Was Penny Waiting?

[Rain13]

I noticed something interesting that I hadn't seen anybody else bring up, my apologies if it has already been mentioned. When Desmond finally calls Penny from the freighter, do we get any indication that she knows he was going to call at that particular time? She of course is delighted to hear from him and says "I've been looking for you for 3 years", but she doesn't say anything that indicates that she knows he was going to call on that particular day. Since Daniel doesn't "remember" meeting Desmond in 1996 but his journal entry confirms that he in fact did, why should we think that Penny would remember when Desmond visited her that night and told her he'd call on Christmas 2004? I think the fact that she doesn't say anything to specifically indicate that she was expecting him to call means that she wasn't. Any thoughts?

Also, I had posted this on another thread but I think it kind of ties into this as well. When Desmond's travelling back in time caused "Daniel of the past" to write that journal entry, the journal entry then became a reality in the present time. "Daniel of the present" sees it, which proves that Desmond's going back in time did in fact effect the present day. If this is the case, than why didn't Daniel have any memory of Desmond coming to him in the past? Did he just completely forget about the whole incident and then somehow never see that journal entry for the next 8 years? Or do physical changes in the past effect the future but not mental ones? This last question is particularly challenging for me because as a Psychology major I can tell you that the imprint of a memory in the brain is every bit as physical as the writing of a journal entry on paper. What explains this discrepancy?

Back in school I read a short story, I forget its name, that took place in the future. In the story people can take "time travel safaris" back to see the dinosaurs. They must be careful, however, not to step off of a special path and must not affect the environment in any way. One of the characters accidentally steps off of the path and sees a dead butterfly in his footprint in the mud. He thinks nothing of it, but when they return back to the future everyone is speaking a different language. This is a perfect example of how tricky this stuff gets: the fact that that single butterfly was killed at that moment changed the course of history so dramatically that human language developed differently. It may seem absurd, and it is just a story, but you have to realize how complex our world is and how every single thing that happens is dependent on the quadrillions of events that preceded it. Think about it, if you went back in time and changed one small, insignificant thing that you did, your entire life would be forever different. The fact that Desmond going back in time actually led to this journal entry being present in the future opens the door to this possibility and means that numerous other things could have been changed as well. The writers are going to have to address this situation if this is the case, and hearing the writer's specifically say they didn't want to get caught in a situation like this makes me question whether we're understanding this whole situation correctly. Perhaps the journal entry that Daniel found wasn't an indication that Desmond had found him in the past? Perhaps he just wrote it?

[jacksnurse]

i agree that im not sure if penny knows or is waiting ...i mean for gods sake...could she have let that phone ring any longer.....as for the rest....have to think on it for a few...lol

[skatertsol]

Ok...the journal entry...I think there was talk of "no paradoxes" in other threads, that the writers said that wouldn't happen, but the journal would mean it did....And I thought that, too, about Penny...But then I thought...She was soo mad when they talked that last time, and yeah it was odd, but people say odd things when they are breaking up, desperate things, maybe she was thinking he really was just tryin to get her number and she was tryin to get him out-I think she will remember later if she doesn't already, but is it possible she just forgot? I mean, it's not real life, but I'm sure I don't remember things said to me 8 years ago that at the time seemed like a big deal...ya know?

[jacksnurse]

maybe penny has traveled in time as well and she is having some memory loss like daniel...lol

[navyguy]

Ok. here is my understanding of it all because i thought about time travel alot. The past cannot ever be changed. This is going on the theory that events through time are already "pre-written". Im going to try to explain this barney style here.

Desmond's consciousness went into the past when they hit the electrical storm. He went back to bootcamp. They events that unfolded happened because of what happened in the future, yes BUT it wasn't a "change of events" . It was already written in time. Take for example the movie time line, this is the best way i can describe this. In the beginning of the movie they find a tomb that held a man from the 16th century and you find out at the end of the movie that very tomb belonged to one of the party that traveled back in time.

Desmond didn't "change the course of history" because of what happened, he merely played the part he was supposed to play

[jacksnurse]

navy....james is looking for you in his "bearing" thread.....trying to figure out the coordinates and all ....ur needed

[skatertsol]

Right, which is what I was saying about "no paradoxes"....But what about the note in Daniel's journal? how is that explained?

[InLikeFlynn]

I think Daniel didn't remember him at first because Desmond hadn't gone back yet. Then once he did the memories caught up.

[samanthaleonore]

Yeah, I was wondering why the future was exactly the same though Desmond had been trampling through time. I mean, according to the Butterfly Effect, changing the past even in the slightest should have major effects on the present/future. Someone mentioned the Vonnegut reference to Slaughterhouse Five in another post. Vonnegut had another book, it was called Timequake or something. It was a similar idea, the people were reliving a portion of their lives, but they couldn't change anything in the past; they continued to "live on autopilot." It's interesting that Desmond's/Daniel's actions in 1996 (the second time around) didn't seem to change the present in the least.

[justjoe]

Penny was waiting for the phone call. Desmond said "you believed me" and she said yes.

[Rain13]

Yeah that's what I'm trying to get at Samantha, if Desmond's actions in the past have effected the future, which they indeed have if we are to believe that Daniel's journal entry is real, than A. why does Daniel have no memory of having met Desmond and B. why did Desmond still end up on the island? Either the writers have taken the position that actions committed in the past during time travel will NOT affect the future and that these are unlinked realities in time (which would mean that Daniel's journal isn't as we think it is), or they're just picking and choosing what sticks and what doesn't, which I find unlikely.

Also, there's no way Daniel and Penny are simply forgetting that Desmond came to them. Daniel is a physicist, and he would definately remember the day he was visited by a man from the future who gave him the secrets to time travel lol. Penny has devoted the last 3 years of her life trying to find Desmond, and if she's that obsessed with him she wouldn't have forgotten the details of the last time she saw him, especially since he was acting so bizarre.

This is my theory: Desmond is not truly time travelling, but only experiencing hallucinations that return him to the past and allow him to interact with it. This would explain why he is able to go back in time and manipulate his reality and get answers to bring back to the future (Penny's phone number), and also would explain why Penny and Daniel don't remember being visited by him. Also, when Daniel is explaining to Jack why Sayid and Desmond had been gone so long on the helicopter, he didn't say that there's a time rift. He said that "it only seems to you like it's taking that long". This further indicates that perhaps it's not time that's being manipulated, but only our perception of it. I realize that Daniel's time dilation experiment is in conflict with this, but that's all I can think of that would be.

[kwatt99]

I just watched the episode again and when she answered the phone the tone of her voice struck me as the tone you'd have if you thought you might know who is on the other end of the line.

Also, when talking about time travel and its effect on the future remember Dharma and the Valenzetti equation. The purpose of the Dharma project was to change one of the numbers and therefore prevent the end of the world. However, they soon found that no matter what they did, nothing changed the outcome of the equation - meaning the world would indeed end. The woman in Desmond's flashback last year said essentially the same thing.

[skatertsol]

Penny was waiting for the phone call. Desmond said "you believed me" and she said yes.
Good call I forgot that. I was off on my "all about ex's" tirade lol....

[Rain13]

Penny was waiting for the phone call. Desmond said "you believed me" and she said yes.

Desmond says: "You believed me? You still care about me." And Penny says "Yes, I've been looking for you for the last three years." There is a second or two gap between when he says "You believed me?" and "You still care about me".

This is very unclear and still doesn't confirm that she was waiting for the phone call. If Penny was waiting for the call, than Daniel should have remembered Desmond visiting him, and he doesn't, so either Penny wasn't waiting for it or there's something else we're not considering.

[McMason]

Desmond says: "You believed me? You still care about me." And Penny says "Yes, I've been looking for you for the last three years." There is a second or two gap between when he says "You believed me?" and "You still care about me".

This is very unclear and still doesn't confirm that she was waiting for the phone call. If Penny was waiting for the call, than Daniel should have remembered Desmond visiting him, and he doesn't, so either Penny wasn't waiting for it or there's something else we're not considering.

but waht about dan's memory problem

[LoafingDisaster]

I heard what Rain13 said, I also believe somewhere during that conversation that the message from Charlie was why she believed him/was still searching for him? She knew he was out there somewhere because of that? Which possibly made her wait/expect/long for the call?

Although, that is right. If Penny remembers that he asked her to wait, then Daniel should remember some stuff too. Unless, that was the number Penny still had when he went missing and out of hope she's always kept it? Without him asking? It would explain why she didn't say, "Yes, I believe you" but jumps to, "I've been looking for you..."

[Himmel]

i agree that im not sure if penny knows or is waiting ...i mean for gods sake...could she have let that phone ring any longer.....as for the rest....have to think on it for a few...lol

isnt that the truth My God my anwsering machine picks up after a fourth ring. sheesh what was she doing?

[gingergrant]

Why does all of this keep reminding me of Bill and Ted?

Remind me to remind my future self to do that.
Send yourself a fax dude!

[Rain13]

Also, I re-watched the scene and I had one word wrong before, the conversation goes like this:

Desmond says: "You believed me? You still care about me." And Penny says "Des, (Not yes), I've been looking for you for the last three years." There is a second or two gap between when he says "You believed me?" and "You still care about me".

Also, when Desmond says "You believed me?" and pauses, the camera cuts to Penny and she's smiling with joy and clearly not even acknowleding what he had just said. They make it pretty clear that Penny NEVER acknowledges that she was waiting for his call. I think this is important.

[jacksnurse]

yeah i think that i now agree with this...i mean wth....she waits for the 4th or 5th ring for gods sake....if she was waiting u'd think she'd have the phone right next to her...i thought that whole conversation was wierd and i just posted on another thread that she appears to be wearing a wedding ring and rubs her fingers over it while talking on the phone....to who???someone else or were her and des married and he left ??

[Deputy196]

good morning PRINCESS

[LostFreak21]

Penny was waiting for the phone call. Desmond said "you believed me" and she said yes.

Simple as that:)

[jacksnurse]

Simple as that:)

actually not that simple...when desmond first calls and the phone rings many many times.....as if she wasn't waiting...des says penny...and she is like desmond.....penny u answered and she says des where r u like she doesn't know he was going to call....

[Rain13]

Read the whole thread before you post Lostfreak lol, I posted the transcript of what they said twice, and it goes like this:

Desmond: "You believed me? You still care about me."
Penny: "Des, (Not yes), I've been looking for you for the last three years."

There is a second or two gap between when he says "You believed me?" and "You still care about me", and during this gap the camera pans to Penny and she is smiling in ecstacy and clearly not even listening to what he has just said. She never says anything during this whole conversation that would indicate that she was expecting him to call, and furthermore, as Jacksnurse pointed out, she wouldn't have let the phone ring for so long if she knew he was going to call. This woman has, as she just said, devoted the last 3 years of her life and probably millions of dollars to finding Desmond, and if she knew that he was going to call her on a particular day she would have the phone in hand at all times.

[jacksnurse]

Read the whole thread before you post Lostfreak lol, I posted the transcript of what they said twice, and it goes like this:

Desmond: "You believed me? You still care about me."
Penny: "Des, (Not yes), I've been looking for you for the last three years."

There is a second or two gap between when he says "You believed me?" and "You still care about me", and during this gap the camera pans to Penny and she is smiling in ecstacy and clearly not even listening to what he has just said. She never says anything during this whole conversation that would indicate that she was expecting him to call, and furthermore, as Jacksnurse pointed out, she wouldn't have let the phone ring for so long if she knew he was going to call. This woman has, as she just said, devoted the last 3 years of her life and probably millions of dollars to finding Desmond, and if she knew that he was going to call her on a particular day she would have the phone in hand at all times.

well said rain...i'll second that..lol:)

[samanthaleonore]

Alright, one more thing on the Butterfly Effect.

Eloise went to the future, that's how she knew the route of the maze.
But she died in the past. That should have changed everything in the future. If she died early, then everything that had happened in the rest of Eloise's life had she lived would have changed.

Desmond went back to the past. His nosebleeds began in the present. Which makes sense I guess, because both of them experienced the nose bleeds in the period where they became "unstuck in time."

But do you think the fact that Eloise went to the future and Des went to the past is important?

[samanthaleonore]

Why wouldn't Penny have known if Faraday knew?
Faraday wrote it in his journal, but there are no signs of whether he actually remembered the meeting. Still, there was evidence of the meeting in Faraday's journal of some meeting having occured in 1996.
Wouldn't Penny have had some sort of recollection too?

[mahalo_dude]

I am not sure if Penny was waiting for the call or not. She obviously recognized Desmond's voice...and she definitely admitted to have been looking for him...I'm sure in her heart she felt that he would call. She still had to be realistic and be prepared emotionally in case he did not.

[Rain13]

But you're making the mistake of thinking that her looking for him and being excited when he calls means that she was expecting him to call. It does not, and their conversation also implies that she was not expecting him to call. Furthermore, Daniel Faraday has no recollection of meeting Daniel that day, so why would Penny? If Desmond's trips back into time are changing the future that he came from this show is going to get very messed up, so I don't think they are.

[UnknownPoster]

Desmond never specified a time for the call so by this time she may have had many people calling to wish her a merry christmas. She might have just figured it was another well-wisher.
________
Strawberry Cough (http://trichomes.org/marijuana-strains/deep-chunk-x-strawberry-cough/deep-chunk-x-strawberry-cough)

[Rain13]

Again, I would like to know how people who think that Penny expected Desmond's call think the show is going to deal with time travel paradoxes.

[UnknownPoster]

Since I don't really know what time zone Des is in and I don't know what time he makes the call, it is tough to pinpoint when penny actually gets teh call.

If Des is in the same time Zone as Jakarta, he is 7 hours head of Penny. oif he calls t :36 his timeit is ony 12:36 AM her ime on 12/24/04 so it would be natural to not answer immediately.
________
Angelina Jolie Pictures (http://www.angelinajoliepics.com/)

[Rain13]

I don't see what your point is with the time zones or how it matters what time it was when Penny received the call. Again, if you are trying to claim that the Penny in the present time WAS truly visited by Desmond in the past and was expecting Desmond's call, 1. what evidence do you have of this and 2. how will the writers then deal with all of the ramifications of Desmond's actions changing the course of time and thus altering the reality that we have come to know?

[UnknownPoster]

I guess I kind of missed your point in the original post and got caught up in the subesequent posts where people were asking why she waited to answer the phone for so long.

I was trying to say that if someone told me they would call me on 12/24/04 and the phone rang at 12:01 AM on 12/24/04 I might not make the connection immeduiately.

I know, not a valid point. I guess I am just looking to type
________
FULL MELT HASH (http://trichomes.org/hashish/full-melt-hash)

[LoreleyM]

Yeah that's what I'm trying to get at Samantha, if Desmond's actions in the past have effected the future, which they indeed have if we are to believe that Daniel's journal entry is real, than A. why does Daniel have no memory of having met Desmond and B. why did Desmond still end up on the island? ....

I also agree that Penny remembers about the call. On behalf of Daniels lack of memory I have another theory:
Do you remember what exactly has been written in Daniel's journal: sth like "if anything goes wrong, Desmond Hume will be my Constant", right? I think that this is what happened to Daniels memory. Penny is sitting home beneath the xmas tree, nothing wrong. Daniel on the contrary is on the island, which is "not normal". The landing was disturbing, they got problems. All of them went trough same anomalies caused by the island. I think that was what "went wrong" and why Daniel does not remember Desmond.

[mahalo_dude]

I also agree that Penny remembers about the call. On behalf of Daniels lack of memory I have another theory:
Do you remember what exactly has been written in Daniel's journal: sth like "if anything goes wrong, Desmond Hume will be my Constant", right? I think that this is what happened to Daniels memory. Penny is sitting home beneath the xmas tree, nothing wrong. Daniel on the contrary is on the island, which is "not normal". The landing was disturbing, they got problems. All of them went trough same anomalies caused by the island. I think that was what "went wrong" and why Daniel does not remember Desmond.

I think you are on to something there.

[rico_tpb]

Regarding paradoxes, take a toke and think more deeply...

In the fabric of time and space, there may be infinite alternate realities occurring on infinite planes at different times... while a trip through a wormhole and back may affect those 2 specific planes, the reality that's altered would not be the one you return to... it would be the one you left behind. The departed reality's future has yet to occur.

And, oh yeah... I dig that new red-head.

[boyo]

I also think Penny's reaction definitely does not show that there was such a meeting 8 years ago. I mean, if someone so close to you tells you he's going to leave now, but he'll call you in 8 years on a specific day, when he does call you you should be quite shocked. There's no way you're not gonna ask him more about that 8 year thing etc. Plus, the long ringing before she answered the phone also showed that she didn't really expect the call.

[Rain13]

Regarding paradoxes, take a toke and think more deeply...

In the fabric of time and space, there may be infinite alternate realities occurring on infinite planes at different times... while a trip through a wormhole and back may affect those 2 specific planes, the reality that's altered would not be the one you return to... it would be the one you left behind. The departed reality's future has yet to occur.

Okay so than you are agreeing with me. My point is that what Desmond does in the past will not affect the reality where the show is taking place in the present right now, (which is also the reality where he will return). I think the writers have taken the position that Desmond is going back in time, whether it's just his consciousness or not, and that he can interact with the past, but that the way he changes the past will not affect the "present" reality where the show takes place. Don't forget, when Desmond met with that old lady last season who told him that you can't change the future, this is what she meant. That is why Penny was not expecting his call, because even though he did travel into the past and get her phone number, the Penny who is living in the present reality who was on the phone with him was not in the plane of reality where she was visited by Desmond, as he temporarily was.

Do you remember what exactly has been written in Daniel's journal: sth like "if anything goes wrong, Desmond Hume will be my Constant", right? I think that this is what happened to Daniels memory. Penny is sitting home beneath the xmas tree, nothing wrong. Daniel on the contrary is on the island, which is "not normal". The landing was disturbing, they got problems. All of them went trough same anomalies caused by the island. I think that was what "went wrong" and why Daniel does not remember Desmond.

Okay, so if you are asserting that actions committed while travelling to the past will affect the "present" or "future" reality where the person has come from and will return to than how does that happen? There are two possibilities for this:

1. When somebody travels to the past and changes something, then the "present" world where they came from is instantly affected, yet in a kind of direct way, for this new change is now determined to "have always been so". In other words, when Daniel first arrived on the island, when he dropped out of the helicopter, he had already been visited by Desmond even though the Desmond who existed in that current plane of reality had not gone back in time to visit him yet. Instead, he was visited by Desmond because that is just how the course of their lives has always gone. This means that reality is more constant and avoids situations like this: You go back in time to kill your father before he conceived you, thus creating a paradox: If your Father never conceived you than how could you exist to go back in time and kill him? You could not, and thus this would be impossible. Instead, you would find that you would not be able to kill your father no matter how hard you try, or that he would somehow survive.

- or -

2. When Desmond went back in time and visited Daniel in the last episode, Daniel's path in life was altered instantly. When he arrived on the island, he had not been visited because Desmond was still on the island also and hadn't gone back in time yet. As such, the path that he had taken since 1996 was one where he did not yet know how to get Eloise into the future, and thus the Daniel that we knew in his first few episodes was one who discovered time travel at a later date, if at all. As soon as he tells Desmond where to find him and Desmond finds him, he becomes a Daniel who has been visited, and the events that have happened in his life since 1996 have instantly changed and he will thus change to reflect these different experiences. If this is the case, than why did he still end up on the island in exactly the same way and have the exact same knowledge? Desmond's visit to him on that day would have had infinite ramifications that would have drastically changed the course of Daniel's life in ways that no one could predict. As a result, the instant that we saw on-screen that Desmond said a single word to Daniel in the past, Daniel would have changed in the present time. Furthermore, he would have changed every single time Desmond and himself in the past said something. For example, if the Desmond in the past punched him in the face and broke his nose right as he left his office, the shape of "present" Daniel's nose would have changed shape towards the end of Desmond's trip into the past. Hell, Daniel could have even begun to instantly teleported into various locations in the general viscinity where he was standing because everything that Desmond was doing in his past was altering the deterministic sequence of events that led him to be standing where he currently was: The world is deterministic; every event is determined by the infinite events that preceded it and is thus perfectly unique to these events that were themselves unique to the events before them.

Time Travel is a theoretical concept and cannot be rationally discussed given the level of knowledge that human beings currently have of it. These paradoxes that I have mentioned cannot be addressed because not even the most gifted Quantum Physicist in the world would know the answer, and that is why they are so mind boggling and logic-defying to us even though we have such a limited knowledge of the subject ourselves. For this reason, I don't think that the writers are going to attempt to grapple with the conundrum that is time travel.

For those who still think Penny was expecting Desmond's phone call, I ask you this: why do you think the writers chose not to reveal this to us by having Penny acknowledge it? It would have been very simple for them to toss in "I knew you would call!" or even just have her answer "Yes!" when Desmond asked her "You believed me?". Instead, they ensured that she did not answer his question. Don't you think there might be something to the fact that they literally made sure that she did not acknowledge that she was expecting the call? The writers don't seem to do things like this without reason...

[BeansInScenes]

One thing that I haven't seen discussed is, why was Penny searching for exactly 3 years? Why not more or less? What happened 3 years ago that made her decide to start searching?

[jacksnurse]

i didn't even pay attn to that Beans....with all of this other controversy....we ignored an obvious thing...may be important...3 years????

[skatertsol]

One thing that I haven't seen discussed is, why was Penny searching for exactly 3 years? Why not more or less? What happened 3 years ago that made her decide to start searching?
In FLASHES BEFORE YOUR EYES, the ring shop lady tells Des he will spend three years pushing a button. Seems like she started looking when he didn't finish the race. Don't think that's anything suspicious but who knows.

[Rain13]

Yeah that thought had occurred to me when she said it but all this "Was penny waiting" nonesense (why did I start this thread again?) made me forget about it. Also, Desmond wasn't on the island for three years was he? I thought that he had only been in the hatch alone, since that other nasty guy died, for 1 month, and I thought it seemed like he was only there for a few months before that. Again, this would mean that some external event inspired Penny to begin looking.

I'd say that it has something to do with Penny's father. We know at the very least that he's involved with the island since he bought the Black Rock log and is financing the operation to recover the boat, but other evidence points to the idea that he's involved further by possibly being the person behind the freighter folk. Could he have precipitated his daughter's renewed interest in Desmond?

[skatertsol]

Yeah that thought had occurred to me when she said it but all this "Was penny waiting" nonesense (why did I start this thread again?) made me forget about it. Also, Desmond wasn't on the island for three years was he? I thought that he had only been in the hatch alone, since that other nasty guy died, for 1 month, and I thought it seemed like he was only there for a few months before that. Again, this would mean that some external event inspired Penny to begin looking.

I'd say that it has something to do with Penny's father. We know at the very least that he's involved with the island since he bought the Black Rock log and is financing the operation to recover the boat, but other evidence points to the idea that he's involved further by possibly being the person behind the freighter folk. Could he have precipitated his daughter's renewed interest in Desmond?
Yea you didn't disagree with me (I'm not going lie, I'm scared of the wrath of rain j/k!) But seriously, I just said something about this in a different thread-desmond's flashbacks are so few and far between at times, and he disappears for some time from the limelight, that I think he's the most mysterious.....I mean, obviously w/ the connection to Widmore, he's got the big mystery cloud around him. For instance, even if Widmore perceived this renewed interest, doesn't it seem like an awful lot to go thru to keep your daughter away from a guy? My dad usually just cleaned his gun when said boy would come to visit lol. But Rain, I thought he was there for longer. It's hard to tell I'll have to check out that episode again. Just thought it tied the 3 year issue into a nice lil bow :)

[Rain13]

I hope I'm not that scary lol :D I always comes across as a jerk on forums but really I'm a nice guy! But anyway you're right, Desmond has been on the island for about 3 years it seems. I just checked Lostpedia and it says that he was in the hatch with Kelvin (his predecessor) for 2 years, and then obviously he was in there for some time alone and he's been there since partaking in all the shennanigans that the Oceanic survivors are getting into lol. So it's been approximately 2.5-3 years that he's been there, which I think does imply that Penny started to look for him after he disappeared from the race.

[skatertsol]

I hope I'm not that scary lol :D I always comes across as a jerk on forums but really I'm a nice guy! But anyway you're right, Desmond has been on the island for about 3 years it seems. I just checked Lostpedia and it says that he was in the hatch with Kelvin (his predecessor) for 2 years, and then obviously he was in there for some time alone and he's been there since partaking in all the shennanigans that the Oceanic survivors are getting into lol. So it's been approximately 2.5-3 years that he's been there, which I think does imply that Penny started to look for him after he disappeared from the race.
lol not that scary....I tease. I'm glad you looked it up I couldn't remember what episode it was on and was going nuts trying to find it....well at least that solves the 3 year mystery. Was Penny waiting remains unseen.... doubt that one we be answered. I think what's more important is that she did, and it played out as it was supposed to.

[BeansInScenes]

I hope I'm not that scary lol :D I always comes across as a jerk on forums but really I'm a nice guy! But anyway you're right, Desmond has been on the island for about 3 years it seems. I just checked Lostpedia and it says that he was in the hatch with Kelvin (his predecessor) for 2 years, and then obviously he was in there for some time alone and he's been there since partaking in all the shennanigans that the Oceanic survivors are getting into lol. So it's been approximately 2.5-3 years that he's been there, which I think does imply that Penny started to look for him after he disappeared from the race.

Well that makes sense, and I believe you are probably correct. BUT, if that is correct then it would imply that island time and off-island time are the same, since both Desmond and Penny perceive that three years have passed since his boat wrecked.

According to the lostpedia transcript of the episode when Kelvin dies (Live Together, Die Alone), Desmond explicitly says he was in the hatch for 3 years.

[mhzmike]

about an all new "LOST".....

there's no doubt the island involves time travel, as so indicated in a book ( A Brief History of Time) read by "Aldo the Guard" posted outside the Endoctrination Facility at The Dhamra Hydra Station.... please review this book/novel it's FASCINATING !!!...

...now we return to our regularly scheduled programming....

[Rain13]

Well that makes sense, and I believe you are probably correct. BUT, if that is correct then it would imply that island time and off-island time are the same, since both Desmond and Penny perceive that three years have passed since his boat wrecked.

I've been of the mindset that time on the island and time in the rest of the world are the same and are running concurrently, but that travelling to or from the island will result in time shifts. This explains Daniel's payload experiment. When the payload left the freighter, it's clock read the same as his watch on the island. However, somewhere along the way, it took a whole hell of a lot more time than it should have taken to arrive. This would explain why it seems to Jack like that helicopter was gone for 16 hours but to Sayid and Desmond it was only a 30 minute ride.

And to mhzmike, I don't think the presence of "A Brief History of Time" indicates that there is 100% positively time travel going on. A skeptic could easily explain the book's presence as follows: Of course that book would be read by a Dharma worker in the Hydra Station. The people working for Dharma were, if not actually scientists, people who had a great interest in science and particularly theoretical science. It would make sense, than, that they would read a book like "A Brief History of Time" because that's the kind of stuff they find interesting. Hell, I have a copy of "A Brief History of Time" on my bookshelf, does that mean I'm a time traveller? :D Also, don't forget that "A Brief History" is a "popular science" book (meaning that it is written in layman's terms and doesn't get into the meat of the subject, it's written so you and I could fully appreciate it). If Dharma was actually experimenting with Time Travel they wouldn't be reading that book lol. That's like finding a copy of "Human Anatomy for Dummies" on your surgeon's desk right before he performs a triple bypass on you. At that point you would be saying....oh crap! :eek:

[Angelibby]

Personally I would guess that Penny was waiting, and I wouldn't take the not answering for so long to mean alot. I know if it were me and I was expecting a call like that, i would be really nervous. If he said he would call on christmas, and you're sitting there at christmas and all of a sudden you get a call. She may have just froze and not answered out right away of nerves. She obviously still cares about him, searching for 3 years, so to finally get a call when he would have appeared to drop off the earth would make most people nervous. She clearly still cares about him, spending all the time and money, she even tells him she will never stop searching for him whatever it takes and that she loves him. And I'm not sure why it would matter in the long run whether or not she was waiting? Isn't keeping the same number that whole time an obvious indication that she still cares about him?

[PolaBear]

Read the whole thread before you post Lostfreak lol, I posted the transcript of what they said twice, and it goes like this:

Desmond: "You believed me? You still care about me."
Penny: "Des, (Not yes), I've been looking for you for the last three years."

There is a second or two gap between when he says "You believed me?" and "You still care about me", and during this gap the camera pans to Penny and she is smiling in ecstacy and clearly not even listening to what he has just said. She never says anything during this whole conversation that would indicate that she was expecting him to call, and furthermore, as Jacksnurse pointed out, she wouldn't have let the phone ring for so long if she knew he was going to call. This woman has, as she just said, devoted the last 3 years of her life and probably millions of dollars to finding Desmond, and if she knew that he was going to call her on a particular day she would have the phone in hand at all times.

I think that she definately did know he was gonna call. Maybe the phone rang long cause she was in the bathroom. I also think that her look and lack of answering when he says " you believed in me" is because she is amazed that he actually called when he said he was gonna. After all she has been searching for him for three years, and he seems to be completely lost, then he calls from a freighter in the middle of the ocean.

[Rain13]

The reason it's so important, Angelibby, whether she was expecting him to call or not is because if she was waiting, than we know that the writers have taken the position that actions committed while travelling into the past will change the course of the future. If you believe that Penny was waiting for his call than you must justify how you think the writers are going to address time travel paradoxes, such as the Grandfather paradox. I think it's funny how everyone just says "Yep she was waiting" and then leaves it at that. There are huge implications if she was waiting and that's why I started this thread.

[nikegirl]

I'm a bit confused as to how this time travel or whatever it is links into the time he returned to Penny after he turned the fail safe key. Was this 1996 episode before that happened? Because surely that would have some insight into whether she was expecting the phonecall or not. If she had seen him after the 'I'll call you in eight years' time, then it might not have been that significant anymore to her. When they had the photo taken (that Naomi ends up with) was that after he was supposed to have gone back to 1996?

[Rain13]

Desmond's time line goes as follows:

This is shown in flashbacks, not time travelling:

- He meets Penny at the monastary and begins to date her
- Penny moves into Desmond's flat

After Desmond turns the key on the island, he is teleported back in time (for the first time, lol) and this happens:

- He falls off the ladder as he's painting his flat, Penny is there with him and they are in love
- He goes to meet with Mr. Widmore to ask him for his permission to marry Penny, he is told no and then leaves angrily
- He goes home and is consoled by Penny
- A few days/weeks later, he goes to look at rings anyway and this is when he encounters the old lady
- He picks out a ring and is determined to buy it (at this point don't forget that he is fully aware of his future on the island but is perhaps convinced that it is a dream or that he has been given a second chance to relive his life the right way) but the old lady says no, you can't buy it because if you do you wouldn't end up on the island and we will all die
- She takes him outside and predicts that a man is about to die before their eyes, he does in just the way she said, and Desmond asks her why she didn't warn him. She tells him that you can't change fate, and even if she did warn him he would have died in another way later that day
- Desmond does not like this idea that he is bound to the universe and cannot change his path, and runs away in a pout lol, after bumping into Charlie of course and predicting that it is about to start raining (which it does)
- He later meets up with Penny at the ocean with the intention of giving her the ring, but after they get their picture taken and Desmond can't afford to even buy it, he realizes he can't marry her and throws the ring in the ocean, they get into a fight and run off
- He later goes into a pub and correctly predicts the outcome of a soccer game, realizing that he can predict the future. He is then hit in the face with a cricket bat and wakes up on the island

In the meantime, it is not explicitly shown but Desmond decides to join the army after his falling out with Penny. Then this happens after Desmond's latest trip into the past on the freighter:

- He calls Penny and then goes to meet with her, getting her phone number and telling her he will call in 8 years. This is the first time they have seen each other since the day with the picture by the ocean, and it is the last time they have seen each other that we know of

Hope that clears it up a bit.

[bunnydixon]

dont forget the meeting at the stadium between desmond and penny before the boat race.

[Rain13]

Ah yeah I had completely forgotten about that. I suppose that would indeed take place after Desmond's visit to her to get her phone number.

[mahalo_dude]

Was Desmond's "See you in another life, Brutha!" to Jack at the stadium relevant? I think so. Not in reference to Penny specifically, but it seems to indicate that the Desmond who met Jack then was at least as aware of things going on as the 1996 Desmond we saw in Ep5.

[bunnydixon]

but would that meeting still have taken place now that some of the past has changed? the whole give me your number convo? would she have felt the need to track him down at that point?

[Rain13]

Was Desmond's "See you in another life, Brutha!" to Jack at the stadium relevant? I think so. Not in reference to Penny specifically, but it seems to indicate that the Desmond who met Jack then was at least as aware of things going on as the 1996 Desmond we saw in Ep5.

Yeah I made a thread about this called "Lift It Up", check it out it's in the Season 4 forum. But since I forgot to put that event in my timeline, it takes place right before he meets with Penny at the stadium for the last time.

And to answer your question Bunny: Thanks for bringing this up because I had completely forgotten about it! I think this just proves the idea that Desmond's trips into the past aren't changing the future and are instead in simultaneously occurring alternate realities. It does seem awfully strange that Penny would spend lots of money trying to track Desmond down if during the last time they talked he was desperately pleading with her for her phone number. It just seems like when they meet in the stadium that they must have parted ways differently the last time they had met, not in the way that we were shown.

[islander]

The reason it's so important, Angelibby, whether she was expecting him to call or not is because if she was waiting, than we know that the writers have taken the position that actions committed while travelling into the past will change the course of the future. If you believe that Penny was waiting for his call than you must justify how you think the writers are going to address time travel paradoxes, such as the Grandfather paradox. I think it's funny how everyone just says "Yep she was waiting" and then leaves it at that. There are huge implications if she was waiting and that's why I started this thread.

I agree it's important to understand if Penny knew Des would call on 12/24/2004 and if there was proof Des and Dan met in 1996.

But, the fact that (1) she took a long time to answer the phone and (2) a phone conversation that could be spun either way is all you've got to support the assertion she wasn't waiting seems inferior to events that support she was waiting.

In support that she was waiting (1) she was there to answer the phone (2) there was no answering machine (3) she said "Des" after eight years of not talking to him w/o him saying "Penny it's me Des" (4) it appears to be close to Christmas (5) she didn't change her phone number (6) she said she "believed" him which references their conversation in 1996. She knew he'd call. Granted it would have been great had she said, "Des you called the way you said you would eight years ago," but this is Lost and we don't get tid bits like that on a silver platter.

Regarding Dan, the writers have gone through great lengths to show us Dan's memory is bad so the fact that he forgets 1996 Des or what he may have writen in his journal 30 minutes ago is not surprising. But since Dan wrote about Des in his journal they must have met before, and the fact that Dan writes about Des in the context of Des being his constant shows Dan suspected he'd communicate with Des in the future at some point. However, I thought Dan told 1996 Des that your constant had to be someone/something you cared about so I'm not sure why Dan would pick Des since they're not buddies as far as I can tell.

Des did not change the future because as far as we can tell not one event that occured one way pre-Des' displacement to 1996 occurred another way after his displacement. We might believe something changed, but there's no proof that I've seen. Unlike a "Back To The Future scenario" which some forum members have referenced, his displacements were his fate.

Just my opinion.

[Ureval]

My guess is Des was Dans constant because if he had met him in the past, and being that Dan is so involved in temporal theories, Des would be very important to him, a justification for all the experiments that "were looked down on".

[Ureval]

On a side note, from the first time we meet Des on the bleachers I always felt that he knew Jack in some way. Im rewatching all the old episodes so hopefully Ill pick up on stuff that may make more sense now, and post my findings as they come.

[ortrules]

Here's what I find to be extremely shady about the whole Penny thing.

She is out "looking" for Desmond and is seen on a boat after the hatch explodes and they found something on radar (or whatever). Before Charlie dies he gets in contact with Penny, who we assume is still looking for Desmond, on a boat. According to Lost time, Charlie died a couple days ago. So in those couple of days Penny got off a boat looking for Desmond and got home to a fully decorated Christmas tree and such?

I could see if she wanted to be sure to be home by Dec 24, 2004 because Desmond said he would call her then - but then when or why did she spend all that time decorating for Christmas? If she was really committed to searching for Desmond, she'd return home for a day or two and wait for Desmond to call and then get right back out on her boat to continue the search. What would be the point in decorating then?

[Snape]

Here's what I find to be extremely shady about the whole Penny thing.

She is out "looking" for Desmond and is seen on a boat after the hatch explodes and they found something on radar (or whatever). Before Charlie dies he gets in contact with Penny, who we assume is still looking for Desmond, on a boat. According to Lost time, Charlie died a couple days ago. So in those couple of days Penny got off a boat looking for Desmond and got home to a fully decorated Christmas tree and such?

I could see if she wanted to be sure to be home by Dec 24, 2004 because Desmond said he would call her then - but then when or why did she spend all that time decorating for Christmas? If she was really committed to searching for Desmond, she'd return home for a day or two and wait for Desmond to call and then get right back out on her boat to continue the search. What would be the point in decorating then?

Wow, amidst everything else, I totally overlooked this apparent inconsistency.

It's probably been at most a week since Charlie's death and you're right - she's back in London with a fully decorated apartment for Christmas.

Could there be....2 Pennys? Could one of them be the Monster playing tricks (since we know it can take on human form - although the Monster SURELY hasn't met Penny...or has it? And even if we do assume that it WASN'T Penny that Charlie spoke to [and saw] in the finale...why would they warn Charlie that it wasn't the right boat - if it was bad guys, fake Penny would have absolutely wanted the Islanders to find and contact the boat?)?

[justjoe]

Why can't we assume that the present day Daniel does remember meeting Desmond and the reason he came to the island was because while time traveling he was starting to experience what Des went through and knowing that Des was his constant he came to the island for help? Does that make any sense at all?

[TSOLFONAF]

She knew he was going to call because when his mind went back he went to her and told her that he was going to call and to please answer. That is why he said that.

[lostmama]

Maybe there ARE two realities and the Penny from one reality is talking to the Desmond of the other....for example, the Penny that answered the phone is not the same Penny that Des spoke to and told to answer the phone. Couldn't this have happened?

Maybe the Penny that answered the phone really WAS looking for him for 3 years (without having ever spoken to him that day in her apartment) She just went looking for him because he didn't finish the race.

;)

[lostmama]

That could be why when he told him to stay on the "right path" or right coordinates because if not, he could switch over to a different reality??? So when the helicoptor went off it's course, Des wound up in a different path....i.e. diff. reality

[Snape]

Maybe there ARE two realities and the Penny from one reality is talking to the Desmond of the other....for example, the Penny that answered the phone is not the same Penny that Des spoke to and told to answer the phone. Couldn't this have happened?

Maybe the Penny that answered the phone really WAS looking for him for 3 years (without having ever spoken to him that day in her apartment) She just went looking for him because he didn't finish the race.

;)

That....could be true. I actually like that very very much. Charlie did talk to a Penny on a boat. Then Desmond's 1996 self did something different to ensure that Penny was actually at home at that time.

But on second thought, that makes no sense, because then she wouldn't have been on the boat to warn Charlie that it's "NOT PENNY'S BOAT" which is what led them out to the freighter with the crew anyway.

Unless of course in the present they "remember" a different reason for coming out there.

[justjoe]

Are we even sure she was on a boat at that time? And who's to say she wasn't anchored of the coast of Britain?

[Snape]

Are we even sure she was on a boat at that time? And who's to say she wasn't anchored of the coast of Britain?

In trying to think back to that scene...I mean, all he did was turn off the jamming signal. Then I believe Penny's signal came in. And you're right - I don't remember any indication that she was on the boat (I'll check the transcript).

However, if all he did was just turn off a jammer, and her signal was the first one that came up, I think we can assume she was at least <close> to their position. Wherever that may be. And likely (not for sure, but likely) on a boat within 100 miles or so.

[Snape]

I just looked it up.

She said to Charlie, "Boat? What boat?"

So no, I think we can assume she is not on a boat - but probably still nearby as that's the first transmission that came in. Unless if by satellite you can send a signal like that across the world to a ... pretty vast region. I dunno.

[justjoe]

I thought I remember her sitting in an office or something like that. It was a closeup on her head so it's hard to tell. Thanks Snape.

[ortrules]

I thought I remember her sitting in an office or something like that. It was a closeup on her head so it's hard to tell. Thanks Snape.

I thought about that and while we can't confirm whether or not she was on a boat - how could she be in London and make contact with the island? I always had the impression that you had to be close to the island to even know it's there, let alone contact it. And how would Penny know where to find the island if the freighter couldn't find it until they used GPS navigation from their satellite phones? It's just hard for me to believe that Penny happens to find the underwater stations frequency being halfway across the world.

And if she's not on the boat then she has a contact on the freighter - which means she was lying to Charlie when she said she didn't know about any boat.

[Snape]

I thought about that and while we can't confirm whether or not she was on a boat - how could she be in London and make contact with the island? I always had the impression that you had to be close to the island to even know it's there, let alone contact it. And how would Penny know where to find the island if the freighter couldn't find it until they used GPS navigation from their satellite phones? It's just hard for me to believe that Penny happens to find the underwater stations frequency being halfway across the world.

And if she's not on the boat then she has a contact on the freighter - which means she was lying to Charlie when she said she didn't know about any boat.

That's why I was wondering if it's possible for her to send her video signal to a satellite then, and then that satellites beams it down to a region in the south Pacific that is then intercepted by Charlie.

Again, I just don't know if that can be done via satellite. If not, we have to assume she was close to the Island.

[Elmer]

She may have been broadcasting over some sort of open frequency think like old hamm radio. And the boat and the looking glass probably had sufficient equipment to receive those broadcast. She may also no an approximate area where des disappeared from. Not to unbeleivable that she was in london sending the signal they received.

[Snape]

She may have been broadcasting over some sort of open frequency think like old hamm radio. And the boat and the looking glass probably had sufficient equipment to receive those broadcast. She may also no an approximate area where des disappeared from. Not to unbeleivable that she was in london sending the signal they received.

Ok. Agreed.

[TweeterGibson]

OK, One thing everyone is forgetting...2 episodes ago, Daniel and Charlotte were practicing remembering cards!!! I think it is very important because it shows the viewer that daniel, although very smart, quite possibly has memory problems!!! So although daniel doesn't remember meeting des, Penny obviously does..ie-the previous post

[Snape]

OK, One thing everyone is forgetting...2 episodes ago, Daniel and Charlotte were practicing remembering cards!!! I think it is very important because it shows the viewer that daniel, although very smart, quite possibly has memory problems!!! So although daniel doesn't remember meeting des, Penny obviously does..ie-the previous post

All that means is that Daniel has been exposed to radiation while Penny hasn't.

[WhalerDO]

I think we all need to remember a couple of facts...1) once the hatch imploded, Penny was contacted by the Portuguese scientists form some artic research facility. They had originally thought it might have been a mistake (probably seeing the light blink on 9.22.04 when flight 815 crashed due to the system error). and 2) Penny's father bought the ledger of Black Rock, and she states that she knows about the Island when she talks to Desmond on the boat. Also in a past episode Penny states that with enough money you can find anyone (this is from the episode in which she finds Desmond outside the stadium where he first meets Jack).

I think there is more to Penny and her Father and even more with Black Rock.

[Rain13]

Wow, so much happens in this thread everyday that I can't even stay on top of it! Well, let me try to address a few things:

1. There is no reason to believe that Penny was on a boat when she talked to Charlie through the Looking Glass. The reason you guys are thinking this is because the crash survivors and Desmond had initially thought that the freighter was Penny's boat due to the fact that Naomi had the picture of Penny and Desmond. When Charlie was contacted by Penny on the screen, he thought that she was calling him from the boat. However, as is clearly indicated by her "Boat, what boat?" response, she is clearly not on a boat. As she has said before, "with enough money and determination you can find anyone", and I think it's safe to assume that Penny Widmore has the resources to do anything humanly possible, which would include acquiring the technology to contact the island via satellite radio from London. Don't forget, she had that team of people in the arctic monitering electromagnetic pulses or whatever they were doing, so she clearly is beyond technology that would require her to be in close proximity to the island to establish contact.

2. My other question is this, which is the one that I had asked when I started this thread and which no one seems to have answered yet, (forgive me if someone has, this thread is just way too long at this point to follow!). If Penny was expecting Desmond's call and thus the actions committed by Desmond when he travelled back in time did change the future, how can we explain that more things were not changed and that everybody who was affected by Desmond in 1996 (Desmond, Penny, and Daniel) was in the exact same position? There are two ways to look at time travel, and first I'll give the one which is incorrect, but is still seen a lot on TV and in movies.

Option A. If you go back in time and change things, you will go back to the future and you will see these changes having taken effect, thus resulting in a "new reality" of sorts. Let me better illustrate this with an example: You have an ******* neighbor who won't stop having parties really late at night, so you go back in time to when he was at the open house for the house that he lives in and you run him off. When you return to the future, you have a different neighbor! This scenario is false, because since time is an infinitely repeating loop, it would have always been the case in every possible manifestation of reality that this evil neighbor never moved in next to you. If this were the case in Lost, than Daniel's journal entry would not have been there until the exact moment on the show that Desmond travelled back in time, meaning that if he had turned to that same page when he was on the freighter a few days before, it would have been blank.

Now, this is the way that time would actually work:

B. The space-time continum is an infinite loop that continuously repeats itself in the same way infinitely. This is essentially what the old lady told Desmond. This means that the reality that existed even before Desmond travelled back in time was the same reality that would exist right after. This also means that when Desmond crashed his sailboat on the island, he had already told Penny that he would call in 8 years, and this wasn't something that would only happen once 2004 came and he went back in time. Now while this is a more authentic scenario given our understanding of how time travel would hypothetically work, it does pose several problems. IF in 1996 Daniel was visited by Desmond and given the correct numbers to make his time travel machine work, than Daniel would have known this even before he met Desmond on the island. Given the way he reacts to Desmond and the fact that he seems to be just as baffled that Desmond is experiencing time travel as anyone else, (and the fact that he has to ask Desmond what year it is in order to figure out where he would be, because if he truly was visited by Desmond than he would already know where he would visit him), this poses a problem.

Now, some of you are trying to use Daniel's memory loss as the solution to this problem. Yes, he does seem to have what appears to be memory loss, and this seems like a perfect answer: He forgets meeting Desmond in 1996! But, if this were the case, how would he not only know 1. exactly where he was that day 2. exactly the correct numbers that he would have to be told and 3. the entire Eloise situation? Why is it that he forgets the single most important part of that day (that he was visited by a man from the future who told him how to achieve time travel) and yet remembers all these other details? Likewise, how is it possible that after 8 years of carrying around the same notebook he would not have seen the "Desmond is your constant" note and remembered this name? Sorry, it's one thing to forget about Desmond visiting you but it's another thing to open up your notebook every day and see his name and then forget it again, every day!This question cannot be answered logically in my opinion, and thus must mean that the Daniel who is speaking to Desmond on the phone and telling him to go find him in the past was never visited by Desmond. Since we know that time is a continuous reality, and that IF Desmond truly did travel back in time to meet with Daniel that he would have also done so in EVERY instance of reality, this proves that what Desmond is experiencing is not true time travel, and thus is not affecting the future.

What I think is that they're playing with the idea that he is only achieving time travel of the consciousness and is travelling to an alternate reality that is not linked with our own. While he can interact with this alternate reality, ultimately his interactions with it will not affect the reality that he returns to which is the reality where the show takes place.

[Ureval]

Youve been championing this train of thought for some time, and while it may be true, I just cant buy it. Ive said this a few times now, and I think with shows like this there is the danger of overthinking things.

My guess: when we dig too deeply we run the risk of forgetting that while the writers have a general idea of where the show is going, many things have changed their plans. For example: Michelle Rodriguez and Cynthia Watros getting a DUI, having Jack Shephard as the lead character (it was initially supposed to be Kate), people wanting to leave (the actor playing MR Eko for example) etc.

I have no doubt that I love this show, but I remember too that its a LONG running series so there may be bound to be inconsistancies, and when there are we just have to wink at it and enjoy the ride.

My opinion: either time travel changes the past or time is set in stone. Alternate realites just seem too farfetched.

All this respectfully :) (I could be wrong)

[Snape]

Nah, Rain13 has a very good point. But I think selective memory loss by the writers is still a way around it - no matter how implausible it may seem to us.