negative matter, multiple dimensions, parallel universes.

[islander]

Reading the threads on negative matter, which the donkey wheel seemed to relate to, and the 4th dimension mentioned in the orchid video made me wonder if locke didn't move the island in time per se, but he moved the island to another dimension - is that possible?

[beachblinkette]

Was Hurley playing Connect 4 supposed to be a hint about the 4th dimension?When you look at the hypercube, all 4 dimensions are "connected."

[notsolost42]

Was Hurley playing Connect 4 supposed to be a hint about the 4th dimension?When you look at the hypercube, all 4 dimensions are "connected."

I'm gonna say YES on both statements here!!! Yes to the island moving dimensionally and yes to the connect four clue!

There have been clues sprinkled everywhere and I am beginning to link them all together now that the closed timelike curve theory sounds very plausible. The clues I am finding are beginning to point to that exact idea and it is getting very exciting!

First of all, the book that was being read "A Brief History of Time" by Stephen Hawking.
Second, various journal entries in Daniel Faraday's book - go to Daniel's Journal on Lostpedia. There are several photos of entries.
Third, the blackboard in Daniel's office at Oxford had scientific notation on it -it is the Kerr Metric. Briefly, this is a real formula that permits closed, timelike loops in which a band of travellors returns to the same place after moving for a finite time by their own clock; however, they return to the same place and time as seen by an observer. This is of course, theory only, proven theory though.
Fourth, the first person that ever observed the possibility of the closed timelike curve was named....Willem JACOB van Stockum.
There is much more to explore....I am on a mission now!!!!

[ai2301]

This is of course, theory only, proven theory though.

Huh? A 'theory only' that's been proven?

[Zeb]

Reading the threads on negative matter, which the donkey wheel seemed to relate to, and the 4th dimension mentioned in the orchid video made me wonder if locke didn't move the island in time per se, but he moved the island to another dimension - is that possible?

I wouldn't say Ben moved the island TO another dimension so much as he moved it THROUGH another dimension (or several dimensions). The island clearly exists in a closed spacetime "bubble" of some kind that is connected to the much larger spacetime bubble that we call "the universe". The connection between the two is tangential, and can be altered. Thus, the island exists in the same three spatial dimensions that we perceive, but is separated from our universe by a fourth spatial dimension that we can't directly perceive. (There's clearly some weirdness with the time dimension too, but let's ignore that for the moment.)

Visualize it this way: imagine a ping-pong ball and a beach ball touching side-by-side; they only touch at a single point. We'll cut everything down by one spatial dimension to make it easier to see; thus, the 3-D universe we're familiar with is the two-dimensional surface of the beach ball. Now, the surface of the ball is curved in a third dimension, but when you're in the 2-D universe of the surface, you can't see the curvature, because it's outside of your perception. (You can prove its existence mathematically, though.) But when you move across the surface of the beach ball, there's a single point where you can transfer to the surface of the ping-pong ball. Suddenly, you're in a different universe! And it's also curved in a third dimension, but it curves away from the surface of the beach ball. Thus, two universes, connected at a single point.

Now, move the ping-pong ball away from the beach ball, and then back until they touch again, but to a different point. Nothing within the two-dimensional surface of the ping-pong ball has moved relative to anything else within that 2-D surface - if you're on the surface of the ping-pong ball, you can't tell that anything has happened. But the entire surface has moved through 3-D space, and now connects to the beach ball at a different point.

That's how it works with 2-D universes in 3-D space. We're dealing with an analagous situation: 3-D universes in 4-D space. The essential concepts are the same, but since you literally can't visualize four spatial dimensions, it's harder to grasp.

So whatever Ben did simply moved the attachment point between the island's mini-universe and our own universe. So it's a matter of perspective as to whether the island has "moved". Nobody on the island would be able to detect any motion, because it's all happening in dimensions we can't perceive. So whether "the island" has moved or the island's universe has moved is a matter of semantics only.

Add in the time dimension, and now you have five dimensions to deal with. Or maybe six, since the island's time dimension seems to be curved relative to our own time dimension. Or warped. Or corrugated. Something like that.

Ow, my head hurts. :confused:

[Zeb]

Huh? A 'theory only' that's been proven?

It's not quite as crazy as it sounds, actually. For some reason, the word "theory" has come in popular culture to mean a wild idea that some scientist dreamed up, that isn't proven. It's not necessarily so.

A "theory", in scientific usage, is simply an explanation - an answer to a particular question, if you like. Physicists go about formulating theories to explain the universe, and then they test those theories to see if they are correct. A good theory makes a prediction (a hypothesis) that can be tested. If the prediction turns out to match up with actual data, the theory is then "proven" - it's a correct answer to the question. If the prediction doesn't match up with observed data, then the theory is disproven - it's a wrong answer. Thus, theories can be proven by the evidence, or disproven.

Thus, when someone says that evolution (for example) is "only a theory", they are technically correct. It's a theory that fits the data pretty darned well, though, and is thus "proven" in the minds of most scientists.

[notsolost42]

Huh? A 'theory only' that's been proven?

Yep! A theory can be proven mathematically in physics but may not actually turn out that way in reality.

[islander]

Interesting comments above. I am leaning toward a move to another dimension as opposed to a "parallel" universe because, by definition, wouldn't the island have to exist in both universes if they were parallel? Also, Dan seems to have a pretty good idea what was going to happen, and he was adamant that everyone get off the island. If the purpose of the Orchid was to merely move the island in time and space in the current dimension, I don't think Dan would have been so worried so he must have known the move would be more dramatic than that, like to another dimension.

And the way Ben claims "everyone" must return has made me wonder if he's trying to return to a certain dimension at a certain point in the past where dimensions intersect and where everyone was on the island. So he has to have everyone who was on the island with him otherwise the dimensions wouldn't intersect. Of course, he could just be a psycho who is suckering the O6 into getting him back to the island by lying and manipulating them.

[notsolost42]

Interesting comments above. I am leaning toward a move to another dimension as opposed to a "parallel" universe because, by definition, wouldn't the island have to exist in both universes if they were parallel? Also, Dan seems to have a pretty good idea what was going to happen, and he was adamant that everyone get off the island. If the purpose of the Orchid was to merely move the island in time and space in the current dimension, I don't think Dan would have been so worried so he must have known the move would be more dramatic than that, like to another dimension.

And the way Ben claims "everyone" must return has made me wonder if he's trying to return to a certain dimension at a certain point in the past where dimensions intersect and where everyone was on the island. So he has to have everyone who was on the island with him otherwise the dimensions wouldn't intersect. Of course, he could just be a psycho who is suckering the O6 into getting him back to the island by lying and manipulating them.

Yes, but to me, a move in spacetime is a move in dimension. It's a 4th dimensional move. And I also agree with you as far as Ben's motive for everyone having to go back. Absolutely. He knows that they must intersect at a precise spacetime and all of his ducks must be in a row. It's like in the Orchid video when bunny #15 returned too soon. It returned when bunny #15 was there in that spacetime intersection. Not a good thing to happen! They would cancel each other out! POOF!!!! No more 06!!! All gone! No more Ben! Gone!!

[ortrules]

Don't know if anyone has seen this before, we discussed in another thread. But here is a theory about Lost being a video game:

http://www.lostisagame.com/playing.htm

We pretty much debunked it in the other discussion. But there was always one thing I loved about this theory, and it's the idea of a "reset button." That is to say, every character seems to continually reset to their original character during the show. For example, Jack's original character is a doctor. Through out the show he (and everyone else) changes roles but eventually when reset he goes back to being a doctor and everyone else goes back to their original role.

Anyway, you should read the section about Reset as it is rather interesting and I think may add to this conversation.

[Missie]

Don't know if anyone has seen this before, we discussed in another thread. But here is a theory about Lost being a video game:

http://www.lostisagame.com/playing.htm

We pretty much debunked it in the other discussion. But there was always one thing I loved about this theory, and it's the idea of a "reset button." That is to say, every character seems to continually reset to their original character during the show. For example, Jack's original character is a doctor. Through out the show he (and everyone else) changes roles but eventually when reset he goes back to being a doctor and everyone else goes back to their original role.

Anyway, you should read the section about Reset as it is rather interesting and I think may add to this conversation.


It was also debunked by the writers.

[notsolost42]

Ort, human nature will predict one to never change! I wouldn't say anyone is resetting! I think that while one may stray from their personna, they will come back to who they really are.

[ortrules]

Ort, human nature will predict one to never change! I wouldn't say anyone is resetting! I think that while one may stray from their personna, they will come back to who they really are.

Right. But as pointed out in the link I provided, they all "reset" to their original roles at the same time. It may be more than just straying from their persona.

[notsolost42]

Right. But as pointed out in the link I provided, they all "reset" to their original roles at the same time. It may be more than just straying from their persona.

Ort, are you saying that everyone on the island has "reset" at the same time? I am confused now.

[ortrules]

Ort, are you saying that everyone on the island has "reset" at the same time? I am confused now.

Yes. The link does a much better job of explaining it then I can. But because of the game theory they separate Lost into levels. Level 1 started in the first episode and ending at the season 1 finale where all characters have changed roles. When level 2 picks up in Season 2, every character within the first 2 or 3 episodes returns to their original role.

Again, I don't agree with the theory and levels, it's just interesting to see that every time a "reset" happens, every character seems to go back to their original role.

[notsolost42]

Yes. The link does a much better job of explaining it then I can. But because of the game theory they separate Lost into levels. Level 1 started in the first episode and ending at the season 1 finale where all characters have changed roles. When level 2 picks up in Season 2, every character within the first 2 or 3 episodes returns to their original role.

Again, I don't agree with the theory and levels, it's just interesting to see that every time a "reset" happens, every character seems to go back to their original role.

That is interesting! Hey, by the way. Did you ever get the chance to rewatch Season 3? To look for the scene we were talking about with the Hawking book?

[islander]

Yes, but to me, a move in spacetime is a move in dimension. It's a 4th dimensional move. And I also agree with you as far as Ben's motive for everyone having to go back. Absolutely. He knows that they must intersect at a precise spacetime and all of his ducks must be in a row. It's like in the Orchid video when bunny #15 returned too soon. It returned when bunny #15 was there in that spacetime intersection. Not a good thing to happen! They would cancel each other out! POOF!!!! No more 06!!! All gone! No more Ben! Gone!!

i agree and i think ben knows how to reverse-engineer the wormhole, or he knows there are points in time when the dimensions intersect which is when he'll try to jump to the island's dimension with the O6.

[islander]

It was also debunked by the writers.

i agree. it was a great theory that fit what was happening on the show but the writers debunked it....like the purgatory theory (my personal favorite).

[notsolost42]

i agree. it was a great theory that fit what was happening on the show but the writers debunked it....like the purgatory theory (my personal favorite).

First of all, I don't really believe anything the writers say. Second, why wouldn't they debunk a theory if it is right? They want the shows hype to continue. The way to continue it is to create questions, talking, speculation. If they said, "Yep! You guessed the plot! You're right!" two years before the shows finale they would have a real problem, don't you think?

I know that much of the science I have posted relating to the show is just science theory. Just because a physicist can hypothesize about a wormhole and even prove it mathematically doesn't mean it exits. It's all theory! Proven theory, but just theory!

[islander]

First of all, I don't really believe anything the writers say. Second, why wouldn't they debunk a theory if it is right? They want the shows hype to continue. The way to continue it is to create questions, talking, speculation. If they said, "Yep! You guessed the plot! You're right!" two years before the shows finale they would have a real problem, don't you think?

I know that much of the science I have posted relating to the show is just science theory. Just because a physicist can hypothesize about a wormhole and even prove it mathematically doesn't mean it exits. It's all theory! Proven theory, but just theory!

i hear you, and i always try to keep an open mind which is why i enjoy this forum so much - lots of creative thinkers contribute here.

i think the writers could have multiple possible endings in mind, just like they had multiple possible endings to last season's final episode. i take everything they say with a grain of salt, but i also feel the urge to look beyond the theories they have debunked - otherwise the purgatory or video game theory fit perfectly, and we can all go home.

i agree. i have argued often that the sci-fi part of the show can be based on theory or just creative ideas. i think they've already crossed the line on what is fact and what is theory or creative sci-fi ideas anyway which is fine with me.

[notsolost42]

i hear you, and i always try to keep an open mind which is why i enjoy this forum so much - lots of creative thinkers contribute here.

i think the writers could have multiple possible endings in mind, just like they had multiple possible endings to last season's final episode. i take everything they say with a grain of salt, but i also feel the urge to look beyond the theories they have debunked - otherwise the purgatory or video game theory fit perfectly, and we can all go home.

i agree. i have argued often that the sci-fi part of the show can be based on theory or just creative ideas. i think they've already crossed the line on what is fact and what is theory or creative sci-fi ideas anyway which is fine with me.

Very good points! I think though, that they had only one ending in mind and that was conceived from the beginning. At least, that's what they have said and I do believe that much. It will all come back to the Adam and Eve skeletons from the cave. They said that that will prove they knew the ending from the start! Go figure?

[ortrules]

Very good points! I think though, that they had only one ending in mind and that was conceived from the beginning. At least, that's what they have said and I do believe that much. It will all come back to the Adam and Eve skeletons from the cave. They said that that will prove they knew the ending from the start! Go figure?

Didn't you just say you don't agree with what the writers say? :p

But yes, supposedly they have always known the beginning and end of this show. In fact, there have been reports that now Matthew Fox knows how the show will end (likely due to his character importance). So I definitely agree that they are working toward that end - which is partly why Season 4 was so action packed and full of mythology episodes compared to Seasons 2 and 3.

[notsolost42]

Didn't you just say you don't agree with what the writers say? :p

But yes, supposedly they have always known the beginning and end of this show. In fact, there have been reports that now Matthew Fox knows how the show will end (likely due to his character importance). So I definitely agree that they are working toward that end - which is partly why Season 4 was so action packed and full of mythology episodes compared to Seasons 2 and 3.

That's about the only thing I would agree with that the writers have said. If they didn't have an ending in mind from the start and were unable to prove this to the viewers they would undoubtably loose credibility with the fans. Everything else they say, I take with a grain!!!!