Desmond's Timeline Diagram

[d43m0n]

Hello,

I was trying to come up with a timeline for the important events in desmond's life, and I ended up drawing one so I thought I'd share it with you, in the hope that it will clear some things and maybe understand more of how time travel works in Lost. Post your ideas,corrections,etc :)

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/5523/destimelinemi7.jpg

[chester]

Has anyone worked this out yet?

[LissaMarie]

How time travel works on Lost?!

Yes please! Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

[krakup]

i don't know, do you? i have a few ideas

i give you %100 for effort d43

[chester]

i don't know, do you? i have a few ideas

i give you %100 for effort d43

Kinda. What's with the tuning fork thing, and what does the "original timeline" and "changed timeline" bifurcation mean. Is D43 Mon saying they have shown us two separate timelines already!?

[krakup]

Kinda. What's with the tuning fork thing, and what does the "original timeline" and "changed timeline" bifurcation mean. Is D43 Mon saying they have shown us two separate timelines already!?

kinda like what i was getting, possibly we have seen different outcomes in the same timeline. as illustrated by charlie being familiar at one point and ignored at another. faraday "popping into des's memory" is another one that i think points to "rules" or mechanics of time travel in Lost

[chester]

kinda like what i was getting, possibly we have seen different outcomes in the same timeline. as illustrated by charlie being familiar at one point and ignored at another. faraday "popping into des's memory" is another one that i think points to "rules" or mechanics of time travel in Lost

Yes. Very well done D43. Makes sense to me now. So when Desmond turns the failsafe, he goes back in time and changes a previous reality. And have shown us both the previous reality and the changed one throughout the show.

I guess an additiion to the diagram could be when he gets the ring and meets up with Hawking. Maybe her appearance could be the very course correction she ends up talking about, which could be depicted as bringing the divergent "timelines" closer?

[chester]

Yes. Thank you very much D43m0n!! Brilliant!

I guess my only question would be was his conscience time-travel to his time in the army to the original time-line or the changed time-line?

[krakup]

poor guy/girl posted in 08, went to all that trouble and what did we say? nothing that's what we said. what did we do? did we post any insightful or encouraging comments?nothing that's what we did. nay, i fear d43mon is long gone. posted and left in disgust

[lost-a-lot]

d43m0n, I accuse you of being ahead of your time.

[LissaMarie]

poor guy/girl posted in 08, went to all that trouble and what did we say? nothing that's what we said. what did we do? did we post any insightful or encouraging comments?nothing that's what we did. nay, i fear d43mon is long gone. posted and left in disgust

I think you're right, Krak. Shame on the lot of us! And I agree, Lost-a-lot...WAY ahead of his time and sadly underappreciated.

Krak, you and Chester seem to be doing well in his absence though. Keep it up, Ozzies!:)

[lost-a-lot]

I think you're right, Krak. Shame on the lot of us! And I agree, Lost-a-lot...WAY ahead of his time and sadly underappreciated.

Krak, you and Chester seem to be doing well in his absence though. Keep it up, Ozzies!:)

Absolutely! I should say "ahead of my time." It took ages for me to see what many of you recognize and allow for. :)

[LissaMarie]

Speak freely, Lost-a-lot! Most of us are just talking out of our butts anyway!! :D

I think it's nickname time! Lost-a-lot just takes too long to type (or I'm too damn lazy)! How about LAL?

[losttime]

How time travel works on Lost?!

Yes please! Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

It can work fine because of alternate worlds allows for anything not "adding up" LOL

Sorry just had to throw that in there.

[lost-a-lot]

Speak freely, Lost-a-lot! Most of us are just talking out of our butts anyway!! :D

I think it's nickname time! Lost-a-lot just takes too long to type (or I'm too damn lazy)! How about LAL?

Hey, that sounds good to me, Lissa. (Lissa?) :)

I think d43m0n's model is correct, but there's something that puzzles me. On-Island Des would be the product of a reality in which he doesn't physically visit Faraday at Oxford. Yet on-Island Faraday appears to be the one who was visited since he has the device coordinates and suffers from memory loss due his using the device. So did one or the other cross worlds when he reached the Island? Or does it mean two Faradays were visited in like manner and that the realities are codependent? What do you guys think?

[LissaMarie]

Hmmmm. That's pretty heavy, LAL, but I guess I'm lost as to how you have come to the conclusion that on-island Faraday is the one that on-island Des visited? Isn't that the purpose of him writing in his journal (aside from the memory loss) or am I not getting something?

GREAT post (and Lissa works just fine - it's better than what some here call me)!! :)

[chester]

Hello,

I was trying to come up with a timeline for the important events in desmond's life, and I ended up drawing one so I thought I'd share it with you, in the hope that it will clear some things and maybe understand more of how time travel works in Lost. Post your ideas,corrections,etc :)

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/5523/destimelinemi7.jpg

Should there be another tuning fork at the second red dot, where there would be a previous timeline and a new timeline again because Desmond travels in time again, seeing the future and thereby changing his past/present?

[LissaMarie]

Chester, I'm not sure if that makes sense, unless it's possible to quantify if Des returned to an existing timeline or if a new one was created? I just have no idea how to do that!

[chester]

I'm thinking something like this. So that the 'original timeline' ends each time someone goes back and makes a new time line. I like the way D43 did the helical wrap thing with the time-lines too..

[LissaMarie]

Well that is very interesting indeed! I really love this thread and love the notion of creating a visual map of the confusing topic of time travel. I only wish the OP was here as well! :)

So when Dezzie found Penny, as his constant, do you think he re-joined the original timeline or was a new one created or both?

[chester]

I think it stopped the bouncing around, consciously, in time. And he was then stuck in the latest version of the time-line when this happened.

I wish the OP was here too.

[LissaMarie]

I think it stopped the bouncing around, consciously, in time. And he was then stuck in the latest version of the time-line when this happened.

I wish the OP was here too.

Yes, I agree that he stopped bouncing around consciously but I was curious what your thoughts were on the time-line topic. So you think he then returned to the original time-line, correct?

I'm wondering if there is a distinction, in theory, between physically time-traveling and consciously time-traveling and that is why the OP didn't originally add a "tuning fork"?

Perhaps the only action that would cause an alternate time-line to be created would be physical time-travel? What are your thoughts, Chester?

[chester]

Yes, I agree that he stopped bouncing around consciously but I was curious what your thoughts were on the time-line topic. So you think he then returned to the original time-line, correct?

I'm wondering if there is a distinction, in theory, between physically time-traveling and consciously time-traveling and that is why the OP didn't originally add a "tuning fork"?

Perhaps the only action that would cause an alternate time-line to be created would be physical time-travel? What are your thoughts, Chester?

No, I think once a change has been made to a previous timeline, that previous timeline (or the original one if it has not been changed before) is then just part of the hyper-past. If I could, I would try to do a 3-dimensional diagram where going back in time (physically and/or consciously) changing things, ie, creating a new timeline, makes a new layer. So the latest 'timeline would be on the surface (like the bark of a tree), and previous timelines would be underneath (the hyper-past would be in the rings of the trunk).

So the one timeline that would be on the surface, after all the time-travelling, would include Desmond while in the army, and Desmond while on the Freighter; they're just at different heights. It would just be an alternate timeline than they would have been on if there wasn't any timetravelling going on; new layers have been added due to time-travelling.

[LissaMarie]

Very well said, Chester. It's difficult to explain with only words but I think you explained it very clearly...at least I think I was able to follow!

So you said: "So the one timeline that would be on the surface, after all the time-travelling, would include Desmond while in the army, and Desmond while on the Freighter; they're just at different heights."

The way I'm visualizing your 3-D timeline is kind of like a staircase (I love the tree analogy but my mind sees steps on a staircase for some reason)? So my question is what do you think creates a new step or new layer? Time-travel in and of itself, whether that be physically or consciously, regardless of what happens while in that time?

[chester]

Yeah, like a spiral staircase, on the surface.

I think a new step or layer or timeline or reality, is caused by having knowledge of the the existing timeline before it's about to happen, and using that knowledge to enact something new. So I guess it could be either physical/bodily time-travel and well as just the conscious sort.

For example, if once upon a time there was a Desmond who was in the army but didn't have any weird timetravelling experiences, and go and see Faraday in Oxford, etc, until that Desmond ended up leaving some mysterious island in a chopper some time in the future, which caused the consciousness timetravel stuff to happen. Then the act of the conscious timetravel stuff happening, thereby created a new reality/timeline.

[LissaMarie]

So the orignal timeline would move forward until time-travel occured and then a step would be added. The traveler then would travel back to current time but it would be on this new step timeline, with all of the events between the past and current time (memories) along this new timeline? Am I understanding your ideas?

[chester]

So the orignal timeline would move forward until time-travel occured and then a step would be added. The traveler then would travel back to current time but it would be on this new step timeline, with all of the events between the past and current time (memories) along this new timeline? Am I understanding your ideas?

Yes, I think so :)

When someone goes back in time, that timeline, or reality, stops there. A new timeline, or reality, is then created where the timetraveller travels to. Which is the same as the previous timeline except for any changes that get made (and their butterfly effects, but which also can get 'corrected') due to having knowledge of the previous timeline. This changed timeline, is then the existing reality until someone else travels back in time and changes it.

Is that what you said?

[LissaMarie]

LOL! Yes, in a manner of speaking. :)

I like your addition of the butterfly effect, Chester. That is something that I see as a vital part of it as well. So the past that was traveled to and everything up to the present, or the point that was traveled back to, would be reshuffled or reset, allowing for changes and butterfly effect. I like it! Thanks for helping me visualize!

[chester]

So we could model it just by using a stick and a roll of tape.

The big bang starts at one end of the stick, where the beginning of the tape is fixed. Time then rotates the stick and the tape gets wrapped around in a helical fashion. This happens until someone travels back in time. In which case the tape gets torn off and reattached to the stick to where the timetraveller travels to, and proceeds to continue to be wrapped around the stick, just now over the top of the previous history.

Everthing preceding the point where the tape gets reattached is still the same, so most things are likely to continue on as they did before, just with whatever changes are made by the timetraveller having their effect. As well as 'course correction', which might actually just be other people travelling back in time to get things back to how they were 'before'.

[losttime]

Yes, I think so :)

When someone goes back in time, that timeline, or reality, stops there. A new timeline, or reality, is then created where the timetraveller travels to. Which is the same as the previous timeline except for any changes that get made (and their butterfly effects, but which also can get 'corrected') due to having knowledge of the previous timeline. This changed timeline, is then the existing reality until someone else travels back in time and changes it.

Is that what you said?

So Chester whenever they went back in time yo uare saying it obliterates everything that happened to them before the time skip back in time?

Would that be conversely wha thappens if you time skipto a future date and do something tha twould have been different if you didnt?

Like lets say you time skip 2 hrs hrs in the future and you get skipped to Ca when you were supposed to be in NY. Does that mean what happened before that time skip would have to be adjusted to makeit so you are in Ca at that time?

[LostandAlone]

I think you're right, Krak. Shame on the lot of us! And I agree, Lost-a-lot...WAY ahead of his time and sadly underappreciated.

Krak, you and Chester seem to be doing well in his absence though. Keep it up, Ozzies!:)

Ozzies !:eek: I always thought it was Aussies! Boy is my face red!:o



(poor d43m0n )

[LissaMarie]

So we could model it just by using a stick and a roll of tape.

The big bang starts at one end of the stick, where the beginning of the tape is fixed. Time then rotates the stick and the tape gets wrapped around in a helical fashion. This happens until someone travels back in time. In which case the tape gets torn off and reattached to the stick to where the timetraveller travels to, and proceeds to continue to be wrapped around the stick, just now over the top of the previous history.

Everthing preceding the point where the tape gets reattached is still the same, so most things are likely to continue on as they did before, just with whatever changes are made by the timetraveller having their effect. As well as 'course correction', which might actually just be other people travelling back in time to get things back to how they were 'before'.

Ozzies !:eek: I always thought it was Aussies! Boy is my face red!:o

Chester, that is perfect! Great explanation. Simple and easy to comprehend. Nice!

Jas, Chester was giving me a hard time because of how I pronounced Aussie. I guess, in Aussie-ese, it's pronounced Ozzie. I was just razzing him by spelling it that way. :D

[LostandAlone]

Chester, that is perfect! Great explanation. Simple and easy to comprehend. Nice!

Jas, Chester was giving me a hard time because of how I pronounced Aussies. I guess, in Aussie-ese, it's pronounced Ozzie. I was just razzing him by spelling it that way. :D

I think that is so cool you guys met! (I have a lot to say about that.) I'll PM you later!:)

[chester]

So Chester whenever they went back in time yo uare saying it obliterates everything that happened to them before the time skip back in time?

Would that be conversely wha thappens if you time skipto a future date and do something tha twould have been different if you didnt?

Like lets say you time skip 2 hrs hrs in the future and you get skipped to Ca when you were supposed to be in NY. Does that mean what happened before that time skip would have to be adjusted to makeit so you are in Ca at that time?

Not obliterated. It's still there. If you could peel off the top layer of tape, you'd see it. Things that happened in it were important and causal to what happened in the layer on top, because it was this reality that allowed for the time-traveller to travel back in time and 'effect history'.

The FlashForward you described would be the same thing, I reckon. Having knowledge of the events that happen on some part of the tape before you, would itself be cause to add a new layer of tape at that point.

[LissaMarie]

I think that is so cool you guys met! (I have a lot to say about that.) I'll PM you later!:)

It was very cool, LA! I sure wish everyone was there but it was wonderful none the less!

Bring it on, sistah! Looking forward to hearing all about it.:)

[chester]

Chester, that is perfect! Great explanation. Simple and easy to comprehend. Nice!

Jas, Chester was giving me a hard time because of how I pronounced Aussie. I guess, in Aussie-ese, it's pronounced Ozzie. I was just razzing him by spelling it that way. :D

We pronounce Australia, like "Oz-trail-ya". So "Ozzy" is the phonetic abbreviation of that. Even though it's spelt Aussie, which American's seem to want to pronounce like "Awe-See". Which just sounds funny. :p hee hee

[lost-a-lot]

Hey, that sounds good to me, Lissa. (Lissa?) :)

I think d43m0n's model is correct, but there's something that puzzles me. On-Island Des would be the product of a reality in which he doesn't physically visit Faraday at Oxford. Yet on-Island Faraday appears to be the one who was visited since he has the device coordinates and suffers from memory loss due his using the device. So did one or the other cross worlds when he reached the Island? Or does it mean two Faradays were visited in like manner and that the realities are codependent? What do you guys think?

Hmmmm. That's pretty heavy, LAL, but I guess I'm lost as to how you have come to the conclusion that on-island Faraday is the one that on-island Des visited? Isn't that the purpose of him writing in his journal (aside from the memory loss) or am I not getting something?

GREAT post (and Lissa works just fine - it's better than what some here call me)!! :)

Shame on them, Lissa. :) Thanks, and sorry for the late reply... Well, I mean that it wasn’t on-island Des who visited Faraday. (Or he’s not known to have.) It was anOther Des in the alternate reality diagramed in the OP who met Faraday – the one who crossed realities and used on-island Des as a vessel. *shrug* I don’t know... It's a noodle scratcher.

[lost-a-lot]

I like the staircase and overlapping tape analogies ya’ll are using. It helps me to picture the realities sequentially. The universe expands, reverses, and then reemerges in exact agreement with its predecessor up to the appearance of a traveler from the preceding incarnation. And like you said, Chester, events may disagree from there.

But is there an indefinite number of steps? Does anyone else suspect that LOST-verse will end up being some grand causal loop – that the 'top' step is the 'bottom'?

[losttime]

Not obliterated. It's still there. If you could peel off the top layer of tape, you'd see it. Things that happened in it were important and causal to what happened in the layer on top, because it was this reality that allowed for the time-traveller to travel back in time and 'effect history'.

The FlashForward you described would be the same thing, I reckon. Having knowledge of the events that happen on some part of the tape before you, would itself be cause to add a new layer of tape at that point.

OK but after they did travel back than that previous timline of events is no longer needed since it was already made to go back then.

That is what the diagram you had wasshowing. A B C D E you are at E and go back to B than you start over from B with a new set of downs so-to speak until the next timeskip back occurs. Or was I reading that diagram wrong. Sorry forgot the name of it.

To me I still think what Faraday said holds true about WHH and what Dr Chang said about the rules that can never be broken.

I know some think it measn that if somethign happened in 94 and someone goes back to it than it has to be identical to be WHH

But just like if someone going back in time to 1912 and goes on the Titanic ship and tells the captain that the boat is going to crash because of an iceberg somethign will happen that makes the captain not believe it or whatever but the Titanic will founder anyway.

I guess Season 6 will answer whether they actually changed anything on the thigns they did or was already a part of time itself.

[LostandAlone]

We pronounce Australia, like "Oz-trail-ya". So "Ozzy" is the phonetic abbreviation of that. Even though it's spelt Aussie, which American's seem to want to pronounce like "Awe-See". Which just sounds funny. :p hee hee

Eye-See :p hee hee back atcha

[chester]

I like the staircase and overlapping tape analogies ya’ll are using. It helps me to picture the realities sequentially. The universe expands, reverses, and then reemerges in exact agreement with its predecessor up to the appearance of a traveler from the preceding incarnation. And like you said, Chester, events may disagree from there.

But is there an indefinite number of steps? Does anyone else suspect that LOST-verse will end up being some grand causal loop – that the 'top' step is the 'bottom'?

Care to expand on this thought at all, lost-a-lot?

[lost-a-lot]

I can’t add much of anything scientific, Chester. Honestly, the time-travel stuff is a real headache. I was thinking today about time-travel in the Faustian World you brought up once and darn near had an aneurism!

It just seems some things, added up, may point to there being no original timeline. Things like the ‘balance’ imagery of the Dharma logo. Yin yang has popped up somewhere... The ‘reincarnation’ anagram may have further meaning. The symbiotic banyan – that seemed important once. Mirrors and more mirrors. There’s Rose’s déjà vu moment in the Pilot and Locke’s causal toy from way back. -- Locke’s very strong sense of destiny. There are possible causal loops in Faraday’s name and Faraday’s machine settings. The seemingly self-existing compass’ 360° may be doubly symbolic.

It would be a bit of a bummer, though. The universe as a multi-faceted but unchanging cycle means that everything is predetermined. But the illusion of free agency a cross-reality traveler can enjoy is, IMO, far more palatable than the contrivances necessary to maintain the illusion in a basic one-timeline time-travel drama. ugh

[LissaMarie]

I can’t add much of anything scientific, Chester. Honestly, the time-travel stuff is a real headache. I was thinking today about time-travel in the Faustian World you brought up once and darn near had an aneurism!

It just seems some things, added up, may point to there being no original timeline. Things like the ‘balance’ imagery of the Dharma logo. Yin yang has popped up somewhere... The ‘reincarnation’ anagram may have further meaning. The symbiotic banyan – that seemed important once. Mirrors and more mirrors. There’s Rose’s déjà vu moment in the Pilot and Locke’s causal toy from way back. -- Locke’s very strong sense of destiny. There are possible causal loops in Faraday’s name and Faraday’s machine settings. The seemingly self-existing compass’ 360° may be doubly symbolic.

It would be a bit of a bummer, though. The universe as a multi-faceted but unchanging cycle means that everything is predetermined. But the illusion of free agency a cross-reality traveler can enjoy is, IMO, far more palatable than the contrivances necessary to maintain the illusion in a basic one-timeline time-travel drama. ugh

Yeah, what he (or she) said.:cool:

Honesty LAL, I appreciate your thoughts very much. I think TPTB are in a pickle and no matter how they resolve the time issue, some will be disappointed. My hope is that they actually take a stand one way or the other and don't just leave it unresolved. That's copping out as far as I'm concerned.

I'm interested in your determination that no original timeline means that everything is predetermined. How did you come to that conclusion? I agree 100% that free-will (although you used the term free agency - is this the same? I only know that term in the context of sports, so I'm a bit confused.:o) is A LOT more palatable!:)

[chester]

I can’t add much of anything scientific, Chester. Honestly, the time-travel stuff is a real headache. I was thinking today about time-travel in the Faustian World you brought up once and darn near had an aneurism!

It just seems some things, added up, may point to there being no original timeline. Things like the ‘balance’ imagery of the Dharma logo. Yin yang has popped up somewhere... The ‘reincarnation’ anagram may have further meaning. The symbiotic banyan – that seemed important once. Mirrors and more mirrors. There’s Rose’s déjà vu moment in the Pilot and Locke’s causal toy from way back. -- Locke’s very strong sense of destiny. There are possible causal loops in Faraday’s name and Faraday’s machine settings. The seemingly self-existing compass’ 360° may be doubly symbolic.

It would be a bit of a bummer, though. The universe as a multi-faceted but unchanging cycle means that everything is predetermined. But the illusion of free agency a cross-reality traveler can enjoy is, IMO, far more palatable than the contrivances necessary to maintain the illusion in a basic one-timeline time-travel drama. ugh

I think that aneurism is contagious.

What do you mean by a "multifaceted but unchanging cycle", as compared to "basic one-timeline"?

In the model with the stick and tape, everyone still has free-will (or agency). But there's still really only one time-line - ie., one (never ending?) roll of tape.

By "Faustian World" do you mean one where time-travellers have used their ability to set things up to suit them at the expense of the rest they work to keep ignorant of the fact, or a "mirror" type world that could exist amongst us but be immune from our detection?

[lost-a-lot]

Lissa, thanks! and likewise. (I’m a guy, btw.)

Say there are just two realities. Reality A leads to B, and B leads to A. Both are real; neither is original. If there’s a loop, all 'choices' made are inevitable because a loop will not vary. It’s WHH & WH will H. It's WHWH, WWHH, WHWWHWHzkiwkjiawwfudge

chester, sorry. Instead of 'basic one-timeline story,' make that 'one reality story,' or a WHH story with no hidden realities. The individual realities in a cycle would be facets of the unchanging whole. a-b-c-a-b-c

I'm interested in the backward time and entropy (are they the same?) ascribed to the supposed Faustian World and was wondering if that idea might be necessary to support codependent, regenerating realities in LOST, whether it’s just two worlds (universes) or some larger system. But even if the idea has merit, it’s beyond me...

Stalemate is just a possibility, though. Travelers to the past in your description are free agents, so there would be a chance for the bad guy(s) in LOST to win. That’s good drama.

[chester]

I think d43m0n's model is correct, but there's something that puzzles me. On-Island Des would be the product of a reality in which he doesn't physically visit Faraday at Oxford. Yet on-Island Faraday appears to be the one who was visited since he has the device coordinates and suffers from memory loss due his using the device. So did one or the other cross worlds when he reached the Island? Or does it mean two Faradays were visited in like manner and that the realities are codependent? What do you guys think?

Maybe Faraday found some other way to come up with the right 'device coordinates', like good ol' trial and error say, before time-travelling Des came to see him and just gave them to him?

[tpbaxter]

Hello,

I was trying to come up with a timeline for the important events in desmond's life, and I ended up drawing one so I thought I'd share it with you, in the hope that it will clear some things and maybe understand more of how time travel works in Lost. Post your ideas,corrections,etc :)

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/5523/destimelinemi7.jpg

How did I ever miss this conversation? I need to venture outside the general discussion area more often I suppose. I like that people are making diagrams, timelines, and flow charts to explain Lost now. I agree; A for effort on the OP.

[notsolost42]

How did I ever miss this conversation? I need to venture outside the general discussion area more often I suppose. I like that people are making diagrams, timelines, and flow charts to explain Lost now. I agree; A for effort on the OP.

Geeez Baxie, you really do need to get out more!!! :D