WHHers - who's your daddy?

[islander]

What's Des doing on 815?

[Dzbabykel]

What the f!#%^#&%$^%#@^ is going ON?!?!?!?!?! :eek::eek:

[jd95]

It seems Jacob needed Hurley to communicate with after he was dead... not sure what's happening yet, but that whole "underwater" thing was cool as hell!

[Baibe]

Hell yea for under water thing... so will the whole season be like a two worlds type of thing? I'm not sure how I feel about that

[ortrules]

Premature thread?

Likely.

We don't know what any of this means, and WHH still applies to the original timeline.

[jd95]

Hell yea for under water thing... so will the whole season be like a two worlds type of thing? I'm not sure how I feel about that

Yeah, I wasn't crazy with that being the theory, but now that's what we have we have to run with it. So far so good.

[Dzbabykel]

It seems Jacob needed Hurley to communicate with after he was dead... not sure what's happening yet, but that whole "underwater" thing was cool as hell!

YEAH! That gave me chills! This whole episode is giving me chills!!:eek:

[Baibe]

I don't think it could go on like this for the whole season... at least I hope not

And I agree Ort. It is kinda of cool that Jules is still alive because she originally didn't die in 1977 so she can't die now in 1977 which would prove that WHH is still true... But of course that could be a premature thought as well.

[Dzbabykel]

Premature thread?

Likely.

We don't know what any of this means, and WHH still applies to the original timeline.

Yet apparently so does TCC?? I'm soo confused :confused::confused:

[notsolost42]

It seems Jacob needed Hurley to communicate with after he was dead... not sure what's happening yet, but that whole "underwater" thing was cool as hell!

That's what the glyphs in the temple basement said when I translated them.

[dino32]

What's Des doing on 815?

I thought that too... but if you think about it, if the bomb went off in '77 and the island is apparently (currently) underwater, then Des never gets stuck there, So its is possible for him to be on that flight, for what ever reason i have no clue.

[orsonkidd]

Premature thread?

Likely.

We don't know what any of this means, and WHH still applies to the original timeline.

This.

Yet apparently so does TCC?? I'm soo confused :confused::confused:

I never saw the two as mutually exclusive. ;)

[Dzbabykel]

I thought that too... but if you think about it, if the bomb went off in '77 and the island is apparently (currently) underwater, then Des never gets stuck there, So its is possible for him to be on that flight, for what ever reason i have no clue.

What worries me about Des being on the plane is if Widmore somehow dies in 1977 (if he was still somewhere on the island) then Penny is never born which means Desmond never needed the sailboat to win Widmore over......that would be terrible though!!:(

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

Very interesting to say the least:

- if Flight 815 never crashes, then how do the Losties go back in time to set off the bomb that prevents Flight 815 from crashing?
- We see that the hatch still imploded, and the Losties are still on the island. Are we witnessing two co-existing timelines? (one of Notso's theories, i.e. separate universes)
- I worry that the Flight 815 never crashing scenario could be some sort of reset that will happen at the very end, and we're just catching a glimpse of it in bits and pieces; not a big fan of the undo function

If I had my druthers, they'd be setting the table for an apparent TCC, and then come back and slam us all with the inevitable WHH. :D

[jlazarus]

Very interesting to say the least:

- if Flight 815 never crashes, then how do the Losties go back in time to set off the bomb that prevents Flight 815 from crashing?
- We see that the hatch still imploded, and the Losties are still on the island. Are we witnessing two co-existing timelines? (one of Notso's theories, i.e. separate universes)
- I worry that the Flight 815 never crashing scenario could be some sort of reset that will happen at the very end, and we're just catching a glimpse of it in bits and pieces; not a big fan of the undo function

If I had my druthers, they'd be setting the table for an apparent TCC, and then come back and slam us all with the inevitable WHH. :D

I've been thinking something along those lines all along. I have some detailed posts here about WHH and variables/constants...Chaos to ORder, Universe correcting, etc...

Kind of like Charlie saying he was 'supposed to die'...btw, I don't think these LAX scenes are real. Then again, I'm not convinced that the previous flashbacks from earlier seasons are "real" either, so.....:)

[Dzbabykel]

- I worry that the Flight 815 never crashing scenario could be some sort of reset that will happen at the very end, and we're just catching a glimpse of it in bits and pieces; not a big fan of the undo function

:D

That's actually a great point!

[InTheBeginning]

on my local abc news just a few minutes ago, they said "from the producers of LOST, what you're watching are 'what-ifs' the plane never crashed"

WTF does that mean? :confused:

So the losties are really still on the island, finally all at the same time now

Locke is dead

MIB is smokie taking Locke's form "Sorry you had to see me like taht" great line!

Sayid is dead...no wait, he's alive!

Jules is dead...and buried,,,for now

Who the hell is the Japanese guy leading the others?? and why didn't Ricardus know what the rocket/flare was for?

Holy crap my brain is fried!

[islander]

Premature thread?

Likely.

We don't know what any of this means, and WHH still applies to the original timeline.

Oh...that hurts....does "denial" come first or is it "rationalization" :o

That underwater scene was spooky. It reminded me of the submerged 815 that Widmore allegedly masterminded.

[chester]

This.



I never saw the two as mutually exclusive. ;)

"Whatever happened, happened" doesnt exclude anything. It is a statement that can never be wrong, and can apply to all theories on time-travel.

A fixed timeline vs a non-fixed timeline, are mutually exclusive, however.

[ortrules]

A fixed timeline vs a non-fixed timeline, are mutually exclusive, however.

Not in the way they've presented this so far.

Jack (on the island) believes that his experiment failed. He has no knowledge that it was "successful" on whatever level it is that we're seeing. So on this original timeline, WHH is still in place. Jack hasn't changed anything as far as he is concerned - the hatch still imploded, he ran into a former crash survivor (Cindy), and eventually he'll find himself reunited with Sun/Frank/Ben and everyone else. In this timeline, it is still fixed.

However, there may now be an alternate universe that resulted from his change. This timeline seems to be wholly independent from the main timeline where 815 does crash. It seems, so far, that they are presenting the idea that you can change the past/future, but you don't change your past/future.

[chester]

A change is a change. More than one timeline, is not compatible with a one fixed timeline.

[Pung]

on my local abc news just a few minutes ago, they said "from the producers of LOST, what you're watching are 'what-ifs' the plane never crashed"

WTF does that mean? :confused:

So the losties are really still on the island, finally all at the same time now

Locke is dead

MIB is smokie taking Locke's form "Sorry you had to see me like taht" great line!

Sayid is dead...no wait, he's alive!

Jules is dead...and buried,,,for now

Who the hell is the Japanese guy leading the others?? and why didn't Ricardus know what the rocket/flare was for?

Holy crap my brain is fried!

I think richard did know what the flare meant and his look was fear, not confusion. Once Flocke came out of the FTS, he told Ilana & Co. not to shoot because he knew that wouldnt do anything

[islander]

Not in the way they've presented this so far.

Jack (on the island) believes that his experiment failed. He has no knowledge that it was "successful" on whatever level it is that we're seeing. So on this original timeline, WHH is still in place. Jack hasn't changed anything as far as he is concerned - the hatch still imploded, he ran into a former crash survivor (Cindy), and eventually he'll find himself reunited with Sun/Frank/Ben and everyone else. In this timeline, it is still fixed.

However, there may now be an alternate universe that resulted from his change. This timeline seems to be wholly independent from the main timeline where 815 does crash. It seems, so far, that they are presenting the idea that you can change the past/future, but you don't change your past/future.

True but Juliet told Sawyer (through Miles) that Jack's experiment worked, didn't she? The fact that Jack hasn't made that revelation doesn't mean it didn't work.

[ortrules]

True but Juliet told Sawyer (through Miles) that Jack's experiment worked, didn't she?

I think she meant "it worked" in the sense that Juliet was able to let go of Sawyer and not have to deal with the grief of losing him - which is the reason she agreed to help Jack in the first place.

[islander]

I think richard did know what the flare meant and his look was fear, not confusion. Once Flocke came out of the FTS, he told Ilana & Co. not to shoot because he knew that wouldnt do anything

I saw the same fear - I think that flare was the "Oh Sh@t Flare". :D

[islander]

I think she meant "it worked" in the sense that Juliet was able to let go of Sawyer and not have to deal with the grief of losing him - which is the reason she agreed to help Jack in the first place.

I'll have to ponder that but it's possible.

[islander]

A change is a change. More than one timeline, is not compatible with a one fixed timeline.

Exactly.....

[Pung]

Right Juliet's comment was way too ambiguous to draw any fine lines. I like character development and relationship development on the show, but the Sawyer/Juliet thing got way too difficult between the S5 finale and last nights premier. So her statement that "it worked" could mean two different things

[Brother Desmond]

Right Juliet's comment was way too ambiguous to draw any fine lines. I like character development and relationship development on the show, but the Sawyer/Juliet thing got way too difficult between the S5 finale and last nights premier. So her statement that "it worked" could mean two different things

It could. And we don't know what exactly Juliet meant by "it worked" yet.

However, I wouldn't surprised if when Juliet detonated the bomb she experienced something similar to Desmond's experience after the Swan station was imploded. Maybe she was able to see and be in the alternate timeline before coming back to the original timeline with James.

[islander]

It could. And we don't know what exactly Juliet meant by "it worked" yet.

However, I wouldn't surprised if when Juliet detonated the bomb she experienced something similar to Desmond's experience after the Swan station was imploded. Maybe she was able to see and be in the alternate timeline before coming back to the original timeline with James.

I like that explanantion - somehow she's aware of the other timeline.

[Desi420]

It could. And we don't know what exactly Juliet meant by "it worked" yet.

However, I wouldn't surprised if when Juliet detonated the bomb she experienced something similar to Desmond's experience after the Swan station was imploded. Maybe she was able to see and be in the alternate timeline before coming back to the original timeline with James.

I think we are gonna find out there was more to it. Miles starts to tell Sawyer what Juliette had said but it cut away to another scene. So we didn't get the whole message. Just my opinion.

I have a question though. About Des, did he vanish, or simply walk away?

Do you thing Jack will heal John?

[abcd1234]

course correction is coming!

[Dzbabykel]

Do you thing Jack will heal John?

I think that would be sooo cool if that happened! He gave him his card so I definitely think there will be a phone call and consultation :p

[Pung]

course correction is coming!

Could you elaborate on what we saw in LA X is being corrected?

[jlazarus]

Couple of things...and I do realize this might have been difficult to shoot, but then again, they do shoot things over *time* and could have incorporated this, but..

Jack's hair is all wrong on the plane. It's long, just like in his CURRENT timeline on the island. It should be short, cropped close to his head - not long enough to part down the side. Same for Sawyer. And Charlie's hair is the opposite - it should be longer, not cut so short (Unless he went and got a hair cut before getting on the plane).

And Charlie does say he was "supposed to die"...

I think the LAX scenes are not real. But then, I am not sure what does = real in Lost. :) I think these scenes are "what ifs", or alternate universe possibilities maybe, but not even sure of that right now....seemed more like a dream.

Then again, maybe the LAX scenes are more 'real' and the previous flashbacks we've enjoyed for so long (and assumed were real, and historic) were NOT. Maybe the flashbacks are the "what ifs". Maybe we have assumed the wrong things as facts.

[Dzbabykel]

Couple of things...and I do realize this might have been difficult to shoot, but then again, they do shoot things over *time* and could have incorporated this, but..

Jack's hair is all wrong on the plane. It's long, just like in his CURRENT timeline on the island. It should be short, cropped close to his head - not long enough to part down the side. Same for Sawyer. And Charlie's hair is the opposite - it should be longer, not cut so short (Unless he went and got a hair cut before getting on the plane).



I actually agree with this, there are SOOO many opposite things going on, like Jack getting 1 vodka bottle and not 2, Rose being calm while Jack is not, Locke lacking faith while Jack has faith, etc. I think they're all little significant things but no idea as to why yet! :eek:

[ortrules]

I actually agree with this, there are SOOO many opposite things going on, like Jack getting 1 vodka bottle and not 2, Rose being calm while Jack is not, Locke lacking faith while Jack has faith, etc. I think they're all little significant things but no idea as to why yet! :eek:

And for all the differences, there are many parallel things happening.

Jack needs someone to find a pen to save someone else, but manages to do without.
Sayid helps Jack with his plan.
Charlie says "I was supposed to die"

It was all very well done by the writers.

[Dzbabykel]

And for all the differences, there are many parallel things happening.

Jack needs someone to find a pen to save someone else, but manages to do without.
Sayid helps Jack with his plan.
Charlie says "I was supposed to die"

It was all very well done by the writers.

Yeah and Jack also says the same thing to Desmond, "don't I know you from somewhere" like he did when he saw him in the hatch"....god I love this show!!

[islander]

I actually agree with this, there are SOOO many opposite things going on, like Jack getting 1 vodka bottle and not 2, Rose being calm while Jack is not, Locke lacking faith while Jack has faith, etc. I think they're all little significant things but no idea as to why yet! :eek:

I think some pre-815 experiences were changed somehow. Locke still went on his walkabout so did he still meet Abbadon? Jack still went to get his dad. Was Claire pregnant on the plane? Where was Shannon? Why would Hurley go to Australia if he had good luck? Charlie was suicidal not merely an addict so was Driveshaft a failure - he was wearing the DS ring? Kate was still in the marshall's custody.

[Dzbabykel]

I think some pre-815 experiences were changed somehow. Locke still went on his walkabout so did he still meet Abbadon? Jack still went to get his dad. Was Claire pregnant on the plane? Where was Shannon? Why would Hurley go to Australia if he had good luck? Charlie was suicidal not merely an addict so was Driveshaft a failure - he was wearing the DS ring? Kate was still in the marshall's custody.

Well that's a difference too....Locke wasn't allowed on the walkabout before but this time he went on in it, unless he was lying to Boone to make himself appear stronger than he is. I doubt he was lying though. And I'm wondering if Shannon wasn't on the plane because Jack actually chose to fix her dad at the hospital instead of Sarah, saving her father which in turn stopped her step-mom from cutting her off from all the money which means she wouldn't need Boone's help?

Also we don't even know if Claire was on that plane....maybe it was another one? Maybe she wasn't even pregnat? Ahh soo many questions!!

[abcd1234]

i am posting the same thing over and over again in other threads - to the same people!

locke wouldnt have gone on a walkabout in the first place if widmore didnt put abaddon in the hospital to tell him to do it.

[Dzbabykel]

i am posting the same thing over and over again in other threads - to the same people!

locke wouldnt have gone on a walkabout in the first place if widmore didnt put abaddon in the hospital to tell him to do it.

Haha calm down, thats the first I've ever read that you posted that, there are TONS of threads going right now, its not like we can read them all! :p

[losttime]

It seems Jacob needed Hurley to communicate with after he was dead... not sure what's happening yet, but that whole "underwater" thing was cool as hell!

I still think that is not Jacob talking to Hurley now.

Look what happened when HUrley told the people at the Temple Jacob was dead.

If Jacob is more powerful now being dead, why is everyone at the Temple freaking out and using the ash ring to protect themselves from Smokey .

But I would like to say that I am glad I was right on a few of my theories tonight:D:D

[ortrules]

i am posting the same thing over and over again in other threads - to the same people!

locke wouldnt have gone on a walkabout in the first place if widmore didnt put abaddon in the hospital to tell him to do it.

How long was Locke paralyzed before boarding 815? The island sunk sometime after the Others took over - so it could be that Widmore had Abaddon tell Locke about the walkabout and then something happened to cause the island to sink.

[islander]

Well that's a difference too....Locke wasn't allowed on the walkabout before but this time he went on in it, unless he was lying to Boone to make himself appear stronger than he is. I doubt he was lying though. And I'm wondering if Shannon wasn't on the plane because Jack actually chose to fix her dad at the hospital instead of Sarah, saving her father which in turn stopped her step-mom from cutting her off from all the money which means she wouldn't need Boone's help?

Also we don't even know if Claire was on that plane....maybe it was another one? Maybe she wasn't even pregnat? Ahh soo many questions!!

I thought we saw Claire sitting on the plane.

[Dzbabykel]

I thought we saw Claire sitting on the plane.

Maybe but I sure didn't see her, and I was looking for her the whole time. I could be wrong though! :)

[abcd1234]

I dont recall seeing her on the plane, but she was definately at the airport in a cab with kate. I have to assume its too much coincidence that she wasnt on the plane.

How do you know when the island sank? was there something on the underwater scene that was created post jughead explosion?

[Dzbabykel]

My feeling is the writers do everything strategically and on purpose....I think if they wanted us to know Claire was on the plane, they would have clearly shown her. But they didn't...which makes me wonder why? She was obviously ON a plane as she was in a cab at the airport but perhaps she wasn't coming from Australia or something? She could have been on 815 but then again its not definite.

[abcd1234]

anything is possible.

[Brother Desmond]

How long was Locke paralyzed before boarding 815? The island sunk sometime after the Others took over - so it could be that Widmore had Abaddon tell Locke about the walkabout and then something happened to cause the island to sink.

In the original timeline Locke told the person in Australia that he had lived with his condition for 4 years. So he became paralyzed at some point in the year 2004.

In this new timeline Locke could have become paralyzed at any time and could have decided to go on a walkabout for any number of reasons.

[jlazarus]

I agree that we saw pre-815 changes. I was just posting a similar idea in another thread, but I'll repeat it here as well:

For those that think the LAX scenes are the result of an event change, what is the event?

I don't think it could be the bomb. Why? Where is Shannon on that plane? (My interpretation of what Boone said was basically that he failed at bringing her back - meaning, she's NOT on the plane).

Therefore, the scenes on the plane were the result of some change BEFORE the Losties ever even got ON the plane - not just predicated on "bomb went off, so we get to reset back on the plane". Also, Hurley says he has GOOD LUCK. Charlie doesn't run past Jack - he's already in the bathroom, etc...

Preventing the "incident" from happening was supposed to prevent the whole "push the button" thing which was supposed to prevent the plane from CRASHING - nothing else. If THAT worked, then, logically, we should have seen the exact same Losties on the plane, only the plane doesn't crash.

We saw something *different*...These were NOT the exact same Losties...Similar, yes, but not exactly the same, no.

Something ELSE is different with these Losties. Something not predicated on prevention of the incident. Something that changed BEFORE they boarded the flight which would have nothing to do with the bomb (or "prevention of the incident") at all.

[jlazarus]

I never saw Claire on the plane. She could have been on another flight or who knows. We only saw her in the taxi (at least, that's what I remember!)...

Also, Jack's hair is all wrong (Long, instead of shaved closer to his head). His hair on last night's LAX plane is just like his hair in last night's 2007 timeline. As someone else mentioned, he doesn't get the same amount of vodka. I bet next show we see even more 'changes'. These losties are not the same as our losties. Something happened to change them BEFORE they got on the plane.

Is it possible though that we have always assumed facts that were/are not facts?

Is it possible that all previous flashbacks are...not real? That those are actually 'what ifs" and these scenes are the real ones? hmmmm......

[Jasonater]

What is a WHH'er?

[losttime]

What is a WHH'er?

Its what the show is about LOL

[Jasonater]

Just give me the freakin acronym meaning! lol

[jlazarus]

Just give me the freakin acronym meaning! lol

Whatever Happened, Happened

[islander]

What is a WHH'er?

Misguided people who believe What Happened Happened :D

[jlazarus]

Misguided people who believe What Happened Happened :D
Or people that believe that, until proven wrong, the universe is still correcting :)

[friendly1013]

Misguided people who believe What Happened Happened :D

Hah! I'm on your side, they are misguided!

[Jasonater]

interesting.... definatley think that they are screwing with things that happened. They are altering events in time, (ex. the plane doesnt crash) So I dont believe in WHH.... At least as far as the show goes.

[islander]

Or people that believe that, until proven wrong, the universe is still correcting :)

So what's the ruling on somethng like that? Can course correction and WHH coexist? I don't think so since I distinctly saw 815 land in LA. And, I doubt that is actually what happens in the very end, but the WHH world has been torpedoed.

[Brother Desmond]

I think we can say that as of right now both theories are valid.

It seems WHH still applies to the original timeline. They came to the island, some left, some stayed, those who left came back and set off a bomb that carried them to a time on the island after the hatch was imploded by Desmond, and where the island isn't underwater.

In another timeline the passengers of Oceanic 815 are similar to the people we saw originally board the plane, but not exactly the same and did not crash on the island because in 2004 is was already underwater.

[jlazarus]

So what's the ruling on somethng like that? Can course correction and WHH coexist? I don't think so since I distinctly saw 815 land in LA. And, I doubt that is actually what happens in the very end, but the WHH world has been torpedoed.
I think WHH and course correction are the same. That's what course correction is - ensuring that the end result is the same.

Now, the variables can change (the details) but the end result is still the same.

And even with various time lines theory - the universe still corrects. Hence why Charlie said last night "I was supposed to die" (or something like that). I think we will see that he still does die soon.

Remember the first time we saw Eloise, Desmond was buying a ring. Then there was the whole scene where the guy was killed by the scaffolding or something. She told Desmond that it was useless to try to change that - she was telling Desmond this, sort of preparing him for his own 'flashes' with Charlie i.e., in one timeline Charlie died from lighting, etc...but in THE 2004 timeline Charlie dies at the Looking Glass.

It's as if Eloise, Ben, Charles et al have tried changing this many times, but it never really works out in the long run.

So is it possible that "Whatever Happened, Happened" (WHH) is multi-faceted? The variables can change, but the end result (the constant) doesn't. Like Desmond saving Charlie over and over....the 'how' Charlie dies changed, but the fact that Charlie still died didn't. Like x+y=z: 3 + 3 = 6; 4 + 2 also = 6. 3, 4, and 2 are variables....6 is the constant.

So, each timeline has different variables, but the constant remains the same. So WHH is true, AND one can also change the past as well. Both are true, but both end up with the same result. What HAPPENED happens - it's just the details surrounding what 'happens' that can change.

That makes sense in this 'LOST' world to me Chaos ----> Order. The Chaos is the variable change - the Order is What Happened.


As far as 815 actually landing in LAX - I don't know yet that is real or just a someone's (Jack's?) dream. It's a possibility, yes, but the plane landing or crashing could also be a variable - for a bigger end result that we don't know about yet...


(Note I am not an absolutist - I do believe what I described above is a possibility - but I am quite open to the fact that WHH might just be hogwash, lol! :) I will note that last night's LAX scenes - which I don't believe are real at this point - show MANY, MANY changes, that are PRE-FLIGHT changes (Hurley's luck, Shannon not being on the plane at all, etc..) What do you suppose caused those types of 'changes', (supposing WHH is hogwash and those scenes are real)?