Oceanic crash staged?

[Turbineblade]

I think that the oceanic flight 815 was staged.(the one that crashed in the water I mean) The pilot for the "rescue" team was completely sure that the dead pilot in the plane underwater was not who they said he was on t.v. since he wasnt wearing his ring. Also, none of the "rescue" team members were suprised of the fact that there are survivors (except for Naomie), on the outside world they confirmed everyone to be dead. and as a final note the entire plane was submerged underwater. on the island we know that there was lots of wreakege and the entire cockpit is in the jungle somewhere. In conclusion, i believe that the group of people that has the boat near the island (hanso foundation?) staged the crash. Also, the Hanso foundation has purchased Oceanic Airlines if some of you dont know, which very strange:confused:

[Barbecue_Bod]

I would say it is 100% staged :)

[PacmanIsLost]

I think the idea that this crash was staged is far too outlandish as it would take way too much money, not to mention the need to get a bunch of corpses together and then lay the plane down in the ocean without being noticed by anyone... Even though this is a solution that does not have supernatural elements I still find it to be less realistic as actually happening in the LOST universe... also, remember that Charlotte seems to be legitimately surprised that there are survivors (she could be acting but it doesn't seem to be the case)...

I think that the Orchid training video is really the key to a lot of this...If at the time of Dr. Candle's involvement with Dharma they were able to clone the rabbits or move them around in spacetime so that an apparent clone could appear, then perhaps over the years they were able to apply this same process to much larger objects (like flight 815)...and perhaps the magnetic energy around the swan had a lot to do with this and so when the system failure occurs that rips flight 815 apart it simultaneously transports a copy of the plane to the bottom of the ocean while the other crashes on the island...it brings to mind both Tesla's machine in The Prestige and much of the plot of Donnie Darko, especially the ending when Donnie sacrifices himself to make everything okay which has some startling parallels with Desmond's visions and learning about course correction and Charlie subsequently sacrificing himself so that "reality" can play out the way it is supposed to

If i had some truly coherent theories about this i would put them in the theories section but i believe there could be something to this...any thoughts?

[georgebushisaretard]

In the pilot episode, DNA samples were collected from all of the passengers (hairbrushes). Also, Oceanic 815 had a prototype bit of kit onboard (allegedly, some sort of auto pilot/safety system) designed and built by Hanso corporation, and was to be tested on this flight.

[wwgifted]

I totally can't buy the other Oceanic plane idea. A dead body would not be recognizable as such after some three months in the ocean. No way would a detail like someones hand sstill be visable after that long a peroid of time especialy in warm waters. i think the entire film clip of the wreckage was fabricated and the one and only plane is on the island in pieces.

[Glenn2000]

I'm not sure what to think. The wreck was found in a trench off of Java. That makes no sense at all if the flight was from Sydney to LA. The route would have gone over Fiji not Indonesia. Even if the island was disrupting the navagation system, causing the plane to be off course, ground based radar on Java would have picked up the plane.

The water in the deep ocean trenches is very VERY cold and that would inhibit some deteriation of the bodies, but when a plane falls out of the sky they don't generally stay in one or two pieces and the bodies are strewen everywhere.

Another problem with staging the crash is that military satellites would spot something like this being done and possibly Australian or Indonesian Coast Guard or Navy patrols might spot the vessels trying to set up the crash sight.

[bikemtn]

I think that somehow time is able to be changed. The crash that was found underwater is some alternative dimension where the pilot in fact was never married and that is why he did not have a ring on. Ties into the rabbits that someone talked about earlier......

[justjoe]

First of all what news channel would show a puffed up decomposed corpse on tv?

Anyway what if it is the reverse? What if 815 actually did crash into the ocean? What if the crash on the island was staged and the losties were actually brought there for a reason (which we know they were)? Maybe what the world is seeing is true and what the losties know is not reality? Just something to think about.

[thelawgiver]

The crash on the island could not have been staged. Remember that the Others book club was interrupted by the plane expoding in the air. They all went out and saw it. And Ben immediately dispatched his moles to infiltrate the survivors.

[justjoe]

Wow what a buzzkill! I thought I was on to something there. Back to the drawing board.

[drew102e]

doesnt mean a second 815 crash site wasnt staged

[Taller Ghost Walt]

My theory is that the crash we see underwater is actually flight 815 but in another time. The whole time travel aspect will be the big reveal at the end of this season. This will account for a lot of things, Desmond's visions, Flash Backs and Fast Forwards, and of course having a Taller Ghost Walt!

[drew102e]

but it would also be incredibly disappointing, time travel would really be a let down

[Glenn2000]

First of all what news channel would show a puffed up decomposed corpse on tv?

Anyway what if it is the reverse? What if 815 actually did crash into the ocean? What if the crash on the island was staged and the losties were actually brought there for a reason (which we know they were)? Maybe what the world is seeing is true and what the losties know is not reality? Just something to think about.

Oh, I'm sure FOX would be delighted to show a puffed up corpse - especially if crabs or some other bottom feeders were having a snack.

I don't think the survivors were placed on the island by anyone other than the accidental zap by the electromagnetic disturbance.

I think that flight 815 is both at the bottom of the trench of Java AND on the hidden island. This all goes into theoretical physics and "Gedanken Experiments - German for Thought Experiments. Dharma has created a time machine that used the electromagnetic power of the island to separate regular time from "island time."

A time machine needs two portals connected by something (current science/physics says a wormhole). The first portal is at Dharma's HQ (or some other location we have yet to be told about) and the second one is on the island.

The first portal continues along in "real" time, but the second portal, being encapsulated in the electromagnetic force of the island, and using that same power to run the time machine slowly begins to separate from "the present." Only 108 minutes. That doesn't seem like much, but over time - first minutes, then hours, then years. The separation grows to a significant amount between the portals. If you use the power of the island and can "reset" the second portal to the original time by keying in the sequence to operate the machine every 108 minutes you have created a time/space paradox.

Now, the thing to remember is that nobody can travel back further in time than when the original system was built. Let's say the summer of 1969. So there is no going back to see if Fred Flintstone lived or if Jesus was an only child and if he married. And initially, the separation of time and space wouldn't be all that interesting or reality shifting (Long hair, Viet-Nam protests, LSD, grass, free love (well, maybe the trip could be considered fun... ) ).

So, you have a time machine. So what?

Well, you get to study all sorts of theoretical physics in a practical setting. For instance, if a childless woman travels back in time and conceives a child what happens? Maybe a childless woman cannot travel to the past and conceive a child, because if she did, she would not have been a childless woman. In LOST both the mother and child die before the birth, thus preventing an anomaly in time and preserving the laws of nature. Because of this even Juliet cannot do anything to change the situation on the island.

So, if that's a problem, why not just go through the portal back to Dharma HQ?

Maybe Ben sabotaged the first portal or the half of the time machine that Dharma has at HQ or where ever it is hidden. Part of the plan to get rid of the Dharma crowd included slipping back and destroying the path to the island.

Okay, smart guy. Where is the damned island?

It isn't a question of where is the island. It is more of a WHEN is the island. The electromagnetic power source and the resetting of the machine every 108 minutes essentially has held the island at the time and space it occupied when the time machine system came on line. From what we've seen so far, it looks to be between 15 and 20 years separation. When Locke caused the Swan station to begin to implode and Malcolm set off the failsafe system the island lost the ability to reset it's time/space differential. It is now progressing forward in time, but some 15 to 20 years behind the rest of the planet. This is part of the reason that there is an electrical storm off shore that fowls up communication and forced the helicopter down.

Or maybe I need to get a life...

[digiboy13]

My theory is that the crash we see underwater is actually flight 815 but in another time. The whole time travel aspect will be the big reveal at the end of this season. This will account for a lot of things, Desmond's visions, Flash Backs and Fast Forwards, and of course having a Taller Ghost Walt!


The only reason Walt is taller is that he hasn't been in the show for a while and so has obviously grown up, as teenage boys tend to do!!

I don't think it's a ghost walt either. I think it's Jacob, who can change his form (also Vincent and Christian Shephard).... Also check out the catchphrase 'We/You have work to do'

[thelawgiver]

I still beleive that the aircraft underwater is staged. Hanso bought Oceanic and planted the aircraft. Then they lead Sam out on the Christine I and feed him the coordinates, so that it would be found. Yes, it may be a major undertaking but Hanso. Dharma operated under the radar for years. Also, the plane is in three sections and they could have been placed separately, making it an easier operation.

And if the island is time shifting, how come there was no problem for Dharma to drop food all the time, or float in an out on a sub, etc.?

[Dzbabykel]

I totally agree that Flight 815 was staged and that Oceanic Airlines are covering it all up. It makes sense especially if Hanso is involved...ahh Thurs can't come soon enough!!:eek:

[PacmanIsLost]

Glenn2000 - that is one of the best short theorizations i have read that works on many levels... i especially liked the bit about the effect it would have on the mothers and if you think about it, it is gives credence to the fact that Juliet thinks that whatever kills the mothers "happens at conception" which would be the moment at which the women would be creating an anomaly....

also...i don't understand why people think time travel would be a let down...i think it would be a much greater let down if it had been something simple like it was all a dream or it was purgatory which once discovered by viewers would explain pretty much everything while time travel and/or other dimensions create extra layers to the show that create more of a mystery... time travel allows you to approach the show as more realistic and i know personally i always have approached the show from the perspective that this is all actually happening to a group of people and all of the fantastical/impossible/confusing things that happen are really just real world applications of ideas like time travel that we think are impossible but we get to in a way see what it could be like if they did truly exist

[Archangel-Player]

1.) if a childless woman travels back in time and conceives a child what happens? Maybe a childless woman cannot travel to the past and conceive a child, because if she did, she would not have been a childless woman. In LOST both the mother and child die before the birth, thus preventing an anomaly in time and preserving the laws of nature. Because of this even Juliet cannot do anything to change the situation on the island.

1a.)You can travel back to the past and conceave a child. You just couldn't travel to the future to see how you progressed because you would now be in the past and your future would be untill you travel back to the future or what ever time you pass on in the past.

1b.)Explain how Claire had Arron and how Sun is haveing a child. If Sun conceaved on the island which was said in episode "D.O.C" then how could she have conceaved in the past since the island time is set for 2004 it would be the past. So how could sun have a baby in the past? If a childless woman couldn't conceave in the pass?
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2. This is part of the reason that there is an electrical storm off shore that fowls up communication and forced the helicopter down.

2a.) The island already gives off a strong burst of Electromagtism it realy didn't need the aid of the genrater which was safely maintating the energy. The Chopter wasn't struck by lightning. that is what hey claime dit was. It was a burst of Electromagtism . The same thing that hit flight 815. Except it didn't have a huge amout of built up energy like the genrated energy from the Swan. It wa sless efffective this time around because it no longer had a rage of built up energy aiding it. So it just shorted out the electrical equipment.
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3.)I don't think the survivors were placed on the island by anyone other than the accidental zap by the electromagnetic disturbance.

I think that flight 815 is both at the bottom of the trench of Java AND on the hidden island. This all goes into theoretical physics and "Gedanken Experiments - German for Thought Experiments. Dharma has created a time machine that used the electromagnetic power of the island to separate regular time from "island time."

3.a) I can buy that. Because like I said previously. With the aid of the built up ELectromagtism that came from the Swan's generater combined with the island's already massive Electromagtism it naturaly gives off combine dto make a what you can call a worm hole. It actualy was powerful enough to rip a hole in either time or the fabric of the dimention of our universe. Where in the chopter's case. It was just struct by the island's natural massive Electromagtism which just shorted out it's electrcal systems.

3b. i don't think Dharma was trying to effect time. But did it unknowenly. I think they actualy where trying to build a sheild that acts like a mirror and hides the island from view. Since force fields are created from high amounts of electromagtism. The same with cloaking devices. But something whent terrably wrong and a hole was made in the genrater which possably did the same thing we saw in Episode "Live together,die alone" Making one time a rip in time. A second time when Desmond allowed the genrater to go so long without releasing the Electromagtism building up. Then a third when the fail safe key was used it created yet again another rip in time. Or should I say rips in the dimention of the universe or worm holes.


So to make a long disscussion short. Dharma created unkowenly a "Slider" type of technology. Where it'sa Differnt reality but not the same yr as in the show. I belive time is so behind on the island because the story being shown in 2004 isn'tthe prsent time line. It's teh past being told to us from a certin point of view. The Flash Fwds are actualy the prsent and possably the distant future or they just seem teh distant future right now. iknow Hurley's and Jack's Flash Fwd's have a great amount of distants in them. Im willing to bet perhaps a yr or two.

[PacmanIsLost]

i think hurley and jack's flash forwards could actually be much closer together than it appears...one practical reason being that the writers would never have enough shows to fill in a significant amount of time between them in the flash forwards... also, jack says he is thinking about growing a beard when he talks to hurley and already has a bit more than a five o' clock shadow in that scene...now obviously he can keep shaving for years on end but i think it is a subtle hint when you also take into account the fact that jack is already drinking screwdrivers in the morning before he goes to work so he seems to be pretty quickly headed to where we find him boozing heavily during his flash forwards in "through the looking glass" at the end of season 3...i'd say the two flash forwards are probably less than a month apart

and in reference to your comments/questions about claire having aaron and sun getting pregnant - claire got pregnant off the island which takes her out of the equation and sun can get pregnant on the island but that doesn't mean it's not a death sentence for her

[Archangel-Player]

You missed the part where he said A childless woman couldn't conceave in the past. That was what i was getting at with Sun.

As for Clair that's true. Butthey didn't try to cut her open and steal her baby and leave her for dead for just no reason at all. They wanted to see how she was able to survive. But would they just cut her open and leave her for dead? or was that just Alex being scared for Clair's safety?

[PacmanIsLost]

maybe aaron has a greater place in the mythology of the island that the Hostiles pass onto the Others

[Dzbabykel]

I just wanted to add one thing about the Oceanic crash. I've been going back and watching old episodes of Lost starting with season 1 and in 'Dues Ex Machina', the one where Boone and Locke find the yellow beechcraft in the trees, Boone climbs up to check it out. He finds a working radio and sends out a distress call saying "we're survivors of flight 815" BUT in response a man comes and says, "No, WE are survivors of flight 815." Thats when the plan falls and crashes. What do you think that's about????? :confused:

[mrstooge8it2]

OMG - I totally forgot about that - thanks for the reminder!

[bunnydixon]

right i am watching that episode tonight - had completely forgotten about that.

[Dzbabykel]

No prob, I feel like it could really be relevant....man its so weird going back and watching these episodes...i'm finding soo much more stuff I had missed before!

[bunnydixon]

we rewatched season 3 in the lead up to the new season and they had mentioned jacob so many times here and there before they made a big deal of him. watching for the first time, i think most of this went over my head but now that I am aware of jacob, i picked them all up so i think with the earlier ones, there will be loads of clues we did not know to look for originally.

[bunnydixon]

i just watched the clip and as locke is yelling i cant make it out clearly but i thought it said 'there are no survivors of flight 815'.

[thelawgiver]

That is more logical Bunny. When Boone made the contact, the plane was reported found in the trench. But was Boone even talking to someone off the island? Ben has all the signals jammed and Rousseau's message repeated for some 18 years without being picked up off the island. I think it was one of Ben's gang playing with them and most likely Patchy who had a great radio system.

[bunnydixon]

more logical but less exciting!!!!

[Glenn2000]

1.) if a childless woman travels back in time and conceives a child what happens? Maybe a childless woman cannot travel to the past and conceive a child, because if she did, she would not have been a childless woman. In LOST both the mother and child die before the birth, thus preventing an anomaly in time and preserving the laws of nature. Because of this even Juliet cannot do anything to change the situation on the island.

1a.)You can travel back to the past and conceave a child. You just couldn't travel to the future to see how you progressed because you would now be in the past and your future would be untill you travel back to the future or what ever time you pass on in the past.

1b.)Explain how Claire had Arron and how Sun is haveing a child. If Sun conceaved on the island which was said in episode "D.O.C" then how could she have conceaved in the past since the island time is set for 2004 it would be the past. So how could sun have a baby in the past? If a childless woman couldn't conceave in the pass?
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2. This is part of the reason that there is an electrical storm off shore that fowls up communication and forced the helicopter down.

2a.) The island already gives off a strong burst of Electromagtism it realy didn't need the aid of the genrater which was safely maintating the energy. The Chopter wasn't struck by lightning. that is what hey claime dit was. It was a burst of Electromagtism . The same thing that hit flight 815. Except it didn't have a huge amout of built up energy like the genrated energy from the Swan. It wa sless efffective this time around because it no longer had a rage of built up energy aiding it. So it just shorted out the electrical equipment.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
3.)I don't think the survivors were placed on the island by anyone other than the accidental zap by the electromagnetic disturbance.

I think that flight 815 is both at the bottom of the trench of Java AND on the hidden island. This all goes into theoretical physics and "Gedanken Experiments - German for Thought Experiments. Dharma has created a time machine that used the electromagnetic power of the island to separate regular time from "island time."

3.a) I can buy that. Because like I said previously. With the aid of the built up ELectromagtism that came from the Swan's generater combined with the island's already massive Electromagtism it naturaly gives off combine dto make a what you can call a worm hole. It actualy was powerful enough to rip a hole in either time or the fabric of the dimention of our universe. Where in the chopter's case. It was just struct by the island's natural massive Electromagtism which just shorted out it's electrcal systems.

3b. i don't think Dharma was trying to effect time. But did it unknowenly. I think they actualy where trying to build a sheild that acts like a mirror and hides the island from view. Since force fields are created from high amounts of electromagtism. The same with cloaking devices. But something whent terrably wrong and a hole was made in the genrater which possably did the same thing we saw in Episode "Live together,die alone" Making one time a rip in time. A second time when Desmond allowed the genrater to go so long without releasing the Electromagtism building up. Then a third when the fail safe key was used it created yet again another rip in time. Or should I say rips in the dimention of the universe or worm holes.


So to make a long disscussion short. Dharma created unkowenly a "Slider" type of technology. Where it'sa Differnt reality but not the same yr as in the show. I belive time is so behind on the island because the story being shown in 2004 isn'tthe prsent time line. It's teh past being told to us from a certin point of view. The Flash Fwds are actualy the prsent and possably the distant future or they just seem teh distant future right now. iknow Hurley's and Jack's Flash Fwd's have a great amount of distants in them. Im willing to bet perhaps a yr or two.

Archangel-Player, I'll do my best to try and address your questions to my theories...

1.a) I confess that I don't understand your comment exactly. What I said was that if a woman was childless she has to remain childless - even if that means she and the baby must die to maintain the laws of nature.

1.b) Clair was pregnant before flight 815 crashed thus she was not affected by the anomaly. That was the point of confusion for "The Others" initially because all of their women who became pregnant died.

Sun is now facing the possibility that she and her unborn child with both die because she did become pregnant on the island. At least that is what Juliette told her after examining her in the Dharma medical hatch.

2. I agree, the electromagnetic energy the island produces plays havoc with much of the electronic equipment.

2a) The Swan Station/Hatch wasn't generating the electromagnetic power of the island. It was keeping it under control. Somehow, keying in the sequence into the computer every 108 minutes caused all the "stuff" behind that concrete to dampen the energy. When Malcolm didn't key in the sequence it caused Oceanic 815 to crash.

Now that the hatch has imploded the electromagnetic energy from the island causes the turbulence and electrical storms that appear to be lightning. From the helicopter it would appear that they flew into a massive thunderstorm, but it is the energy field that the island generates.

3) It is a strong possibility that Dharma was trying to harness the electromagnetic energy of the island and inadvertently created the time/space differential - a wormhole. Wouldn't be the first time that a company was trying to do one thing and something else ended up the result. It may well be that the survivors are in an alternative reality/universe from the one they were in when the flight left Sydney for Los Angeles.

[Dzbabykel]

This may be a dumb question, but does anyone know why they don't have to press the button anymore? Granted yes the station was destroyed so they couldn't push the button even if they wanted to, but now nothing is being controlled? I'm confused...

[bunnydixon]

i was wondering the same thing - i think it might be to do with the failsafe key doing something long term. did it permamently dissipate the electromagnetic energy?

[Archangel-Player]

Archangel-Player, I'll do my best to try and address your questions to my theories...

1.a) I confess that I don't understand your comment exactly. What I said was that if a woman was childless she has to remain childless - even if that means she and the baby must die to maintain the laws of nature.

1.b) Clair was pregnant before flight 815 crashed thus she was not affected by the anomaly. That was the point of confusion for "The Others" initially because all of their women who became pregnant died.

Sun is now facing the possibility that she and her unborn child with both die because she did become pregnant on the island. At least that is what Juliette told her after examining her in the Dharma medical hatch.

2. I agree, the electromagnetic energy the island produces plays havoc with much of the electronic equipment.

2a) The Swan Station/Hatch wasn't generating the electromagnetic power of the island. It was keeping it under control. Somehow, keying in the sequence into the computer every 108 minutes caused all the "stuff" behind that concrete to dampen the energy. When Malcolm didn't key in the sequence it caused Oceanic 815 to crash.

Now that the hatch has imploded the electromagnetic energy from the island causes the turbulence and electrical storms that appear to be lightning. From the helicopter it would appear that they flew into a massive thunderstorm, but it is the energy field that the island generates.

3) It is a strong possibility that Dharma was trying to harness the electromagnetic energy of the island and inadvertently created the time/space differential - a wormhole. Wouldn't be the first time that a company was trying to do one thing and something else ended up the result. It may well be that the survivors are in an alternative reality/universe from the one they were in when the flight left Sydney for Los Angeles.
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I said that the generater was storing the electromagtism. I even said the island has it's own natural Electromagtism.

"Now that the hatch has imploded the electromagnetic energy from the island causes the turbulence and electrical storms that appear to be lightning. From the helicopter it would appear that they flew into a massive thunderstorm, but it is the energy field that the island generates."

That's basicaly what I said.
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"1.a) I confess that I don't understand your comment exactly. What I said was that if a woman was childless she has to remain childless - even if that means she and the baby must die to maintain the laws of nature."

Doesn't that statement controdict this statement?



"Sun is now facing the possibility that she and her unborn child with both die because she did become pregnant on the island. At least that is what Juliette told her after examining her in the Dharma medical hatch."


Because orignaly you wrote


"Well, you get to study all sorts of theoretical physics in a practical setting. For instance, if a childless woman travels back in time and conceives a child what happens? Maybe a childless woman cannot travel to the past and conceive a child, because if she did, she would not have been a childless woman. In LOST both the mother and child die before the birth, thus preventing an anomaly in time and preserving the laws of nature. Because of this even Juliet cannot do anything to change the situation on the island."



What i got was that you where saying a woman cannot conceave in the past. Well if that is true and the island is set in 2004 time zone and according to the Flash Fwds it's atleast 2007. How is that possable? If the island is stuck in a slow time moving envirment in the past? Wouldn't Sun be a woman in the past conceaving a child?

I understand Clair's situation completly. She had already conceaved before the Plane was struct to this slow time moving envirment which seems to take place in the past. Because even with the 108 mins adjustment the island is still stuck in the past but when the timer is pushed the island is now 108 mind closer to the present date.

[Archangel-Player]

I just wanted to add one thing about the Oceanic crash. I've been going back and watching old episodes of Lost starting with season 1 and in 'Dues Ex Machina', the one where Boone and Locke find the yellow beechcraft in the trees, Boone climbs up to check it out. He finds a working radio and sends out a distress call saying "we're survivors of flight 815" BUT in response a man comes and says, "No, WE are survivors of flight 815." Thats when the plan falls and crashes. What do you think that's about????? :confused:
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Boone was receaving a radio signal from the radio that the tailies found in the Arrow. The man Boone was talking to was Benard.

[bunnydixon]

that seems vaguely familiar actually.......

[Dzbabykel]

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Boone was receaving a radio signal from the radio that the tailies found in the Arrow. The man Boone was talking to was Benard.

OHHHHHHH that's right! I totally forgot that, haha now I feel dumb :p Thanks for clearing that up :)

[bunnydixon]

if there is ever something thats made me more sure i need to go back and watch season 1 and maybe the first half of season 2 - its that!

[jackchick]

Hi! new to Forum but not to Lost addiction.
Reading thru theads and theories has been interesting. One thing I haven't figured out is if all the Darhma we're killed off by Ben, why haven't the "main suppliers" like for food, come-a-searching as to why no one is still sending the progress reports etc. Is the Hanso group really the owners of Oceanic? Where was that reavelled? Could we be seeing the Hanso group/Darhma suppliers making a push to find the island and that's how Naomi came in. Their obviously up to something because they lie and had to have code for something was wrong- "tell my sister I love her." Then the fact the guy was trying to get ahold of Hurley...and the crash is a setup of some kind - it's not even really there it's a hoax- like smoke and mirrors. My thoughts only, but I like the ideas!

[thelawgiver]

Jackchick:
See Thread on Big Hole in Island History