Let's Put It All Together Now...

[notsolost42]

Okay, let's try to put all of the physics together now for the storyline! Here's my attempt:

1. The Crab Nebula has a rotating pulsar in its center causing the van Stockum Dust effect.
2. The van Stockum Dust is creating a Closed Timelike Curve, which goes from the Crab Nebula to the island and back again.
3. The Closed Timelike Curve bends at the exotic matter in the ice cave.
4. The exotic matter in the ice cave is a black body.
5. The black body must be kept cold or it will emit huge amounts of electromagnetic radiation, thus destroying the earth and closing the pathway back to the Crab Nebula.
6. The black body (exotic matter) when at a certain temperature will hold open the end of the Closed Timelike Curve on the island thereby opening the door for the return trip to the Crab Nebula.
7. Exposure to the electromagnetic radiation when turning the wheel in the ice caves pushes you through another pathway to the geographic opposite side of the earth from the island, Tunisia.
8. When the CTC is opened the island is thrusted unpredictibly through it and changes its position in spacetime dimension. That's why you can never go back. But since it is a closed curve the island will come back to the same place.

Okay. That's as far as I can get right now putting the pieces together to form a cohesive idea from the various physics lessons! Now you folks give it a shot!

[Jon]

Okay, let's try to put all of the physics together now for the storyline! Here's my attempt:

1. The Crab Nebula has a rotating pulsar in its center causing the van Stockum Dust effect.
2. The van Stockum Dust is creating a Closed Timelike Curve, which goes from the Crab Nebula to the island and back again.
3. The Closed Timelike Curve bends at the exotic matter in the ice cave.
4. The exotic matter in the ice cave is a black body.
5. The black body must be kept cold or it will emit huge amounts of electromagnetic radiation, thus destroying the earth and closing the pathway back to the Crab Nebula.
6. The black body (exotic matter) when at a certain temperature will hold open the end of the Closed Timelike Curve on the island thereby opening the door for the return trip to the Crab Nebula.
7. Exposure to the electromagnetic radiation when turning the wheel in the ice caves pushes you through another pathway to the geographic opposite side of the earth from the island, Tunisia.
8. When the CTC is opened the island is thrusted unpredictibly through it and changes its position in spacetime dimension. That's why you can never go back. But since it is a closed curve the island will come back to the same place.

Okay. That's as far as I can get right now putting the pieces together to form a cohesive idea from the various physics lessons! Now you folks give it a shot!

Thanks for posting, a lot of food for thought there!! :cool:

[notsolost42]

Thanks for posting, a lot of food for thought there!! :cool:

You're very welcome. Jon, you have provided me with much food for thought about alchemy on another thread! Get back to me on this though. I am open to ideas!!!! Also, yesterday I was emailing back and forth with a quantum physicist (a really cool guy) and he said my time travel ideas were spot on. He is also a Lost fan. He has a very interesting take on things as he has combined quantum physics and yoga and the metaphysical! Intense! I asked him if he was a contributor to the show because his background is so totally the ideas on the show! He said no, but he had hoped that they must be reading his books! I posted a link to his website. Check it out. Very cool site and very well done for the average person to understand and get into. I told him I wouldn't bug him anymore unless I had more real physics questions for him!!!

[lostNspace]

Just finished re-reading Hawking's A Brief History of Time. He talks about how when matter and anti-matter collide them annihilate each other. That got me thinking about bunny(s) #8 on the DAHRMA tape. What if that is the reason Ben (or charles widmore?) can't go back to the island. They would run the risk of running in to Anti- Ben or Anti-Charles.
So goes my crackpot theory for the day. If I have been nothing, I have been consistent. Consistently wrong, that is.:o

[notsolost42]

Just finished re-reading Hawking's A Brief History of Time. He talks about how when matter and anti-matter collide them annihilate each other. That got me thinking about bunny(s) #8 on the DAHRMA tape. What if that is the reason Ben (or charles widmore?) can't go back to the island. They would run the risk of running in to Anti- Ben or Anti-Charles.
So goes my crackpot theory for the day. If I have been nothing, I have been consistent. Consistently wrong, that is.:o

That is EXACTLY what freaked out our Dr. Haliwax, etc.! Didn't you love the book? I think that Ben, at least, has to wait for the island to catch up in spacetime. That's why he can't go back. I don't think that he's still on it in a different dimension. Same for Widmore, I guess. Oh God! I cannot bare the thought of two Ben's!!!!!!! Eeeeeeeekkkkkk!!!!!

[notsolost42]

Okay folks...I need a big pat on the back...remember this post? Remember what was mentioned in the new comic-con video by Dr. Hali/Candle/Mund Cheng? He mentioned the Kerr Metric, the Einstein Field Theory and a pinhole...

Read from Wiki about what I originally posted re van Stockum Dust...

Van Stockum dust
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

In general relativity, the van Stockum dust is an exact solution of the Einstein field equation in which the gravitational field is generated by dust rotating about an axis of cylindrical symmetry. Since the density of the dust is increasing with distance from this axis, the solution is rather artificial, but as one of the simplest known solutions in general relativity, it stands as a pedagogically important example.

This solution is named for Willem Jacob van Stockum, who rediscovered it in 1937, independently of an even earlier discovery by Cornelius Lanczos in 1924.

Take another look at my list of what's going on....

[lostNspace]

Okay folks...I need a big pat on the back...remember this post? Remember what was mentioned in the new comic-con video by Dr. Hali/Candle/Mund Cheng? He mentioned the Kerr Metric, the Einstein Field Theory and a pinhole...

Read from Wiki about what I originally posted re van Stockum Dust...

Van Stockum dust
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

In general relativity, the van Stockum dust is an exact solution of the Einstein field equation in which the gravitational field is generated by dust rotating about an axis of cylindrical symmetry. Since the density of the dust is increasing with distance from this axis, the solution is rather artificial, but as one of the simplest known solutions in general relativity, it stands as a pedagogically important example.

This solution is named for Willem Jacob van Stockum, who rediscovered it in 1937, independently of an even earlier discovery by Cornelius Lanczos in 1924.

Take another look at my list of what's going on....

I like that theory a lot. I guess I stuck on Ben saying that he could never come back. He did not say it would be difficult to find the island or it would take some time, he said never. Of course, he has lied once or twice before.

[notsolost42]

I like that theory a lot. I guess I stuck on Ben saying that he could never come back. He did not say it would be difficult to find the island or it would take some time, he said never. Of course, he has lied once or twice before.

Ben lie??? Why, he's a man of his word!!! LOL!!!! He just has to wait for the world to catch up in spacetime. It's like a merry-go-round. And he has to have everyone with him because they are all there already. Confused yet?

[notsolost42]

I decided to bring this thread back for more discussion because of the new pages we have seen from Daniel's journal.
Here's why:
The two cylinders on the second page represent Van Stockum Dust. This is a theory that we have all talked about before having to do with a Closed Timelike Curve.
I think that the exotic matter behind the donkey wheel is a singularity of a black hole. The exotic matter is negatively charged. We have been told that by TPTB already a long time ago. Why does this matter? There is something called a Tipler Cylinder. It's pretty simple. A Tipler cylinder, also called a Tipler time machine, is a hypothetical object theorized to be a potential mode of time travel—an approach that is conceivably functional within humanity's current understanding of physics, specifically the theory of general relativity, although later results have shown that a Tipler cylinder could only allow time travel if its length were infinite (see the discussion of Hawking's theorem below).

Frank J. Tipler showed in his 1974 paper, "Rotating Cylinders and the Possibility of Global Causality Violation" that in a spacetime containing a massive, infinitely long cylinder which was spinning along its longitudinal axis, the cylinder should create a frame-dragging effect. This frame-dragging effect warps spacetime in such a way that the light cones of objects in the cylinder's proximity become tilted, so that part of the light cone then points backwards along the time axis on a space time diagram. Therefore a spacecraft accelerating sufficiently in the appropriate direction can travel backwards through time along a closed timelike curve or CTC.

An objection to the practicality of building a Tipler cylinder was discovered by Stephen Hawking, who proved a theorem showing that according to general relativity it is impossible to build a time machine in any finite region that satisfies the weak energy condition, meaning that the region contains no exotic matter with negative energy. The Tipler cylinder, on the other hand, does not involve any negative energy. Tipler's original solution involved a cylinder of infinite length, which is easier to analyze mathematically, and although Tipler suggested that a finite cylinder might produce closed timelike curves if the rotation rate were fast enough, he did not prove this. But Hawking points out that because of his theorem, "it can't be done with positive energy density everywhere! I can prove that to build a finite time machine, you need negative energy."

So, in other words, I'm going out on a limb and saying that a Tipler Cylinder is possible when there is negatively charged exotic matter. That's what we know we have on the island behind the donkey wheel.

Without a doubt, it is the doorway of a black hole. Turning the wheel lets out more of the negative electromagnetic waves. Too much and it gets so hot you have an ultraviolet catastrophy or Purple Sky Event. Just enough and you hold open the event horizon of a black hole. The negatively charged exotic matter is a singularity or a collapsed star at the "center" of the black hole. In the center of the Crab Nebula are two supernova remnants or pulsars. One of these is the singularity or exotic matter that I am talking about. So, here's the thing. A black hole can be used for time travel. I think that maybe somewhere around Tunisia there is an opening from the "Earth side" and the other end is the "Island side" or somewhere near the Crab Nebula. That's why people and polar bears keep landing in Tunisia. I really believe that the island is on the event horizon of the black hole connected by the singularity from the Crab Nebula. In Daniel's journal, where he has the drawings of the cylinders and a large tornado looking thing, I have posted that when I blew the picture up you can see a space shuttle type vehicle or an airplane around the top edge. If it symbolizes an airplane then it's flight 815 as it was falling in the black hole or coming out to the island side. The only part that has me right now is the open end somewhere outside of Fiji. That's where 815 and the Black Rock both lost their bearings and had a major malfunction of their radar, etc.

Why all of this? I think that what's behind it all is a race trying to reproduce itself via humans or human clones. It is no doubt a dying race. I think the lineage of our losties is very important here. As is the messages about Hive Mentality in Daniel's journal. The busy little bees in the hive are all working hard for one specific goal. I believe that goal to be to reproduce their race. Could this be the tie in with the Crab Nebula? Does this make any sense to anyone else? Just one other little tid bit to do with all of this. I was thinking that the song Moonlight Serenade that was picked up by Sayid and Hurley on the beach in the first season had actually travelled through spacetime and those radio waves, which actually travel through space on the back of electromagnetic waves, were just reaching the location of the island. Weird, right? I've been trying to do the math to figure it out but there are far too many zeros and my calculator just won't do it!!! LOL!!!

[notsolost42]

Just to add to the confusion: I found this about wormholes...

Until recently, theorists believed that wormholes could exist for only an instant of time, and anyone trying to pass through would run into a singularity. But more recent calculations show that a truly advanced civilization might be able to make wormholes work. By using something physicists call “exotic matter,” which has a negative energy, the civilization could prevent a wormhole from collapsing on itself. The stuff of science fiction, to be sure. But perhaps some day in the far future, it could also turn into science fact.

Wow, I'm torn between a black hole and a wormhole now!!! Yikes!!!

Check out this video...watch the whole thing!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wogZN94-5QU

[beachblinkette]

Very well done, NotsoLost, this is a cogent piece of work. I don't pretend to understand it all, but I think it will hold up under water as they say. How does Ben then travel off the island? Does he use some device or is he just caught up in the event horizon and then falls out in Tunisia? There was always something very eerie about the song playing on Hurley's radio --- a very old 1940's time warpy sound to the thing. It's not what you normally hear today. I wish you would go back and look at the 4 straight arrows and the 3 wavy lines in the cylinder drawings. I think they are significant in that they each allude to some different kind of energy.:)

[notsolost42]

Very well done, NotsoLost, this is a cogent piece of work. I don't pretend to understand it all, but I think it will hold up under water as they say. How does Ben then travel off the island? Does he use some device or is he just caught up in the event horizon and then falls out in Tunisia? There was always something very eerie about the song playing on Hurley's radio --- a very old 1940's time warpy sound to the thing. It's not what you normally hear today. I wish you would go back and look at the 4 straight arrows and the 3 wavy lines in the cylinder drawings. I think they are significant in that they each allude to some different kind of energy.:)

They very well might. It could represent light. Light is the only energy that takes two forms. It is both particle and wave. There is a very interesting experiment with lasar light beams. They shoot it through two small holes in a board and you would expect to see their mark on the back wall in the same two spots. But you don't. You see it scattered and in the center. That's because the light takes both forms at the same time as it travels. Weird.
As for Ben's great adventures...well, I think that if you follow the coordinates to and from the island it must take you through a wormhole to the real world. That's when Ben and the gang used the submarine, etc. to travel back to the mainland. I think when the wheel is turned it opens another door and that's the black hole to somewhere else. It's strange because there are a few different entrances and exits from the island.
Both Moonlight Serenade and Le Mer are from about the same time period. I think they are both significant. Of what, I'm not sure yet. I tried my darndest to calculate how long it would take the music to travel in outer space to see if it could have reached the Crab Nebula but I'm not great in math. It just had too many zeros for my calculator to work with, also. LOL!!!

[beachblinkette]

They very well might. It could represent light. Light is the only energy that takes two forms. It is both particle and wave. There is a very interesting experiment with lasar light beams. They shoot it through two small holes in a board and you would expect to see their mark on the back wall in the same two spots. But you don't. You see it scattered and in the center. That's because the light takes both forms at the same time as it travels. Weird.
As for Ben's great adventures...well, I think that if you follow the coordinates to and from the island it must take you through a wormhole to the real world. That's when Ben and the gang used the submarine, etc. to travel back to the mainland. I think when the wheel is turned it opens another door and that's the black hole to somewhere else. It's strange because there are a few different entrances and exits from the island.
Both Moonlight Serenade and Le Mer are from about the same time period. I think they are both significant. Of what, I'm not sure yet. I tried my darndest to calculate how long it would take the music to travel in outer space to see if it could have reached the Crab Nebula but I'm not great in math. It just had too many zeros for my calculator to work with, also. LOL!!!
Thanks for that! I didn't know that light had two forms of energy. I appreciate your comments!
Here's a thought: Since the island is in the water, do you think that water is a conductor of energy related to the black hole or to time travel? Here's our island in the water(ocean) whose other end in the wormhole/ black hole, is a dried up desert---- the antithesis of water! Charlie died in water, Aaron was baptized with water, Desmond touched water when Widmore left it running, Smokie doesn't seem to appear in the rain or go near the water, all were drinking water from the cave spring, Locke knew it was going to rain, the dead doctor washed up in the water, the stream has water in it, there's frozen water in the wheel room, and the Other's babies had to float around in amniotic fluid (water),The Others island is in the water, some survivors landed in the water, so maybe the water on and around the island has a bigger, more profound role to play here than we think?

[notsolost42]

Thanks for that! I didn't know that light had two forms of energy. I appreciate your comments!
Here's a thought: Since the island is in the water, do you think that water is a conductor of energy related to the black hole or to time travel? Here's our island in the water(ocean) whose other end in the wormhole/ black hole, is a dried up desert---- the antithesis of water! Charlie died in water, Aaron was baptized with water, Desmond touched water when Widmore left it running, Smokie doesn't seem to appear in the rain or go near the water, all were drinking water from the cave spring, Locke knew it was going to rain, the dead doctor washed up in the water, the stream has water in it, there's frozen water in the wheel room, and the Other's babies had to float around in amniotic fluid (water),The Others island is in the water, some survivors landed in the water, so maybe the water on and around the island has a bigger, more profound role to play here than we think?

Water is a common denominator in life. Without it, we would or could not exist. I don't know how the water references actual fit the show. I am wondering if my theory about "floating" on the event horizon of a black hole is right, then maybe the water is an illusion of some kind! IDK!!!! There are so many common threads to the show it's easy to get lost in them all!

[EMIT]

This all sounds mighty fine, but could they really reveal this to an everyday audience and have it make sense?

Another item linked to CTC's that I have looked up is the idea of "Frame Dragging."

Do you reckon it could be involved in LOST? "Lense and Thirring predicted that the rotation of an object would alter space and time, dragging a nearby object out of position compared to the predictions of Newtonian physics. The predicted effect is incredibly small — about one part in a few trillion. In order to detect it, it is necessary to look at a very massive object, or build an instrument that is incredibly sensitive. More generally, the subject of field effects caused by moving matter is known as gravitomagnetism."
Remind anyone of a certain Donkey Wheel that had to be turned? Although it's not turning anything huge, It is turning somthing that is sensitive: "Exotic Matter.

[notsolost42]

This all sounds mighty fine, but could they really reveal this to an everyday audience and have it make sense?

Another item linked to CTC's that I have looked up is the idea of "Frame Dragging."

Do you reckon it could be involved in LOST? "Lense and Thirring predicted that the rotation of an object would alter space and time, dragging a nearby object out of position compared to the predictions of Newtonian physics. The predicted effect is incredibly small — about one part in a few trillion. In order to detect it, it is necessary to look at a very massive object, or build an instrument that is incredibly sensitive. More generally, the subject of field effects caused by moving matter is known as gravitomagnetism."
Remind anyone of a certain Donkey Wheel that had to be turned? Although it's not turning anything huge, It is turning somthing that is sensitive: "Exotic Matter.

The donkey wheel isn't turning the exotic matter, it's allowing it to build up heat. That's what causes the EM radiation or Purple Sky Event, or in real science, the ultraviolet catastrophy. When the matter is kept cold it is managable. Low levels (haha) of EM radiation being emitted. As for your thoughts on Frame Dragging, I'll check it out. It is an interesting concept.

[-XENOMORPHMELT-]

The donkey wheel isn't turning the exotic matter, it's allowing it to build up heat. That's what causes the EM radiation or Purple Sky Event, or in real science, the ultraviolet catastrophy. When the matter is kept cold it is managable. Low levels (haha) of EM radiation being emitted. As for your thoughts on Frame Dragging, I'll check it out. It is an interesting concept.

Your clever, and obviously not so lost...

[notsolost42]

Your clever, and obviously not so lost...

I checked out Frame Dragging and it was actually what led me to post about the island "floating" on the horizon line of a black hole. You know on that link you gave, well, there is a picture of a black hole and it shows the horizon line, etc. That's where it came from. So, frame dragging is a definite possibility.

[notsolost42]

The donkey wheel isn't turning the exotic matter, it's allowing it to build up heat. That's what causes the EM radiation or Purple Sky Event, or in real science, the ultraviolet catastrophy. When the matter is kept cold it is managable. Low levels (haha) of EM radiation being emitted. As for your thoughts on Frame Dragging, I'll check it out. It is an interesting concept.

Well, on one of the Season 4 Commentary DVD's TPTB gave up that the donkey wheel "might" be turning an apiture. So, I think that may just back up what I am saying here.
When the donkey wheel is turned it allows the negatively charged exotic matter to heat up because it is being exposed to warmer temperatures...when it heats up it emits huge amounts of EM, which in turn cause the Purple Sky Event or ultraviolet catastrophy. This in turn bends spacetime...and...moves the island!!!!
I don't believe that the time or number of degrees the island is moved is determined by how far the donkey wheel is turned. When it turns, it turns. It opens something, that's all.
Sounds like a possibility to me!

[Unbridled Pageantry]

TPTB have said that when the Swan imploded that something else happened other than the sky turning purple.

What do you think this could have been? What would happen to the exotic matter if it was just allowed to heat up slightly, until the pressure blew before the island moved?

Where did the swan go? Do you think that when it imploded is was shot somewhere in time, and that somewhere 100's of years in the past there's the wreckage of the Swan lying somewhere?

I know that's alot of questions... and run on sentences.

:)

[notsolost42]

TPTB have said that when the Swan imploded that something else happened other than the sky turning purple.

What do you think this could have been? What would happen to the exotic matter if it was just allowed to heat up slightly, until the pressure blew before the island moved?

Where did the swan go? Do you think that when it imploded is was shot somewhere in time, and that somewhere 100's of years in the past there's the wreckage of the Swan lying somewhere?

I know that's alot of questions... and run on sentences.

:)

When the Swan imploded it was sucked in by the EM forces just like a black hole eats everything around it by drawing it in because of its EM forces. The Swan is just plain destroyed.
I think that having an unaudited bit of negatively charged exotic matter just hanging out like that has been making the island move every since. I have said that before. When Horace Godspeed was in Locke's dream, I said that he was on a time loop because of the way he repeated himself. I think that maybe the island is drifting in spacetime or something like that. Without the computer to carefully discharge the EM in controlled doses the EM is drawing things in around it like a black hole. Don't forget, when Ben turned that wheel he opened something. TPTB called it an apiture. I would say like a camera has that lets light in to the film. So, the exotic matter is still confined but not controlled. I'm no physicist but I'd bet on something like that if TPTB stay true to the science in the show.

[John Locke]

That would be true if the island didn't go back in time or forward.. then it would be.. cant wait for S5 need some answers.. D:

[StormyKnight]

I've read through this thread and I get the gist of what you guys are saying and it's really cool. Last night I watched "The Shape of Things to Come" and grabbed my globe to try to figure out some logic to where Ben ended up...the Sahara. (This was before reading this thread today) If you could draw a straight line through the Earth from Tunesia you end up in the South Pacific...somewhere near Figi....or as the pilot said, about a thousand miles off course- direction unknown. Since we don't know exactly where in the Sahara Ben ended up, I'm guessing maybe the south/western region of Tunesia, which is where this gets sketchy, but I think the numbers have something to do with coordinates of the Island from one side of the Earth to the other. I found that about a thousand miles north of Figi (where the Pilot said they were heading back to) would be the 4 degree latitudinal north line. This would put the island near the equator as Sayid said to Shannon while tanning in "Whatever the Case May Be" (season 1). Ben went to Tozeur, Tunisia which is about 20 miles from the 8 degree longitudinal east line.
Unfortunately, that's as far as I can get with what's been revealed on the show so far. Not sure how 15, 16, 23 or 42 would fit into this scenario unless they are supposed to be reordered in some fashion within the sequence i.e. the 3 from 23 and the 4 from 42 for 34 which would mean a latitudinal coordinate approx. 10 miles north of Tozeur, Tunisia. Then, the two numbers in 15 and the 1 from 16 for 151 which would fit longitidinal coordinates just north/west of Papau New Guinea. Perhaps being passed down the numbers were "translated" incorrectly? Can we trust Leonard the crazy guy to get it right? (from Numbers season 1) Am I washed up like the Darmah Initiative? I can't figure out what the remaining numbers would refer to though-- so I probably am barking up the wrong Banyan tree.

[notsolost42]

The numbers worked in the computer so I'm gonna say they are right. Actually, TPTB have said before that the numbers themselves will never be explained. I take it to mean that there is no actual meaning of 4, 8, etc. So, although you obviously put a great deal of hard work into your mapping I'm not too sure it really relates to much. Keep going though. You just never know when they are not telling the entire truth!