Charlie

[Anton]

who here hates the way charlie died? it was soooo lame! not to mention he was my second favorite actor in the hole series!

[cheapshot11b]

Why couldn't he just run out of the room before the water filled in. Even if he let some water into the station, he and Des could have somehow escaped alive.

I thought it was dumb to shut the door while still inside.

Maybe Desmond had him convinced he had to die.

[Hurley's Left Sock]

Why couldn't he just run out of the room before the water filled in. Even if he let some water into the station, he and Des could have somehow escaped alive.

I thought it was dumb to shut the door while still inside.

Maybe Desmond had him convinced he had to die.

Yes, Desmond did convince him he had to die.
Des had one of his premonitions in which both Charlie died and Claire & baby Aaron were airlifted off the island. Desmond knew from past experience that if one part of the scenario changed then it would affect everything else (remember how he needed Charlie to go into the jungle with him to rescue the person he thought was Penny. He was even considering letting Charlie die to ensure this)

They both knew that if Charlie didn't die then it could affect Claire and Aaron's chances of being rescued. Charlie took the decision to sacrifice his own life to help them. He probably could have saved himself, but he didn't want to risk altering the outcome.

[ortrules]

Desmond told Charlie he needed to die in order to save Claire. Charlie came to terms with that and made the sacrifice so that Claire could live.

This is from the extended episode:

"As the water rushes in Charlie knows he's met his fate. He's sacrificed himself to save his friends and the woman he loves."

[rip-charlie]

yeah i think it's wrong the way he died and to think about it was for nothing because claire don't have aaron something happeans to her. i hate how Charlies end came.

[Anton]

I just wish they had a better way to bring him to his end, he was a great player in the grand scheme of thing's. He DESERVED a better end!

[Turnip Queen]

Ooh this is weird, I just talked about this one second ago in Hollie's thread! I think as a death, Charlie got the most emotional one, it definitely made me cry, and for that, it was a good end. But at least we still get to see him in season 4, even if he is dead!

[cheapshot11b]

Charlie could have made it out alive. Just take 2 steps out the door.

[ortrules]

Charlie could have made it out alive. Just take 2 steps out the door.

Yes, but according to Desmond, if Charlie did this and died he would be saving everyone else. So instead of saving himself, he accepted his fate in the belief he was saving Claire and Aaron and everyone else.

After all, if Charlie didn't die there, he just would have died at some other point. So if you're going to die, you might as well do it in an attempt to save your friends.

[cheapshot11b]

yes it's noble to save your friends,

but he accomplished the mission when he decoded the Beach Boys song. Isn't that what saved the losties? His death was not a sacrifice. Just because Desmond said so???

He could have unjammed the signal, Got Penny's message, and then scurried out the door. At least you live to fight another day. I know what your saying ORTRULES , he accepted his fate...

[ortrules]

but he accomplished the mission when he decoded the Beach Boys song. Isn't that what saved the losties? His death was not a sacrifice. Just because Desmond said so???
Well, Desmond's vision was something like "Charlie pushes a button, there's a blinking light, and then he dies" and by doing that, Claire and Aaron get on a helicopter. This was, of course, after Desmond had successfully saved Charlie from dying 3 or 4 times.

So when Charlie found out someone had to go underwater, he knew that's what he had to do...and part of going underwater was to die. So from Desmond's vision and what he says, Charlie figured he had to do this to save his friends so they could get on the helicopter.

And after Desmond successfully predicts and saves your life as he did, you would probably believe him when he says your death will save people.

[Hurley's Left Sock]

It might have been enough, but he couldn't be sure.
As I mentioned in the previous post, for Desmond's visions to come true then everything has to go as planned. In this particular vision, Desmond saw three important things of note :-

1) Charlie deactivating the jamming device in the Looking Glass station
2) Charlie drowning in the Looking Glass station
3) Claire and Aaron being rescued by helicopter off the island

To be absolutely sure that it ended as Desmond saw it, everything else he saw also had to happen. In other words, if Charlie had turned off the device, heard Penny's message and then escaped then he couldn't be sure that Claire and the baby would be rescued because he would have altered the events in Desmond's dream.

Desmond is in a similar dillema when he has a vision of what he thinks is Penny landing on the island. He also sees Charlie dying in the jungle from one of Rousseau's traps. He knows that if Charlie doesn't die like this then it could alter events so that he doesn't find Penny. This is why he almost allows Charlie to die. He decides he can't go through with it at the last second and saves Charlie, altering the events in his vision. It's possible it did effect the outcome because he ends up finding Naomi instead of Penny.

So, in short - the only way Charlie can be sure that Claire and Aaron will be rescued is if everything happens the way that Desmond saw in his vision.
Unfortunately for Charlie, this includes his death. He chooses their welfare over his own.

[ai2301]

who here hates the way charlie died? it was soooo lame!

I agree 100%. A grenade would have been much better- it would have reduced the number of "Charlie is alive" threads by 90%. ;-)
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[ai2301]

IMO there's a lot more to it than Charlie just getting the thing working.

Lots of possibilties to look at:

Had he been in such a hurry and gotten out alive, would he have seen Penny pop up on the screen? If not the Losties wouldn't have had a warning about it not being Penny's boat.

If that would not have happened, would Desmond would have gotten on the freighter? If not, he wouldn't have gone through the electro stuff when he did and wouldn't have gone 'back in time' therefore he might not have become Daniel's constant, or wouldn't have called Penny- what implications does that have on things?

Of course we might be looking way too far into little things, but IMO it's too soon to say that Charlie died for nothing.
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[rip-charlie]

yes it's noble to save your friends,

but he accomplished the mission when he decoded the Beach Boys song. Isn't that what saved the losties? His death was not a sacrifice. Just because Desmond said so???

He could have unjammed the signal, Got Penny's message, and then scurried out the door. At least you live to fight another day. I know what your saying ORTRULES , he accepted his fate...

i still think i'm getting ripped off in this whole charlie thing. i mean he thought he was saving Claire and Aaron Desmond said they both get off the island and we know that is not true what is to say after he unjammed the signal desmonds visions could have changed. you know what i mean? i don't know but i think charlie died thinking he was saving the one he loved as we have seen in past shows Charlie was trying to take care of someone.that is all i have to say

[rip-charlie]

I agree 100%. A grenade would have been much better- it would have reduced the number of "Charlie is alive" threads by 90%. ;-)

LOL true but some of the TRUE CHARLIE FANS would still have hope! :)

[rip-charlie]

It might have been enough, but he couldn't be sure.
As I mentioned in the previous post, for Desmond's visions to come true then everything has to go as planned. In this particular vision, Desmond saw three important things of note :-

1) Charlie deactivating the jamming device in the Looking Glass station
2) Charlie drowning in the Looking Glass station
3) Claire and Aaron being rescued by helicopter off the island

To be absolutely sure that it ended as Desmond saw it, everything else he saw also had to happen. In other words, if Charlie had turned off the device, heard Penny's message and then escaped then he couldn't be sure that Claire and the baby would be rescued because he would have altered the events in Desmond's dream.

Desmond is in a similar dillema when he has a vision of what he thinks is Penny landing on the island. He also sees Charlie dying in the jungle from one of Rousseau's traps. He knows that if Charlie doesn't die like this then it could alter events so that he doesn't find Penny. This is why he almost allows Charlie to die. He decides he can't go through with it at the last second and saves Charlie, altering the events in his vision. It's possible it did effect the outcome because he ends up finding Naomi instead of Penny.

So, in short - the only way Charlie can be sure that Claire and Aaron will be rescued is if everything happens the way that Desmond saw in his vision.
Unfortunately for Charlie, this includes his death. He chooses their welfare over his own.

wait everything in Desmonds Vision did not happean like it should have so changing things right? I don't think Charlie was to get the message from Penny right Desmond knew nothing about that am i wrong?

[Hurley's Left Sock]

wait everything in Desmonds Vision did not happean like it should have so changing things right?
I'm not sure I follow you. Which bits didn't happen as Desmond saw it?

I don't think Charlie was to get the message from Penny right Desmond knew nothing about that am i wrong?
I'm sure you are right about Desmond being unaware of Penny's message, but I think your conclusion that Charlie wasn't supposed to get it is wrong ;)

I'm pretty sure I remember Desmond explaining that he doesn't see everything in his visions. He just sees "flashes" or "snapshots" of what is going to happen. It's not that Penny's message was an alteration from Desmond's vision, it was just something that he didn't forsee.

Neither Desmond nor anyone else can willfully change the events that Desmond doesn't forsee (ie. Penny's message) as they are not aware of what is supposed to happen in regards to them in the first place. They can only affect the things they have foreknowledge of - either changing them to prevent an undesirable outcome (ie. the various occasions where Desmond does something to prevent Charlie being killed) or making sure that they remain unchanged & true to the vision so as to ensure a desired outcome (ie. Charlie going so far as to accept his own death to get Claire and baby off the island)

It should be said that we don't know for sure that being true to the events in the vision will result in the desired outcome, but that is certainly what Desmond appears to believe and Charlie takes it on faith from Desmond.

On the point about it not being true as Claire and Aaron seem not to get to safety afterall, I don't think we can say that yet.
Although both Desmond and Charlie believe that is what the vision is telling them, that's not strictly true. All Desmond actually sees is Claire and Aaron boarding a helicopter. Nothing more. That still might happen. But it doesn't necessarily mean they will end up being getting safely home. That's only Des and Charlie's (possibly mistaken) assumption.