something is wrong

[Captain67]

something is wrong, Ben was healed in the pool "we assume" He sould have been like; loyal for life. He should have been in the lo0pe. If Not, then It all falls on Richard, which always seem to be in the wrong place at the wrong time to do nothing. He ask's more questions than he answers..richard does.

Somthing bad wrong with ben.... if flocke can put on a long "Con" so can Ben or anyone esle for that matter.. Flocke didnt recognise the foot as Jacob's pad/home and didnt know about the smokie/Alex orders...

And Hear me now and Believe me later, but remember in the future.. A salesman knows when he being sold. and a Conman knows a Con!!!!! and ben should have know way better.. JMO


Where is Home? Smokies Home? Flocke said he wanted to go home. Seems to be a recurring theme... Wanting to go home. It seems to come with great purpose and determination which seems to be a matter of life and death.


Richard should have been 10 steps ahead- he shouldnt have opened the door at the foot, for flocke. I would have pointed to it and said " Have at it bud "
" Good Luck with ThAt" ... Waves.... =-)
Jacob was clearly waiting... 0o00o humm

He should have at best showed him the foot and let him have at it

and then procced to the temple and all them folks should have left.. there was dayligh/morning whent hey they got there... and it got dark, then it was light again.. 2 days? Naw.. Someone is running a gambit.. I think jacob made him pull his queen out too early..

[BucFanLostinNC]

Well one thing that stands out about Ben was in the last episode when Illana and Bram are asking who is in charge. And as Richard is cut off and they turn to look at Ben who is jumping from the foot.

I think Richard would have said Ben if ben had not have shown up. But the fact that the attention was drawn to Ben it was a teaser that he indeed is the leader.

[Jelena]

As always, Captain, you summarize the points that clearly state this show is not about black and white, even though they did claim so time and time again. From my perspective, Lost is about that exciting, unnerving gray area - which is why it's such a good show.

[Captain67]

When Richard, was questioning flocke about how he was alive?

Now think a minute... If you wanted to know the answer to a question, do you answer the question for yourself?

Richard either clearly Baited him into the answer of Jacob. By saying He was the was he was because of Jacob.
If your protecting Jacob "Richard" you need to be more like you was towards Ben, as Ben was asking Richard to go see flocke.

Grown Men don't let misdirection of answering a question with a QUESTION.. just slide by with out a red flag going off in your subconscious. Either richard was dumb, or baiting him. " Kinda like asking a question you already know the answer too, just to play dumb yourself.. in attemp to mislead the one that thinks it is his CON.. when he is being Con'd Instead..


then to except that its ok to take flocke to see Jacob base on flocke wanting to say " Thank You" Flocke wanting to shake his hand... .. naaa, I don't think so..

Richard was doing just like Ben said, flocke was marched right up there... maybe they were selling a Con.

[Captain67]

Flocke also announced to the world that his attentions were to kill Jacob when the was smarting off to ben about him killing Jacob...

Man and no one over herd that?!

umm, i think i would be whispering to richard about this idea.. Ben- the one Healed by richard and in the temple, Ben- I would have mentioned this to Richard... Ben the Leader.. Ben the one that got Widmore bannished?


Alex wasnt not his daughter! why is he so indebted to flocke.

Ben mumbled, when Alex died.. "he" changed the rules" Who is HE? this only precludes that Ben already knew the outcome, but it was differnt this time.

Ben should have know this .. when Ben played Dumb and asked, why him, when the were makeing there way to the foot. flocke tells him becuase he let his daughter die.. " REd Flag "

[rekhyt]

Alex wasnt not his daughter! why is he so indebted to flocke.



but he raised her. adopted children can be loved too, you know....

[Captain67]

well, richard and Jacob saved his life.. hurmm.. where would my loyalites lie.. some kid i kid naped, maybe because Jacob told me to - to begin with.

[Captain67]

I think, Ben is sand bagging, I think he knows more than he letting on. way more.

[Panda]

Man and no one over herd that?!

umm, i think i would be whispering to richard about this idea.. Ben- the one Healed by richard and in the temple, Ben- I would have mentioned this to Richard... Ben the Leader.. Ben the one that got Widmore bannished?


Alex wasnt not his daughter! why is he so indebted to flocke.


Well it are good questions.
If Ben is supposed the show the characteristics of a psychopathic leader...well than yes his so called regrets for Alex getting killed could have been fake, and he could have been playing the game to give MIB the impression that he is on his way. At least MIB believes now that Ben will be Loyal to him to spare his life...
But is Ben a character that ever showed loyalty to anyone except to himself?
Letting your daughter die if you love your daughter...where is the loyalty of a parent towards a child?
Did he always obey Jacob? Or so called orders of Jacob? No he kept Alex alive and her mother as well...where he was asked to kill them both.
So it seems that he does what he does without any loyalty towards anyone...

Or I must have missed something.

[jlazarus]

First, great points...I wondered something similar right after the show and posted here...at the time, I wondered if Ben was conning Flocke, by BEING JACOB....i.e., Ben was taken to that temple...could he have died and could Jacob have been projecting himself as Ben all along? Could the "Jacob" in the Temple have been an imposter?

After thinking about it though, it seems to complicated things too much, and I think the average viewer needs something a bit simpler...but still, very intriguing...

On another note:


Ben mumbled, when Alex died.. "he" changed the rules" Who is HE? this only precludes that Ben already knew the outcome, but it was differnt this time.



Ben specifically accused Charles of "changing the rules" when he visited him off island....."The Shape of Things to Come"

BEN: Wake up, Charles.

WIDMORE: I wondered when you were gonna show up. I see you've been getting more sun.

BEN: Iraq is lovely this time of year. (pause) When did you start sleeping with a bottle of scotch by the bed?

WIDMORE: When the nightmares started. (pause) Have you come here to kill me, Benjamin?

BEN: We both know I can't do that.

WIDMORE: Then why are you here?

BEN: I'm here, Charles, because you murdered my daughter.

WIDMORE: Don't stand there, looking at me with those horrible eyes of yours and lay the blame for the death of that poor girl on me, when we both know very well I didn't murder her at all, Benjamin. You did.

BEN: No, that's not true.

WIDMORE. Yes, Benjamin, it is. You creep into my bedroom in the dead of night--like a rat--and have the audacity to pretend that you're the victim? (pause) I know who you are, boy. What you are. I know that everything you have you took from me. So... Once again I ask you: Why are you here?

BEN: I'm here, Charles, to tell you that I'm going to kill your daughter. Penelope, is it? And once she's gone... once she's dead... then you'll understand how I feel. And you'll wish you hadn't changed the rules.

WIDMORE: You'll never find her. (pause) That island's mine, Benjamin. It always was. It will be again.

BEN: But you'll never find it.

WIDMORE: Then I suppose the hunt is on for both of us.

BEN : I suppose it is. Sleep tight, Charles.

What I want to know is WHY CAN'T BEN KILL CHARLES???!
(and, did/does he need a loophole to do it?)

[Junglist]

Well one thing that stands out about Ben was in the last episode when Illana and Bram are asking who is in charge. And as Richard is cut off and they turn to look at Ben who is jumping from the foot.

I think Richard would have said Ben if ben had not have shown up. But the fact that the attention was drawn to Ben it was a teaser that he indeed is the leader.

THIS. well done buc.

[rekhyt]

What I want to know is WHY CAN'T BEN KILL CHARLES???!
(and, did/does he need a loophole to do it?)

...and if he needs a loophole...is it already set up? ;)

[Captain67]

First, great points...I wondered something similar right after the show and posted here...at the time, I wondered if Ben was conning Flocke, by BEING JACOB....i.e., Ben was taken to that temple...could he have died and could Jacob have been projecting himself as Ben all along? Could the "Jacob" in the Temple have been an imposter?

After thinking about it though, it seems to complicated things too much, and I think the average viewer needs something a bit simpler...but still, very intriguing...

On another note:




Ben specifically accused Charles of "changing the rules" when he visited him off island....."The Shape of Things to Come"



What I want to know is WHY CAN'T BEN KILL CHARLES???!
(and, did/does he need a loophole to do it?)

Ahh Good Point, I remember that scene.
Then- still weather he was speaking about Jacob or widmore, he still was betting on a different outcome.
Still Yet, That does seem to pin him to some deep emotions and feelings of loss.. to warrant revenge.

Ok still something missing here.. Ethan and Ben were sent to kill Alex and they didn't. Ethan was all to willing but Ben took over and took her as his own. At every turn she betrayed him. This smells alot like Charlies's situation. Destin to die. Alex was born on the Island, Father unknown.
Alex... LA X ......humm just thinking out loud..
Clair's baby - Borne on the Island..But it is off Island and was told not to bring the baby to the Island. ( Loop Hole)
How about Sun's baby..Borne off Island but conceived on the Island... hurmm
I wonder if she ever get Prego now??

Wow this get confusing, I need a couple chalk boards...

[lilsev42]

I'm with you guys about Ben layin in the grass like a snake,letting it all play out.He knew the name of Jack's dad (when he heard his name his eyes got so big)just like he knew Eloise and acted like he didn't.The temple did have something to do with hiom even being her,so I like the thoery of Jacob being a part of him.Since,they did'nt show us the scene of Richard and lil Ben in the temple as a kid.(I'm betting we see it later this season)Ben is conning the mib (jacob just playing games with his old friend),while MIB thinks he found his loophole and his guard is down and ready to rage war on the temple-he will be blindsided by the losties and Ben.It can only end once,anything before that is just progress.That's a bopld statement.Sounds like they have done this before and have been waiting to do-it again for a long time.

[werlost]

Well, I always wondered: If Richard knew that Jacob lived in the foot statue then why didnt he say anything when Ben and/or Locke would go tromping off to the cabin to see Jacob?

[jlazarus]

What's "wrong" with Ben is one of the biggest things bugging me right now! His story is full of so many holes! Let me know when you figure it out :)

[MonicaLynn60]

I agree...something is wrong. But Remember; When Richard took Little Ben from Sawyer and Kate and told them that he COULD heal Ben, but that Ben would not remember it- but he would never be the same (yada, yada)

Maybe BEN doesn't KNOW that The Temple saved his life? Maybe he just thinks Juliet or another Doctor did? We never see the outcome from that. Just Ben getting older and older.

But I agree that Ben seems VERY out of his element of control here. Whether that is on purpose, or just a fact......I don't know.

[seeknay2012]

TRY THIS ON FOR SIZE:

Jacob and "Smokey" (MIB) are GODS from ancient times......Humans actually built the temples on the Island to worship THEM. They have been at eachother's throats for a LONG time, trying to out duel eachother in a GOOD vs BAD power struggle. (Richard is also a God left behind only to observe.)

WOW !!!! I can't believe how close you guys are to exactly what I have been thinking all along. For clearity I think you must do a Google search on the story of "Enlil and Enki". These were the offspring of A God known as Anu. Guess what???? They originated from another planet known to the Sumerians as Nibiru. They were both left here on Earth until the planets return which is every 3,600 years. Jacob (Enlil) tells Smokie (Enki): "They are coming". BINGO !!!!! I am serious about this. Please read the account....Google Search "NIBIRU". Please post your thought after you check it out. I believe the writers are taking a WHOLE lot from this story that has been recorded by the Sumerians on tablets that were recently found and translated.

[jlazarus]

TRY THIS ON FOR SIZE:

Jacob and "Smokey" (MIB) are GODS from ancient times......Humans actually built the temples on the Island to worship THEM. They have been at eachother's throats for a LONG time, trying to out duel eachother in a GOOD vs BAD power struggle. (Richard is also a God left behind only to observe.)

WOW !!!! I can't believe how close you guys are to exactly what I have been thinking all along. For clearity I think you must do a Google search on the story of "Enlil and Enki". These were the offspring of A God known as Anu. Guess what???? They originated from another planet known to the Sumerians as Nibiru. They were both left here on Earth until the planets return which is every 3,600 years. Jacob (Enlil) tells Smokie (Enki): "They are coming". BINGO !!!!! I am serious about this. Please read the account....Google Search "NIBIRU". Please post your thought after you check it out. I believe the writers are taking a WHOLE lot from this story that has been recorded by the Sumerians on tablets that were recently found and translated.

I do believe we've been giving some very interesting Sumerian references. I started a thread on it last spring, and back then I did think we might be looking at Enlil and Enki. (http://lost.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8630 )
I believe there are some others on this forum that have thought the same thing (independently).

Personally, I just love reading/learning about Sumerian lore....absolutely fascinating!!!

Of course, this is Lost though, and TPTB have made TONS of references to other myths as well (and more so probably), so, I'm not putting a lot of stock in it at the moment......;-)

[myu]

JLazarus, I'm actually a little dumbfounded that your Sumeria discussion thread (http://lost.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8630) hasn't gotten more attention by now! Maybe because it's squirreled away in the "Season 5" sub section. In my mind, you've hit the nail on the head. We've already seen plenty of signs that there is a "composite" of ancient themes going on in LOST. Although we see rather straight forward Egyptian symbolism, there definitely looks to be Sumerian influence tied in as well.
"According to the Egyptians, Anubis had one son, then all-but-forgotten: They knew him as much-later with Horus, the two Watchers in the east... But the Sumerian record has Anu Anubis having two, first-sons, En-Ki and En-Lil, gods of the land and the air, both fathered by Anu Anubis. "

Up to this point, I don't think any TV series or movie has been able to tie together all faiths and mythologies together, showing a deeper connection beyond just "good and evil". LOST may be trying to do that. There is the struggle between chaos (evil) and order (good). There are 3 pillars, though. The other is neutrality... the "balance" of it all. Not letting good get too predominant such that creativity is stifled, but then not letting evil dominate such that chaos makes a mess of things. Who is really filling the roles of each pillar? Not entirely sure yet.

What indeed if the Sumerian legend is what is at work here. A slight variation on "Stargate", whereby we discover that the human seed was really extraterrestrial, and that all the while the Sumerian sentinels have been watching but influencing our development.

There are a number of people who've remarked that if it turns out that LOST's answer lies with aliens, they'll throw a fit. "Haven't we seen enough of that?" And yet, it's mostly with aliens being an external entity coming to Earth as complete outsiders. In this case, it would be our remote ancestors. Perhaps we're of the Annunaki, originating from Niburu (Sumerian legend). But we don't know this today... we've been distanced from this link, forgotten our heritage. And we certainly aren't in touch with our destiny. Maybe the people assembled together for Flight 815 are inadvertently descendants from particular bloodlines that entail the responsibility of assuming certain roles in the next stage of life. Whatever that is.

We have to step back and think of the names involved here, too. Someone has done a fabulous job of that, on the "Jacob's Cabin (http://www.endtimeprophecy.net/jacob/miscellaneous/SignificanceOfNames.html)" website.

Curious about "Jacob", who most everyone believes to be "good." As a result of Biblical Jacob's trickery of receiving the birthright ahead of his older brother Esau, Jacob is also commonly referred to as Jacob the Deceiver. Do we have a deceiver in our midst, masquerading as a "good guy"?

[jlazarus]

Thanks MYU - I am so pleased someone saw that thread and enjoyed it! I replied back to you on it in more detail :)

And yes, the biblical Jacob was indeed a trickster, a fact that I am SURE was not 'lost' on TPTB! Great Catch! :)