Why Doesn't Desmond Remember The Future?

[Rain13]

Ok, this is going to be extremely confusing and it took a while for me to even figure out what the hell I'm trying to say, but this essentially embodies the problem that I've been having with this whole "time travel" deal and I think there's something to this. Let me first start by defining "consciousness" so we're all on the same page:

"Consciousness" - the workings of your mind, it's essentially "you" and if you believe in the soul, this is what I'm talking about

Ok, here I go. We know that when Desmond's consciousness began traveling between his body from 1996 and his body from 2004, his body in 2004 was unconscious when his mind was in his body from 1996, and vice versa. He would fall on the ground and pass out until his "consciousness" returned to his body. This is evident when he's constantly passing out on the freighter when his consciousness is in Daniel's office or at boot camp, and when he passes out in Daniel's office when his consciousness is on the freighter. Also, we know that when Desmond's consciousness first traveled back into the past when the hatch blew, his body was lying unconscious, (and naked but that's another story), in the woods until his consciousness returned. When I've thought about this in the past I always had the following question: If Desmond's consciousness from the present time is traveling into his body in the past, what is happening to his consciousness from the past? The answer that I've come up with is that it's not that his consciousness is hopping back and forth between his 1996 body and his 2004 body, but instead, that his two separate consciousnesses (one from 1996 and one from 2004) have swapped places and simply can't both be active at the same time.

In other words, when Daniel asked Desmond on the freighter what year it was, Desmond said it was 1996 because the consciousness that was in his head at the time was his consciousness from the year 1996. This is why he had no idea what was going on or who was around him, because in his mind he had just been sleeping at Boot Camp. As expected, the consciousness that was in the head of Desmond’s 1996 body as he went to meet Daniel Faraday was aware of what had happened to him in the future since it was his 2004 consciousness in his 1996 body. He knows about the island and who Sayid is, and if you're not convinced of this, think back again to when he first time traveled after the hatch explosion. He was fully aware that he would end up on the island even though he was "back in time" before it had happened. This is why he decided to buy Penny’s ring, because he had seen that not doing so would lead him to the island in his future. Now, his two consciousnesses apparently can't be active at the same time, and that's why Desmond seems to be jumping back and forth and it appears that we're seeing only one consciousness traveling between two bodies, but instead we’re just seeing his two consciousnesses being activated one after the other. It's important to make the distinction that this is not the case and you’ll see why later.

If you're not with me so far, this is basically what I’m trying to say: We're not seeing a single consciousness jump back and forth between two bodies when Desmond "time travels". Instead, we're seeing Desmond's consciousness from 1996 in his 2004 body, and his consciousness from 2004 in his 1996 body. Neither of these two consciousnesses can be active at the same time, and thus when one becomes active in one body, the other consciousness becomes inactive in his other body and he therefore appears to only have one consciousness which is "time traveling" back and forth between bodies.

Now, it does, however, seem as though each consciousness is aware of what the other consciousness is doing, but only of what it has been doing since the time travel started and not anything from before that time. As is expected, his 1996 consciousness in his 2004 body doesn't know where he is or who Sayid is. This is the reason that Desmond suddenly forgets where he is. On the contrary, his 2004 consciousness is in his 1996 body and it does know where it is and what is going on. This is because while his 1996 consciousness hadn't been to the island yet and doesn't know anything about it, his 2004 consciousness had already experienced boot camp in the past and remembers it. This would prove Ortrules's idea that he expressed in another thread that the reason Minkowski knows where he is and what is going on while he’s time travelling is because the consciousness that is in his head at that time is from the future and remembers it all from its past. Now, since there does appear to be some level of connection between the consciousnesses during "time travel", Desmond's 1996 consciousness (in his 2004 body) remembers Penny's number that was given to his 2004 consciousness (in his 1996 body) but is still not able to access any other information that his 2004 consciousness has (such as who the hell Sayid is) because it was acquired before "time travel" started. So it appears that the island is entering Desmond into a state where his present consciousness is swapped with his consciousness from a point in the past and where a certain level of communication between the two consciousnesses is possible. Each consciousness is able to relay the information that it is processing during this state to the other consciousness when it becomes activated, but that doesn't change the fact that his consciousness from 1996 (in his 2004 body) won't know who Sayid is or why he's on helicopter because these bits of knowledge were acquired before the time travel rift opened..

So, we know that once Desmond stops "time traveling" and his consciousness that was previously in the past returns to his present-time body, he is aware of what has just happened. This is evident when he is showed to remember his experience after waking up and emerging from the woods naked, and also when he thanks Sayid by name after finding his constant (Penny) and returning to the present time. It seems obvious that he remembers everything that was experienced by both consciousnesses. So my question is this: If Desmond's "present consciousness" (the one that was in his past body during time travel) remembers going into the past, does his "past consciousness" (which is now back in his past body in the year 1996) remember being in the future? It should, given what that the opposite is true. If this is the case, and it should be, than as soon as Desmond spoke to Penny in the future and the time travel process is stopped, his body in the past would wake up and he would fully remember having the conversation with her and being on that freighter with an Arab and a tripping out dude. If this is the case, and it should be unless my thinking is off here, than why would Desmond not have known that this entire situation was going to happen all along since his "present consciousness" is simply a future state of his "past consciousness" and his "past consciousness" knows about it?

[islander]

what do you think of this?

the storm displaces des to 1996 and erases his 2004 consciousness.

in 2004 he told dan he was "supposed to be in 1996." however, when his consciousness returned to his 1996 surroundings, he knew peoples' names, unlike in 2004 while he was on the freighter he did not know sayid's name. you can argue his 2004 consciousness would know the names of people he knew in 1996, but while he was in 1996, he kept saying his 2004 displacements were dreams. it seemed mentally he was ok in his 1996 surroundings so he didn't act like he should be in 2004. but not so in 2004 where he was clearly confused early on.

des' conversations with dan and his displacements to 2004 educated his 1996 consciousness, and thus his 1996 consciousness became aware of his 2004 perdicament, and once he talked with penny and remembered sayid's name his 2004 consciousness was restored.

[heavensprincess]

I'm with you islander that's how I thought it worked...I thought they kept it pretty simple and easy to follow (the time travel).

[Rain13]

Hmm I'm not quite sure I'm following what you're saying. Are you proposing that it's his 1996 consciousness that is traveling into the future and that once he is able to locate his constant and stop time travel it instantly forgets all that has just happened? If so, you're right about one thing: the consciousness he has in 2004 doesn't know where he is and thus it cannot be his 2004 consciousness. However, the consciousness he has in 1996 does, contrary to what you're saying, think that he should be in the future, and this is proven by the fact that he remembers everything that has happened to him between 1996 and 2004. The only difference is how he interprets the situation that he finds himself in, and I will explain the reason for this difference below.

Think about this: If you woke up tomorrow morning and lucidly remembered living out the next 8 years of your life as if it were a reality you had just woken up from, wouldn't you respond in the same way Desmond did? He was in shock, and while he did say "I must have dreamed it" to his friend who is giving him the "you're crazy" look, it is clear that he knows something else is going on. The only difference here is that he's in a situation where he isn't completely disoriented because he has been there before. When his 2004 consciousness enters his 1996 body it knows exactly where it is and remembers the people around it. It recognizes the situation as being reality, and thus concludes that everything it has just experienced in the future must be a dream. His 1996 consciousness, on the other hand, has just been transferred to his 2004 body and has absolutely no idea where he is or what is going on. This is why he's panicking and disoriented. He wakes up thinking that he is in 1996 and then is immediately bombarded with surroundings that are foreign to him. In this case, anyone's natural reaction would be panic and a strong desire to be brought back to the reality where we came from.

It seems to me that each of these situations are completely symmetrical, and that the only difference, which is the fact that one consciousness knows where it is and one doesn't, is what explains why 2004 Desmond is having a panic-attack and 1996 Desmond is thinking "holy crap did I just dream all that, what's going on?".

[Rain13]

Easy to follow?? Than please, enlighten us! :D

[heavensprincess]

I took it as he was back in time in 1996 the whole time. Not really sure if he ever came back to 2004. Daniel helped him find his way by finding his constant simple and to the point...The whole 1996 and 2004 consciousness going back and forth seems like a little much to me..just don't think there has to be a big elaborate answer for everything on the show..even though it is fun to throw them out there. The only thing I want to know is if he died did both bodies die. I do love reading what you have to write though and I'm sure it's probably not at easy as I may believe.

[Rain13]

So you're saying he was simply travelling back in time to 1996? If this is the case, than why does he think that he belongs in 1996 when he is conscious in 2004? It's pretty clear that his 1996 consciousness travels to 2004, that's why he thinks he belongs back in boot camp and why he has no recollection of who Sayid is or why he's on a helicopter. He's not just having amnesia. How can you explain this?

[islander]

I follow what you're saying, but here's where we differ: you said "When his 2004 consciousness enters his 1996 body it knows exactly where it is and remembers the people around it. It recognizes the situation as being reality, and thus concludes that everything it has just experienced in the future must be a dream."

I agree if his 2004 consciousness was displaced to 1996, by definition, he would KNOW it's NOT a dream, but his 1996 consciousness would be familiar with his 1996 surroundings also, and his 1996 consciousness would think his displacement to 2004 was a dream, correct? His 2004 consciousness would be aware that he's somehow been displaced to 1996 a la the movie "ground hog day." He would know his future up to 2004. He would have to wonder why he appears to be reliving 1996, but i did not get the impression he felt that way during his 1996 displacements.

[heavensprincess]

I think his mind is alway set in 1996 even when he's in 2004..I don't think his 2004 consciousness ever came back until maybe at the end after he speaks to penny, I'm not even sure if it came back then. Only an opinion...Like I said I just don't believe they go back and forth his 1996 and 2004 conscious. Some how I believe his 2004 conscious got displaced, erased or whatever the case may be.

[islander]

Rain13, Don't my comments above answer the last question in your original post quoted below?

"If this is the case, and it should be unless my thinking is off here, than why would Desmond not have known that this entire situation was going to happen all along since his "present consciousness" is simply a future state of his "past consciousness" and his "past consciousness" knows about it?"

[Rain13]

I think is mind is alway set in 1996 even when he's in 2004..I don't think his 2004 consciousness ever came back until maybe at the end after he speaks to penny, I'm not even sure if it came back then. Only an opinion...Like I said I just don't believe they go back and forth his 1996 and 2004 conscious. Some how I believe his 2004 conscious got displaced, erased or whatever the case may be.

But you're forgetting that his consciousness in 1996 remembers everything that has happened in the future and is not simply the same as his 1996 consciousness. He does not explicitly say this during his most recent bout of time travel, but in my original post I mentioned that this must be the case because this is what happened during his first experience with time travel when the hatch exploded. When he is jolted back to approximately 1995 after the hatch explodes, he wakes up with full knowledge of his future on the island. I will address this further after I respond to Islander.

Islander, your most recent post just proves that we disagree on how his 2004 consciousness would react to being sent back into his 1996 body. You're saying that he would conclude that he has somehow returned to a past point in time and thus correctly identify the situation he's in. This is possible, but I'm saying that he most likely would not be this shrewd. Instead, he would simply be extremely disoriented and unable to quantify his position. Again, he would have full memory and awareness of his life in the future since he did truly experience it, but having just woken up in a familiar situation to him in a place where he, at least at some point in time, should be, he would likely conclude that he is simply going insane, which does seem to be the assessment that he makes in his most recent time traveling experience.

Now, returning to where I was before: During his first time travel experience after the hatch explosion, Desmond is aware that he has traveled back in time. It is 1995, and he completely remembers everything that has happened to him on the island (in the future), and with this knowledge in mind he attempts to change the course of the future by buying Penny's ring. At this point, the old lady corrects him and informs him that the course of the future cannot be changed and that despite his best efforts to do so, the course of time will autocorrect itself. You cannot deny that, in this situation, Desmond's 2004 consciousness has traveled back in time to his 1995 body. You also cannot deny that in his most recent case of time travel, his 1996 consciousness has traveled into the future to his 2004 body. However, you are still denying that his 2004 consciousness has traveled back in time to his 1996 body in the latest case of time travel. While I do acknowledge that there is no explicit proof that his 2004 consciousness has inhabited his 1996 body in this particular situation due to the fact that he never mentions anything about the island or the future, you must acknowledge that since the prior case proves that his "present consciousness" can travel into his "past body" that either it is the case that his consciousnesses from two separate times are merely swapping bodies as I am asserting, or you must contend that instance of time travel after the hatch explosion was a case of him traveling back in time while this most recent instance of time travel is a case of his past consciousness traveling into the future.

Wow, I was just reading some of Kant's writings and this is much more dense stuff!

[heavensprincess]

When was it said that his first time travel experience was after the hatch exploded?? If that is a fact then I will have to ponder for a bit. If that's true why isn't he dead?? He didn't have a constant.

[Rain13]

The first instance of Desmond time traveling happened immediately after he turned the failsafe key in the hatch, thus causing the electromagnetic "incident" and triggering his visions into the future and all that weird stuff. The instant he turned the key, he woke up in the past. He had full awareness of everything that had just happened on the island, and thus it is proven that in this situation his consciousness from 2004 has traveled into his body from 1995. No one can deny this. Also, no one can deny that in the last episode his consciousness from 1996 has traveled to 2004, since it is quite clear that he doesn't think he belongs there and he states that it is 1996. This leaves only two possibilities, as I said before: 1. The most recent episode depicted Desmond's consciousness from 1996 traveling into his body from 2004 and not vice versa as everyone seems to think, or 2. His consciousnesses are not simply traveling in one direction but instead temporarily swapping places as I have said.

Which is it?

[heavensprincess]

I thought he said it was a dream and that it just felt real and he didn't seem to remember anything from 2004...if his first time travel was after the hatch exploded why isn't he dead? He didn't have a constant.

[Rain13]

He did say it felt like a dream but that doesn't change the fact that he did have a recollection of it and thus must have experienced it. That entire episode was based on the fact that Desmond travelled into the past and knew what would happen in the future and tried to change it. Check out the episode on Lostpedia for more details if needed.

The reason he didn't die like Minkowski and Eloise is because he hadn't yet begun to "trip" back and forth between times yet for some reason. After his initial time traveling he did have some minor effects, such as being able to see the future, but it wasn't until he left the island on the helicopter that he began to jump back and forth between times.

[islander]

So you're saying he was simply travelling back in time to 1996? If this is the case, than why does he think that he belongs in 1996 when he is conscious in 2004? It's pretty clear that his 1996 consciousness travels to 2004, that's why he thinks he belongs back in boot camp and why he has no recollection of who Sayid is or why he's on a helicopter. He's not just having amnesia. How can you explain this?

Hey, i wouldn't bet my bottom dollar on my theory, but it seems to fit.

Q: If this is the case, than why does he think that he belongs in 1996 when he is conscious in 2004?

A: The storm displaces his consciousness to 1996 whether he's physically in 2004 or 1996. (maybe that's why he passes out when he's "traveling" - he only has one consciousness so he is a functioning person where ever that consciousness is residing in his physical being.)

You wrote: It's pretty clear that his 1996 consciousness travels to 2004, that's why he thinks he belongs back in boot camp and why he has no recollection of who Sayid is or why he's on a helicopter.

My response: yup...his 2004 body (minkowski asked him if he looked older when des looked in the mirror) somehow had his 1996 consciousness in it. I think everyone agrees with that. The question is: what consciousness was in his 1996 body? I'm saying his 1996 consciousness was there too. It seems you can have only one consciousness - hence the passing out when his consciousness left either his 2004 or 1996 body.

[Rain13]

Did you see my last post? I agree that you can't prove that it was his 2004 consciousness in his 1996 body because he never explicitly says it, so while I do think that this is the case I'm not saying you're wrong in disbeliefing me. However, if you look back to his first instance of time travel after the hatch explosion, you can prove that his 2004 consciousness traveled back in time to his 1995 body in this case. Since we can, at the very least, prove that in one case his 2004 consciousness went back to his 1995 body and in another case his 1996 consciousness went into his 2004 body, than you're maintaining that the first case was an example of him traveling into the past and the most recent case was an example of him traveling into the future?

On that note I must go to bed and I'm sure that I'll return from class tomorrow to see that this thread has grown to 4 pages in length and that I can no longer support my argument because it is long gone! :eek: Oh well, such is the nature of forums lol. It has been good arguing with you, and I hope that one of us is proven wrong this Thursday! :D

[Primax]

His 2004 conscious never went back to 1996 it was his 1996 conscious the entire episode.

When he talks to Faraday back in 1996 he says "all I know about you brother is you end up on some island"

I think an interesting question is was Faraday travelling back and forward at the same time...

[Meditate]

Never really thought of that question... interesting. Daniel did need his journal to know if Desmond was lying, and he checked it at the end with a smile on his face. So he knew how the system of what was happening worked, and how to predict it... So hmm.... just confused myself. But you see where I'm going with your question right?

[bunnydixon]

i have said it before and have said it again that the whole time travelling issue doesnt seem to gel. part of me wonders if its intentional to the story or if its overlooked by the writers. i mean, they will make errors from time to time despite the fact that its a well thought out, researched show and you do have a certain amount of creative leeway with things such as time travel. unfortunately, we will pick holes in it all lol!

[Rain13]

His 2004 conscious never went back to 1996 it was his 1996 conscious the entire episode.

When he talks to Faraday back in 1996 he says "all I know about you brother is you end up on some island"

I think an interesting question is was Faraday travelling back and forward at the same time...

Hmm if he does say that than I guess you're right, that would indicate that in the most recent episode Desmond is simply traveling into the future and that his 2004 consciousness is simply not present during that whole situation and thus my "consciousness swap" theory is wrong. But the original point that I was aiming at still holds, because he did definately travel back in time after the hatch explosion, because in that case he was aware of his future when he was in 1996.

So my question remains: If Desmond in one situation was traveling from 1996 to 2004 (the Constant episode) and in another was traveling from 2004 to 1995 (the Hatch episode), than why didn't, in either of these situations, his consciousness in 1995/1996 retain the information that it acquired while visiting the future? His 2004 consciousness has certainly remembered its trips into the past, so why shouldn't his "past consciousness" remember its trip into the futurel? The answer is: It should. If they're presenting us with a logical method of time travel and not just making up nonesense, than his 1995/1996 consciousness should have gotten a glimpse of its future during at least one of these two situations and thus he would have known his future in 1996.

That's right, Desmond should have known all along that either he was going to end up on an island pushing a button (if he remembered his first instance of time travel) or on a freighter with crazy people (if he remembered his second instance of time travel) and he would have attempted to alter his path into the future. We know that he could not have altered his future no matter how hard he tried because the old lady explained this already, but this doesn't change the fact that Desmond should have come to the island already aware that he would be going back in time at some point.

Do you get where I'm going with this? It's just blatantly obvious to me that none of this time travel business is adding up, it doesn't compute correctly.

[islander]

Rain13 wrote: "Hmm if he does say that than I guess you're right, that would indicate that in the most recent episode Desmond is simply traveling into the future and that his 2004 consciousness is simply not present during that whole situation and thus my "consciousness swap" theory is wrong."

Welcome aboard.

I see your point regarding the hatch explosion, and i'd have to go back and re-watch that episode, but my sense was the hatch experience was different than the storm experience for des. wasn't the hatch experience a one-time time travel while the storm had multiple time travel segments. and i agree his 2004 consciousness did travel back to 1996ish after the hatch explosion. why are des' two experiences different? i dunno.

[Rain13]

The whole point of my thread still remains though, which is this part of my first post (I changed it to reflect that I no longer support my "two consciousness" theory thanks to your pointing out that he wasn't aware of the future when he was talking to Daniel):

"So, we know that once Desmond stops "time traveling" and his consciousness that was previously in the past returns to his present-time body, he is aware of what has just happened. This is evident when he is showed to remember his experience after waking up and emerging from the woods naked, and also when he thanks Sayid by name after finding his constant (Penny) and returning to the present time. So my question is this: If Desmond's "present consciousness" (the one that was in his past body during time travel) remembers going into the past in the last episode, does his "past consciousness" (which is now back in his past body in the year 1995) remember being in the future after his first instance of time travel? It should, given that the opposite is true. If this is the case, and it should be, than his body in the past would wake up and he would fully remember that he will end up on the island. If this is the case, and it should be unless my thinking is off here, than why would Desmond not have known that this entire situation was going to happen all along since his "present consciousness" is simply a future state of his "past consciousness" and his "past consciousness" knows about it?"

The fact that during his first time travel experience he only went back one for a long period of time while his most recent experience was more like jumping back and forth isn't relevent. The fact remains that his consciousness time traveled both times.

[Rain13]

Well it looks like my question was right on, check out the writer's analysis of the time travel situation:

''THE CONSTANT'' REVISITED!
With clarifications from special guest Damon Lindelof!

After last week's time-tripping Desmond episode, I promised you guys some more analysis of ''The Constant'' due to the fact that I watched it while suffering through a crunch of flu-induced fever. As it turns out, it's probably good we spend some more time with it, anyway, given the intensity of passion and interest that many fans continue to have in the episode, arguably the best single outing since season 1's ''Walkabout.'' And to help us understand the story's noodle-cooking intricacies, I have some crucial insight from exec producer and ''Constant'' co-writer Damon Lindelof that I think you'll wanna know. To wit:

WHAT REALLY HAPPENED TO DESMOND?
In ''The Constant,'' Desmond became ''unstuck in time'' after flying through a thundercloud crackling with strange electricity. He experienced something like time travel, though not bodily time travel; instead, his consciousness shuttled between two different time periods, Island present 2004 and Desmond's past 1996. But here's the tricky twist: Desmond's Island-present mind wasn't the one doing the time traveling. When Desmond got hit with Island magic, his consciousness got knocked off-line and was replaced by his 1996 self. It was this older Desmond consciousness that toggled between present and past throughout the episode. Once Desmond '96 completed the errand of getting Penny's phone number so he could call her on Christmas Eve 2004, Desmond's present-day mind came back online, but rebooted with the new memories created by his time-travel adventure. I know: tricky stuff. But I had the chance to run all this by Damon Lindelof — and he says this interpretation is correct.

THE MINKOWSKI EXCEPTION
Desmond had the time-warp blues, but freighter freak Minkowski had Marty McFly Mania: Due to his own exposure to electromagnetic magic, he began psychically commuting back to a pleasant day on a Ferris wheel. He died desperately trying to zip-line back to this happy day one more time. Coldly poignant, I thought. Notice: Unlike Desmond's time-travel story, Minkowski's present day consciousness was making the trip. Lindelof says this difference was designed to make a very important point: ''As Faraday explains in the episode, the effect is random. Sometimes a person can be displaced by minutes, other times, years. And the direction of the effect is equally unpredictable. Our way of demonstrating this was to give Minkowski a wildly different experience than Desmond was having.'' Lindelof says none of this is arbitrary; exposure to electromagnetism or radiation plays a role. But he adds: ''Looking for specific rules for how all this works will lead you down the path of insanity.''

PARADOX R/X, or ''HOW COURSE CORRECTION WORKS''
To be clear, Desmond's past was different before ''The Constant.'' Before his time-travel adventure, Desmond never met Faraday at Oxford, never got Penelope's digits. As a consequence of changing the past, Desmond's personal history has been ''course corrected'' by The Powers That Be, beginning from the moment he walked away from Penny's apartment. Lindelof says this interpretation is also correct. But here's a Big Question: since scoring Penelope's phone number, has Course-Corrected Desmond lived his life knowing that on Christmas Eve 2004, he MUST be on a freighter in the South Pacific in order to make a call to Penelope if he wants any chance of having a future with her? Lindelof says this is indeed a matter we should be mulling. Perhaps in the future, Lost will give us an episode that replays Desmond's backstory (getting the boat from Libby; killing Kelvin; meeting the castaways) from the point of view of this knowingness."

So this latest time travel has given Desmond's consciousness in 1996 a peak at the future and this HAS changed Desmond's course through time. This means that when Desmond was in the hatch he knew that at some point he would get out and be on a freighter. However, how does this make sense given what we have seen of Desmond's life so far, or as the writer seems to say, are we going to see that the flashbacks that we've seen of Desmond were not correct at all?