scientists claimf free will does not exist?! [Archive]

notsolost42

04-12-2010, 12:40 PM

I don't trust anyone who uses the word "tinkles."

Grandma wasn't a man, trying to convince me of something that goes against a fundamental belief, of life.

You said anyone. :o:rolleyes:;)

notsolost42

04-12-2010, 01:10 PM

http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=scientists-say-free-will-probably-d-2010-04-06

:eek:

discuss.

Okay, long article, read some, skimmed some, but interesting. I found this passage to be the most fascinating to me personally.

"One of the most striking findings to emerge recently in the science of free will is that when people believe—or are led to believe—that free will is just an illusion, they tend to become more antisocial."

Without getting into politics, I can explain no further....;)

JfromtheD

04-12-2010, 01:17 PM

I like how she brought the topic up... and then proceeded to leave without voicing her opinion. :rolleyes: :D

notsolost42

04-12-2010, 01:19 PM

I'm sure she'll be back to play :D

rachelskid

04-12-2010, 01:23 PM

Okay, long article, read some, skimmed some, but interesting. I found this passage to be the most fascinating to me personally.

"One of the most striking findings to emerge recently in the science of free will is that when people believe—or are led to believe—that free will is just an illusion, they tend to become more antisocial."

Without getting into politics, I can explain no further....;)

what's wrong with politics? this strikes me as a political, religious, philosophical and scientific discussion.

I like how she brought the topic up... and then proceeded to leave without voicing her opinion. :rolleyes: :D

i told you, i had to go tinkle.

notsolost42

04-12-2010, 01:27 PM

what's wrong with politics? this strikes me as a political, religious, philosophical and scientific discussion.
Because what I would have to say about it will be correctly interpreted as something not very nice by some. I am not looking to wage war. ;)
Suffice to say, I am equating antisocial to sheep blindly following.

rachelskid

04-12-2010, 01:29 PM

Because what I would have to say about it will be correctly interpreted as something not very nice by some. I am not looking to wage war. ;)
Suffice to say, I am equating antisocial to sheep blindly following.

correctly interpreted or incorrectly?

notsolost42

04-12-2010, 01:30 PM

correctly interpreted or incorrectly?

Correctly interpreted as not nice, yes.

chester

04-12-2010, 04:10 PM

Free will does exist, just not like ego expects it should. The one wiser and greater than all bhuddas is....your real self: ie 'the robot'. ;)

wiley

04-12-2010, 05:28 PM

If free will doesn't exist, then I want to talk to the guy who has been making decisions on my behalf. He really screwed up a few times.

rachelskid

04-12-2010, 07:20 PM

Free will does exist, just not like ego expects it should. The one wiser and greater than all bhuddas is....your real self: ie 'the robot'. ;)

i think you assume we know what you are saying. i do not. :D please explain. about the ego i mean...

rachelskid

04-12-2010, 07:21 PM

If free will doesn't exist, then I want to talk to the guy who has been making decisions on my behalf. He really screwed up a few times.

he is still you.

mcgarnigle

04-12-2010, 08:44 PM

go noles!!!!!

chester

04-12-2010, 08:50 PM

i think you assume we know what you are saying. i do not. :D please explain. about the ego i mean...

Well I guess it goes back to the logogram/biogram thing. The ego, or conscious awareness, is the logogram. The robot is the biogram.

notsolost42

04-12-2010, 08:55 PM

Well I guess it goes back to the logogram/biogram thing. The ego, or conscious awareness, is the logogram. The robot is the biogram.

At first, I thought you were referencing Asimov, then I realized that was quite silly and I was mistaken. It dawned on me that you meant the id.

rachelskid

04-12-2010, 09:04 PM

Well I guess it goes back to the logogram/biogram thing. The ego, or conscious awareness, is the logogram. The robot is the biogram.

ok, but are you saying we need to believe there is free will or that there is free will?

chester

04-12-2010, 09:36 PM

ok, but are you saying we need to believe there is free will or that there is free will?

That there is free will, it just belongs to the robot. The robot just tricks us into thinking that 'we' are in control.

Check out Dan Dennett's Freedom Evolves....

rachelskid

04-12-2010, 10:11 PM

That there is free will, it just belongs to the robot. The robot just tricks us into thinking that 'we' are in control.

Check out Dan Dennett's Freedom Evolves....

"Dennett's stance on free will is compatibilism with an evolutionary twist – the view that, although in the strict physical sense our actions are pre-determined, we can still be free in all the ways that matter, because of the abilities we evolved. Free will, seen this way, is about freedom to make decisions without duress, as opposed to an impossible and unnecessary freedom from causality itself. To clarify this distinction, he coins the term 'evitability' as the opposite of 'inevitability', defining it as the ability of an agent to anticipate likely consequences and act to avoid undesirable ones. Evitability is entirely compatible with, and actually requires, human action being deterministic."

this does not sounds like your views of Lost, these sound like mine! :)

3d-aholic

04-12-2010, 11:06 PM

Scientists, free will...a very old ongoing debate.

chester

04-12-2010, 11:55 PM

"Dennett's stance on free will is compatibilism with an evolutionary twist – the view that, although in the strict physical sense our actions are pre-determined, we can still be free in all the ways that matter, because of the abilities we evolved. Free will, seen this way, is about freedom to make decisions without duress, as opposed to an impossible and unnecessary freedom from causality itself. To clarify this distinction, he coins the term 'evitability' as the opposite of 'inevitability', defining it as the ability of an agent to anticipate likely consequences and act to avoid undesirable ones. Evitability is entirely compatible with, and actually requires, human action being deterministic."

this does not sounds like your views of Lost, these sound like mine! :)

Ours are the same, its only the labels we each apply that are different ;)

Jelena

04-13-2010, 04:13 AM

First off, I'm stunned at how Hitler looked like a pretentious little **** even as a kid.

Second, thanks skidzy, not just for finding scientific confirmation for WHH, but for providing my loophole for whenever I start feeling guilty about something I said or did. From now on, I will retort to this article every time I start wishing I could change the past. As a matter of fact, I will also use it to liberate myself from the very burdening belief that I can influence the future: ie. if I eat right, exercise, go to doctor, etc, I won't get sick. :)

Good find skidzy.

P.S. Love the word "tinkle". I have a few usernames I switch around, depending on the type of site I joine, and one of them is Tinkler. :)

ortrules

04-13-2010, 08:57 AM

First off, I'm stunned at how Hitler looked like a pretentious little **** even as a kid.

Have you ever seen the movie "Max" with John Cusack?

Here's a synopsis from IMDB:

A Jewish art dealer (Max, played by Cusack), who lost an arm during World War I befriends a young art student named Adolf Hitler, encouraging his artistic aspirations. However, the bitter and penniless Hitler is torn between his artistic desires and the increasing influence politics begins to play in his life.

Totally off topic, I just thought of it. It was a pretty good film.

ortrules

04-13-2010, 08:59 AM

Free will exists. Fate and destiny is a ridiculous idea.

3d-aholic

04-13-2010, 09:38 AM

Free will exists. Fate and destiny is a ridiculous idea.

Hardly...
Mans fate is to destroy the world through a nuclear global conflict/war.
We all have free will and yet most of the people that are being honest with themselves know its inevitable to occur and looking at current politics and nuclear stalemates it looks like we are close.

I think the problem is that most people don't have a way to set free will along side fate/destiny. They think its mutual exclusive... It can be done. As an INTJ, its one of our strengths.

ortrules

04-13-2010, 09:41 AM

Mans fate is to destroy the world through a nuclear global conflict/war.
We all have free will and yet most of the people that are being honest with themselves know its inevitable to occur and looking at current politics and nuclear stalemates it looks like we are close.

That's not true at all. We could also choose to destroy each other with biochemical weapons.

3d-aholic

04-13-2010, 09:45 AM

That's not true at all. We could also choose to destroy each other with biochemical weapons.

lol.
Ok sorry...let me rephrase so I can remove your belief you have free-will for all of mankind.

Some of "us" will use both(all) methods (not just nuclear) in the next war.

ortrules

04-13-2010, 09:56 AM

lol.
Ok sorry...let me rephrase so I can remove your belief you have free-will for all of mankind.

Some of "us" will use both(all) methods (not just nuclear) in the next war.

What about the Swiss? Will they continue to be neutral, or will their destiny be fulfilled and force them to finally choose a side?

3d-aholic

04-13-2010, 10:00 AM

Imagination and Free will (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaou3aqd0Q0) are the enemies of fate.

3d-aholic

04-13-2010, 10:01 AM

What about the Swiss? Will they continue to be neutral, or will their destiny be fulfilled and force them to finally choose a side?
The next war will go into Europe again. Decide or be conquered.

ortrules

04-13-2010, 10:06 AM

The next war will go into Europe again. Decide or be conquered.

So you're saying they have a choice?

3d-aholic

04-13-2010, 10:38 AM

So you're saying they have a choice?

Yes the same Fate choice Smokie gave people at the temple. You still have a choice when your staring down a barrel.

stream

04-13-2010, 10:45 AM

I don't trust anyone who uses the word "tinkles."

tinkle tinkle tinkle

However...
I did like the idea of giving Hitlers parents a little "care package" of historical documents, regarding their son's future actions. :D

that would not work, just be like Sayid n shoot him, stupid girls, oh well (sorry Ben lovers, he was a bad guy at first)

You said anyone. :o:rolleyes:;)

apparantly only meaning MEN so we wont pay any more attention to him, as we are not important FeY3

stream

04-13-2010, 10:47 AM

I like how she brought the topic up... and then proceeded to leave without voicing her opinion. :rolleyes: :D
it is a woman's progative
Because what I would have to say about it will be correctly interpreted as something not very nice by some. I am not looking to wage war. ;)
Suffice to say, I am equating antisocial to sheep blindly following.
huh???
Free will does exist, just not like ego expects it should. The one wiser and greater than all bhuddas is....your real self: ie 'the robot'. ;)
huh???
If free will doesn't exist, then I want to talk to the guy who has been making decisions on my behalf. He really screwed up a few times.
you are not kiddin, me too

stream

04-13-2010, 10:51 AM

Scientists, free will...a very old ongoing debate.

you are right Ort, now back to the damn taxes, thank you, now I can let the rest of you run with that one
waste of brain anyhow, if we can't tell - then it doesn't matter

Jelena

04-13-2010, 01:57 PM

Have you ever seen the movie "Max" with John Cusack?

Here's a synopsis from IMDB:

A Jewish art dealer (Max, played by Cusack), who lost an arm during World War I befriends a young art student named Adolf Hitler, encouraging his artistic aspirations. However, the bitter and penniless Hitler is torn between his artistic desires and the increasing influence politics begins to play in his life.

Totally off topic, I just thought of it. It was a pretty good film.

Well, I haven't seen that particular film, but I saw the one with Robert Carlyle, Hitler The Rise of Evil.

Pretty much the same thing.