's" depending on who he's inhabited by.

[islander]

I've thought of that too, I'd like to go back and watch the episodes where he's wearing white shoes and the ones where he is wearing either no shoes or dark shoes. I think that is totally plausible and may show his different "agenda's" depending on who he's inhabited by.


Your post reminded me of Ort's old post.

What I am getting at is it seems Jacob has been torturing Ben for years: Jacob always kept Ben on the "outside". Ben never saw Jacob, yet Locke was able to. Ben was instructed to just follow Jacob's orders regarding the list of Losties without being filled in on Jacob's big picture. When Ben turned the FDW, he yelled up to Jacob, "Are you happy now". I think Jacob was intentionally building up Ben's resentment toward Jacob as far as I can remember. Couple that with Hawking insisting on sending dead Locke back, and it seems to me Jacob had planned his own death. He knew MIB would inhabit Flocke and he knew Ben would follow Flocke's advice since he engineered Ben's resentment over the years.

Also, Smokey via Alex, told Ben to follow Flocke which confirms MIB is likely Smokie/Flocke unless of course Smokie is Jacob who was still trying to get Ben to follow Flocke's advice, but I doubt it.

[Dzbabykel]

Your post reminded me of Ort's old post.

What I am getting at is it seems Jacob has been torturing Ben for years: Jacob always kept Ben on the "outside". Ben never saw Jacob, yet Locke was able to. Ben was instructed to just follow Jacob's orders regarding the list of Losties without being filled in on Jacob's big picture. When Ben turned the FDW, he yelled up to Jacob, "Are you happy now". I think Jacob was intentionally building up Ben's resentment toward Jacob as far as I can remember. Couple that with Hawking insisting on sending dead Locke back, and it seems to me Jacob had planned his own death. He knew MIB would inhabit Flocke and he knew Ben would follow Flocke's advice since he engineered Ben's resentment over the years.

Also, Smokey via Alex, told Ben to follow Flocke which confirms MIB is likely Smokie/Flocke unless of course Smokie is Jacob who was still trying to get Ben to follow Flocke's advice, but I doubt it.

Oh ok yah I definitely see what you're saying. I said something very similar to that in the theories section....that makes total sense that Jacob would have been feuling Ben's hatred this whole time because he ultimately knew that Ben was going to kill him one day....he needed to die in order to inhabit Locke's body and to fight off Flocke. I like it :p

[wedge]

So Hawking and Widmore could be aligned with MIB??

[yokogleeton]

Back to the show, remember when Jack was introduced to the Others and watched as they ritualistically sent bodies of the dead out to the water on a raft? Well Juliet told Jack that it was so the bodies wouldn't be occupied by spirits.

Dz, you sure Juliet said this? That would be a pretty big clue to the greater goings on, if they knew the dead would be posessed...

As it is they make sure to float them out and give the viking funeral...

[Desi420]

I've thought of that too, I'd like to go back and watch the episodes where he's wearing white shoes and the ones where he is wearing either no shoes or dark shoes. I think that is totally plausible and may show his different "agenda's" depending on who he's inhabited by.
I don't think its the shoes, but the light grey rob versus the black suit. What if talking christen is Jacob and the quiet dark suit is mib.... or vise versa rather.

[Dzbabykel]

Dz, you sure Juliet said this? That would be a pretty big clue to the greater goings on, if they knew the dead would be posessed...

As it is they make sure to float them out and give the viking funeral...

You know I looked up the transcript and it does not say it but for some reason I remember it being said....I'm gonna keep looking though but my apologies if I'm wrong!

[yokogleeton]

You know I looked up the transcript and it does not say it but for some reason I remember it being said....I'm gonna keep looking though but my apologies if I'm wrong!

well thats why i asked. I looked at the transcript, and didnt see it, but i also didnt remember it. let me know if you can lock it down. i'll go back and check that scene out when i get a chance.

[Dzbabykel]

well thats why i asked. I looked at the transcript, and didnt see it, but i also didnt remember it. let me know if you can lock it down. i'll go back and check that scene out when i get a chance.

I'm starting to wonder if it was a scene with Richard....remember when Locke and Richard are talking when he's over at the Others' camp? I'm wondering if he may have mentioned something about "the dead" on the island, but that wouldn't make sense because as far as we know they buried people (and threw them in pits lol)...guess I was wrong, not sure why I was so sure of that? :confused:

[islander]

So Hawking and Widmore could be aligned with MIB??

I'm not sure about Widmore. His conversation with Locke in Tunisia made me believe he was a bit out of the loop on current events on the island.

Regarding Hawking - that's why I asked the question. I think she's working for Jacob but I am open to suggestions.

[islander]

I thought the loop-hole was notLocke telling Locke to kill himself (through Richard). And that Ben was just following "the rules" when he killed Locke after having talked him out of killing himself - that is he was performing the 'course correction' following his interference with events?

Burninglotus77 on another thread titled "Did Jacob save Ben causing the loophole" asked when Richard 'saved' young/shot Ben did that create the loophole?

I guess you could ask if the loophole was created the day Ben was born if you believe Ben was destined to end up on the island.

[Dzbabykel]

Burninglotus77 on another thread titled "Did Jacob save Ben causing the loophole" asked when Richard 'saved' young/shot Ben did that create the loophole?

I guess you could ask if the loophole was created the day Ben was born if you believe Ben was destined to end up on the island.

I kinda think Jacob always knew that Ben would be destined to kill him (not sure which thread discusses this but it makes good sense)....perhaps the whole temple healing/changing Ben thing was always supposed to happen?

[chester]

I'm starting to wonder if it was a scene with Richard....remember when Locke and Richard are talking when he's over at the Others' camp? I'm wondering if he may have mentioned something about "the dead" on the island, but that wouldn't make sense because as far as we know they buried people (and threw them in pits lol)...guess I was wrong, not sure why I was so sure of that? :confused:

Richard said something about the importance of dead bodies in La Fleur, I think.

Edit: no he doesn't, but there is definitely something up with dead bodies.

[Dzbabykel]

Richard said something about the importance of dead bodies in La Fleur, I think.

Edit: no he doesn't, but there is definitely something up with dead bodies.

Yeah I DEFINITELY remember an important conversation between one of the Others and one of the Losties but for the life of me can't remember when or where it was. Uggh haha I shall continue to look :confused::rolleyes:

[islander]

Yeah I DEFINITELY remember an important conversation between one of the Others and one of the Losties but for the life of me can't remember when or where it was. Uggh haha I shall continue to look :confused::rolleyes:

I thought Juliet made some tongue in cheek comment about dead bodies not staying dead on the island - season 4, I think.

[Desi420]

I'm not sure about Widmore. His conversation with Locke in Tunisia made me believe he was a bit out of the loop on current events on the island.

Regarding Hawking - that's why I asked the question. I think she's working for Jacob but I am open to suggestions.

I think Hawking has her own agenda. With Daniel, but she does tell Widmore that she sacrificed her son in season 5