Ben Is Good, I Promise!

[Rain13]

More evidence for us "Ben is the good guy" folks in this episode. I'm sure I don't need to recap the scene since we probably all just saw it, but Ben essentially told Michael that he could not kill everyone on the freighter because some of its crew members were innocent, and that while he is willing to do almost anything for his cause, he will not kill innocent people. I think this is yet another important, yet subtle, l clue that the writers are giving us indicating that Ben will be revealed as a man with good intentions and ultimately as "the good guy"

Think about it: at this point in the show it seems as if the two opposing forces are Ben and Charles Widmore, with the various Oceanic survivors somewhere in between (and quite confused). Which one is more evil? On the one hand, Ben has played the role of "villain" since his introduction on the show and yet the writers have clearly tried to portray him in a very ambiguous light despite this. His motives are consistently mysterious, and as I've said before, could be seen as justified given the correct motive. On the other hand, Charles Widmore is the epitome of evil. Since his introduction, he's been a complete ass and for no good reason. He shut down Desmond, a good guy with noble intentions, simply because of his social class and he is so much of an ass that he won't even turn off the faucet in a public restroom! :D

Also, it seems like in the sneak peak of the next episode (in a month :mad:) Ben and the crash survivors are defending the island from Widmore's freighter crew together. Thoughts?

[lukin137]

think i might have 2 agree rain... it makes no sense 4 ben to have michael pick n choose the good and bad guys on boat.what would ben care a long as he protects the island. i thought it was at all costs but looks like hes starting to soften or somethn

[wvugurl]

I think at this point Ben will do anything to save his island...I see some good in Ben, but some bad....I still dont think we can trust completely...you dont trust someone who knows more about you than you....there is a reason for it..but i still think we still have to keep a guard up against him

[Rain13]

I think at this point Ben will do anything to save his island...I see some good in Ben, but some bad....I still dont think we can trust completely...you dont trust someone who knows more about you than you....there is a reason for it..but i still think we still have to keep a guard up against him

I think the decision to trust Ben or not would depend on whether you value your own life more than you value the "ultimate good" of humanity. I honestly believe that Ben is working towards a goal that is in the best interest of humanity as a whole, and while that certainly means that I would want to submit to him and follow his orders if I were on the show, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't trust him to not kill me...I'm not sure if I would qualify as innocent by anyone's definition ;)

[wvugurl]

I think the decision to trust Ben or not would depend on whether you value your own life more than you value the "ultimate good" of humanity. I honestly believe that Ben is working towards a goal that is in the best interest of humanity as a whole, and while that certainly means that I would want to submit to him and follow his orders if I were on the show, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't trust him to not kill me...I'm not sure if I would qualify as innocent by anyone's definition ;)

I think that would put him on the same line as Hitler...No one in their right mind kills their father...gased the whole island...etc etc...I think Ben is playing the good guy card right now cause he needs everyones help to save his island

[garetjax1973]

Amen!! How could you say someone is good when they are a murderer, a kidnapper, a manipulator, a liar etc etc. Are you one of those people who is in a abusive relationship and thinks that they do it because they really love you deep down...??? C'Mon!! The guy is simply the less of two Evils The only "good" person that is /was on the Island in my mind would be the innocent baby.

[Rain13]

What would put him on the same level as Hitler? My theory that Ben is good is based on the fact that IF the writers were to tell us right now that Ben had the power to save humanity and that's what he's been fighting for, EVERYTHING he has done thus far would have been understandable.

Whenever I bring up this idea people consistently say that Ben is a ruthless killer who has committed inexusable acts of evil, but what are these acts? Ben's father abused him and was a cold, heartless man. Ben killed him and the Dharma Initiative members, who have been presented as manipulative and twisted and certainly not innocent, in order to achieve what was, in his mind, the greater good. The whole question of whether Ben is good or bad isn't a matter of whether or not Ben kills people simply for the sake of being evil. No one can support that claim. Instead, it's whether or not Ben's motive is a good one or a bad one, and if it's a good one than all of the seemingly evil actions that he's committed would be justified.

[ortrules]

What would put him on the same level as Hitler? My theory that Ben is good is based on the fact that IF the writers were to tell us right now that Ben had the power to save humanity and that's what he's been fighting for, EVERYTHING he has done thus far would have been understandable.

Whenever I bring up this idea people consistently say that Ben is a ruthless killer who has committed inexusable acts of evil, but what are these acts? Ben's father abused him and was a cold, heartless man. Ben killed him and the Dharma Initiative members, who have been presented as manipulative and twisted and certainly not innocent, in order to achieve what was, in his mind, the greater good. The whole question of whether Ben is good or bad isn't a matter of whether or not Ben kills people simply for the sake of being evil. No one can support that claim. Instead, it's whether or not Ben's motive is a good one or a bad one, and if it's a good one than all of the seemingly evil actions that he's committed would be justified.

Ha ha...everything you just said about Ben would be used to describe Hitler. He was killing people for the "greater good" too. I wouldn't call his actions justified.

[garetjax1973]

Sorry but my views are different i can't say that because his dad beat him or mentally abused him he should have killed him. If Ben was a real man he wouldv'e took pity on the man and laughed at what a sorry excuse his father was. killing people is simply a base unstable reaction or in Ben's case a Evil, plotted out, and insane thing to do.

[islander]

Ben is protecting the island. Whether you believe Ben is a good guy or not depends on whether you believe the island needs protection. For now I'm thinking Richard, Jacob and Ben are guardians of the island, so for me, Ben's one of the good guys.

[skatertsol]

I don't know if Ben is bad or good but for the first time EVER I saw genuine fear in him tonight between the brief shots and the preview for the next episodes....That was weird.

[garetjax1973]

Why do we have to have good and Bad? Why not protector and defender? Why not bad and badder? Lol... Sorry I am just trying to stir up sh#$%T. LOL

[Rain13]

Amen!! How could you say someone is good when they are a murderer, a kidnapper, a manipulator, a liar etc etc. Are you one of those people who is in a abusive relationship and thinks that they do it because they really love you deep down...??? C'Mon!! The guy is simply the less of two Evils The only "good" person that is /was on the Island in my mind would be the innocent baby.

Interesting you say that, because I know that a majority of our nation would say that someone who is a murderer, a kidnapper, a manipulator, and a liar can in fact be good. When you are at war, you are permitted to do these things to the enemy in order to achieve the greater good. Our soldiers kill enemy soldiers, take prisoners against their will, and manipulate and lie in order to outwit the enemy. We praise our soldiers for going overseas and "fighting for our cause", and yet this is what they're really doing over there...nobody denies this.

Now, please don't take this as some anti-war rant, because it's not. I'm merely trying to point out that when somebody's motives are seen as just, they are permitted to commit acts that would otherwise be seen as wrong. Is killing an enemy soldier not murder? Is taking an enemy prisoner not kidnap? Is deceiving enemy generals not lying and manipulating? This is what these acts truly are, and yet when we believe that they are committed in the interest of preserving our safety and future, we no longer consider them evil.

I'll say it one more time: if it were to be revealed that Ben was fighting to save the human race and that the people he killed were not innocent, he would be a good guy just like many people view our soldiers who have committed many of the same acts of murder and deceit that he has.

[wvugurl]

Dont get me wrong..I like Ben...however...like i said before i see good and bad...but i would not classify him as being for the good of humanity...that would describe hitler-blue hair blonde eyes...if ben is wanting the good for humanity that is like hitler saying a perfect world was blue eyed blonde haired people...i would not use good of humanity to promote the good of ben

[ortrules]

We praise our soldiers for going overseas and "fighting for our cause", and yet this is what they're really doing over there...nobody denies this.

Correction, we support our soldiers because we don't want to see them get harmed - not to go around killing people.

[awsnyde]

...take prisoners against their will...

Please tell me when our soldiers have ever kidnapped a child? And the sickos who raped that 14-year old Iraqi girl don't count.
Nothing excuses kidnapping a child.

[wvugurl]

k soldiers have nothing to do with this..if they do not..they will go to prison...ben has a choice...i would hope this is the end to dragging our soldiers into this

[Rain13]

Ha ha...everything you just said about Ben would be used to describe Hitler. He was killing people for the "greater good" too. I wouldn't call his actions justified.

Are you a pacifist? Because if not, than you are being entirely hypocritical. To say that murder is never justified is a very bold step that is difficult to defend. If saving the human race is not enough justification for Ben to kill people, what is?

[Chicagoish]

I seem to pull for Ben. That certainly doesn't make him a good guy. But Widmore on the other hand, has never been shown in a positive light.

But the way this show progresses, that can all change in an instant and then what..

[awsnyde]

And I should say, kidnapping multiple children, since he also kidnapped Alex, and kept her away from her own mother and as his own child, as well as the children from the tail section of 815.

[ortrules]

Are you a pacifist? Because if not, than you are being entirely hypocritical. To say that murder is never justified is a very bold step that is difficult to defend. If saving the human race is not enough justification for Ben to kill people, what is?

Well, first of all, you need to show me where Ben says he is saving the human race. As far as I know, he's just trying to save his own skin.

Second, there is a HUGE difference between victims of war, an mass genocide. Ben kills ALL of Dharma, and you justify that by saying he did it for the greater good? I'm sure not all those people involved with Dharma were bad.

[garetjax1973]

Who said "we support soldiers killing people taking prisoners etc." Now your classifying al people together. some may not think war is good no matter what the reason. my personal beliefs aside on war I think you are comparing apples and oranges. Or let me put it this way if he was doing these CRIMES in the good ol USA whould he stand a chance in court? Would (if you believe in God and such) go to heaven??? If you answer yes please explain how if you answer no then you have your answer on if he is a "good" person..

[wvugurl]

lets just vote trust no one..when it comes to this show

[Rain13]

Okay, I'm going to completely move my analogy from our current soldiers to the actions of US soldiers in World War II. Were not they justified in committing acts of murder and deceit and manipulation?

You're saying that no matter how good and just Ben's motive is, it could never justify the acts he's committed. My point in bringing up war was this: If Ben can't be justified in killing, than how can anyone? Ben has done nothing more sinister than committ murder. Again, if we were told that Ben has a good motive than we would realize that he did not "kidnap" Walt, but instead obviously did it out of interest for him.

[wvugurl]

soldiers have nothing to do with this..bottom line...their job is to protect the USA...Ben has a theory of "good of humanity" in is mind which is not the way the whole world works

[awsnyde]

...nothing more sinister than committ murder....

I'm not going to say I entirely disagree with you, especially not in this fictional context, but there's not much more sinister than that. ;-)

[skatertsol]

And what about this? What is this war being fought FOR/AGAINST? That could play more into the good of all/why? etc. If there is some healing power to this island and Widmore is going to destroy it or any other theories? Also,for a man as powerful as Ben has proven to be, he looks damn scared in the previews.

[ortrules]

Okay, I'm going to completely move my analogy from our current soldiers to the actions of US soldiers in World War II. Were not they justified in committing acts of murder and deceit and manipulation?

You're saying that no matter how good and just Ben's motive is, it could never justify the acts he's committed. My point in bringing up war was this: If Ben can't be justified in killing, than how can anyone? Ben has done nothing more sinister than committ murder. Again, if we were told that Ben has a good motive than we would realize that he did not "kidnap" Walt, but instead obviously did it out of interest for him.

Ok, say you have a son. I break into your home and kidnap him - well, don't worry, it's for the greater good.

And you can't get mad at me, because I'm justified in doing it according to you.

[Rain13]

soldiers have nothing to do with this..bottom line...their job is to protect the USA...Ben has a theory of "good of humanity" in is mind which is not the way the whole world works

Yes, their job is to protect the US using whatever means necesarry. We give them this power because we believe that the protection of the US is in the best interest of the greater good, and as such, we deam it permissable for soldiers to commit acts that would otherwise be unjustified and thus evil. Few, except pacifists who are the only ones who should be objecting to the notion that Ben COULD be good, would debate this reasoning.

Ben can be supported using this same reasoning. Ben has committed acts that, without justification, would be evil. However, the writers have made Ben's motives for committing these acts very morally ambiguous, and if they WERE to reveal that Ben's motive was in the interest of the greater good, his actions would become justified and he would be a good character.

[wvugurl]

ok explain why ben killed his father...i seen his father treated him like ****...well ya know what..i have had people treat me like **** my whole life..i never killed them and do n ot plan to...THAT IS CALLED MURDER!....then he shot locke..locke was never a big threat..he shot him and left him for dead...ATTEMPTED MURDER...so tell me the good in this

[wvugurl]

Yes, their job is to protect the US using whatever means necesarry. We give them this power because we believe that the protection of the US is in the best interest of the greater good, and as such, we deam it permissable for soldiers to commit acts that would otherwise be unjustified and thus evil. Few, except pacifists who are the only ones who should be objecting to the notion that Ben COULD be good, would debate this reasoning.

Ben can be supported using this same reasoning. Ben has committed acts that, without justification, would be evil. However, the writers have made Ben's motives for committing these acts very morally ambiguous, and if they WERE to reveal that Ben's motive was in the interest of the greater good, his actions would become justified and he would be a good character.

have ben join the military and i will support him..oh wait he cannot he is a murderer

[skatertsol]

ok explain why ben killed his father...i seen his father treated him like ****...well ya know what..i have had people treat me like **** my whole life..i never killed them and do n ot plan to...THAT IS CALLED MURDER!....then he shot locke..locke was never a big threat..he shot him and left him for dead...ATTEMPTED MURDER...so tell me the good in this
I don't think he was trying to kill Locke..he shot him where his kidney should have been; Locke points this out in the first episode of the season. "I would've died too if I had a kidney there"

[wvugurl]

I don't think he was trying to kill Locke..he shot him where his kidney should have been; Locke points this out in the first episode of the season. "I would've died too if I had a kidney there"


my point is i do not believe a judge will believe that shooting someone is ok as long as you were not trying to kill them

[awsnyde]

...using whatever means necesarry...

Again, not to entirely disagree with you, but soldiers have to follow lots and lots of laws and rules. They definitely are not allowed to use "whatever means necessary."

[ortrules]

And then tell us how the greater good of committing mass genocide of the Dharma camp is justified - not everyone there was evil.

[skatertsol]

my point is i do not believe a judge will believe that shooting someone is ok as long as you were not trying to kill them
My point is there is no judges on this island and he had a purpose to shooting Locke....in that particular spot....

[Rain13]

ok explain why ben killed his father...i seen his father treated him like ****...well ya know what..i have had people treat me like **** my whole life..i never killed them and do n ot plan to...THAT IS CALLED MURDER!....then he shot locke..locke was never a big threat..he shot him and left him for dead...ATTEMPTED MURDER...so tell me the good in this

Simple: Ben is in a war zone. Again, all I'm arguing is that IF it were revealed that Ben was motivated by the interest of the greater good, he would be justified, so for the sake of argument please assume that the writers have just told us that "Ben has found the secret which will save humanity and is fighting to keep it safe so he can use it to save the world". If this were the case, than we realize that Ben has never committed an evil act simply for the sake of being evil. Philosopher Immanuel Kant says that the morality of an action should not be judged by its consequences, but by the intentions behind it. While this is not always completely true, it is true in many cases, and when a murder is committed in order to save humanity, we tend to think that it is no longer an evil act.

[awsnyde]

Also, while it may certainly be true that Ben believes it, we have no evidence either way from the creators, or anything that has happened on the show, that "saving the island" is actually a good thing. That's another mystery yet to be revealed.

[garetjax1973]

Rain just a FYI because I disagree with you or push a couple buttons to get you to open up on a view you have does not make me a pacifist...lol I actually believe that we as humans have a right to DEFEND ourselves from harm by any means necessary. I DO NOT believe in killing others for Oil money or a frickin Island that kills babies and makes men walk and can take me back to when I used to wet my pants. Admit you are being a little one minded here. Is your last name Bush??? JK Anyway nothing personal but you really seem to want to keep things generalized. It is ok to say Ben is a psychopathic, evil man who "thinks" he is doing good. But if killing and all that crap that goes on there was his justification. Keep the Island! So Widmore wants to get more powerful and rich if he really wanted to Save the world wouldn't you want everyone to know about it and not be selfish as he is to keep it for himself?
On this note I am dobne with this thread my fingers hurt... lol

[sj256]

I don't think he was trying to kill Locke..he shot him where his kidney should have been; Locke points this out in the first episode of the season. "I would've died too if I had a kidney there"

Knowing what we know now, would Locke really have died? And did Ben think he killed him?

[Ureval]

Maybe Ben has good intentions, but the guys is very very flawed. While he may do somethings for good, he has also been very demented and self absorbed, as evidenced by tonights episode, killing Carl and Rousseau, not to mention the dude on the beach in the first season, or what he did to Michael, Juliet, Jack... hell just about everyone.

Maybe Ben's ultimate Goal is noble, but BEN is not a good person.

[wvugurl]

My point is there is no judges on this island and he had a purpose to shooting Locke....in that particular spot....

the only meaning behind this is that ben is "good" for all this...and soldiers are brought in etc etc...if we are talking real world..war events etc etc...then a judge would not buy that....nothing against what you said...just the topic as a whole

[ortrules]

Simple: Ben is in a war zone. Again, all I'm arguing is that IF it were revealed that Ben was motivated by the interest of the greater good, he would be justified, so for the sake of argument please assume that the writers have just told us that "
I know you want us to assume Ben is motivated by this, but where in the world do you get this? There is absolutely no basis to Ben trying to save the world, nor is there any basis to Widmore trying to find the island to destroy the world.

If you want to convince me that Ben is really a good guy, it's going to take much more than just assumptions and theories. In fact, for all we know, Ben killed the Dharma people so that HE could control the world and Widmore is trying to stop Ben from doing that.

[wvugurl]

I know you want us to assume Ben is motivated by this, but where in the world do you get this? There is absolutely no basis to Ben trying to save the world, nor is there any basis to Widmore trying to find the island to destroy the world.

If you want to convince me that Ben is really a good guy, it's going to take much more than just assumptions and theories. In fact, for all we know, Ben killed the Dharma people so that HE could control the world and Widmore is trying to stop Ben from doing that.

oh no..you just added another theory to my list!

[skatertsol]

Knowing what we know now, would Locke really have died? And did Ben think he killed him?
No...Ben knew that Locke didn't have a kidney there, that's where Ben shot him, I don't think he was shooting to kill even though he was pissed off about the whole Locke heard Jacob thing I think he was trying to scare Locke or something. i'm not positive of the purpose but I think that Locke needs Ben and Ben needs Locke-which is why neither of them have offed eachother yet-they've had PLENTY of opportunities.

[McMason]

I dont remember any of the losties starting a war. Their plane crashed, they did not initiate the kidnappings. They were inoccents. That would be like soldiers killing people that they are not at war with.

[JDWatPITT]

I think the question of Ben's motives--and whether he is good or evil--is one of those things that we'll be wondering about until the end of Season 6. That's got to be part of the endgame. Until then, it makes sense that they would string us along by making Ben a morally ambiguous character.

[skatertsol]

the only meaning behind this is that ben is "good" for all this...and soldiers are brought in etc etc...if we are talking real world..war events etc etc...then a judge would not buy that....nothing against what you said...just the topic as a whole
Yeah I wasn't trying to bring the whole world into it just my little piece as it directly relates to the fictional show, not correlating it with the real-world events. Not yet anyway I'm sure that will be in another thread to come ;) for now...bedtime. Happy Arguing crew!

[Chicagoish]

I know you want us to assume Ben is motivated by this, but where in the world do you get this? There is absolutely no basis to Ben trying to save the world, nor is there any basis to Widmore trying to find the island to destroy the world.

If you want to convince me that Ben is really a good guy, it's going to take much more than just assumptions and theories. In fact, for all we know, Ben killed the Dharma people so that HE could control the world and Widmore is trying to stop Ben from doing that.

She has Faith that Ben is good!

[robert]

Ben may be protecting the island but please don't ever refer to Ben as a really good guy. After all the horrible things his did to the losties, the way he tortured Sawyer, Jack and Kate and shot Locke, among many other things, he could never be a "good guy". He enjoys torturing and tormenting people to suit his needs.

[Mat]

ben has done so many bad things throughout his life and he is always one step ahead of everyone else. That is always the sign of a bad guy. Plus i think he sent danielle and carol to their deaths. You also see ben in the future with his new ginnypig (siede) killing people left and right. im not saying that mr windmore is a good guy or a bad guy (right now we dont have enough info) but ben is def. a bad guy. I Promise!

[Lostfan1]

I'm with the Widmore side!:D
Ben will do anything to get what he wants (Including killing innocent people)
(He had the two women in the lookink glass killed by Pachty)
Ben is the biggest MANIPULATOR i have ever scene!
Everyone knows that Ben has the power to do anything he wants.. or just about anything.
If Ben wanted to protect the Island, wouldn't he plant a fake plane crash so the island won't be found?
Which would mean he lied to Micheal
Widmoe has no good motive to go through the trouble to plant a phony plane.
Another reason why i think Ben is EVIL...
If you watch when He is looking at Carl put his arm around Alex he looks kind of angry. -or like he was planning somthing.( The same way he looked at Carls gun before he shoots Charlet.)
He wants Alex all for himself. Immediatly afterwards he told Alex to take Carl and Danniel to the temple-where they just so happen to be killed (mabey)
He even convinced Danniel to go by reconizing her as Alex's mother.
To sum it all up Ben is exactly where he wants to be. He will lie, kill, and manipulate his way into getting anything and everything he wants!!!!!!!!:eek:

[Rain13]

Well jeez, I start a thread and then go make a quick phone call and when I come back it's become a war zone in and of itself :D There are way too many posts on here to address everything that's been said, but let me just summarize my viewpoint as best I can before I retire for the night and leave the rest of you to curse me and call me names while I sleep ;)

Save for the strictest pacifists who maintain that killing under any circumstances can never be justified, we all agree that murder can at times be in the best interest of society. This is the reason why we unanimously support military action in cases like World War II, and this is the reason why self-defense is an admittable defense in murder trials. With that said, I merely propose that were it to be revealed that Ben was in fact acting in the interest of the greater good, his actions on the show thus far would be justified and he could effectively be presented as "the good guy". I'm not trying to convince anyone that we have any reason to believe that Ben is trying to "save the world", all I'm trying to say is that I find it very interesting that the writers have been careful to make Ben justify himself as the "good guy" and also that they have ensured that Ben is never presented in a downright "evil for the sake of evil" way.

We know that Lost is a show that will constantly "blow our minds" and completely change how we view it's reality in a single instant. Wouldn't the ultimate Lost twist be that Ben is in fact the good guy and that he's been acting in the best interest of humanity all along? Doesn't the fact that they've left this as a possibility make anyone wonder?

Goodnight, happy arguing :p

[wvugurl]

no i would actually hate it if that is how ben turned out...i like ben...but not as a save the world kind of guy :)

[easterbeast]

i think ben is what he says................

but the writers are doing a good job at not revealing who the really bad guy is....ben or widmore.

i think its widmore that is bad because look at this season.

sayid seemed to fllip out on micheal a little bit when he found out he was working for ben.

in the futere.........sayid is working for ben

[sporky]

haha i've agreed with the OP since we first met ben a couple seasons ago. a poster mentioned a few posts ago that the losties were innocent when they crashed on the island... really? how do you think all those purgatory rumors got started? very few people on that plane were "innocent." there were murderers, torturers, liars, cheaters, manipulators. if anything, they are the bad guys ;) and yes, ben kidnapped some kids. but in his mind he could have been kidnapping the truly innocent ones on the plane to make sure they survived (had food, shelter, all that good stuff).

but of course, in the end, we don't really know. and we'll all just have to wait another season and half to find out the good and bad in all of the people on the show.

[bunnydixon]

well ben definitely believes he is a good guy!! and he may well be or he may just be very good at getting others to believe it!!!

i am on the fence for this one. he did say that he will do what he needs to do but not kill innocent people yet its seems like carl and rousseau dying was a blatant set up - probably by ben!!

[boutte]

I don't have time right to read the whole thread so I don't know if this has been mentioned but what about Goodwin? Does a good guy purposely get some one killed because he's getting the girl you have a crush on?

[justjoe]

But Ben indirectly did kill innocent people. By having Michael trash the engines he caused the boat to drift closer to the island. In turn this caused Minkowski, Regina and the other crew member who shall remain nameless for some unknown reason (still curious about that one) to go off the deep end and kill themselves. Were they guilty or innocent? Ben is a manipulative, coniving, SOB who always gets what he wants on his terms. And I love it!

[beachblinkette]

What is Ben's definition of "innocent"? Maybe Ben is using Widmore's name and has sent the freighter himself. You know, create a diversion, divide and conquer. Get the Losties to separate, weaken them. etc. I think Frank is the shooter and that is why the chopper has an appointment to not be late. Ben wants Carl and Rousseau out of the way, it seems. We know so little of these characters on the freighter and also of Widmore. They could be the straw dogs being "played" by Ben.

[Rain13]

But Ben indirectly did kill innocent people. By having Michael trash the engines he caused the boat to drift closer to the island. In turn this caused Minkowski, Regina and the other crew member who shall remain nameless for some unknown reason (still curious about that one) to go off the deep end and kill themselves. Were they guilty or innocent? Ben is a manipulative, coniving, SOB who always gets what he wants on his terms. And I love it!

It wasn't his intention to kill those crew members. Just as it's never the intention to kill civilians in war yet it is understood that in every war civilians will be killed accidentally.

And if Ben did order the killing of Rousseau and Carl, which I believe he did or at the very least the Others did it without his knowledge, than he must have deemed them "not innocent" as well.

[justjoe]

But ben ordered the engines to be disabled. He knew what would happen if the boat just drifted.

[steelersrule]

More evidence for us "Ben is the good guy" folks in this episode. I'm sure I don't need to recap the scene since we probably all just saw it, but Ben essentially told Michael that he could not kill everyone on the freighter because some of its crew members were innocent, and that while he is willing to do almost anything for his cause, he will not kill innocent people. I think this is yet another important, yet subtle, l clue that the writers are giving us indicating that Ben will be revealed as a man with good intentions and ultimately as "the good guy"

Think about it: at this point in the show it seems as if the two opposing forces are Ben and Charles Widmore, with the various Oceanic survivors somewhere in between (and quite confused). Which one is more evil? On the one hand, Ben has played the role of "villain" since his introduction on the show and yet the writers have clearly tried to portray him in a very ambiguous light despite this. His motives are consistently mysterious, and as I've said before, could be seen as justified given the correct motive. On the other hand, Charles Widmore is the epitome of evil. Since his introduction, he's been a complete ass and for no good reason. He shut down Desmond, a good guy with noble intentions, simply because of his social class and he is so much of an ass that he won't even turn off the faucet in a public restroom! :D

Also, it seems like in the sneak peak of the next episode (in a month :mad:) Ben and the crash survivors are defending the island from Widmore's freighter crew together. Thoughts?

I am still not positive Ben is a good guy. He may have not killed anyone with his hands, but do you remember what he did to his dad (who I agree wasn't a good person), but he still did it. Plus, he released the gas to kill the people in the colony last season (or knew it would be released). And no he didn't tell Michael to kill, but he wasn't against it. By the way, he did try to encourage Locke to kill his dad. Think about it Manson didn't kill many with his hands, but he had no problem convincing others to do so.

[thelawgiver]

Ben is the most dangerous sort of person there can be, one that is so righteous that the end justifies the means. I think there can be no debate that Ben truly believes he is the "good guy" who is protecting the island from disclosure and harm. So kidnapping, manipulation, hostage taking, torture, genocide (of Dharma), multiple murders, all justify that goal. But this is all morally bad, bad, bad.

[steelersrule]

It wasn't his intention to kill those crew members. Just as it's never the intention to kill civilians in war yet it is understood that in every war civilians will be killed accidentally.

And if Ben did order the killing of Rousseau and Carl, which I believe he did or at the very least the Others did it without his knowledge, than he must have deemed them "not innocent" as well.

Does anyone, other than me, think that it's weird that Ben has the final word on who is innocent and who isn't? It doesn't matter if he has deemed someone guilty therefore they would be better off dead. Why is he the one who gets to make this distinction? Let's be honest if we were to get to make this distinction most would find him bad.

[Yummy Yoghurt]

He is not a good idea. He stole kids from the islanders, did what he did to Michael, lied to Jack and company, he has killed people or got others to kill people. He has ordered people to be killed as well and was also part of the mass cull on the island to kill the dharma folk.

How can he be one of the good guys? He also sent Alex, Danielle and Alex's boyfriend on a route where they got killed. Some may say, well no, it was somebody else who killed them but I don't think that is the case. We saw what he did with Juliette and how he has behaved towards kids as well.

He has done almost everything wrong and almost things prone to evil. He wants to harness the power of the island for himself and he obviously has a lot more money and resources than we know of.

I can't ever agree he is one of the good guys after all that we have seen him do. Justification for his actions is completely twisted logic because you have to justify beatings, killings, torture, hangings etc etc etc.

I think people just fall for his charm. He's an alpha male and people are drawn towards alpha males.

[Yummy Yoghurt]

Does anyone, other than me, think that it's weird that Ben has the final word on who is innocent and who isn't? It doesn't matter if he has deemed someone guilty therefore they would be better off dead. Why is he the one who gets to make this distinction? Let's be honest if we were to get to make this distinction most would find him bad.

This is why people admire him and see him as "good" because we create our moral compass at times via power because we feel via those with power we will survive.

He has done enough to highlight he is bad.

[lostNspace]

Last night I almost started to see Ben as a good character. Then I thought back. Who has he met that he has not used for his own selfish means?
He is just a sick man with Mommy/Daddy issues. He thinks if I save the pregnant women I will save my Mom. Looking for the flash forward where he is running a motel and his mother is sit in the window in the house on the hill. It is going to take a lot more before he wins my trust back.

[ortrules]

Ben is the most dangerous sort of person there can be, one that is so righteous that the end justifies the means. I think there can be no debate that Ben truly believes he is the "good guy" who is protecting the island from disclosure and harm. So kidnapping, manipulation, hostage taking, torture, genocide (of Dharma), multiple murders, all justify that goal. But this is all morally bad, bad, bad.
I think you've got it. There is a really big difference between what Ben thinks and what everyone else thinks. Ben considers himself the "good guy" but in no way, shape, or form does that make him the good guy. Ben is a "good guy" in the same sense that terrorist bombers believe they are the "good guys"

Plus, not to mention that if Ben were truly a "good guy" he would have told the crash survivors all the information he knows instead of kidnapping them at night and leaving them all in the dark about the island. When he told Michael that he had to show him that not everyone on the freighter was a bad guy and set up Michael with the fake bomb, I thought, well why not just tell Michael they aren't all bad guys and that he needs to get this information on everyone BEFORE he accepted the mission. I think Michael would have been much more comfortable with things had Ben just explained it to him in advance.

[passenger57]

What would put him on the same level as Hitler? My theory that Ben is good is based on the fact that IF the writers were to tell us right now that Ben had the power to save humanity and that's what he's been fighting for, EVERYTHING he has done thus far would have been understandable.

Whenever I bring up this idea people consistently say that Ben is a ruthless killer who has committed inexusable acts of evil, but what are these acts? Ben's father abused him and was a cold, heartless man. Ben killed him and the Dharma Initiative members, who have been presented as manipulative and twisted and certainly not innocent, in order to achieve what was, in his mind, the greater good. The whole question of whether Ben is good or bad isn't a matter of whether or not Ben kills people simply for the sake of being evil. No one can support that claim. Instead, it's whether or not Ben's motive is a good one or a bad one, and if it's a good one than all of the seemingly evil actions that he's committed would be justified.


I am not a Ben fan, but it appears most are Fans of Kate, who killed her step dad for abusing her mother...whay woull this be excusable, everyone's personal hell is still personal hell, who gets to decide if what Bens dad did to him was less than what Kate's Step Dad did....I cannot make a descision on Ben yet...but regardless of the laundry list of unforgivable crimes...wouldn't Ben and kate be on the same level....

[thelawgiver]

Kate is also morally wrong with an ends justify the means view. Besides step daddy, there are others in her wake of destruction while she was on the lamb. However, her few transgressions are minute when stacked against Ben's activities. Is Widmore a bad guy because he's trying to find the island? As far as we know, he has not killed or had someone killed yet.

[Lostaddict]

I would take a lot of convincing for me to apply the word "good" to Ben. Ben is BAAAAAAAAAD, and the Hitler comparison is perfect. Hitler has been referred to as a strategical genious, but that does not exonerate him from the evil he did "for the great good, and ethnic cleansing." People followed him and worshipped him, and looked the other way and Hitler was Evil. Saddam Hussein did very similar things in Irac. Under his regeim the Irakian people found peace, but on top of the buried bodies who did not conform. Sound familair?

[falconb]

The question if Ben is good or bad is RELATIVE. This is the same with the Losties, the Others, the Talies, the Freighties, Ben's Side, Widmore's Side, Jack's Camp, Locke's Camp, the Dharmans, the Hostiles, etc. In the world of Lost, there is no ABSOLUTE enemy, yesterday's good might be tomorrow's evil.

[Barbecue_Bod]

Ben is an evil little twisted up toe rag imo
:p

[robert]

GOOD? GOOD? ARE YOU CRAZY? Good and Ben cannot be words in the same sentence. Ben may be doing what he is to protect the island or himself, but he has been anything but GOOD! He has tortured and hurt many people who didn't deserve it. He is horrible and disgusting and self serving no matter how "noble" his cause really is.

[papatini]

I think Ben is totally rotten. A true psycopath. I think he probably doesn't want everyone on the boat offed is because he most likely has more than Mikey working for him. You think he was choosing innocents when he commited mass murders and created mass graves? Sorry thats Sadaam, Hitler, Stalin, and Jonestown kind of action. Its called Genocide. Ben would kill anyone at anytime to save himself, Jacob, and the island. Even the flash forwards of him show him to continue murdering folks as he blackmails Sayid. So just where does this good Ben come along???!!??

[gingergrant]

eeek! Godwin's Law!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

[lostNspace]

eeek! Godwin's Law!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Wow! At a loss for words.

[boulderheart1]

yes i have been siding with ben since the last episode of serries 3, he is the better of 2 evil's but we need to be careful i am sure theres going to be a twist on this issue on the last episode of the season

[Turnip Queen]

HAHAHAHA I DO like to believe Ben is a good guy at the back of it all, but at the same time he's SO manipulative you'd never be able to believe a word out of his mouth, so much so that you'd be wondering is he saying all this to make Michael believe that he cares about the innocent etc. What gets me more is WHY would Widmore want to kill everyone on the island?

[wvugurl]

I do not know if Widmore really wants to kill everyone on the island..that is what Ben believes..But Ben does not want anyone to find the island...so we really do not know who to believe about the freightor/island/rescue....

ben is playing a good guy card cause he wants the losties to help him "save" the island

[ladybuggfly]

Ben is not to b trusted. He is manipulative and conniving. Ben is only about self and don’t care about anyone else. He is a spoiled little child that throws hissy fits and tantrums. Wasn’t he the one ho shot Locke and left him for dead in a ditch? Aren’t the survivors innocent of the island? And didn’t Ben send the guy to pretend to be a survivor because he know and hoped they would find out his true identity and kill him. Ben is far from a good guy.

[Yummy Yoghurt]

eeek! Godwin's Law!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

That's hilarious.

[Rain13]

Thanks for bringing up Kate, Passenger57, I had never made that connection. While I think it's safe to say that all of us condemn Kate's actions that put the lives of other people in danger and obviously the act of murder itself, few of us would send her to jail if we were given the chance. She did commit murder, and she should legally be jailed. However, since we've come to know Kate as a truly good person, most of us would call for her to not be punished. Conversely, you have the US Marshall. This man never did anything evil and was in fact simply working to catch someone who he, and society, deemed to be a dangerous criminal. However, we almost universally hated him and even considered him to be a villain despite him having never done anything outright evil. Sure he was a jerk to Kate, but she was a murderer, and he was the good guy. His actions were those of a morally good character, and yet I'm sure I'm not alone in confessing that I took some pleasure out of seeing him finally killed off the island. This just goes to show the ability of narrative (in this case in the form of a TV show) to manipulate the way we view characters. Of course we rationally know that the US Marshall was "the good guy" and Kate was "the bad guy", but if you were rooting for the US Marshall over Kate, we'd all say you must be a cold-hearted bastard! :D

With that said, we simply must address the parallels between Kate's actions and Ben's. For the sake of argument, let us focus solely on Ben's act of killing his father and leave the murder of the Dharma Initiative out of this for now, since people are bringing up the former act independent of the latter as an example of why Ben is evil. We know that Ben's father was an evil man, and he probably was just as abusive and horrible as Kate's father was. Why, than, do we consider Ben to be a heartless murderer for killing his father, but Kate to be a good person who simply made a poor decision? The answer is that this is the way the writers want us to think. During the scenes where Kate killed her father, we were made to feel sympathy for her position. The script, soundtrack, and acting was done in such a way that Kate would be presented as being "the good guy". The fact that her father was a real jerk was emphasized, and she was made to look innocent and sweet. When Ben killed his father, however, it was made to look more ambiguous. There were no sympathetic violins, only cold silence. Think about how easy it was for the writers to villify the US Marshall and to get us to hate him even though he had never even done anything evil. This same method is used frequently with Ben, where he commits acts that we condemn as evil because we assume that he has evil motives, and not good ones as he claims.

Therefore, my point has always simply been the following: If we were to be informed that Ben did have "good" motives and was a "good" person, just like we were with Kate, we would be willing to both look past the actions he's committed in the past and to view him as a good character.

The writers are messing with us in terms of morality and the relativity of good and evil. They have consistently played with this concept throughout the entire show. Think about it: after the first crew of Oceanic survivors were introduced in the first episode, nearly every single character that we've been introduced to was first presented as a villain. The tail survivors, Desmond, Juliet, etc. We initially feared these people and were convinced that they were evil. The writers accomplished this by presenting them as saying and doing what we perceived as "evil" things, and playing scary music and keeping their faces dark. However, once the writers introduced them to us, we came to realize that they were "the good guys" too. Look at Desmond in the first episode of Season 2 and tell me that you didn't think he was an evil guy when you first saw it! Likewise, Ben was first introduced to us as a murderous maniac who was downright evil, and this persona has been maintained because of the way he's been continually presented to us. As we're getting to know more about the island and are being presented with these new situations, however, it seems more and more as if we're being set up to hear that Ben is a good guy too.

[JohnQ]

Ben shot Locke. Locke had Ben tied up then encarcerated. Now Ben roams free in the
compound. And now possibly Ben had Karl and Dannielle shot and killed(?) so a possibly
pregnant Alex is left in total fear. Ben is not a good person, sorry.

[ortrules]

Rain, how can you even begin to compare Ben and Kate? Yes, Kate killed her father and is still viewed as a good person. Ben, on the other hand, killed his father, all of Dharma, manipulates everyone, blah blah, yada yada. The big difference is that Kate has redeeming qualities while Ben has absolutely none.

[stream]

There ya go, lack of redeeming qualities says it all short and sweet, and yet look at what a good manipulator he is, not only has he gotten to just about everyone on the Island, he has got to half of the audience too. You guys can try and justify all day on 14 more pages but he's got you if you do, can't be a good guy any way shape or form! Mansonesque yeah, Hitlerish even. Bad. See through it PEOPLE!!

[gingergrant]

Rain13, well said!
I believe that Ben is made to look bad for a reason by the writers. We know that he did horrible things, but tell me that Sawyer doesn't feel happy about Ben's letting him finally kill the guy who caused his father and mother's death. Ben is definitely good in some people's books.

[jackchick]

Interesting you say that, because I know that a majority of our nation would say that someone who is a murderer, a kidnapper, a manipulator, and a liar can in fact be good. When you are at war, you are permitted to do these things to the enemy in order to achieve the greater good. Our soldiers kill enemy soldiers, take prisoners against their will, and manipulate and lie in order to outwit the enemy. We praise our soldiers for going overseas and "fighting for our cause", and yet this is what they're really doing over there...nobody denies this.

Now, please don't take this as some anti-war rant, because it's not. I'm merely trying to point out that when somebody's motives are seen as just, they are permitted to commit acts that would otherwise be seen as wrong. Is killing an enemy soldier not murder? Is taking an enemy prisoner not kidnap? Is deceiving enemy generals not lying and manipulating? This is what these acts truly are, and yet when we believe that they are committed in the interest of preserving our safety and future, we no longer consider them evil.

I'll say it one more time: if it were to be revealed that Ben was fighting to save the human race and that the people he killed were not innocent, he would be a good guy just like many people view our soldiers who have committed many of the same acts of murder and deceit that he has.

I am unable to read thru the 9 pages without a pause here. Situational ethics I'm not usually a fan of. But you cannot compare sociatial actions and personal. Actions that are done as a society like being in a war conflict is not the same as personal. Personal threat verses personal I don't like this situation. Many people come from brutal childhood experiences but it is not ethical to harm another ie. murder someone else, for the sake of your bad experience on a personal level. As a society, as a nation, we do not act on a personal level.

[jackchick]

Kate's mom was threatened with bodily harm. She was a battered woman. Kate didn't kill for what was a perceived greater good but to prohibit her mom from being hurt/killed. The one killed was the one directly guilty of the actions.

Ben says, "the names on the list, who are we to question whose on and whose not." Yet, Ben got ahold of Jack to perform surgery. He tricked Juliet into coming and lied to keep her there and blackmailed her with not treating her sister. The sister did no harm. Sawyer and Kate were there to force Jack. An imprisonment and beatings were on the menu as long as he got what he wanted. No relationship of actions suited to a danger. It was about him. Taking Juliet out to Goodwin's body because, "your mine." is not for a greater good than self. Telling Mikael to kill the sub gals just because you shouldn't question orders because then you have to question all the other orders...

There may be a "greater good" but that isn't Ben's one driving goal. Killing all Dharma contradicts that idea of protecing "innocents." It's been said over and over, it's control and manipulation. Holding onto power. Hey, there was a plane crash let's go see if we can help. Not good storytelling but it's how morales dictates.

[agmic]

this is what I've been saying, Ben is good....

[ortrules]

but tell me that Sawyer doesn't feel happy about Ben's letting him finally kill the guy who caused his father and mother's death. Ben is definitely good in some people's books.
Ben didn't let Sawyer kill Locke's dad (Sawyer). Richard went behind Ben's back to tell Locke that Sawyer would help Locke kill his dad because of their history.

Plus, after killing the guy, Sawyer really didn't look too happy.

[Yummy Yoghurt]

this is what I've been saying, Ben is good....

In the wonderful world where mass murder, mass entrapment and mass abduction are acceptable and legal and morally viable.

[IrishDancinQueen]

I posted this on another thread:

I think Ben believes that he is good. In his mind he is working for the greater good--saving the island. It all depends on how you define "goodness". Is it better to kill a few to save many or try to save those you care about even though many more will suffer and die...I think in Ben's mind the ends justify the means.

I, personally, would disagree, but it does bring up some interesting arguments on the nature of good and evil...

I would tend to believe that Ben is a classic Antisocial personality who does not care for people except for how they can be useful to him. Even those he does seem to care about--Alex, Juliette--he sees as possessions rather than human beings with their own self-worth.

[cheapshot11b]

Ben didn't let Sawyer kill Locke's dad (Sawyer). Richard went behind Ben's back to tell Locke that Sawyer would help Locke kill his dad because of their history.

Plus, after killing the guy, Sawyer really didn't look too happy.

Sawyer has been totally different since killing Lockes dad.
I mean, no nicknames for everyone...to start. He seems alot diff.

[cheapshot11b]

this is what I've been saying, Ben is good....

if by "good" you mean bad, then i agree with you.

[cheapshot11b]

Comparing Ben with hitler, manson, satan, ok maybe that's not fair, there is alot we don't know yet about Ben. I would like to compare Bens' character with ARVIN SLOAN. Has anyone watched ALIAS? I see many parallels with what the writers are doing here. I know they are different, but JJ Abrams was involved with ALIAS too.

SLoan got what he deserved- punishment worse than death.
I hope Ben has the same thing coming his way. He can't escape and evade 4ever.

I would really recommend watching the series of alias between Seasons of Lost if you have the time.

[agmic]

if by "good" you mean bad, then i agree with you.

no I mean good as in Good....:)

[cheapshot11b]

I posted this on another thread:

I think Ben believes that he is good. In his mind he is working for the greater good--saving the island. It all depends on how you define "goodness". Is it better to kill a few to save many or try to save those you care about even though many more will suffer and die...I think in Ben's mind the ends justify the means.

I, personally, would disagree, but it does bring up some interesting arguments on the nature of good and evil...

I would tend to believe that Ben is a classic Antisocial personality who does not care for people except for how they can be useful to him. Even those he does seem to care about--Alex, Juliette--he sees as possessions rather than human beings with their own self-worth.

I agree IDQ, your high-ness

[boutte]

I posted this on another thread:

I think Ben believes that he is good. In his mind he is working for the greater good--saving the island. It all depends on how you define "goodness". Is it better to kill a few to save many or try to save those you care about even though many more will suffer and die...I think in Ben's mind the ends justify the means.

I, personally, would disagree, but it does bring up some interesting arguments on the nature of good and evil...

I would tend to believe that Ben is a classic Antisocial personality who does not care for people except for how they can be useful to him. Even those he does seem to care about--Alex, Juliette--he sees as possessions rather than human beings with their own self-worth.
Yeah, what she said.

[dudebro28]

i think ben is good but does bad things. he is socially chalenged. he has lived his entire life as a leader in a place with no laws. Now the things that everyone has said previous to this post has been in that he was at war in a way, save for the Dharma innitiative, but we dont know exactly why [U]he[U] killed them. but one thing that was pure evil was choosing goodwin to go to the tailes camp. he knew he would die just so he could have juliet

[Eko]

Interesting you say that, because I know that a majority of our nation would say that someone who is a murderer, a kidnapper, a manipulator, and a liar can in fact be good. When you are at war, you are permitted to do these things to the enemy in order to achieve the greater good. Our soldiers kill enemy soldiers, take prisoners against their will, and manipulate and lie in order to outwit the enemy. We praise our soldiers for going overseas and "fighting for our cause", and yet this is what they're really doing over there...nobody denies this.

Now, please don't take this as some anti-war rant, because it's not. I'm merely trying to point out that when somebody's motives are seen as just, they are permitted to commit acts that would otherwise be seen as wrong. Is killing an enemy soldier not murder? Is taking an enemy prisoner not kidnap? Is deceiving enemy generals not lying and manipulating? This is what these acts truly are, and yet when we believe that they are committed in the interest of preserving our safety and future, we no longer consider them evil.

I'll say it one more time: if it were to be revealed that Ben was fighting to save the human race and that the people he killed were not innocent, he would be a good guy just like many people view our soldiers who have committed many of the same acts of murder and deceit that he has.
I completely agree with everything you said if it was proven that ben was fighting to save humanity then his actions would be completely justified this isn't iraq or any other real life situation this is a tv show and i think some people took your comments way out of context

[Missie]

Sorry but Ben is mentaly ill......he is not good

[skatertsol]

Sorry but Ben is mentaly ill......he is not good
I know people that are mentally ill but still good people!!! I think Ben feels like the protector of the island, has the "For the good of all" mentality. In situations, perhaps that is necessary, although as it is obvious in this thread alone everyone's version of "good" is subject to interpretation. I think Ben thinks he is doing good, and it's obvious some people think so too (Remember the chick can't think of her name that got kidnapped by the others but now is totally a part of their lifestyle-she seemed genuinely convinced!) I think Lost's greatest mystery isn't how they get off the island, what the smoke monster is, who Jacob is, etc. but what Ben ends up being...Good or Bad....because I believe the rest of the mysteries will unravel themselves from there.

[Missie]

I think Ben is one of the greatest Villians of all time. He gives me the creeps. He is so manipulative. He mentally ill in a crazy serail killer way. I wouldnt want to be anywhere near him.

[bunnydixon]

most serial killers are perfectly sane.

:p

[Lostfan1]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
That is funny
BEN IS GOOD
HAHAHAHA
where do you get your material b/c u r hilarious
Ha
:D:D:D:D
Wow i have to use that one
BEN IS GOOD
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaAAAAAAAAAAA
That never gets old
ROFL
*wipes eye with tisue*
lol
BEN..........GOOD
AAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

[Fearsn]

Is killing an enemy soldier not murder? Is taking an enemy prisoner not kidnap? Is deceiving enemy generals not lying and manipulating?

Actually, No, killing enemy soldiers is not murder. Murder is the UNLAWFUL killing of a person with malice.

And detaining an enemy soldier is not even close to kidnap. Prisoners of War are there to take away the enemies resource so they can not be used against you. After the war is over, they are released unless they committed a war crime.

As far as whether I think ben is good or evil, I guess there is just too much info that is left out to make an accurate judgement. What was Darma Initiative doing? Were they doing something that would have caused great harm to others? We just dont know. However, I think ben did what he did for his own personnal gain.

[Snape]

I know people that are mentally ill but still good people!!! I think Ben feels like the protector of the island, has the "For the good of all" mentality. In situations, perhaps that is necessary, although as it is obvious in this thread alone everyone's version of "good" is subject to interpretation. I think Ben thinks he is doing good, and it's obvious some people think so too (Remember the chick can't think of her name that got kidnapped by the others but now is totally a part of their lifestyle-she seemed genuinely convinced!) I think Lost's greatest mystery isn't how they get off the island, what the smoke monster is, who Jacob is, etc. but what Ben ends up being...Good or Bad....because I believe the rest of the mysteries will unravel themselves from there.

That girl's name is Cindy (she was the flight attendant).

[cheapshot11b]

quick recap from my POV

****people who think Ben is GOOD are hoping he has a good reason for his actions. Will you be surprised if he's just a douche?

****people who think he's BAD are looking at his action apart from his intentions. Even if he has a reason, he's still a douchebag.

[skatertsol]

quick recap from my POV

****people who think Ben is GOOD are hoping he has a good reason for his actions. Will you be surprised if he's just a douche?

****people who think he's BAD are looking at his action apart from his intentions. Even if he has a reason, he's still a douchebag.
So....What you are really saying...if I'm reading this correctly, through my "insightful lenses" is that.....Ben's a douchebag....lol

[sj256]

So....What you are really saying...if I'm reading this correctly, through my "insightful lenses" is that.....Ben's a douchebag....lol

Whatever would lead you to say such a thing? hahaha

[cheapshot11b]

So....What you are really saying...if I'm reading this correctly, through my "insightful lenses" is that.....Ben's a douchebag....lol

your close examination is correct.:D:D:D