It Worked

[chester]

But how? It appears Dan's plan was successful, they no longer crash on the island. But they still continue on the island, after being flashed back to the same time as the rest of the Ajira passengers. So if it worked, then why was the Swan hatch still built and still imploded?

I don't think they did build the Swan hatch, I think that what they woke up to was the however old remains of the nearly-finished hatch after Juliette exploding the bomb, caused a (or brought forward the) failsafe key turning event. With a similar result.

So now when 815 flies over the island, which for some reason in '04 is then underwater, there's no Swan button not being pushed to cause the plane to crash. So they land in LA.

'Meanwhile', their former future selves who were living back in the 70's before they changed them, have been zapped back to whatever time-period the rest of the Ajira passengers are in, which we assume is '07. And I presume is the same changed reality that saw flight 815 land in LA.

I think the reality would have changed as soon as they blooped back in time off the crash-landing Ajira flight - they blooped out of existence back to the past, and following the bloop, the reality was then updated. Which they later got blooped back to once they imploded the nearly-built Swan.

I think. I don't know, it's very confusing. :confused:

[Jeremy]

I think it's pretty simple, really...

......._____(the bomb works)___2004-the island is submerged, they land in LA X
1977
......._____(the bomb doesn't work)___2007-nothing changes, they end up at the destroyed Swan station

Pretty much, it's a split timeline. Somehow, though, the two are connected, what with the deja vu Jack seems to have and Juliet saying "It worked".

I would seem though that they were always in 1977 though, as proven by the photo in the barracks as well as Richard remembering them.

[chester]

I think it's pretty simple, really...

......._____(the bomb works)___2004-the island is submerged, they land in LA X
1977
......._____(the bomb doesn't work)___2007-nothing changes, they end up at the destroyed Swan station

Pretty much, it's a split timeline. Somehow, though, the two are connected, what with the deja vu Jack seems to have and Juliet saying "It worked".

I would seem though that they were always in 1977 though, as proven by the photo in the barracks as well as Richard remembering them.

Going by that, every time there was a situation that something could have gone way or another, there would be a "split timeline somehow", possibly connected.

I'm not liking a multi-worlds interpretation at all.

[Nemesis Prime]

The only thing I kept thinking was that maybe the scenes of the successful flight 815 is actually the final outcome of the show that we are getting chunks of now. Like maybe it wasn't the bomb going off that directly lead up to that but other events that we will see in the final season.

[abcd1234]

I am very confused. I recall TPTB said after the first episode everything would be obvious and the rest of the season would be unravelling the story. However I have no idea what going on.

Are the oceanics going to be brought to the island in 2004 anyway? it seems things are all jumbled with them especially with christians body disappearing

[chester]

I think Juliette detonating the bomb had more of a changing effect on reality that just imploding the Swan so that 815 no longer crashes. I think directly after this happened, which we didn't see since the losties got flashed forward in time, there would have been other effects felt from this change, both on and off island, which, through the butterfly effect probably tampered with 'course correction', manifested in '04 as the other changes that we noticed on the plane.

[Jeremy]

Well, for one, Desmond was on the plane. Depending on whether the bomb actually killed anyone, Charles, Eloise, Penny, etc. would be gone.

Hurley doesn't have bad luck because the numbers aren't cursed...but then they would not have been broadcast, so he wouldn't know about them...perhaps he just thought them up in his head a got lucky...

Shannon apparently decided to stay in Australia. But I think this is only because Magie Grace won't return.

[chester]

I don't think it would have killed anyone. Well, not directly. Juliette died from it, but not from an actual explosion. My assumption is that detonating the bomb caused an event much like when Desmond turned the failsafe key (I'm guessing detonating the bomb is exactly what Desmond did himself when he did so), where there was just a loud noise (which would account for the hearing difficulties the losties experienced) and a purple sky. And an imploding Swan station.

Disappointed not to see Juliette naked.

[shawnv]

I was just sad that she died. I wish they never shown them digging her out, just to have her die.

I guess I'm not the only one wishing they had brought her to the temple.

[Trent9111]

if the numbers were never broadcasted then why would hurley be going to Australia? if i remember correctly it was the numbers that took him to Australia to begin with.

[draftrnpitt]

the plane must have crashed on the island, because the flight attendant (now an other) said that they were on the other half of the plane.

[az-phil]

I think it's the people that are important, not the timeline of events. What happened, happened.

Even though a new timeline has started that is different, follow the people. Somehow they are going to get back on track (meaning only one version of that person will continue on).

Those people that landed in LA are either going to die, or intersect back into a timeline that we know. Only one version of them will continue on into the final timeline.

[chester]

the plane must have crashed on the island, because the flight attendant (now an other) said that they were on the other half of the plane.

This is the confusing bit.

[ortrules]

I don't think they did build the Swan hatch, I think that what they woke up to was the however old remains of the nearly-finished hatch after Juliette exploding the bomb, caused a (or brought forward the) failsafe key turning event. With a similar result.

When Sawyer climbed through to get Juliet, you could see items like a workout bicycle and other "home" items. It was clear that someone was living there and that the Swan once existed.

[islander]

My initial read regarding "it worked" referred to Juliet's original reason to go along with Jack's plan - change time so she would not have met Sawyer, I thought. Not kill herself.

Of course, the WHHers and TCCers will hear what they/we want to hear. So you could say Juliet's "it worked" referred to her being happy to die to avoid losing Sawyer - it seems drastic to kill oneself to avoid losing someone, but unless Juliet somehow sensed there was a new timeline (which i think is the case), the WHHers have a case, albeit a weak one.

[gwynnie]

I was just sad that she died. I wish they never shown them digging her out, just to have her die.

I guess I'm not the only one wishing they had brought her to the temple.

I kept saying that, too - why didn't they bring her to the temple?? I guess dead is dead - unless - someone wants to inhabit your body and in that case ...

[gwynnie]

the plane must have crashed on the island, because the flight attendant (now an other) said that they were on the other half of the plane.


No, I think she (Cindy) said "they were on the first plane with me" (meaning Oceanic 815 not Ajira 316. No??:confused:

[gwynnie]

I think it's the people that are important, not the timeline of events. What happened, happened.

Even though a new timeline has started that is different, follow the people. Somehow they are going to get back on track (meaning only one version of that person will continue on).

Those people that landed in LA are either going to die, or intersect back into a timeline that we know. Only one version of them will continue on into the final timeline.

And could they possibly have "free will/choice" to decide WHICH timeline they want? For instance Rose and Bernard said they were happy living in the jungle alone for those 3 years - plus she believes her cancer was cured while on the island and if she returned - it would come back/continue...

Jacob keeps saying "You have a choice" - so it seems likely they can all somehow "choose" which timeline they want their lives to follow ... ??

[bunnydixon]

i just cant stop from thinking it worked is a red herring of sorts - its the start of the season they cant just be like its worked. thats that. seems too simple.

[evilcow]

Maybe, whatever happened, actually happened.

[AJboy]

One thing we are missing about the successful landing is the connections the people have.

Jack being the spine expert wanting to help Locke walk. Kate and Clare in the taxi. We she adopt the baby.

Sawyer maybe thinking about conning Hugo.

Rose and Benard seem happy.

Jack saving Charlie. Does Charlie get it together and become a big star. A turning point.

I think the show has some potential but the story lines have to add up. I am still confuse about Sun being the only survivor with Richard.

I think the survivors in the temple are playing out a good vs evil battle of souls. It is their faults as to why they are the only ones there.

[chester]

When Sawyer climbed through to get Juliet, you could see items like a workout bicycle and other "home" items. It was clear that someone was living there and that the Swan once existed.

If they were ready to put the hatch door on, wouldn't they have been nearly finished with it? Could've had that stuff down there already.

My initial read regarding "it worked" referred to Juliet's original reason to go along with Jack's plan - change time so she would not have met Sawyer, I thought. Not kill herself.

Of course, the WHHers and TCCers will hear what they/we want to hear. So you could say Juliet's "it worked" referred to her being happy to die to avoid losing Sawyer - it seems drastic to kill oneself to avoid losing someone, but unless Juliet somehow sensed there was a new timeline (which i think is the case), the WHHers have a case, albeit a weak one.

I thought they were all prepared to die via nuclear explosion. And were just expecting their consciousnesses to zap forward to the time that they are on the plane. But if detonating the bomb at the moment of the incident was to have a similar effect as Des turning the failsafe, then what we saw is pretty much what would have been expected.

[JfromtheD]

Actually, I think the 'hatch door' scene, was for drama purposes.

[chester]

i just cant stop from thinking it worked is a red herring of sorts - its the start of the season they cant just be like its worked. thats that. seems too simple.

Maybe. Looked like it worked though. I think that what they were left with was the incident as it always happened is more likely the red herring though.

Maybe, whatever happened, actually happened.

How could it not?

[Dzbabykel]

One thing we are missing about the successful landing is the connections the people have.

Jack being the spine expert wanting to help Locke walk. Kate and Clare in the taxi. We she adopt the baby.

Sawyer maybe thinking about conning Hugo.

Rose and Benard seem happy.

Jack saving Charlie. Does Charlie get it together and become a big star. A turning point.

I think the show has some potential but the story lines have to add up. I am still confuse about Sun being the only survivor with Richard.

I think the survivors in the temple are playing out a good vs evil battle of souls. It is their faults as to why they are the only ones there.

I love this....I never put two and two together with all of them. I love the idea that Sawyer will try to con Hugo and since Kate is in the taxi with Claire that she may ultimately end up being Aaron's "mother" so to speak. I think it goes to show that even if you try to change the future, the outcome will still happen the way it always was supposed to.

[chester]

Actually, I think the 'hatch door' scene, was for drama purposes.

The hole that was in the ground after detonating the bomb was much bigger than the hole of the construction site before the detonation. Wasn't it? So there must of been some Swan station underground when they detonated the bomb?

[chester]

I love this....I never put two and two together with all of them. I love the idea that Sawyer will try to con Hugo and since Kate is in the taxi with Claire that she may ultimately end up being Aaron's "mother" so to speak. I think it goes to show that even if you try to change the future, the outcome will still happen the way it always was supposed to.

What's the outcome?

[Dzbabykel]

What's the outcome?

Haha well thats the big question....I'm just saying the outcome could potentially happen the way it was supposed to...meaning Kate will end up with Aaron, Locke will end up being fixed by Jack thus restoring his faith, Charlie (now that he is arrested) may fix his heroin problem orrr he ends up dead like he does on the island, etc. It was just a thought :p

[chester]

Haha well thats the big question....I'm just saying the outcome could potentially happen the way it was supposed to...meaning Kate will end up with Aaron, Locke will end up being fixed by Jack thus restoring his faith, Charlie (now that he is arrested) may fix his heroin problem orrr he ends up dead like he does on the island, etc. It was just a thought :p

So would this be 'course correction' at work?

[JfromtheD]

The hole that was in the ground after detonating the bomb was much bigger than the hole of the construction site before the detonation. Wasn't it? So there must of been some Swan station underground when they detonated the bomb?

Sure. But there were a ton of people working down there... it looked more like, well, a construction zone.

What we saw last night was the post-fail safe Swan.
Not a post-incident Swan. (I should've been more careful how I word that.)

No jeeps, no crane, no drill, etc...

I'm actually not even sure if I'm disagreeing with you. :o

[Dzbabykel]

So would this be 'course correction' at work?

Yeah I guess so....I'm not on any specific bandwagon if you will....I still don't know which theory I believe (WHH, TCC, or any of the others)...I'm still in limbo :p

[natego]

I think what she said before dying is relevant. I believe she flashed to a different timeline, then came back and realized that it worked. Or at least she thinks it did based on the alternate reality she saw before she came back (consciously) to Sawyers arms.

[chester]

I think what she said before dying is relevant. I believe she flashed to a different timeline, then came back and realized that it worked. Or at least she thinks it did based on the alternate reality she saw before she came back (consciously) to Sawyers arms.

I agree, I think she should have had an experience much like Desmond did when he turned the failsafe.

[Dzbabykel]

I think what she said before dying is relevant. I believe she flashed to a different timeline, then came back and realized that it worked. Or at least she thinks it did based on the alternate reality she saw before she came back (consciously) to Sawyers arms.

It was just like with Charlotte (sorry if I keep repeating myself :p) but Charlotte says right before her death something about her mom not allowed her to have chocolate before dinner, which is the same thing she said as a child to Dan right before he told her to never come back to the island. My PERSONAL opinion is that Juliet's mind flashed to the alternate timeline of her being off the island (just as the others are on the plane) and at some point she meets up with Sawyer and (upon just meeting him) asks him to get coffee and going Dutch. I think the line she says is very significant and also proves that somehow it did "work" like she claims. Maybe Sawyer and Juliet are meant to be together after all. We'll see :p

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

The only thing I kept thinking was that maybe the scenes of the successful flight 815 is actually the final outcome of the show that we are getting chunks of now. Like maybe it wasn't the bomb going off that directly lead up to that but other events that we will see in the final season.

I tend to agree with this. I think they want us to believe that 815 landing in LA was a result of the bomb going off, but I don't think that adds up because if it does, we seem to be dealing with one of two ugly possibilities:

(1) TCC - one of the two timelines we are watching is completely irrelevant because one of them is or will be over-written by the other one. If the plane lands in LA, then who is on the island in 2007 doing battle with smokie? Did Jacob die? If nobody crash lands on the island, then how does anybody go back to 1977 to detonate the hydrogen bomb? I suppose even more of the timeline could become irrelevant as it could have detonated back in the 50's. I can see some other event occurring that causes this to happen (i.e. the balance of the island gets resolved some other way), but I don't think that the bomb would be the cause of this because it would leave the rest of the story line somewhat meaningless.

(2) multiple universes - If there are 2, then surely there can be more. I just think this gets a little messy. I think this could be done in another series, but I'm not buying that they're going to introduce the concept in Season 6 of LOST. As I think Chester posted above, ANY time a decision is made another universe is spawned off based on possibilities.

[natego]

Agreed!!!!!

[chester]

Sure. But there were a ton of people working down there... it looked more like, well, a construction zone.

What we saw last night was the post-fail safe Swan.
Not a post-incident Swan. (I should've been more careful how I word that.)

No jeeps, no crane, no drill, etc...

I'm actually not even sure if I'm disagreeing with you. :o

Right. I think they made 'the incident' a failsafe event. Jeeps, drills etc, would have been imploded with the rest of it. Or were used elseware after the changed incident.

[JfromtheD]

I'm not certain the bomb went off.

But I'm with you on the 'implosion' thing.

[chester]

I'm not certain the bomb went off.

But I'm with you on the 'implosion' thing.

Juliette seemed pretty sure that the bomb went off, I guess she sensed the light just after that final hit with the rock. So perhaps it was just coincidental that the magnetic effect from breaching the pocket finally reached some critical point where everthing just gets imploded in an instant, and which causes, right at that instant, the losties to be flashed forward in time. Or, perhaps it was the interaction between the energy from the pocket breach and the energy from the nuclear reaction that caused the flash and the implosion.

[Lostfan1]

I don't think it would have killed anyone. Well, not directly. Juliette died from it, but not from an actual explosion. My assumption is that detonating the bomb caused an event much like when Desmond turned the failsafe key (I'm guessing detonating the bomb is exactly what Desmond did himself when he did so), where there was just a loud noise (which would account for the hearing difficulties the losties experienced) and a purple sky. And an imploding Swan station.

Disappointed not to see Juliette naked.

I agree. I think the bomb just imploded the station; not blew up the island
But the station was still built and the plane still crashed
...When Desmond imploded the hatch he was sent into a different timeline where he could choose to go to the island or not.
When Juliet hit the bomb she and the losties were sent to "present" or 2010

The "alternate universe" i believe is actually a flash forward... Because a different event taking place in present 2010 will cause the island to sink and the plane land safley

Don't hold me to it though....i can't predict LOST anymore :(

[boutte]

Ok i didn't read much (any) of this thread before post this.........

The begining of last nights show is the end of the show. The Island underwater, Jack and Des etc on the plane, Kates escape (and eventual hook up with Sawyer) are what's going to happen when the events on the island play themselves out.

Juliet became unstuck in time just like Des when he turned the key. When Sawyer crawled into the hole and spoke with Juliet she said something totally out of context, similar to Charlotte's "I'm not allowed to have chocolate before dinner." She somehow knows that detonating the bomb worked, or will work, once the events that were set on motion by the detonation play out.

Now I'll go back and read the thread.

[rachelskid]

this scene came to my mind last night. this is a short version, i will try to find a better version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxCvPIimXbc

[Dzbabykel]

Ok i didn't read much (any) of this thread before post this.........

The begining of last nights show is the end of the show. The Island underwater, Jack and Des etc on the plane, Kates escape (and eventual hook up with Sawyer) are what's going to happen when the events on the island play themselves out.

Juliet became unstuck in time just like Des when he turned the key. When Sawyer crawled into the hole and spoke with Juliet she said something totally out of context, similar to Charlotte's "I'm not allowed to have chocolate before dinner." She somehow knows that detonating the bomb worked, or will work, once the events that were set on motion by the detonation play out.

Now I'll go back and read the thread.

Yay that's what I said too!! Glad you think the same :D

[chester]

this scene came to my mind last night. this is a short version, i will try to find a better version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxCvPIimXbc

Why did this scene in particular come to your mind last night? Is it because Sawyer's in it, and it's strange because he has a shirt on?

[rachelskid]

Why did this scene in particular come to your mind last night? Is it because Sawyer's in it, and it's strange because he has a shirt on?

that WAS unnerving. and scary. more scary then smokey's look when he said he wanted to go home. shudder

no, it seems prophetic and not just a dream. jack could be going back to australia to get coffin, sawyer and kate are bound to end up together, it feels like the new timeline we are seeing now. it FEELS the same...to me.

[JfromtheD]

this scene came to my mind last night. this is a short version, i will try to find a better version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxCvPIimXbc

I've been all over that scene, lately!

I thought for sure, that Desmond would be a pilot in the premier!!!
I even came up with reasons why he would be single, and chasing women.:D

[chester]

that WAS unnerving. and scary. more scary then smokey's look when he said he wanted to go home. shudder

no, it seems prophetic and not just a dream. jack could be going back to australia to get coffin, sawyer and kate are bound to end up together, it feels like the new timeline we are seeing now. it FEELS the same...to me.

Maybe the dream is like predicting consequences of making particular changes to the past, and how that would effect certain people?

[rachelskid]

I've been all over that scene, lately!

I thought for sure, that Desmond would be a pilot in the premier!!!
I even came up with reasons why he would be single, and chasing women.:D

i can't find a clip of the entire thing.
there are lots of reasons he would be single, this is highly indicated by his appearance on 815.
and, if he never left the queens army, maybe he trained to be a pilot. if you have the link to the full scene, will you post, please?

[rachelskid]

Maybe the dream is like predicting consequences of making particular changes to the past, and how that would effect certain people?

perhaps. but, does that not sound like a Christmas carol? :eek:

[boutte]

I've been all over that scene, lately!

I thought for sure, that Desmond would be a pilot in the premier!!!
I even came up with reasons why he would be single, and chasing women.:D

Where did this scene come from?

Are we posting spoilers in the open forum or did i miss this somehow?

[evilcow]

Boutte, that was my theory too!

[rachelskid]

Where did scene come from?

Are we posting spoilers in the open forum or did i miss this somehow?

further instructions, way back in season 3

seeee! you thought it was a spoiler. ha! same feel same tone

[boutte]

further instructions, way back in season 3

seeee! you thought it was a spoiler. ha! same feel same tone

What the hell?? I'll have to go look at that. I don't remember it all.

[boutte]

Yay that's what I said too!! Glad you think the same :D

Boutte, that was my theory too!

Great minds..............

[chester]

perhaps. but, does that not sound like a Christmas carol? :eek:

I s'pose it does a bit. But maybe they could use a more pseudo-science approach and make it like Locke is scanning the probabiliy wave funtion, or something. With some help from 'the island'..

[chester]

What the hell?? I'll have to go look at that. I don't remember it all.

Ahhh, memory. It's not all that it's cracked up to be.....;):D

[lkeegan]

Well, for one, Desmond was on the plane. Depending on whether the bomb actually killed anyone, Charles, Eloise, Penny, etc. would be gone.

Hurley doesn't have bad luck because the numbers aren't cursed...but then they would not have been broadcast, so he wouldn't know about them...perhaps he just thought them up in his head a got lucky...

Shannon apparently decided to stay in Australia. But I think this is only because Magie Grace won't return.

Why do we see Desmond on this flight, we know he was on the island causing the crash of 815. Are we to beleive that due to the path they have taken a new ending to our lost drama is too unfold in one theory, and in the other lies the tue one.

[ck1]

my guess would be that juliet saying' it worked' has a double meaning.

say she was flashing through time like charlotte was when she said something about getting coffee and going dutch,maybe she was somewhere else and was saying those things to somebody else off island,meaning that she knew she was off island plus where she was she may have had no recollection of sawyer just like charlotte all of a sudden couldnt remember her mothers maiden name.

so 'it worked' as in the plan worked and we get off the island
and 'it worked' we never met.

sorry if this makes no sense but it did in my head lol

[chester]

my guess would be that juliet saying' it worked' has a double meaning.

say she was flashing through time like charlotte was when she said some about getting coffee and going dutch,maybe she was somewhere else and was saying those things to somebody else off island,meaning that she knew she was off island plus where she was she may have no recollection of sawyer just like charlotte all of a sudden couldnt remember her mothers maiden name.

so 'it worked' as in the plan worked and we get off the island
and 'it worked' we never met.

sorry if this makes no sense but it did in my head lol

Yes, I think that that's what Juliette was trying to tell him. The plan worked. Sawyer was trying to tell her it didn't, she was trying to let him know it did. Because, she just consciously time-travelled and things were different. She was with someone else, and/or she hadn't come to the island. Before being consciously zapped back to the same time as the rest of the losties again, something like what happened when Desmond turned the failsafe.

[rachelskid]

Yes, I think that that's what Juliette was trying to tell him. The plan worked. Sawyer was trying to tell her it didn't, she was trying to let him know it did. Because, she just consciously time-travelled and things were different. She was with someone else.

time traveled to where?

[boutte]

Ahhh, memory. It's not all that it's cracked up to be.....;):D

What's this about memory?

Is this a spoiler?

[chester]

time traveled to where?

Hmmm, maybe around three year later than where Desmond consciously travelled to when he turned the failsafe, idk, just to some point where she would be aware of a difference in her 'life' that she could attribute to changing the incident 'back' in 77.

[rachelskid]

Hmmm, maybe around three year later than where Desmond consciously travelled to when he turned the failsafe, idk, just to some point where she would be aware of a difference in her 'life' that she could attribute to changing the incident 'back' in 77.

so complex.

[chester]

Why do we see Desmond on this flight, we know he was on the island causing the crash of 815. Are we to beleive that due to the path they have taken a new ending to our lost drama is too unfold in one theory, and in the other lies the tue one.

Why he was on the plane could be explained by thinking that their universe is updateable. Juliette detonating the bomb to change the incident on the island back in the 70's, would presumably have a run-on effect to the events that happen off island too. Which, seems to have changed things so that Desmond no longer goes on a round the world yacht race, but instead had other business in Australia that he was returning via plane to the US from.

The same could also be applied to the other differences that were noticed. Not just in the S6 premiere, but also throughout the whole series.

That is, maybe other changes have been happening the whole time. And continue to. Maybe Desmond suddenly not being there, was the result of another change in the past happening. Jack just now has an ability to remember previous realities perhaps...

[USKIWI]

The only thing I kept thinking was that maybe the scenes of the successful flight 815 is actually the final outcome of the show that we are getting chunks of now. Like maybe it wasn't the bomb going off that directly lead up to that but other events that we will see in the final season.

Thats what i keep thinking, kinda like the end of season four, when you finally realize that they were flashing forward, and not back. Im thinking there has to be more time travel included, and if thats the case, everyone on the island will end up dying, and the final scene will loop back to Jack in the plane.

[JfromtheD]

What the hell?? I'll have to go look at that. I don't remember it all.

It was Locke's dream when he was in the sweat lodge...

[chester]

But how? It appears Dan's plan was successful, they no longer crash on the island. But they still continue on the island, after being flashed back to the same time as the rest of the Ajira passengers. So if it worked, then why was the Swan hatch still built and still imploded?

Also, if it worked, how do the losties end up back in time again to make it so the plane doesn't crash?

I've been posting the possible answer for this elseware, but thought I'd add it here.

In this updateable universe, that I think might be LOST, there is no need for the losties of the '04 flight that lands at LAX to go back in time and make it so the plane doesn't crash, because their now duplicates, who have now flashed forward in time to '07, have already done it.

So we might not be seeing two timelines right now, but just one, at two diffferent times. And this timeline is an alternate timeline to the 'one' we've been watching for most of the series, before they changed 'the incident'.

[Greg Dharma]

So we might not be seeing two timelines right now, but just one, at two diffferent times. And this timeline is an alternate timeline to the 'one' we've been watching for most of the series, before they changed 'the incident'.

bingo.

the problem, however, is that the 'end' timeline is three years EARLIER than the 2007 timeline. that's the paradox. so the 2007 timeline is going to cancel out at some point and the alt-timelien will become the 'true' timeline.

the key to this season is start at the end and work your way backwards. it's the only logical thing which makes sense. otherwise you'll drive yourself crazy with speculation.

i'm pretty sure that juliet is in 2004, not 2007.

and i also predict we'll see juliet again.

[JohnQ]

"It only ends once..." Jacob knows the outcome to everyone's stories. He is more powerful than any character, even Smokie/MiB/Flocke...This is why MiB wants so badly to kill Jacob, because both know that Jacob has more power. These multiple worlds/timelines are just another piece in Jacob's massive puzzle. And the Losties keep f'ing things up by shooting each other and killing each other. If the altOceanic world continues, we will see more conflict arise. We can't assume the Losties are all that happy simply because they did not crash on the island.

[islander]

Also, if it worked, how do the losties end up back in time again to make it so the plane doesn't crash?

I've been posting the possible answer for this elseware, but thought I'd add it here.

In this updateable universe, that I think might be LOST, there is no need for the losties of the '04 flight that lands at LAX to go back in time and make it so the plane doesn't crash, because their now duplicates, who have now flashed forward in time to '07, have already done it.

So we might not be seeing two timelines right now, but just one, at two diffferent times. And this timeline is an alternate timeline to the 'one' we've been watching for most of the series, before they changed 'the incident'.

OK - but what do we do with the 2007 timeline? One of the two timelines can't be sustainable. Is Jacob trying to change the 2007 timeline somehow and MIB is trying to preserve it? I can't image any way that the 2004 Losties can impact the island since TPTB showed us the island is now submerged.

[chester]

OK - but what do we do with the 2007 timeline? One of the two timelines can't be sustainable. Is Jacob trying to change the 2007 timeline somehow and MIB is trying to preserve it? I can't image any way that the 2004 Losties can impact the island since TPTB showed us the island is now submerged.

Perhaps there aren't two timelines at the moment, but just one. Shown at two different time periods, and showing the events that surround the lives of the now two different versions of the losties. Some stuff happens between '04, when we see the island under water, and '07 when it's not.

I think this one new timeline might be the result of 'changing the past'. And perhaps Jacob's plan within this timeline is to have the losties do something else that will change things again in a way more suitable to Jacobs goals. Whatever they are.

[islander]

Perhaps there aren't two timelines at the moment, but just one. Shown at two different time periods, and showing the events that surround the lives of the now two different versions of the losties. Some stuff happens between '04, when we see the island under water, and '07 when it's not.

I think this one new timeline might be the result of 'changing the past'. And perhaps Jacob's plan within this timeline is to have the losties do something else that will change things again in a way more suitable to Jacobs goals. Whatever they are.

I was afraid to put this out there, but suppose as you say there is only one timeline and the new 2004 timeline is "playing over" the old one?

So 815 lands (much to the dismay of the WHHers :cool:) and TPTB get to show us how the Losties' lives would have been as compared to the epic struggle continuing on the island.

[krakup]

I was afraid to put this out there, but suppose as you say there is only one timeline and the new 2004 timeline is "playing over" the old one?

So 815 lands (much to the dismay of the WHHers :cool:) and TPTB get to show us how the Losties' lives would have been as compared to the epic struggle continuing on the island.

that would be cool but i wouldn't be surprised if they all somehow end up back on the island. say on the ajira flight

[chester]

Yeah, if the case, I think course correction might take place, and the losties will still end up on the island somehow. And will perhaps even meet their duplicates there...

[rachelskid]

I was afraid to put this out there, but suppose as you say there is only one timeline and the new 2004 timeline is "playing over" the old one?

So 815 lands (much to the dismay of the WHHers :cool:) and TPTB get to show us how the Losties' lives would have been as compared to the epic struggle continuing on the island.

you are soooo jumping ahead of yourself with the WHH debate. what we see now is partially done in an effort NOT to resolve the debate. this will continue, either forever, or at least until the very end.

again, you do not know that this is flight 815. do you? and you do not know that it is 2004 either. i am not necessarily behind the theory that this is the future, but am simply pointing out all that we do not know and thus the jumping to conclusions that is going on.

[chester]

Thinking that maybe the Boone/Locke convo on the plane about a water ditching, might be a foreshadowing of how 'course correction' gets the losties back to the island. And then someone dives down and spins a wheel, pushes a button, turns a key, enters a code, sings a song, plays a piano, stands on their head or something, and *bloop* the island's back above see level again.

[Entervoice]

I think it's pretty simple, really...

......._____(the bomb works)___2004-the island is submerged, they land in LA X
1977
......._____(the bomb doesn't work)___2007-nothing changes, they end up at the destroyed Swan station

Pretty much, it's a split timeline. Somehow, though, the two are connected, what with the deja vu Jack seems to have and Juliet saying "It worked".

I would seem though that they were always in 1977 though, as proven by the photo in the barracks as well as Richard remembering them.

Richard said to Sun, that he watched them all die???????????

[islander]

you are soooo jumping ahead of yourself with the WHH debate. what we see now is partially done in an effort NOT to resolve the debate. this will continue, either forever, or at least until the very end.

again, you do not know that this is flight 815. do you? and you do not know that it is 2004 either. i am not necessarily behind the theory that this is the future, but am simply pointing out all that we do not know and thus the jumping to conclusions that is going on.

I'm not 100% sure, but I'm pretty close. For WHH to hold, the new Oceanic flight cannot occur after 9/22/2004 since the Losties are clearly strangers on the new flight and they obviously become aquaintances shortly after the original 815 crashes. For them to be strangers on the new Oceanic flight if that flight occurred on or after 9/22/2004 means "EC" (Everything Changed).

Whether we are seeing two timelines or a retracing of the original timeline is debatable, but how is either compatable with WHH?

[Gettingafixonlost]

I'm not 100% sure, but I'm pretty close. For WHH to hold, the new Oceanic flight cannot occur after 9/22/2004 since the Losties are clearly strangers on the new flight and they obviously become aquaintances shortly after the original 815 crashes. For them to be strangers on the new Oceanic flight if that flight occurred on or after 9/22/2004 means "EC" (Everything Changed).

Whether we are seeing two timelines or a retracing of the original timeline is debatable, but how is either compatable with WHH?

This is my take on the whole WHH TCC debate.....
WHH is always true on any given timeline/reality. TCC is the creation of an alternate timeline/reality and WHH holds true for that one as well.

[rachelskid]

I'm not 100% sure, but I'm pretty close. For WHH to hold, the new Oceanic flight cannot occur after 9/22/2004 since the Losties are clearly strangers on the new flight and they obviously become aquaintances shortly after the original 815 crashes. For them to be strangers on the new Oceanic flight if that flight occurred on or after 9/22/2004 means "EC" (Everything Changed).

Whether we are seeing two timelines or a retracing of the original timeline is debatable, but how is either compatable with WHH?

wha?? seriously? so far the original timeline is intact and strongly indicative of WHH. and the new timeline is indicative of TCC by virtue of its creation. but each seems entirely self contained in its own WHH place. don't you see how much tptb have no desire (perhaps even intention) to resolve this?

i think the solution is probably more philosophical then scientific. can you fight destiny? i think the answer will be YOU make your own damn destiny, so if you want to fight your self, go ahead, but its a losing battle.

reminds me of lyrics for "falling slowly"

I don't know you
But I want you
All the more for that
Words fall through me
And always fool me
And I can't react
And games that never amount
To more than they're meant
Will play themselves out

Take this sinking boat and point it home
We've still got time
Raise your hopeful voice you have a choice
You'll make it now

Falling slowly, eyes that know me
And I can't go back
Moods that take me and erase me
And I'm painted black
You have suffered enough
And warred with yourself
It's time that you won

Take this sinking boat and point it home
We've still got time
Raise your hopeful voice you had a choice
You've made it now
Falling slowly sing your melody
I'll sing along

[chester]

Just brought this over from a different thread we were judged to have hijacked....

..anyway. there are plenty of clues in Lost that WHH and course correction go together and are a real possibility as a premise for last years time travel, and this years consequences. But, there are also plenty of evidence that TCC or multiverse is the other possibility.

So for those WHHers who believe that WHH goes hand in hand with 'course correction', what is so special about Desmond? It seems Eloise tells him that any changes he might try to make, while being in the past with knowledge of his now future, will be 'corrected'. Isn't this WHH?

So how is Desmond exempt from WHH? Is Eloise lying, does course correction not apply to whatever changes Desmond chooses to make?

[rachelskid]

Just brought this over from a different thread we were judged to have hijacked....



So for those WHHers who believe that WHH goes hand in hand with 'course correction', what is so special about Desmond? It seems Eloise tells him that any changes he might try to make, while being in the past with knowledge of his now future, will be 'corrected'. Isn't this WHH?

So how is Desmond exempt from WHH? Is Eloise lying, does course correction not apply to whatever changes Desmond chooses to make?

maybe it has nothing to do with being exempt from WHH or CC but the ability to communicate about the situation or through time periods. maybe its his consciousness travel abilities. or maybe ots that he knows about cc. or maybe, like you said, it doesn't apply to him...we do not yet know. although, we have seen him prone to CC with the charlie situation. i think its just a matter of this, for now: "well how come desmond__?", "because the rules do not apply to desmond."

[chester]

What rules? :p:D

[rachelskid]

What rules? :p:D

any and all rules that may or may not come up. the same rules that jacob/mib talk about? or ben and widmore? we do not know what they are. physics?

actually i think its the consciousness travel. physical time travel makes you sick and no constant can save you. but, it seems Desmond has successfully consciousness traveled and so he has an ability to exchange information with either another time period or another reality.

anyway, tptb said- as you know- desmond is the embodiment of island magic. who the hell knows....

[rachelskid]

What rules? :p:D

btw- this guy at this blog has an interesting perspective, akin to yours and not WHH at all on des and the story. i do not mean interesting as in new, but more like cohesively put together. http://www.hobotrashcan.com/features/down-the-hatch/

[jlazarus]

But how? It appears Dan's plan was successful, they no longer crash on the island. But they still continue on the island, after being flashed back to the same time as the rest of the Ajira passengers. So if it worked, then why was the Swan hatch still built and still imploded?

I don't think they did build the Swan hatch, I think that what they woke up to was the however old remains of the nearly-finished hatch after Juliette exploding the bomb, caused a (or brought forward the) failsafe key turning event. With a similar result.

So now when 815 flies over the island, which for some reason in '04 is then underwater, there's no Swan button not being pushed to cause the plane to crash. So they land in LA.

'Meanwhile', their former future selves who were living back in the 70's before they changed them, have been zapped back to whatever time-period the rest of the Ajira passengers are in, which we assume is '07. And I presume is the same changed reality that saw flight 815 land in LA.

I think the reality would have changed as soon as they blooped back in time off the crash-landing Ajira flight - they blooped out of existence back to the past, and following the bloop, the reality was then updated. Which they later got blooped back to once they imploded the nearly-built Swan.

I think. I don't know, it's very confusing. :confused:
I know you posted this last week, and I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I absolutely thought the same thing: that the Sawyer/Kate/Jack "woke up" to the remains of the nearly finished hatch...but then there was that danged bicycle.....

[chester]

Yeah, if they were nearly finished, as in the Swan station is below the ground of the construction site (apart from the hatch door), then I would expect all the bits that are to go inside the station to also already be inside. Like the bicycle, washing machine etc.

Also, there is a rumour that the exercise bike was seen in the jungle, post-failsafe. So why would it now be in the implosion debris, if everything is the same?