305 vs. 325

[justjoe]

Figured since there is so much talk on this we should start a thread for it. Here is what I feel about this. Ben sent Michael and Walt on a bearing of 325. Daniel sent Frank on a bearing of 305. My theory is that there are multiple ways to get off the island depending on where you want to end up. Sort of like choosing what's behind door number 1, 2 or 3. So no matter where you start from you will have to head to a constant point on the compass. Here's what I mean.

Take a Bearing
By simply moving your compass with your body and using the N-E-S-W markings, you can get a good idea which way you are going. This is often all you need from your compass. But, you've probably noticed on your compass, there are also numbers and tiny lines. These represent the 360 degrees in a circle that surrounds you no matter where you are.

<a href="http://s107.photobucket.com/albums/m317/justjoe001/?action=view&current=compass-degrees.gif" target="_blank"><img src="http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m317/justjoe001/compass-degrees.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

When you need to find your way from one particular place to another, you need to use these numbers to find out the bearing to that remote place. The direction you are going is called your heading. Heading and Bearing are pretty much the same thing. The image above is a heading of about 250 degress.

[agmic]

boy scout?

[justjoe]

No but I was a Blue Jay for a year. Not quite the same thing though.

[Elmer]

The way i am reading this then is the bearing is a very specific direction to head not a location. So there for 2 people starting in 2 different locations would need 2 different bearings to get to the same place. So in order for a bearing to serve its purpose you not only need to know where you are heading but where you are.

[justjoe]

The bearings would be the same because it's a constant. The direction you are heading would be different based on where you start from.

[justjoe]

And let's not forget. They had to go 40 miles on a bearing of 305 and then 7 kilometers East. Why miles and kilos I don't know.

[Snape]

The image above is a heading of about 250 degress.

I don't understand your last statement (quoted). If true north is 0, and you go in a clockwise direction, the image above (in your post) is definitely between 270 and 360 (up and to the left).

[ortrules]

<a href="http://s107.photobucket.com/albums/m317/justjoe001/?action=view&current=compass-degrees.gif" target="_blank"><img src="http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m317/justjoe001/compass-degrees.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>


Ok, look at the compass. Now imagine you're there and I'm at a different point. I look at my compass at it looks like this:

http://home.comcast.net/~ortrules/compass.jpg

So if we both take the same bearing of 250, we're heading in different directions. So in order for us to get to the same place, we need to take different bearings.

[agmic]

ohhhhhhhh could that point then be where the 325 would be......

[agmic]

nope don't work.....

[justjoe]

So what I am saying is if we are both heading to 250 and I was at the north pole and you were at the south pole I would have to travel south west to get there and you would have to travel west north west to get there. But we are still heading on a bearing of 250 because 250 is always at that point on the compass.

[ortrules]

So what I am saying is if we are both heading to 250 and I was at the north pole and you were at the south pole I would have to travel south west to get there and you would have to travel west north west to get there. But we are still heading on a bearing of 250 because 250 is always at that point on the compass.
Ok. You're on the North Pole and I'm on the South Pole. To meet in the middle, I head north and you head south. Note: we are heading to same point. However, my bearing (north) is 0 degrees while your bearing (south) is 180 degrees.

We will meet at the same point, but we are traveling at different bearings.

[Elmer]

The direction you are going is called your heading. Heading and Bearing are pretty much the same thing. The image above is a heading of about 250 degress.

The way that part reads is that the bearing is the direction you going. And therefore would be subject to where you are in order to get to a predefined location.

[justjoe]

I think my head is going to explode. I am not a smart man so this sort of stuff gives me a headache. So ort the way I look at it is we are not heading to the same point because I am heading on a bearing of 180 and you are on a bearing of 0. At some point we will meet but we are not heading on the same bearing. Where's navyguy when you need him?

[Rain13]

Ok. You're on the North Pole and I'm on the South Pole. To meet in the middle, I head north and you head south. Note: we are heading to same point. However, my bearing (north) is 0 degrees while your bearing (south) is 180 degrees.

We will meet at the same point, but we are traveling at different bearings.

Yes, this is what's confusing me.

Another one of my wonderful works of art:

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh171/Rain12913/bearing-1.jpg

Aren't these two boats heading on two different bearings, one on a bearing of 95 and the other on a bearing of 80, in order to get to the same point?

[justjoe]

I love these pictures. They are great. I look at it as they are heading in different directions to get to the same (constant) bearing. Who knows?

[Rain13]

I love these pictures. They are great. I look at it as they are heading in different directions to get to the same (constant) bearing. Who knows?

But wouldn't that imply that "bearing" = a fixed location, and not a direction? I think this whole debate is just about what bearing means...we all agree that Michael and Frank would have had to travel in two different DIRECTIONS to get to the point where they could safely leave the island. If they traveled in exactly the same direction, they would be traveling parallel to each other and would thus never intersect at the correct point. We just need someone who can better explain what "bearing" means, because I had just assumed it meant direction.

[Elmer]

My interpretation is that the bearing is a very specific direction as to just a vague N,S,E,W so that each degree of change in direction would change your bearing by 1. therefore bearing is relative to current location.

[Snape]

It doesn't matter, it's just definitions. What we're disputing is:

Does bearing mean destination or direction?
Does heading mean destination or direction?

It's a moot point - it's just vocabulary. Now someone go look it up. :)

[Rain13]

Exactly, that's what I thought to. But Justjoe seems to be saying that bearing is something completely different than what we're talking about, though I'm not quite following him...perhaps because I'm directionally impaired, though I believe I'm thinking straight.

[Rain13]

It doesn't matter, it's just definitions. What we're disputing is:

Does bearing mean destination or direction?
Does heading mean destination or direction?

It's a moot point - it's just vocabulary. Now someone go look it up. :)

I've had the "bearing" page on wikipedia open this whole time and it hasn't helped at all lol. Can someone please help us?

[thelawgiver]

Ort is on it. JJ you are misconstruing a direction of travel with being a fixed point on the earth (which is longitute and latitude). The drawing on the other thread crudely demonstrates this point. Not to say I'm an expert, but I am drawing on my old eagle scout knowledge and having learned and taught orienteering some years ago. Use your North Pole v. South Pole analogy. Standing at the north pole and say you wanted to go to the south pole. You would set 180 degrees as your direction of travel and then align the compass needle north. From the South pole, your direction of travel would be 360 degrees with the needle aligned. So the different bearings (direction of travel) would be 180 degrees and 360 degrees.
Try this one with your compass. Stand with your compass and find a fixed point, say a buliding in the distance. Point the direction of travel arrow at the building. Then turn the circle part of the compass to align the needle on north. Note the degree for the direction of travel. Next move left or right about a half mile. Point the arrow at the same building and realign north on the compass setting. You will then see that the degrees (bearing) are not the same. The building is in the same place, but you are approaching from different points, thus the difference in the direction of travel (bearing).

Now if you really want to bend your mind, we could start talking about the difference between magnetic north and true north and how you compensate for that difference!!!!

[agmic]

Yes, this is what's confusing me.

Another one of my wonderful works of art:

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh171/Rain12913/bearing-1.jpg

Aren't these two boats heading on two different bearings, one on a bearing of 95 and the other on a bearing of 80, in order to get to the same point?

navyguy might not be here but a jarhead is....
nowthen, if you take the boat one going 95 on the bottom and the other going 80 on top they will never cross...

[Elmer]

navyguy might not be here but a jarhead is....
nowthen, if you take the boat one going 95 on the bottom and the other going 80 on top they will never cross...

Explain please. I assumed as long as they were not heading in a parrallel direction eventually they would cross.

[agmic]

cause the one going 95 will be going down and the you going 80 would be going up.... never cross..

[Rain13]

Okay so bearing IS simply the direction you're traveling in right Patchy? That would mean that traveling to a single point from two seperate locations would require two seperate bearings as I've been saying, right?

Agmic, please do explain how "if you take the boat one going 95 on the bottom and the other going 80 on top they will never cross..." works because I'm just about ready to call my 8th grade Algebra teacher and ask him why he taught me all those lies...

[thelawgiver]

I think he means they do not cross until they meet at the designated point.

[Rain13]

cause the one going 95 will be going down and the you going 80 would be going up.... never cross..

Correct, and since the one who is going 95 is ABOVE the one who is going 80 they WILL cross.

[Snape]

I looked it up, they mean the same thing (in essence) - it says they're both directions except "bearing" is always directed east or west FROM true north or south. Heading is a degree measurement clockwise from North starting at 0 degrees and ending at 360.

They both mean direction.

So for our purposes, just say direction if you mean direction and destination if you mean destination.

[Rain13]

I think he means they do not cross until they meet at the designated point.

Well duh lol. That would require some kind of teleportation along the lines of the Orchid orientation video!

[thelawgiver]

And you've got it Rain. You get an Orienteering patch!!

[Rain13]

Thank you for cleaing this up, Master Patchy. Here is a copy of my first drawing for those who are still confused (and just because it's awesome):

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh171/Rain12913/island-1.jpg

[Snape]

Incidentally, I just got out my ruler and calculator and drew a picture of this 305 and 325 business. My curiosity was this:

Is traveling 40 miles at 305 and then 7 kilometers east the same thing as going in a direction of 325?

The answer is "no". But I did come up with a pretty neat picture that I'm gonna hang on my cubicle's tackable board. :)

[justjoe]

Ok so I conferred with some coworkers here who are avid sailors and now I understand. What do I understand? I am a schmuck! I see now what bearing is. Is there any way to delete entire topics?

[Snape]

Note - am I the only one who doesn't see Rain's supposed graphic?

P.S. You can only delete topics if you're a Forum admin. Who are they anyway?

[thelawgiver]

No Problema. Now if we would detour into the ancient Sino Method of Polar Notation, then...

[justjoe]

See, that I know about.

[ortrules]

Thank you for cleaing this up, Master Patchy. Here is a copy of my first drawing for those who are still confused (and just because it's awesome):
Personally, I think the polar bear is the best part. Except the polar bear should be on an old ship with a patch on his eye.

[agmic]

I still don't get it...OK let me start from the beginning...we are on an island in the middle of nowhere correct ?
Now not to confuse anyone. Lets use something that we can relate to....ummm. We'll use New York city and Washington DC.
Now I am in NYC and take JJ is in DC. Using the 305 vs 325, say that I going at a bearing of 325 and JJ takes bearing of 305.. umm we don't cross. But if I go on a bearing of 305 and JJ takes of bearing of 325, then we would cross..

[thelawgiver]

Snape, I think you have to get through a certain fixed point to escape the wierd island stuff, so once you are through you go the frieghter, which makes sense to be a few Kilometers from that fixed point. Say 7 kilometers east of the fixed point.

[justjoe]

To quote Napoleon Dynamite "It's probably the best drawing I've ever done." Thanks for bearing with me guys and setting me in the right direction. :o

[justjoe]

Sorry agmic I think I fried everybodys brains. Either way that is done we would eventually end up crossing paths. If we both headed on a bearing of 305 we would run parrallel to one another and never cross.

[agmic]

Sorry agmic I think I fried everybodys brains. Either way that is done we would eventually end up crossing paths. If we both headed on a bearing of 305 we would run parrallel to one another and never cross.

ok agreed eventually we would cross but to far for the boat to go or the helo to go.....

[thelawgiver]

The only thing to resolve is whether a 20 degree variance makes sense given the locations of leaving and the fixed point off shore. Sounds like I need to pull out a few maps and my compass...

[justjoe]

Agreed agmic. TLG please do this as homewrok tonight. I expect a full report in the morning. Although by then it might be too late.

[agmic]

I have to keep this thing going........going from a fixed point at 305 and 325 for 40 miles in both directions. Now I might be off just a little but the area would be 54,057,623 square feet.....

[justjoe]

Did you use pi to get that?

[agmic]

nope just a big ass drawing.....

[Rain13]

Okay so what you're saying Agmic is that if Michael and Frank traveled at bearings of 305 and 325, respectively, they would have to travel a VERY long distance before they intersected at a common point? I suppose we would need to know how far apart they were to begin with, which we can't know since we don't have a map of the island nor even an exact idea of where they were anyway, but would it be possible to calculate an approximation? Also, what is the significance of 40 miles?

[Snape]

ok agreed eventually we would cross but to far for the boat to go or the helo to go.....

To be clear, if we both left a point, I at a bearing of 305 and you at a bearing of 325, yes we would cross. But we would only cross when we got back to where we started - the original point (we would both make separate geodesics). A geodesic on Earth is roughly 25,000 miles IIRC.

[justjoe]

nope just a big ass drawing.....

Ha ha! Brilliant!

40 Miles is how far the chopper went before it turned right for 7 K. Agmic is trying to figure out if at some point Michael and the freighter would intersect. I think...

[Elmer]

That is going to be impossible to do. We are lacking one critical peice of data we don't know the starting location for Michael or how far he traveled. Bearing only has relavence when you know your current location as well as your destination.

[thelawgiver]

Okay, I think you all may be getting a little too far off on the concept, but it is interesting to discuss. I think the fixed point is where you can go to/from island without problems, etc. It is not were the freighter is, but near the freighter. I think Ben sent Walt on the right bearing to escape the island, but what lied beyond? Who knows? The freighter? Another island?

Anyway, for those of you calculating, someone has tried to make a map of the island with a one-mile grid overlay. Go here and have at it!!

http://lostmap.blogspot.com/

[Snape]

Okay, I think you all may be getting a little too far off on the concept, but it is interesting to discuss. I think the fixed point is where you can go to/from island without problems, etc. It is not were the freighter is, but near the freighter. I think Ben sent Walt on the right bearing to escape the island, but what lied beyond? Who knows? The freighter? Another island?

Anyway, for those of you calculating, someone has tried to make a map of the island with a one-mile grid overlay. Go here and have at it!!

http://lostmap.blogspot.com/

I already did that (I said so in an earlier post - page 3 or so). I traced out 40 miles at 305 and then 7 km east. Then I traced out a flat bearing of 325.

They don't cross - not by a longshot. Note how someone said the Island is big - if you could see my map you will see that the island would need to be very large indeed and they would have to be on opposite ends of the island for it to work.

And you don't have to know how far out Michael gets - I just drew a ray from the island (doesn't end - but still doesn't cross).

[Elmer]

They are only going to cross at one point that is the pathway out. So from their for the 2 bearing to work they would each have to intersect the island at the points where the helicopter and micheal left respective to the bearings they each followed.

[ortrules]

Yea. Snape, your map needs to draw a bearing of 305 degrees out 40 miles from the island. Then, from that point of 40 miles out, you need to draw a bearing of 325 (a 20 degree line) back to the island.

If both those lines hit the island then we are good.

[Gigaman]

So I think we are getting way off track when looking at the logic behind the math and where they would end up. I think the most important thing is that there is one correct bering which will get you off the island with no terrible effects. Ben gave Michel the bearing 325. But I think one other person knows about the significance of this bearing and it is Miles. When he was having a conversation with Ben he asks for 3.2 million dollars or 3,200,000... five zeros so 325... Ben says, why 3.2 not 3.4 or 3.5... I believe they they were talking in code because Kate was there.

[ortrules]

So I think we are getting way off track when looking at the logic behind the math and where they would end up. I think the most important thing is that there is one correct bering which will get you off the island with no terrible effects.
But that's exactly what this thread was about in the first place. You need to understand that a bearing of 325 and a bearing of 305 could potentially take two people in two different locations to the same exit/entrance point.

And I don't buy the whole 3.2 million is code for 325. First of all, Kate was there when Ben told Michael how to get off the island (bearing 325) so there's no reason for secrets like that. Plus, as we saw from Miles' flashback, he's just in it for the money anyway.

[justjoe]

Nooooo!!!!!!!!!!!! I thought this was dead! Oh the humanity!

[islander]

Ha ha! Brilliant!

40 Miles is how far the chopper went before it turned right for 7 K. Agmic is trying to figure out if at some point Michael and the freighter would intersect. I think...

WHOA - sorry I missed this one.

Given the two separate headings, we could calculate the distance Michael was from where the chopper took off by triangulation, IF we knew their destination (the boat) didn't move. Also, I believe since we don't know the new heading the chopper took when it made the right turn, we're not going to be able to triangulate precisely anyway.

suffice it to say: assuming the freighter doesn't move and those leaving the island fly, swin, sail in a straight line, they will need different headings if they depart from different point on the island.
since frank had to follow 305 for 40 miles, i believe that's the window departing people need to get through. once he got through the window and the storm, the skies cleared and he turned right. michael had to follow 325 direction to get through the same window (and we don't know how well he followed that heading, do we? he looks messed up to me)