Were future events altered?

[islander]

Des boards the helicopter in hopes of contacting penny.

While flying through the thunderstorm, he loses his present memory and begins a dual consciousness between the present 2004 and 1996. Initially both his 2004 and 1996 consciousness are confused by the displacements. Mentally he, and apparently nobody else, can comprehend the experience, and it appears his mind will short circuit as it is appears not to be able to exist in 2004 and 1996 concurrently. Through conversations with Dan he educated both his 1996 and 2004 consciousness regarding what he is experiencing such that both consciousness knew he would die if he didn't contact Penny in 1996 and 2004. He sets a date and a time to contact Penny (it's debatable whether she was expecting his call), but he does contact her, and his memory (his present day consciousness) is restored...see line one above.

Des did what he set out to do, but his displacements occured because he left the island via the thunderstorm. He had to alter his past to to cure his present day sickness, so if anything one could argue leaving the island severely altered his 'present consiousness' and he had to go back to 1996 to counteract the effect of leaving the island and restore his present consciousness.

Some will say Des should have died like Minkowski and therefore, he altered his future, but we don't know anything about a different set of outcomes for Des other than what occured, which was Des' one and only future.

[papatini]

So what about the fact that Des only traveled back and forth mentally, but in the show with Darmah with the rabbit the rabbit, was physically traveling in time.

[Robo42]

Islander, I agree that Des has altered his past, present, and future by leaving the island. Just the fact that he changed his plans and went to see dan at Oxford is changing the past, which in turn must alter his future. I don't understand how some say the writers state they are not changing the future.

[az-phil]

I'm following that he altered his past, but I'm not sure how they show impacts to the present or future in the format of a tv show.

We don't know his future (as Islander indicated), at least I don't recall any flash forwards that showed us what Desmond's future should be.

And the present is fluid. Again it's hard to understand if things were meant to happen differently.

My difficulty is with altering the past. The moment he told 1996 Des about 2004 occurences, he should have been aware of this information from 1996 on. So the Des we have seen from day one should have been aware of all this information. That's why I'm not digging this mental time travel thing. It just doesn't seem to work, or at least it should cause major disruption to the story line as we know it. Messy....

[islander]

So what about the fact that Des only traveled back and forth mentally, but in the show with Darmah with the rabbit the rabbit, was physically traveling in time.

i'm not sure what was going on with the rabbits or the polar bears. i'm just trying to figure out if Des' future was altered. there are good arguments supporting both sides.

[Snape]

I think the loss-of-memory issues are used as a plot device to explain away some of the complications of the mental time travel.

If they had perfect memories then sure, they should remember "altering the past", or meeting someone that they "shouldn't" have met, etc.

I think the only way the writers could salvage continuity is to introduce the memory issues.

And I'm fine with that.

[King_Nate]

Just a thought, maybe he DIDNT change the future at all, maybe its supposed 2 happen like this.......maybe des and daniel meet in 99 regardless of the future, only im wondering about is the fact that them showing des startin out in the royal scouts.......but in times past all we had seen is that he was locked up and discharged from it, so he obviously goes back, was that the cause of him getting discharged?

[Snape]

Do we know when in the timeline Desmond meets that lady in the jewelry story who tells him about the universe "course-correcting"?

I just wonder if it was before 1996 or between 1996 and 2004. If it was after 1996, that creates problems for "between '96 and '04" Desmond because he already would have been deeply vested in the time-travel phenomenon.

Unless he exhibits memory issues following the 1996 events with Faraday in which it is resolved because he can't remember it.

[islander]

Islander, I agree that Des has altered his past, present, and future by leaving the island. Just the fact that he changed his plans and went to see dan at Oxford is changing the past, which in turn must alter his future. I don't understand how some say the writers state they are not changing the future.

i'm trying to get at the "which in turn must alter his future" part of your statement robo. suppose his fate/future was to fly to the freighter to call penny? we don't know that his fate was anything different so we don't know that his future was changed.

if futures can be changed then we can't rely on the fastforwards to be factual.

[islander]

Do we know when in the timeline Desmond meets that lady in the jewelry story who tells him about the universe "course-correcting"?

I just wonder if it was before 1996 or between 1996 and 2004. If it was after 1996, that creates problems for "between '96 and '04" Desmond because he already would have been deeply vested in the time-travel phenomenon.

Unless he exhibits memory issues following the 1996 events with Faraday in which it is resolved because he can't remember it.

good question. since des's displacement took him to his time in the army, i believe the part of 1996 he returned to was after he met the woman in the jewlery store and after he broke it off with penny.

[Snape]

i'm trying to get at the "which in turn must alter his future" part of your statement robo. suppose his fate/future was to fly to the freighter to call penny? we don't know that his fate was anything different so we don't know that his future was changed.

if futures can be changed then we can't rely on the fastforwards to be factual.

I don't think the writers would ever mess with us like that. I think all of the flash-forwards are actual fact (even though in the mythology of the show they haven't "happened" yet).

At least, I don't think the writers would do that to us without at least telling us first that it was possible.

[ortrules]

Yes, what the writer's actually said was that they wouldn't do paradox like events like Back to the Future (Biff of the past gets a hold of the Sports Almanac and the future has now changed to Biff owning the city, etc) and that the flash forwards were indeed set in stone and nothing could change them.

[Quick Draw]

Yeah, the previous time travel episode took place pre 96. In the most recent episode Des calls Penny and says he needs help. Penny replies that Des broke up with her and ran off to the military.

Who knows why Des was discharged? Maybe it was because in 96 he started acting nutty and jumped a train to meet up with Dan, quite possible he didn't have approved leave for that trip.

[addictedtopainmeds]

did anyone think that maybe 1996 is the year it really is in the world desmond returned to? if the island is indeed in the future, anyone from any time period could arrive...

[Ureval]

I wrote this in a different post. Its important for us to understand what a paradox is. Going into the past and changing it does not create a paradox. A paradox would be created if the person traveling to the past did something like kill himself or his father thusly never being able to travel to the past in the first place and commit the murder. According to Doc Brown this would unravel the space-time continuum and destroy the universe. :)

These are the kinds of things the creators want to avoid.

That being said time travel stories have been handled in different ways, and I believe that the writers are using the same concepts used in 12 Monkeys, that all things are already set in place and time travel would not change anything, a common theme on Lost. If you havent seen it at the beginning of 12 Monkeys a little boy sees a man and woman die in an airport terminal, only later to realize that that man was himself who had traveled back in time.

I agree with Snape. Everything we saw in the Constant has already happened, but having people forget their experiences in the past is an easy way of avoiding plot issues. If Desmond traveled back when he first went back in time the question then is, did he recall his trips into the past as a younger man, or were his trips only remembered by his older self? Its the same issue in this episode and my belief is that time travel interrupts the mind, allowing only the future self to recall the incidents. Desmonds experience in the Constant was different then his previous time exploits because of the "side effects" caused by the storm.

[Ureval]

Quick draw I thought the same thing.