You must plunge it into his heart, dont let him speak. [Archive]

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Potatoes

03-29-2010, 09:04 PM

Hmm... didnt MIB tell Richard the same thing Dogen told Sayid? He told Richard to not let "The devil" Speak. He said you must plunge it into his heart and if you let him speak it will already be to late. Did dogen think that MIB was Jacob? I find it odd that what they said was pretty similar. I dont think its possible to kill MIB either. Otherwise, if he is the evil and evil cant get out, wouldnt they just kill him? Then there wouldnt be anything to protect. I dont think Jacob told Dogen thats how you kill smocke considering I dont think its even POSSIBLE to kill MIB. Was Dogen being lied to?
Any thoughts?

3d-aholic

03-29-2010, 09:22 PM

Yes, I believe the implication is that you must plunge the knife deep into the heart of the other guys "Philosophy"

Greg Dharma

03-29-2010, 09:40 PM

if jacob can be "killed", so can MiB.

Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid

03-29-2010, 09:43 PM

Yes, I believe the implication is that you must plunge the knife deep into the heart of the other guys "Philosophy"

how come he didn't die then? does it have to be plunged by someone "pure in heart" or something like that? (to knock out his philosophy)? :confused:

3d-aholic

03-29-2010, 09:44 PM

how come he didn't die then? does it have to be plunged by someone "pure in heart" or something like that? (to knock out his philosophy)? :confused:

I believe it has to be someone of his own philosophy. Someone with a different philosophy or a mere mortal can't do it.
Same thing really with Jacob. RA would not have been able to kill Jacob. They don't show us that because he would have both confused people and let too much out of the bag.

Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid

03-29-2010, 09:46 PM

I believe it has to be someone of his own philosophy. Someone with a different philosophy or a mere mortal can't do it.
Same thing really with Jacob.

ok, I get it.
and hey! are you in hiding, 3D? :D

3d-aholic

03-29-2010, 09:51 PM

ok, I get it.
and hey! are you in hiding, 3D? :D

I'm here. :confused:

Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid

03-29-2010, 09:53 PM

I'm here. :confused:

Your invisibility shield is up.

3d-aholic

03-29-2010, 10:03 PM

Your invisibility shield is up.
Trying not to scare everyone off. ;)

Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid

03-29-2010, 10:09 PM

Trying not to scare everyone off. ;)

Pfffft! :D
Hey, I got a question.... if notso and you were the only souls on the forum... would either of you hear the other speak? :D:D

JohnQ

03-29-2010, 10:13 PM

I happen to believe that Smokey can be killed. I still don't think he is evil incarnate. There is more of an explanation as to why MiB wants to kill Jacob besides the fact that Jacob and the Island keep Smokey imprisoned and away from the rest of the world. Just have to wait...Sigh...

Cee

03-30-2010, 03:57 AM

I'm not sure you can say Ben had the same philosophy as Jacob unless Jacob is manipulating people to bring out their weakest points.

3d-aholic

03-30-2010, 08:10 AM

I'm not sure you can say Ben had the same philosophy as Jacob unless Jacob is manipulating people to bring out their weakest points.
He was an other. Not just an other but a perfect Tabula Rasa other cleansed at temple waters. Not just any other but the leader of the others. He was a perfect empiricist in the sense that he had absolutely no "moral conscious" whatsoever. He was also a candidate.

He was not just the same philosophy as Jacob...but he was darn near the best empiricist on the island....better than Jacob even. When I say philosophy I don't mean they both ate at the same restaurant. I mean they were both empiricists and the person that killed him was his own leader.

shotgun willy

03-30-2010, 09:01 AM

how come he didn't die then? does it have to be plunged by someone "pure in heart" or something like that? (to knock out his philosophy)? :confused:

i thought he didnt die because he had already spoken to sayid. Dogan said if you hear him speak itll be too late to kill him

3d-aholic

03-30-2010, 09:14 AM

i thought he didnt die because he had already spoken to sayid. Dogan said if you hear him speak itll be too late to kill him

He didn't speak. He saw him and he stabbed him and then Locke removed the knife and said, "Now Sayid why'd you go and do that?" and Sayid said, "Because I was told to"

3d-aholic

03-30-2010, 09:16 AM

how come he didn't die then? does it have to be plunged by someone "pure in heart" or something like that? (to knock out his philosophy)? :confused:

It could also be that. It could be only the candidates could do it...and Sayid had already died. They could write it either way still.

Czechmate

03-30-2010, 09:50 AM

3d-aholic

03-30-2010, 10:09 AM

I think that the "do not let him speak" reference is a red herring. It's just because MIB and Jacob both know that their opponants are master manipulators and so lay down the rule to their pawns, but that it is not inherantly necessary to prevent speaking, that prevents or creates a perfect kill.

Yes I agree with you...but it wouldn't call it a red herring...its very much "information" because as you say...they are both master manipulators and con artists. Although it appears that smokie was originally a really "POOR" one...he's gotten a lot better. That also is information/clue. All of these are clues from my standpoint because they all go back to my theory....even the tinyest thing like that weaves back in.

Czechmate

03-30-2010, 10:11 AM

3d-aholic

03-30-2010, 10:23 AM

yeah I guess you're right. I don't exactly know the true definition of red herring anyway. (gonna have to look that up now that I think about it. I know the gist of it, but I probably don't use the term correctly all the time)

Yeh, I don't know either.

However, I thought a red herring was a true, honest to god deception by TPTB. Like l really believe the good -vs- Evil theme running through this season is an honest to god RED HERRING.

TCC -VS WHH... RED HERRING...they are both true in the show.

Whereas a lie/deception within the show is really a point of subjective "interpretation". Someone can look at that on its "face value" or look for a "hidden meaning". I'm saying on face value, what they said to Sayid and RA was deceptive; however, if you see the hidden meaning, there is value in those statements still.

A Red Herring has no value whatsoever?

LostFreak21

03-30-2010, 10:34 AM

Flocke did speak he said hello Sayid or something like that.

If you can change yourself from a person to a smoke monster.... that isn't a real person to me. Somehow MIB must have been killed when he was a real person.

shotgun willy

03-30-2010, 02:10 PM

Flocke did speak he said hello Sayid or something like that.

thank you.

im pretty sure as well that MiB said something to Sayid before Sayid stabbed him

Spider_Pig

03-30-2010, 05:54 PM

Technically you can't kill Smokie if hes in the form of another, it's like a mirror image with the physical touch, and he can do harm being in the physical mirror image of someone else.

I think one of the reasons why they're building up those things around the Sub is to kill Smokie, I think they're going to trap him in there, and then turn all those sonic sound things on which would kill Smokie, that's why Widmore was happy about the idea of bringing the Smoke Monster into his camp, and that's why Smokie won't go there himself, and got Sawyer to investigate, because he couldn't. Widmore was smiling, that's why he I think hes happy about the idea.

On another note, Jacob can fight back as we saw him smash Richard in a fight, well Richard didn't really fight back very well (poor guy), but when Ben went to stab him he didn't fight back, and not because of what miles said "He was hoping you were wrong" but probably because the pressence of the MIB, the Smoke Monster was there, so maybe it's a agreement, that if his pressence is with the murderer, or soon to be one, they cannot talk them out of it.

Czechmate

03-30-2010, 06:34 PM

Yeh, I don't know either.

However, I thought a red herring was a true, honest to god deception by TPTB. Like l really believe the good -vs- Evil theme running through this season is an honest to god RED HERRING.

TCC -VS WHH... RED HERRING...they are both true in the show.

Whereas a lie/deception within the show is really a point of subjective "interpretation". Someone can look at that on its "face value" or look for a "hidden meaning". I'm saying on face value, what they said to Sayid and RA was deceptive; however, if you see the hidden meaning, there is value in those statements still.

A Red Herring has no value whatsoever?

ahh, I have been occasionally using it wrong then for sure. Thanks.

MagicoA

03-30-2010, 06:54 PM

beachblinkette

03-30-2010, 07:31 PM

I like Spider Pig's thinking about smokey's being a mirror image here. I wonder how much MIB and Jacob really know about each other. The way Flocke tried to run after the boy (jacob?) with the bloody hands, he looked very fearful to me.

And Jacob asked Richard what did he say to you--or something like that about MIB. It is as if they S&J can't be in the same room together with MIB in his real Smokey form. Does Jacob have another form as well? The white smoke? They seem not to know what the other guy is going to do next. MIB is seen as a human image as in when Locke led them into Jacob's foot lair. Have we ever seen smokey as the smoke monster and Jacob if he is another white smoke thing, together? How come?

I wonder if Dogen wanted to end his life because he took the knife out of the hiding place so gingerly almost with reverence and dedication. Or did he intend to finally push Sayid over the edge since he could not kill him with the pill. Time was running out and was sending Sayid to Flocke sending Sayid on a suicide mission? Did Dogen know that the knife he gave Sayid would come back to him to be used to kill him? The violence of the knife was something Sayid could get into because his heart was going dark. Remember Richard rejecting John as a child because he chose the knife?IMO

In Genesis Ch. 1 the first words spoken by God were "Let there be light. And GOD SAW that the light was good; and God separated the light FROM THE DARKNESS." It doesn't say that God saw that the darkness was good. Interesting. In Egyptian myths there were gods doing mythical, constant battle with the night, the darkness, all during the night, so that the sun would rise again in the morning.

When dogen told Sayid "don't let him speak to you", that statement assumes
Flocke or Smokey would have to SEE Sayid and Sayid would have to See Flocke before he could stab him. There is power that Smokey has and he can hypnotize his victims--like he did with Mr. Eko and the real John. Then, in human form, he uses rhetoric he knows will string them along and he is good at it. Smokey's powerful kind of smooth talking is why Sawyer the King of Con was picked by Jacob to come to the island.

Smokey took pictures of Richard and learned his guilt, fear and desires. Did Smokey ever check out Sawyer like that? Fatal error? Weak link? Remember Medusa, that if someone looked in her eyes he or she would turn to stone? Sawyer is the stony-faced, fake-out poker player. He is very good at not showing his tell!! And he can look someone in the eyes and lie like a champ. Juliet melted his heart of stone-- but for now he is back to doing the long con.

There are a lot of rambling thoughts here--just my opinion for what it's worth.:)

3d-aholic

03-30-2010, 08:41 PM

ahh, I have been occasionally using it wrong then for sure. Thanks.

Well I don't know....its just a made up definition. However, if everytime they tell us something that really later is just a deception, is a red herring. A good 75% of the show is a red herring. :p

Panda

03-31-2010, 05:47 AM

I have no Idea about what makes it possible that one can or can't kill Jacob.
But it seems that when Ben wasn't the first one who was encouraged to kill Jacob.
And it seems that Jacob once defended himself when someone approaches him to kill him.

What I found very interesting was that it was Richard...that told Jacob...that if he would not tell people what is right or what is wrong...that surely MIB would do it.
Jacob states that he doesn't want to do that in a direct manner as that would prove Jacob being wrong...that people can actually make up their own sets of morals of what could be right and what could be wrong.
So he suggests Richard to become some kind of "medium" to give people some guidance. But indeed from that moment the same strategy is followed by both opponents....they will always be both right as both wrong.

So he gives Richard some carte Blanche to talk people into the Jacob camp.
However...jacob never speaks directly to those people.....
And that is exactly what MIB needed....cause one day some guy would feel insulted for the fact that Jacob doesn't want to speak to him...as if he Jacob is superior and the rest of them are inferior....that feeling would exactly do more to make someone kill Jacob...than any promise made about bringen dearest people back....
The same "superior" and "inferior" feelings were exactly those who made Richard kill the doctor.

I don't say that Jacob feels superior...but his behavior not wanting to talk to people on the Island in a direct manner after installing Richard as the messenger...(some kind of prophet).....can make people feel inferior if they were already like wounded during their lives...just like Ben.
And I don't think that their is such a thing as the tabula rasa....

Jacob states that once on the Island their past doesn't count anymore.
If that were true...than MIB wouldn't be able to scan their thoughts and memories...
It is said that in the temple there is some kind of delete and shred all memory but I haven't seen the efficiency of it yet.

Ben remembers his youth....and many more things.
And Sayid is still talking about Nadia....

Anyway just rambling around again...