Jacob and MIB on the beach

[Czechmate]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCwpkZjQlLY&feature=PlayList&p=08787BFC930D2BB3&playnext_from=PL

I'm re-watching this.. then I rewatched it again and again and again.

0:46 MIB does not say "You brought them here", he says "We brought them here."

I know that this flies in the face of the ABC recap, Lostpedia, and general concensus.. but I just keep watching it and I keep seeing and hearing the same thing. Can some of you members take a look and tell me what you think?

I make no speculation as to what this means (there are theories on this site that cover it already), I'm just interested if I found something that the majority did not see, and simply glossed over because the recap states something contrary.

[JfromtheD]

This is cued up to that part of the dialog... :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCwpkZjQlLY#t=44s

I can't dismiss this, because his mouth looks like he says 'we.'
...but if you close your eyes it sounds like 'you.'

[Czechmate]

Not for me now that I've seen it, even with my eyes closed it sounds like "we".

[JfromtheD]

ok, so what does it look like?
(If you say "you" it will prove that I'm probably backwards/crazy.) :D

[Czechmate]

It looks like "we" to me. I thought that was obvious. :)

[Czechmate]

ah,, after some searching I find that I'm not the only one to hear this. There are actually quite a few people that believe that MIB says "we", at this point.

[losttime]

Well if that is really what he said than he is an idiot for asking Jacob in the first place how did "they find the Island" In the context of the discussion it would make zero sense for MIB to say "we brought them here". If he was involved with bringing them to the Island, why would he ask the question in the first place? Than after he says "we brought them here", he directs the conversation at jacob for still trying to prove him wrong about those that come to the Island?

Then we have the jacob's conversation to Alpert about that very thing. I dont recall Jacob saying to Alpert "We brought you here" But did mention that he brought them to the Island to try and settle the issue about the inherent nature of "mankind"

[Czechmate]

Yup.. and that's the only reason why I think that it's important, because it's out of context with the rest of the speech.

I can see it being "we" for a number of reasons other than it's what he looks and sounds like he is saying.. but I don't want to start thinking along those lines until I could confirm that enough other people could also see it that way.

I know what you're saying and I'll try to figure out how to elaborate on why I think that "we" can work there. That may take some time. I suppose the most obvious answer is, as others have speculated, Jacob and MIB are two parts of the same whole. If that were the case, the conversation can make a lot less sense to a second party looking in on the conversation. Now, I don't believe that they are two halves of the same entity so I'm still formulating my response as to exactly why someone might word things the way that they did. I'm sure I'll have something tonight at some point.

[LissaMarie]

I was just coming here to say the same thing, LT! Jacob claims sole responsibility for bringing them there. Here's part of the transcript from Ab Aeterno:


"RICHARD: Are you the Devil?

[Jacob pauses a moment and smiles.]

JACOB: No.

RICHARD: Then who are you?

JACOB: My name is Jacob. I'm the one who brought your ship to this island.

RICHARD: You brought it here? Why?

JACOB: [picks up the bottle of wine] Think of this wine as what you keep calling hell. There's many other names for it too: malevolence, evil, darkness. And here it is, swirling around in the bottle, unable to get out because if it did, it would spread. The cork [raises cork] is this island and it's the only thing keeping the darkness where it belongs. That man who sent you to kill me believes that everyone is corruptable because it's in their very nature to sin. I bring people here to prove him wrong. And when they get here, their past doesn't matter."

[Czechmate]

Not exactly Lisa. Jacob is speaking in the first person. MIB is speaking in the third person. Jacob may very well be telling Richard something in the first person because that's what Richard will understand. MIB does not have to use such a cover when discussing the happenings of the island with someone/thing that is already privy to the exact workings of the island. We know that Jacob does this with Richard because he refers to the darkness as "what you call Hell".

But, regardless of what Jacob says to Richard, please do listen and watch the clip and tell me honestly if you can't see him saying "We" at that point. I'm not making a claim at this point, as I've stated above, just trying to assertain how many other people can also see it as I see it. I'll leave it to smarter people than myself to figure out what it means if the concensus convinces them to look for an answer.

[LissaMarie]

Not exactly Lisa. Jacob is speaking in the first person. MIB is speaking in the third person. Jacob may very well be telling Richard something in the first person because that's what Richard will understand. MIB does not have to use such a cover when discussing the happenings of the island with someone/thing that is already privy to the exact workings of the island. We know that Jacob does this with Richard because he refers to the darkness as "what you call Hell".

But, regardless of what Jacob says to Richard, please do listen and watch the clip and tell me honestly if you can't see him saying "We" at that point. I'm not making a claim at this point, as I've stated above, just trying to assertain how many other people can also see it as I see it. I'll leave it to smarter people than myself to figure out what it means if the concensus convinces them to look for an answer.

I did rewatch it and I agree that it looks like he's saying "we" and kind of sounds like it could be "we" that he's saying too. That's why the conversation on the beach between Richard and Jacob struck me. It seems as if Jacob is taking full responsibility but maybe you're right about the context.

It would be interesting if MIB and Jacob actually had to agree on the candidates that were brought to the island though, wouldn't it? Kind of like how opposing counsel gets to select (by process of elimination) the members of a jury. I like the idea and think it would be a cool twist but I'm not sure if that wouldn't cheapen the story a little in my eyes. MIB seems to think that human nature states that we are corruptable, no matter what. I don't think a joint consensus on the candidates makes much sense given that cynical view of humanity.

[Unbridled Pageantry]

What if he said "me", and his grammar is just really bad.

[Czechmate]

I was thinking more along the lines of, their conflict, by it's nature inherantly brings people to the island.

but i like that thought as well.

so far, like I said, I'm just looking around at the idea and seeing what I can make of it. I am very glad that others see it too.

It may of course just be bad writing, but I tend to doubt it. A script error like that, on a season closure epi seems unlikely.

[Czechmate]

What if he said "me", and his grammar is just really bad.

"Me" is created with a closed mouth m sound, which looks very different than either soft y or w. Try making those three sounds and looking in the mirror at yourself.

[jlazarus]

Well if that is really what he said than he is an idiot for asking Jacob in the first place how did "they find the Island" In the context of the discussion it would make zero sense for MIB to say "we brought them here".

Then again, the whole convo doesn't make a lot sense. For example, he asks "how did they find the island" and then Jacob says "You'll have to ask them when they get here" - to which MIB replies "I don't have to ask" (well, why DID you then?? Just like hearing yourself talk? Lol!)

And the whole....MIB just casually walking up."Morning"..."Morning" thing - like they wake up with each other every day or something. And then Jacob's like "Hey, want some fish?"...Heck it sounds like family saying hey to each other in the morning - not two *enemies*....

[jlazarus]

What if he said "me", and his grammar is just really bad.

Ha! Lol! :)

[LissaMarie]

I was thinking more along the lines of, their conflict, by it's nature inherantly brings people to the island.

but i like that thought as well.

so far, like I said, I'm just looking around at the idea and seeing what I can make of it. I am very glad that others see it too.

It may of course just be bad writing, but I tend to doubt it. A script error like that, on a season closure epi seems unlikely.

Out of curiosity....what do you make of the lighthouse, Czech? Do you think the looking glass Jack saw his childhood home in was a tool Jacob used to select his candidates or do you see it another way? I'm fascinated and need to pick your brain! :D

[Unbridled Pageantry]

"Me" is created with a closed mouth m sound, which looks very different than either soft y or w. Try making those three sounds and looking in the mirror at yourself.

We know that Notorious MIB likes playing people for puppets right??
What if he's a huge Sherry Lewis fan and has trained to be just as good as her at not moving his lips?

Check this out and think of it in the context of Lost and cyclical timelines.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_47KVJV8DU
Checkmate.
:)

[3d-aholic]

JACOB: [picks up the bottle of wine] Think of this wine as what you keep calling hell. There's many other names for it too: malevolence, evil, darkness. And here it is, swirling around in the bottle, unable to get out because if it did, it would spread. The cork [raises cork] is this island and it's the only thing keeping the darkness where it belongs. That man who sent you to kill me believes that everyone is corruptable because it's in their very nature to sin. I bring people here to prove him wrong. And when they get here, their past doesn't matter."

This is great seeing the words in "print". The entire show is summed up in that single dialog by Jacob. Clue after clue after clue.

First part in yellow is the "con". It leads the audience to think its about evil, good -vs- bad, hell, heaven.

The next sentence in red, tells you the truth. That is really about "philosophy". People being corruptable, and their nature is to sin. This is "innate" sin...the rationalism view point. Jacobs view being the opposite, "acquired" sin from a "blank slate"...the empiricism view point.

Finally, the blue sentence tells you its a game. The entire purpose of Jacob is to prove the other guy wrong. To get "one-up" on him. To prove his viewpoint is better.

[LissaMarie]

Well, I agree with your take on their philosophy (although you know my thoughts about there being WAY more to the story) but I disagree that the "yellow" part is a con. I think he was using Richard's filter (his religious beliefs) in order to create a visual example of what is happening on the island.

MIB obviously wants to get off the island very badly and is willing to kill in order to do it. He is trapped there and Jacob seems passionate about keeping him trapped there, even after his replacement has been found. I don't think it's just because Jacob is really miffed at MIB....I think it's because he would be dangerous to humanity as a whole if he was able to leave the island. Having it just be some sort of silly pissing contest between Jacob and MIB is pretty lame, don't you think? I think humanity hanging in the balance raises the stakes to a more respectable level as far as the story goes.

[losttime]

Not exactly Lisa. Jacob is speaking in the first person. MIB is speaking in the third person. Jacob may very well be telling Richard something in the first person because that's what Richard will understand. MIB does not have to use such a cover when discussing the happenings of the island with someone/thing that is already privy to the exact workings of the island. We know that Jacob does this with Richard because he refers to the darkness as "what you call Hell".

But, regardless of what Jacob says to Richard, please do listen and watch the clip and tell me honestly if you can't see him saying "We" at that point. I'm not making a claim at this point, as I've stated above, just trying to assertain how many other people can also see it as I see it. I'll leave it to smarter people than myself to figure out what it means if the concensus convinces them to look for an answer.

If you read the trascripts for S5 finale MIB says "You" and not "We"

[Czechmate]

If you read the trascripts for S5 finale MIB says "You" and not "We"

Hence my first post where I say that this flies in the face of the transcripts, lostpedia and popular opinion.

We've proven that the transcripts are not correct. I can't remember where now, but about 3 to 4 weeks ago we had a conversation about it and the transcripts were absolutely inaccurate.

[Czechmate]

Out of curiosity....what do you make of the lighthouse, Czech? Do you think the looking glass Jack saw his childhood home in was a tool Jacob used to select his candidates or do you see it another way? I'm fascinated and need to pick your brain! :D

I hope that there are no spoilers out there for this. I certainly haven't read anything anywhere that sheds light on this subject, pun intented. :)

I'm not sure we're ever going to know Lisa. I think that this plot tool was used, and we wont get any more insight into it. I'm sure that any tool of that power would not be used for a singular purpose.
I kind of like the idea of Jacob sitting in the lighthouse using his tool. He focus' the mirrors on an angle in time and space, not knowing what he's looking for exactly. As he watches that angle, he uses some sort of impiracal reasoning and logic, over time and evidence to choose a name to place on that angle. He's looking so that he'll have a good guess in the future, as to who the island will bring to him. i.e. The lighthouse doesn't guide people to the island, but guides Jacob in his knowledge. It lights Jacob's way, so to speak.
This gives the lighthouse the feel of a tool for Jacob, rather than just a plot device that eventually will lead Jack to realize his own importance. If I look at it this way, it also opens up the idea that Jacob is not all knowing, which I dont' think that he is, but rather is just much better informed than most other entities.

[3d-aholic]

MIB obviously wants to get off the island very badly and is willing to kill in order to do it. He is trapped there and Jacob seems passionate about keeping him trapped there, even after his replacement has been found. I don't think it's just because Jacob is really miffed at MIB....I think it's because he would be dangerous to humanity as a whole if he was able to leave the island. Having it just be some sort of silly pissing contest between Jacob and MIB is pretty lame, don't you think? I think humanity hanging in the balance raises the stakes to a more respectable level as far as the story goes.

Well if you think so.
Of course, that part will never be explained so you certainly can think that.
He's "dangerous" to humanity from Jacobs perspective because he doesn't want to unleash that "kind of thinking"...ie his "philosophy" on the world.

Anyway, your going to have hard grounds to stand on if you think MiB is evil. Purely from the evidence put forth already... Its a much easier case to make out Jacob as the evil guy. Although because its not about good -vs- evil but empiricism -vs- rationalism, you will be able to make either case good or evil take your pick. A silly pissing contest of good -vs- evil is no different than a silly pissing contact of empiricism -vs- rationalism. Either one you could argue all of humanity hangs in the balance if you were not tolerant of the other persons view point. That once again is the hidden morale. We should be tolerant of another persons viewpoint and not always make it out to be the evil one and ours to be the good one. Those are all better morale stories than good -vs- evil, the world hangs in the balance....you can spend $3.00 at Block Busters and see that any day of the week.

[3d-aholic]

P.S. I can't believe you guys are arguring whether he said "YOU" or "WE".
:confused:

[locke_is_the_key]

ah,, after some searching I find that I'm not the only one to hear this. There are actually quite a few people that believe that MIB says "we", at this point.

No offense, but anyone who thinks he says "we" are looking for something that just isn't there. Sorry.

[Czechmate]

P.S. I can't believe you guys are arguring whether he said "YOU" or "WE".
:confused:

I didn't think that we were arguing at all. I was looking for a weigh in on what people thought. Yea or Nah, both are interesting.

[LissaMarie]

Well if you think so.
Of course, that part will never be explained so you certainly can think that.
He's "dangerous" to humanity from Jacobs perspective because he doesn't want to unleash that "kind of thinking"...ie his "philosophy" on the world.

Anyway, your going to have hard grounds to stand on if you think MiB is evil. Purely from the evidence put forth already... Its a much easier case to make out Jacob as the evil guy. Although because its not about good -vs- evil but empiricism -vs- rationalism, you will be able to make either case good or evil take your pick. A silly pissing contest of good -vs- evil is no different than a silly pissing contact of empiricism -vs- rationalism. Either one you could argue all of humanity hangs in the balance if you were not tolerant of the other persons view point. That once again is the hidden morale. We should be tolerant of another persons viewpoint and not always make it out to be the evil one and ours to be the good one. Those are all better morale stories than good -vs- evil, the world hangs in the balance....you can spend $3.00 at Block Busters and see that any day of the week.

The truth is I have no idea who is good or bad but I want to believe that it isn't as black and white as that. I'm going along for the ride at this point. :)

I respect your opinion about the philosophy angle but again, I think there has to be more to the story than that. I think Jacob's motive for keeping MIB trapped on the island has got to be based on more than just wanting to keep his beliefs trapped on the island. I am willing to be wrong about that but I just think it would be anti-climactic if it was solely based on a difference in philosophy. Either way it plays out, I've loved reading your theories and getting a refresher course in philosophy! You've inspired me to rediscover the fundamentals and I am thankful for that. I forgot what a passion of mine philosophy used to be so thank you, 3-D. :)

[JohnQ]

"You brought them here." Jacob is not what he seems.

[LissaMarie]

I hope that there are no spoilers out there for this. I certainly haven't read anything anywhere that sheds light on this subject, pun intented. :)

I'm not sure we're ever going to know Lisa. I think that this plot tool was used, and we wont get any more insight into it. I'm sure that any tool of that power would not be used for a singular purpose.
I kind of like the idea of Jacob sitting in the lighthouse using his tool. He focus' the mirrors on an angle in time and space, not knowing what he's looking for exactly. As he watches that angle, he uses some sort of impiracal reasoning and logic, over time and evidence to choose a name to place on that angle. He's looking so that he'll have a good guess in the future, as to who the island will bring to him. i.e. The lighthouse doesn't guide people to the island, but guides Jacob in his knowledge. It lights Jacob's way, so to speak.
This gives the lighthouse the feel of a tool for Jacob, rather than just a plot device that eventually will lead Jack to realize his own importance. If I look at it this way, it also opens up the idea that Jacob is not all knowing, which I dont' think that he is, but rather is just much better informed than most other entities.

Alright, alright....enough with the spoiler thing already! :p

My thoughts on the lighthouse was also that it was a tool used by Jacob in order to pick his candidates. I think the looking glass was a tool that he used in order to get a peek into their lives and their character and then he was able to assess if they were suitable as his replacement. I do not think that MIB had anything to do with that process, therefore I don't believe MIB had anything to do with bringing candidates to the island. Just my take on it. :)

[3d-aholic]

I am willing to be wrong about that but I just think it would be anti-climactic if it was solely based on a difference in philosophy.

The "conclusion" and "ending" of the story is not going to be that closed end. You will still be able to argue good -vs- bad, philosophy -vs- philosophy, or any number of different things from my perspective. I don't see it getting but a tiny bit clearer from this point. Heck we only have a few more shows as it is.

I don't even believe the sideways reality will be that clear. You are going to be able to argue the timelines merged. The timelines never merged.

All I see is forum topic after forum topic of people telling us they understand the story....all with equally valid defensible points. Complete pandemonium.

Anyway, I don't believe philosophy is that black and white....if it were, more people would understand the story. They've choose a subject that is as far away from black and white as you can get. Heck professors argue with themselves about what x philosopher thinks or means still to this day.

[myu]

All I see is forum topic after forum topic of people telling us they understand the story....all with equally valid defensible points. Complete pandemonium.
Really? I see a lot of speculations, theories, and proposals (and not necessarily all equally defensible--plenty have holes; even mine have). But I don't see very many people saying that they've got it "all figured out"... Except maybe you.

;)


What I do see is a lot of lofty suppositions based on very little evidence. And the chatter is cranking up to a higher pitch as more and more people come searching the Internet looking for answers as the series draws to a close (so many people have to know, can't be patient--that's why the spoiler topics are all buzzing around the Internet LOST forums). I'm still convinced that the story ending is not going to be very complex, due to the need for mass audience appeal (money talks; these guys want to be in demand for the next series).

[LissaMarie]

Anyway, I don't believe philosophy is that black and white....if it were, more people would understand the story.

I agree with everything you said about the story being left open ended. The above statement is what I have always disagreed with where your view of the show is concerned. I still believe that perspective of LOST is a view of the show through tunnel vision and there is way more at the core and on the surface if you stand back and look at the big picture. It is NOT just a show about philosophy, 3-D.

[Greg Dharma]

"You brought them here." Jacob is not what he seems.

i think jacob is exactly what he seems...an enigmatic, mysterious entity who brings people to the island. or were you thinking he's actually there to sell them time-shares?

[Czechmate]

That would explain a lot about how people are brought to the island. Time share salesmen are notoriously high pressure.

[LissaMarie]

Maybe that's what the cabin was for?! GREAT theory guys! Woohoo, we nailed it! :D

[Czechmate]

lol

hey Lissa, I just wanted it on record that I hadn't read anything about this anywhere, because it's kind of speculation. I'll shut the heck up about it from here on out. Sorry, I wasn't trying to be a pain or anything.

[LissaMarie]

lol

hey Lissa, I just wanted it on record that I hadn't read anything about this anywhere, because it's kind of speculation. I'll shut the heck up about it from here on out. Sorry, I wasn't trying to be a pain or anything.

Yes, your timeshare theory raised a few red flags but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt since you promised, Czech. :p ;)

[Czechmate]

Yes, your timeshare theory raised a few red flags but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt since you promised, Czech. :p ;)

roflmfao. that's nice, thanks

[3d-aholic]

I agree with everything you said about the story being left open ended. The above statement is what I have always disagreed with where your view of the show is concerned. I still believe that perspective of LOST is a view of the show through tunnel vision and there is way more at the core and on the surface if you stand back and look at the big picture. It is NOT just a show about philosophy, 3-D.
I think philosophy is the plot writing device. I don't think it will surface as the grand moral of the show.... I think we agree on that.

Take Survivor for example. The shows "plot writing device" is greed for money. However, thats not really the grand moral of the show is it...people are greedy pigs....its much more than that. We don't really watch it to see who's going to win the money really. Honestly, we could care less beyond rooting for one side or the other. We watch it to see "HOW" and "WHAT" they do to get the money.

[Czechmate]

too true 3d

[LissaMarie]

I think philosophy is the plot writing device. I don't think it will surface as the grand moral of the show.... I think we agree on that.



Heehee...I hope you find this as amusing as I do but I see it exactly the opposite! LOL!

I think the grand moral of the show will be that we, as humans, are capable of really horrible things (MIB's cynical beach speech) or making a different choice (Jacob's stance). After last night's episode I think the cure to the disease of that flawed human condition is love. Love is the answer. :)
(Do I sound like a complete hippie?) :p


Fast forward to 2:05. This song describes it perfectly!! J'adore David Wilcox. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za5AH7qVlqE

[Czechmate]

Not a bad answer lissa and one that can be sold to the American public, even if it's a bit trite.

[headscratch]

i believe he said you. i think what is going on is that jacob knows for a fact that there was a scenario in which he is killed in hte future, the balance of the universe is destroyed and mib unleashes the ultimate chaos which results in destruction of the cosmos and man. he brings people to the island so that someone who comes will be able to take over his post in what he knows to be his ultimate demise. taking this in context of the valenzetti equation, mib beleives taht it is the inherent evil of man that does him in while jacob beleives that man can sustain himself. jacob is trying to to undue man's evil b giving them a choice to take a different route and redeem not just one's own self but the very survival of the human species. but then again i have been proven wrong many times...lol.

i also found it interesting that farraday seemed to think he made a mistake with the bomb. i just got that feeling. i think maybe the bomb is the ultimate problem. it is also interesting that setting off the bomb seemed a selfish act on part of the losties to just get out of the situation they were in and go back as if nothing happened. i think that is somehow going to come to play a part later on especially since the losties were slit into the alt reality and wer still on the island. as a result of the acts on island, they remained on island to fix something they did. nonetheless i dn't think that is the end of it as the wheels that set all of this in motion started long before hte crash.

[LissaMarie]

Not a bad answer lissa and one that can be sold to the American public, even if it's a bit trite.

I respect your opinion but I don't think it's trite at all. It really is the driving factor in almost all of the choices that we make. LOVE.

As I said in the "Love is the Key" thread, I think it will come down to Desmond having to sacrifice himself for the love of Penny and his son. What other emotion or reason would be a big enough motivator for him to make a choice like that other than love?

[Czechmate]

k k, don't get huffy :D. I'm just a person who thinks that Love as a driving factor for fiction is trite. I'll be happy with it regardless. And as I said, TPTB must use an engine that the American public will swallow. Love is a good one for that.

[LissaMarie]

I'm not huffy, silly boy! I'm a lover, not a fighter. :D

[Czechmate]

I'm forty. I huff when I make love.

but that's not important right now.

[3d-aholic]

I think the grand moral of the show will be that we, as humans, are capable of really horrible things (MIB's cynical beach speech) or making a different choice (Jacob's stance).
Ok, we'll see.

I don't think it will be that obvious.
Also I don't think you will walk away from this show without a debate that Jacob was the good guy and MiB was the bad guy. I think they started with that impression going into the season but I think by the end of the season...we're going to have trouble identifying the good guy from the bad guy.

If the morale is love, its love thy neighbor even if they completely disagree with you (they have the opposite philosophy). Thats not the same as romantic love. However, I could see that as morale...thats in direct opposition to the current good -vs- bad, black -vs- white thread running through the current scene.

[LissaMarie]

I'm forty. I huff when I make love.

but that's not important right now.

NOOOOO!!! Say it ain't so!! :eek:

I'll be passing that milestone in a month. I'll add that to the list of fun things to look forward to. :(

Ok, we'll see.

I don't think it will be that obvious.
Also I don't think you will walk away from this show without a debate that Jacob was the good guy and MiB was the bad guy. I think they started with that impression going into the season but I think by the end of the season...we're going to have trouble identifying the good guy from the bad guy.

If the morale is love, its love thy neighbor even if they completely disagree with you (they have the opposite philosophy). Thats not the same as romantic love. However, I could see that as morale...thats in direct opposition to the current good -vs- bad, black -vs- white thread running through the current scene.

I don't think the MIB / Jacob being good or evil thing will be resolved either. I think there will be a lot left to debate, if you choose to do that. :)

Last night changed my view on the moral of the story. Widmore told Desmond that he needed to see if Desmond could truly withstand a huge amount of EM and if he could, he would then need Desmond to make a sacrifice for the love of Penny and little Charlie (paraphrasing). I think they will lead him to the well and the FDW and Desmond will somehow sink the island, sacrificing himself.

My belief is that LOVE nullifies or trumps MIB's philosophy and is the ultimate reason for making a better choice. LOVE calls you to a higher purpose. I believe that Desmond is going to make the ultimate sacrifice for no other reason than love. Desmond still has the key that will put an end to it all and LOVE is the key.

[3d-aholic]

LOVE calls you to a higher purpose.

You are an idealist and an internal optimist! ;)
Ok...Romantic Love has never served me so what do I know...
Love is light. I'm not sure I'm convinced yet that MiB is evil or darkness though.

[Czechmate]

NOOOOO!!! Say it ain't so!! :eek:

I'll be passing that milestone in a month. I'll add that to the list of fun things to look forward to. :(
probably has more to do with cigarettes, cheesecake, and pizza than my age to tell the truth. (don't judge, been trying to quit the death sticks for years.. I'm WEAK!!!)

I don't think the MIB / Jacob being good or evil thing will be resolved either. I think there will be a lot left to debate, if you choose to do that. :)

Last night changed my view on the moral of the story. Widmore told Desmond that he needed to see if Desmond could truly withstand a huge amount of EM and if he could, he would then need Desmond to make a sacrifice for the love of Penny and little Charlie (paraphrasing). I think they will lead him to the well and the FDW and Desmond will somehow sink the island, sacrificing himself.

My belief is that LOVE nullifies or trumps MIB's philosophy and is the ultimate reason for making a better choice. LOVE calls you to a higher purpose. I believe that Desmond is going to make the ultimate sacrifice for no other reason than love. Desmond still has the key that will put an end to it all and LOVE is the key.

I'm really down with this the more I look at it. I would suggest that it is not just any single type of love. Love thy neighbor works, so does love thy brother(eko),daughter(ben). There are a whole bunch of these to look at over the years. I would recomend that anyone who is going to watch the whole thing from beginning to end, keep "Love" in mind while looking at scenes of redemption, and scenes in which MIB attempts manipulation.

We have discussed this in other threads with racheleskid. The internal chemical reaction to intense love overrules all other drives or desires, which are what MIB uses to manipulate people.

I would even hazzard to guess that Jacob loves MIB. So much so that MIB cannot affect him in any way, and it may be that the "rules" trace back to this Love/Hate duality.

Good vs Evil? no, Hate vs Love.

[LissaMarie]

I'm really down with this the more I look at it. I would suggest that it is not just any single type of love. Love thy neighbor works, so does love thy brother(eko),daughter(ben). There are a whole bunch of these to look at over the years. I would recomend that anyone who is going to watch the whole thing from beginning to end, keep "Love" in mind while looking at scenes of redemption, and scenes in which MIB attempts manipulation.

We have discussed this in other threads with racheleskid. The internal chemical reaction to intense love overrules all other drives or desires, which are what MIB uses to manipulate people.

I would even hazzard to guess that Jacob loves MIB. So much so that MIB cannot affect him in any way, and it may be that the "rules" trace back to this Love/Hate duality.

Good vs Evil? no, Hate vs Love.

Yes, yes and yes!! I do happen to think that hate is born from love and love is the absolute foundational emotion. A baby is first bonded to it's mother (and vice versa) out of instinctual love. Hate is born from love in every situation. The love I'm speaking of is not just romantic love. It's about every form of love.....especially love for your fellow man. I can't wait to watch it over again with love in mind either!! :)

Yes, I'm an optimistic, idealistic mushbag. :o

[1stonMarrs]

I with that but it also seems to be (possibly) that they are related in some way. Just a thought.

[LissaMarie]

I with that but it also seems to be (possibly) that they are related in some way. Just a thought.

What do you mean by that, Mars? More info please..... :)

[Greg Dharma]

You are an idealist and an internal optimist! ;)
Ok...Romantic Love has never served me so what do I know...
Love is light. I'm not sure I'm convinced yet that MiB is evil or darkness though.

love is heavy, man.

[Czechmate]

Lissa, I talked with a friend of mine last night. He and his wife came up with the same theory before talking with me. They suggest "Love vs Fear" though over love vs hate.

I have yet to talk with them in person, but the general jist of their theory is that the island timeline is one in which our Losties are living in relation to their fears, and the FS is one in which they are living in relation to their love. If I can get a better explination out of them as to what they mean by that, I'll post it.

[losttime]

Then again, the whole convo doesn't make a lot sense. For example, he asks "how did they find the island" and then Jacob says "You'll have to ask them when they get here" - to which MIB replies "I don't have to ask" (well, why DID you then?? Just like hearing yourself talk? Lol!)

And the whole....MIB just casually walking up."Morning"..."Morning" thing - like they wake up with each other every day or something. And then Jacob's like "Hey, want some fish?"...Heck it sounds like family saying hey to each other in the morning - not two *enemies*....

If you look at the conversation and not just what is said but how it is said I saw jacob as being sarcastic with his response knowing full well MIB knew who brought them to the Island.

If we are to believe that the conversation they had on the beach was when they saw the BR coming to the Island, then we know that MIB has not tried to have Jacob killed up until that point. Jacob seemed very surprised o see Alpert there attempting to kill him. To me in the context of the discussion and what we learned in Ab Aeterno, i dont think it was such a bizarre conversation.

Even after knowing that MIB made an actual attempt to have jacob killed, via Alpert, Jacob still sat down with him and had a, for lack of a Better term, civil conversation in that they werent yelling or anything like that. MIB did say he will kill him and anyone who was to replace him so he can leave but it was extremely civil considering what was at stake.

So honestly I dont think MIB said "We borught them here" because that would put MIB at fault just as much as jacob for bringing them to the Island and responsible for the results. And within the context of the rest of the discussion it does not at all indicate that he is involved with the bringing of anyone to the Island.

Jacob brings them there to try and prove that humanity is not as MIB describes it and MIB does everything in his power to prove his point. Whole purpose of appointing Alpert as his spokeperson to counteract MIB's attempt to influence them as we saw.in Ab Aeterno

Just how I see it

[LissaMarie]

Lissa, I talked with a friend of mine last night. He and his wife came up with the same theory before talking with me. They suggest "Love vs Fear" though over love vs hate.

I have yet to talk with them in person, but the general jist of their theory is that the island timeline is one in which our Losties are living in relation to their fears, and the FS is one in which they are living in relation to their love. If I can get a better explination out of them as to what they mean by that, I'll post it.

I would love to read that, Czech, thanks! I'm hard pressed to see fear as a bigger motivator than hate but maybe I'm just not looking hard enough! I think the thought of the two timelines deliniating between the two but I have a hard time seeing that as well. I'd be very interested in getting a chance to explore the idea so I look forward to reading. :)

[Czechmate]

I would love to read that, Czech, thanks! I'm hard pressed to see fear as a bigger motivator than hate but maybe I'm just not looking hard enough! I think the thought of the two timelines deliniating between the two but I have a hard time seeing that as well. I'd be very interested in getting a chance to explore the idea so I look forward to reading. :)

I think maybe the point there was just that fear is the motivator of all hate. I'm not saying it's my theory, so I'll withold judgement for now.