I don't understand people

[navyguy]

Now this is kind of a wierd topic i just had to vent and question.

See, being a dedicated Christian i am a strong believer in creation science. Creation scientists do just as much research and have just as much scientific evidence for their theories as evolutionists.

Why is it that creationists, such as myself, have no problem stating that CS is a THEORY but evolutionists (no offense to any evolutionist in here) treat all their theories as if they are laws.

[Jon]

Creation scientists do just as much research and have just as much scientific evidence for their theories as evolutionists.



There is no scientific ''evidence'' for creationism. It is rooted in the text of a collection of violent and quite bizarre middle Eastern stories. That is not science, it is religion.

but evolutionists (no offense to any evolutionist in here) treat all their theories as if they are laws.

That's because evolution is observable, logical, can be tested, studied and repeated.

I don't mean to offend you; there is a place in the world for religious thought, just like there is room in this world for artistic, philosophical and magical thought. But when fundamentalists try to coat their theories with a scientific glaze, well that is entirely as ridiculous as if scientists starting veiling their theories in metaphor and myth. It also suggests the religious are trying too hard to get their belief system accepted.

There is no need for this. Religion is perfectly well suited to churches, temples and moments of quiet solitude. It has no place in laboratories.

[navyguy]

what i am saying is a THEORY is a THEORY and should not be accepted as LAW yet people do.

[Jon]

And as a side note, there is a difference between a non-believer and a scientist. A non-believer tends to immediately dismiss anything (which is just as stupid as believing everything).

An example of this is a friend of mine; he had never been able to recall having a dream (though it's proven that everybody dreams, just not everybody remembers their dreams) and thus didn't believe there was such thing as dreaming and the whole thing was on account of people being delusional. Trying to tell him how utterly ridiculous his viewpoint was, was impossible. Then again, it's very hard for someone to change their viewpoint when they've clung onto it for their entire life!

That is a non-believer. A scientific mind always examines the possibilities and then tests them, because that is the domain of science.

[Jon]

I don't know of any religious people who accept the teachings of their God (be it Allah/Jehovah/Vishnu) as 'theory', but they always accept it as law :rolleyes:

Oh and evolution is essentially fact, by the way, as is gravity. It is referred to commonly as a 'theory of evolution' because this is the phrase Darwin used and it basically stuck in popular consciousness.

[navyguy]

I don't know of any religious people who accept the teachings of their God (be it Allah/Jehovah/Vishnu) as 'theory', but they always accept it as law :rolleyes:

Oh and evolution is essentially fact, by the way, as is gravity. It is referred to commonly as a 'theory of evolution' because this is the phrase Darwin used and it basically stuck in popular consciousness.

I will have you check out www.drdino.com

[Jon]

I will have you check out http://salmonriver.com/lightscience/evolution2.html

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

Perhaps I don't understand the question, but it seems to me that God is the greatest scientist of all, no? For as much as mankind has figured out, we have only yet scratched the surface of the infinite stretches of the Mind of God. I see no confict between science and faith. I do see a conflict between science and religion whose dogma has the potential to be narrow and strangling. **bows head; please don't let this come back to haunt me**
LOL:)

[Jon]

Perhaps I don't understand the question, but it seems to me that God is the greatest scientist of all, no? For as much as mankind has figured out, we have only yet scratched the surface of the infinite stretches of the Mind of God. I see no confict between science and faith. I do see a conflict between science and religion whose dogma has the potential to be narrow and strangling. **bows head; please don't let this come back to haunt me**
LOL:)

Science and faith will always conflict because science is believing with evidence, faith is believing without evidence (faith).

I wouldn't say God is a great scientist. The human body is very flawed.

If you want to use 'God' as a metaphor for the universe, then sure, I can accept that. But not as an intervening entity.

[boutte]

I'm a christian so I believe in creationism. But there is too much evidence that evolution is real. I don't really think one excludes the other. I believe that the more scientists learn, the more discover how wrong they've been in the past and I think they still have a lot to learn concerning evolution. I believe the bible is the word of god but is not the answer to all questions and was never intended to be. I believe the answer to all things spiritual, all we need to know to please god is there. We don't need to know the process that led to our existance. We don't need to know particle physics or computer science. If we did it would have been revealed to us. We (most of us, including me) want to know, or at least benefit from scientific knowledge. Spiritualy though my salvation does not depend being able to fly to LA for the holidays and therefore the word of god does not include instrutions on aerodynamics or jet engine technology.

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

Science and faith will always conflict because science is believing with evidence, faith is believing without evidence (faith).

I wouldn't say God is a great scientist. The human body is very flawed.

If you want to use 'God' as a metaphor for the universe, then sure, I can accept that. But not as an intervening entity.

Faith extends where science has just not happened to advance as yet.

I know the human body very well, and I would say that when it is in a state of homeostasis, that body is remarkably less flawed than one would think.
Many factors work to flaw this body.

But I will now respectfully bow out of this thread as I don't want to veer off into teritory it was not intended to go. Thank you gentlemen. :)
Carry on.

[Jon]

Faith extends where science has just not happened to advance as yet.

I know the human body very well, and I would say that when it is in a state of homeostasis, that body is remarkably less flawed than one would think.
Many factors work to flaw this body.

5 Body flaws

The human body is both extremely complex and remarkably efficient. Yet, wonderful as it is, it certainly isn’t perfect. In this article we look at five design flaws.

Many of the body’s design flaws spring from the fact that the human body is the product of a long process of evolution. Whereas evolution produces efficiency, it certainly doesn’t produce perfection. The key is that rather than designing from scratch, evolution can only re-arrange and build on what is already present.

1. The wisdom in wisdom teeth
Anyone who has had trouble with their wisdom teeth would know that these third molars bring nothing but pain. The reason for this is quite simply that we do not have enough room in our mouths.

Our distant ancestors, with their slightly longer jawbones, may have had room for them. But in the mouth of the modern human, wisdom teeth often end up having nowhere to grow to and become stuck (compacted) and have to be removed.

Wisdom teeth may have helped our distant ancestors chew all that harsh unprocessed foods, but today, they are little more than an example of outdated design that most people can do without.

2. The appendix
Even though it has been extensively researched, scientists have not managed to identify any clear function for the human appendix. But whereas we do not know what it is good for, we certainly know how life-threateningly harmful it can be.

Between five and ten percent of people will develop acute appendicitis in their lifetimes. When this happens, the appendix fills with pus and has to be surgically removed.

Interestingly, other mammals seem to have a similar structure to the human appendix, which they use for certain kinds of digestion. This strongly suggests that, like our wisdom teeth, our appendixes are inherited from our distant ancestors.

In addition, recent studies have suggested that removing the appendix may reduce the chances of developing ulcerative colitis. Add the fact that no adverse effects have been noticed from removing the human appendix, and the case for a design flaw is very strong.

3. Looking the wrong way?
We know that our eyes are certainly not the best in the animal kingdom. But whereas a suboptimal design seems to serve our purposes well enough, the human eye, as those of other vertebrates, nevertheless seems to be rather strangely laid out.

Our eyes are essentially wired backwards with the light-sensitive cones and rods (the eye’s 'film') situated behind a webbing of blood vessels and nerve fibres and facing away from the light.

One consequence of this design is that the nerves have to travel through the eye, which is why the human eye has a blind spot at its centre. By contrast, an animal like the squid has its eyes wired the correct, or more obvious, way around with the photoreceptors pointing toward the light.

In addition, the connection between the optic nerve and the retina is surprisingly fragile – something which makes the retina prone to detaching as we age.

4. Down the wrong pipe
Another aspect of the human body that is widely considered to be an example of questionable design is the way in which air and food briefly share the same pipe. In essence, this is why we can choke on our food.

A number of scientists have suggested that it may have been a better design to keep the trachea (air pipe) and oesophagus (the pipe food travels down) completely separate. Instead, these two cross, which is why food can go “down the wrong pipe” - something that can be fatal.

A small valve, or flap, called the epiglottis, helps close the trachea when swallowing food. While this does solve the problem most of the time, it certainly isn’t a perfect solution.

Furthermore, in children, the epiglottis can become infected, which can lead to severe inflammation. Though this can be easily treated, it can be very dangerous when treatment is not available.

5. Haemorrhoids
Haemorrhoids refers to a condition where veins in and around the anus become inflamed. They can at times be itchy and painful, and are usually first suspected when blood is noticed in the stool.

Possible causes include a genetic predisposition, the increased pressure in the rectum during pregnancy and straining during bowel movements. By the age of 50, an estimated 50% of adults would have experienced haemorrhoids.

There are strong suggestions that squatting during bowel movements may have a protective effect, something which suggests that modern toilets are at least part of the problem.

Either way, exposing veins to the kind of pressures and friction present in the rectum is certainly not good design.

Not adapted for longer life
Just as haemorrhoids suggest that our bodies have not adapted to modern toilets, a number of other body flaws also involve our inability to adapt to our changing circumstances.

One of the major changes of the last few hundred years, is that human beings are getting much older. This means we are more aware of how our eyes, ears, backs, hips and brains fail to stand up to the passing of time.

But, the mere fact that we are living longer suggests that we are doing a good job of adapting to the weak spots in our design. Whether it is using vaccines to train our bodies to spot infections, or wearing glasses to see better, we are certainly making progress.

But inguinal hernias, cancer, labour pain, autoimmune diseases (where the body attacks itself) are all still with us. All of which suggests that in terms of plugging the gaps in the design of the human body, we have a long way to go. – (Marcus Low, Health24)

Reviewed by Prof Don du Toit, head of anatomy at Stellenbosch University http://www.health24.com/Man/General/748-771,40085.asp[/B]

There is a list of around 90 other flaws but I shan't post as no one will read it and it'll take up too much space :rolleyes:

[stargazer]

My uncle wasn't a monkey...

[bunnydixon]

My uncle wasn't a monkey...

was he a chimp?

:p

[krakup]

was he a chimp?

:p

or a one cell amoeba. science cant explain everything, never will but without reason faith is blind

[beachblinkette]

That was very interesting to read Jon, thanks for that.You are an extremely intelligent human being and I appreciate your views on things. But science with all its knowledge was not able to find out what the disease was that killed my daughter-in-law at age 39. All of the ten thousand dollar autopsies and the learned Dr.Vintner, head of the pathology department at UCLA, with all their credentials and all their experience and their great body of knowledge about diseases could not find it out. That will be the first question I ask my God when I see Him in heaven and He will be able to tell me the answer! No scientist that I know of can do that.

[Jon]

That was very interesting to read Jon, thanks for that.You are an extremely intelligent human being and I appreciate your views on things. But science with all its knowledge was not able to find out what the disease was that killed my daughter-in-law at age 39. All of the ten thousand dollar autopsies and the learned Dr.Vintner, head of the pathology department at UCLA, with all their credentials and all their experience and their great body of knowledge about diseases could not find it out. That will be the first question I ask my God when I see Him in heaven and He will be able to tell me the answer! No scientist that I know of can do that.

I'm very sorry to hear that about your daughter-in-law, it's terrible that she was taken at such a young age.

You're right - unfortunately, science doesn't know everything yet because it is a an experimental process of gaining knowledge and a cumulative process. No scientist would claim they have all the answers now. But as for the future?

Oh and don't credit me as being too intelligent, I just copied and pasted that article :)

[5starboss]

That's because evolution is observable, logical, can be tested, studied and repeated.

Certain events don't fit into these categories, for example, a hole in one ( GOLF). You can't continually repeat such an event, it's just not likely. Same with the big bang and evolution. It's not reproducable. It's conjecture based on evidence that is viewed by people with biased opinions.

Giraffes should not be in existance, nor bombadier beetles. ( just 2 of the top of my head)

A giraffes heart would send too much blood to it's brain as it bends to drink if it weren't for a regulation valve. If giraffes died before this valve evolved, they aren't alive to have the time necessary to evolve. Boom---no giraffes.

Bombadier beetles mix 2 explosive chemicals in a unique way without harming themselves. If it would have died the 1st time it attempted this action----boom--- no Bombadier beetles.

Of course, the argument is over billions of years, these things worked out somehow. But dead animals don't evolve. There are plenty of scientists who studied to prove creation wrong and ended up switching sides. I don't know about the other way around.


Believing in evolution is a religion. You must have faith in the GAPS not explained by science. The odds of our planet evolving life are the same as if a monkey threw a handful of chalk at a blackboard producing Einsteins theory of relativity. Or a tornado tearing through a junk yard and leaving behind a pefectly functioning 747 Boeing Airliner.

[5starboss]

I don't know of any religious people who accept the teachings of their God (be it Allah/Jehovah/Vishnu) as 'theory', but they always accept it as law :rolleyes:

Oh and evolution is essentially fact, by the way, as is gravity. It is referred to commonly as a 'theory of evolution' because this is the phrase Darwin used and it basically stuck in popular consciousness.

Darwin also called his own theory preposterous before he died. It's not fact. There are many assumptions evolutionary scientists make. There are also many past assumptions now proven wrong.

[Archangel-Player]

To me no human did or doese or will know the true begining or end of life on Earth. It's a universal understanding that we whern't supose to know the begening or end. If we where then we would know it for a fact right now. The basis of Science as to where it all began is based on theiories it's imposable to know the beging for we whern't there to witness it. Same with Faith. people put faith into the word of God. We don't know the beging because we whern't there to witness it. So all we have is what our forfathers wrote in both the Bible and science books. It is up to us to put the puzzle together and find facts from fiction. That's the journey of life or the trials of life.

[ortrules]

I think it comes down to the evidence of the issues. There is evidence of evolution, and quite frankly, it cannot be denied. Is it fool-proof? No. Does it explain everything? Certainly not.

Alternatively, the evidence of creationism is not tangible, and will never be "proven" without it - hence the term faith.

Now, why people believe that evolution means there is no creationism or why creationism means no evolution is beyond me. I'm not the most religious person myself, but I think life could have started with creationism (it had to start somewhere) and evolution could have taken over from there.

[notsolost42]

Science IS my religion.

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

Who's to say that there wasn't a PRE-Adamic world on our earth that God chose not to reveal to us? I mean, obviously there was a lot going on prior to 7,000 yrs ago.
Plus, I'd like to just throw in the latest science is now saying, which is that they are DOUBTFUL Neandrathals et al (CroMagnon, homonoids...whatever they were) were of the same species as homosapians, and think they co-existed for a time before they ultimately died out.

[Jeremy]

I believe that thinking about the past is pointless and that it's just going to repeat itself anyway. :p

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

I believe that thinking about the past is pointless and that it's just going to repeat itself anyway. :p

Jeremy, you're an old soul in a young body. :)

[boutte]

I believe that thinking about the past is pointless and that it's just going to repeat itself anyway. :p
So you believe there is nothing to be learned from the past? Each generation needs to figure out everything all over again? Hope you like eating raw meat and running around naked.

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

So you believe there is nothing to be learned from the past? Each generation needs to figure out everything all over again? Hope you like eating raw meat and running around naked.

LOL Boutte! Jeremy was just being funny! But this was hysterical too!!!LOL

[R.I.P.Charlie]

So you believe there is nothing to be learned from the past? Each generation needs to figure out everything all over again? Hope you like eating raw meat and running around naked.now thats a screen saver!

[LostLate]

So you believe there is nothing to be learned from the past? Each generation needs to figure out everything all over again? Hope you like eating raw meat and running around naked.


Can't I learn from the past AND eat raw meat and run aroung naked?!?

John 3:16 - Nuff said.

[boutte]

Can't I learn from the past AND eat raw meat and run aroung naked?!?

John 3:16 - Nuff said.
Sure. It's just more fun if you don't have to.

[Jon]

Certain events don't fit into these categories, for example, a hole in one ( GOLF). You can't continually repeat such an event, it's just not likely. Same with the big bang and evolution. It's not reproducable. It's conjecture based on evidence that is viewed by people with biased opinions.


Actually, what you claim couldn't be further from the truth. It is wholly possible to repeat such an event in laboratory conditions. It would take an enormous lab and a long time to calibrate a mechanical 'arm' to fire the balls at a specific point, but it could be done very plausibly.

We have the mathematics and scientific method to launch rockets across the universe... shooting a golf ball into a hole is playground physics but on a larger scale. I don't think you couldn't have picked a worse example :)

Funny how you claim the big bang is not reproducable, because that's exactly what scientists have begun doing now. :D


Giraffes should not be in existance, nor bombadier beetles. ( just 2 of the top of my head)

A giraffes heart would send too much blood to it's brain as it bends to drink if it weren't for a regulation valve. If giraffes died before this valve evolved, they aren't alive to have the time necessary to evolve. Boom---no giraffes.

Bombadier beetles mix 2 explosive chemicals in a unique way without harming themselves. If it would have died the 1st time it attempted this action----boom--- no Bombadier beetles

These have been debunked many, many, many times by scientists. Google. (Though you won't, I know).

There are plenty of scientists who studied to prove creation wrong and ended up switching sides. I don't know about the other way around.

That's because creationists don't actually understand evolution. They can't start believing in something they don't understand.

Believing in evolution is a religion. You must have faith in the GAPS not explained by science. The odds of our planet evolving life are the same as if a monkey threw a handful of chalk at a blackboard producing Einsteins theory of relativity. Or a tornado tearing through a junk yard and leaving behind a pefectly functioning 747 Boeing Airliner.

Such a claim is laughable to anybody with an IQ above room temperature, to anybody who has even a basic understanding of biology and physics. The religulous frequently teach this to their flock. I've heard it many times.

It took over 15 billion years for life as we know it to evolve and exist. So to use the analogies you did, shows how completely false and misleading the point you make is.

The world is raw, primal and natural. It is mud and lakes and deserts. It is largely inhabitable (nice one God, should've thought it through a bit more!) and it is round because of gravity, like every other planet. This is nothing even equivalent to an airliner being made from parts whisked together. That would be like me saying ''the chances of you being born, from a fertilised egg are equivalent to me taking a bunch of marbles and throwing them and having them land one on top of the other''. It doesn't work like that... these are natural processes. Such profane, ill-conceived analogies are not appropriate.

There could be proof tomorrow that there was no God, and people would still choose to believe in one because it's a comforting thought for them, so no matter what I say, you will always believe in your God. I'm pleased that you have such faith.

I would much rather believe in the harmony and beauty of the natural, scientific universe devoid of mythological deities than to believe in one made in 7 days by a giant, angry ghost that wants everybody to worship him ;)

Oh, and believing in 'evolution' is not religion. I live my life the way I want, I believe what I want and I certainly don't let a bad translation of a Hebrew fairytale dictate what I should and shouldn't do.

[Makemelost]

science is just like our favorite show here! with every answer there are more and more damn questions. i think that science fills the gaps that religions dont and possible but not to such a specific point, visa versa. The only difference is that scientific theories can eventually be proven (or disproven) whereas, most religious theories, such as god, cannot.

[lostie108]

Science and faith will always conflict because science is believing with evidence, faith is believing without evidence (faith).

I wouldn't say God is a great scientist. The human body is very flawed.

If you want to use 'God' as a metaphor for the universe, then sure, I can accept that. But not as an intervening entity.

couln't have said it better myself , nice jon.

[ortrules]

Actually, what you claim couldn't be further from the truth. It is wholly possible to repeat such an event in laboratory conditions. It would take an enormous lab and a long time to calibrate a mechanical 'arm' to fire the balls at a specific point, but it could be done very plausibly.

Exactly. The example of hitting a hole in one is poor. The biggest variable for Golf is the golfer, and because humans are imperfect beings it greatly affects the success of such events. Tiger Woods is one of the greatest golfers, and yet he still manages to shank balls into trees, sand traps, etc. Human error is to blame for that.

The other thing I always think about religion is the hypocrisy believing in gods. Christian are quick to accept and believe in God and are just as quick to denounce Allah, Vishnu, Zeus, Ra the Sun God, or any other entity throughout history. After all, one of the 10 commandments is to not worship false idols. And yet, you can't prove God exists anymore than you can disprove these other gods exist.

Alternatively, we can provide definitive proof that the theory of evolution is true, that the theory of relativity is true, and that other scientific theories are true. But I don't think that means I have to denounce a higher entity such as God - there's still room for religious beliefs.

[notsolost42]

If your God is so peaceful, loving and forgiving, then why on earth were so many murdered, tortured and who knows what else, during the crusades and inquisition? You died if you didn't accept one particular way of thinking. It just never made sense to me that you would kill someone because they did not believe in your peaceful God.
I really don't abide by any structured religion. That's not to say I don't believe in some kind of higher power. I just don't know if there is and what it is if it does exist. I was raised to question everything; to be thoughtful and inquisative. That's why learning and understanding are my religion in a sense. I dance to the beat of my own drummer. If a day goes by without my having learned something I am truely sadened so I look for something new each day. I live my life by my own code of ethics and how I would want others to treat me. When I have the least, I give the most. I do not force my beliefs down other peoples throats. I accept people for who they are and what they are and have learned over my many years that you cannot really change anyone, they must change themselves. I have learned to accept all different ways of thinking and to try and be nonjudgemental.
To Each, His/Her Own.

[5starboss]

Actually, what you claim couldn't be further from the truth. It is wholly possible to repeat such an event in laboratory conditions. It would take an enormous lab and a long time to calibrate a mechanical 'arm' to fire the balls at a specific point, but it could be done very plausibly.

Funny how you claim the big bang is not reproducable, because that's exactly what scientists have begun doing now. :D




These have been debunked many, many, many times by scientists. Google. (Though you won't, I know).



That's because creationists don't actually understand evolution. They can't start believing in something they don't understand.



Such a claim is laughable to anybody with an IQ above room temperature, to anybody who has even a basic understanding of biology and physics. The religulous frequently teach this to their flock. I've heard it many times.

It took over 15 billion years for life as we know it to evolve and exist. So to use the analogies you did, shows how completely false and misleading the point you make is.

The world is raw, primal and natural. It is mud and lakes and deserts. It is largely inhabitable (nice one God, should've thought it through a bit more!) and it is round because of gravity, like every other planet. This is nothing even equivalent to an airliner being made from parts whisked together. That would be like me saying ''the chances of you being born, from a fertilised egg are equivalent to me taking a bunch of marbles and throwing them and having them land one on top of the other''. It doesn't work like that... these are natural processes. Such profane, ill-conceived analogies are not appropriate.

There could be proof tomorrow that there was no God, and people would still choose to believe in one because it's a comforting thought for them, so no matter what I say, you will always believe in your God. I'm pleased that you have such faith.

I would much rather believe in the harmony and beauty of the natural, scientific universe devoid of mythological deities than to believe in one made in 7 days by a giant, angry ghost that wants everybody to worship him ;)

Oh, and believing in 'evolution' is not religion. I live my life the way I want, I believe what I want and I certainly don't let a bad translation of a Hebrew fairytale dictate what I should and shouldn't do.


so, you think I'm as wrong as I think you are. I'm not interested in convincing you of my ideas. I posted a few thoughts on my point of view. I don't know it all, but I have experienced enough to know. I don't need to be told how wrong I am because you don't agree. It's an " agree to disagree" situation. I admire your commitment and understanding.

__________________________________________________ ___________

One thing about the flaws in the body and the universe....according to my Christian opinion based on my knowledge of the Bible....God's creation was perfect. It wasn't until Sin entered the world through Adam's disobedience that these things were corrupted..

And God doesn't kill people, satan does. " he came to kill, steal, and destroy." He's peaceful and loving because he forgives Sin based on the Blood sacrifice Of Jesus on the Cross. He paid the penalty we could never earn or pay ourselves.


Obviously if you don't beleive in God, the above is all moot.

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

5 Star, I do! I just refrained from quotes because that seldom accomplishes anything when there is a "prove it" thing going on.
If nothing else, then I have simply this to say to everyone - I would rather believe, die, and find out there is no god, than to not believe, die, and find out there is.
that's all. bye guys! I still love ya all!

[navyguy]

gosh...i so didnt mean to start an evolution vs. creation debate. I was just merely stating how i can't stand how alot of people (which are mainly evolutionists) view and state scientific THEORIES as scientific LAWS.

For the argument of faith. Its the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Im going to use Christianity as an example. I am a Christian. If I said "I believe in Jesus, but I could be wrong because there are so many other "religions" out there" where is my faith? do i really have any if i think in that manner?

I am so very not interfaithist and i HATE saying this but on something that Jon said in his 3rd post, he doesn't know of any religion that takes their teachings as theory but law. Well faith is the essence of religion. If a Christian thought "Jesus, maybe" they wouldn't be a Christian, if a Muslim thought "Allah, maybe" then they wouldn't be a Muslim, so that argument is null and void.

So again, my post was not intended to be a creationism vs. evolution debate

[notsolost42]

Can we finally get off the theology kick and get back to L----O----S----T!!!!!

[5starboss]

If your God is so peaceful, loving and forgiving, then why on earth were so many murdered, tortured and who knows what else, during the crusades and inquisition? You died if you didn't accept one particular way of thinking. It just never made sense to me that you would kill someone because they did not believe in your peaceful God.
....

it doesn't make sense and isn't what the Bible teaches...

the Crusades was a war for controlling and conquering land that was done under the guise of "christianity"

[Anton]

If your God is so peaceful, loving and forgiving, then why on earth were so many murdered, tortured and who knows what else, during the crusades and inquisition? You died if you didn't accept one particular way of thinking. It just never made sense to me that you would kill someone because they did not believe in your peaceful God.
I really don't abide by any structured religion. That's not to say I don't believe in some kind of higher power. I just don't know if there is and what it is if it does exist. I was raised to question everything; to be thoughtful and inquisative. That's why learning and understanding are my religion in a sense. I dance to the beat of my own drummer. If a day goes by without my having learned something I am truely sadened so I look for something new each day. I live my life by my own code of ethics and how I would want others to treat me. When I have the least, I give the most. I do not force my beliefs down other peoples throats. I accept people for who they are and what they are and have learned over my many years that you cannot really change anyone, they must change themselves. I have learned to accept all different ways of thinking and to try and be nonjudgemental.
To Each, His/Her Own.

OK, this will be my one and only post on this thread, and I am posting this not speaking out for eather side, only attempting to clear up this issue with fact, not personal beleafe.
The murders, tortures etc. were not committed by god, but rather by people who claimed to be fallowing in his word. it is said in the bible (and I am speaking fact not opinion) that man is lead by his desires and that he desires power.
the point that I am making is that any man can do something and say he was told to do it, but that dosen't mean he was, just that he claim's that he was. God say's in the bible to lead by a pessful example, and to help people to come to his home. the sinse that you speak of did occer, but, (if you reed the bible) god did not call for the masicars, they happened the human greed, nothing els.

[ortrules]

For the argument of faith. Its the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Im going to use Christianity as an example. I am a Christian. If I said "I believe in Jesus, but I could be wrong because there are so many other "religions" out there" where is my faith? do i really have any if i think in that manner?

Can I ask you a question? I don't mean to pry or extend this conversation beyond what you intended, but why are you Christian? Is it because your parents are Christian and that's how you were brought up? Or did you one day make a conscious choice the Christianity was the religion for you after comparing it to the other religions?

[ortrules]

OK, this will be my one and only post on this thread, and I am posting this not speaking out for eather side, only attempting to clear up this issue with fact, not personal beleafe.
The murders, tortures etc. were not committed by god, but rather by people who claimed to be fallowing in his word. it is said in the bible (and I am speaking fact not opinion) that man is lead by his desires and that he desires power.
the point that I am making is that any man can do something and say he was told to do it, but that dosen't mean he was, just that he claim's that he was. God say's in the bible to lead by a pessful example, and to help people to come to his home. the sinse that you speak of did occer, but, (if you reed the bible) god did not call for the masicars, they happened the human greed, nothing els.

I like this Anton, and I agree. God gets a bad rep when bad things happen in the world. I'm not saying I necessarily believe in God, but everyone seems to blame Him when things go wrong.

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

**enters thread. stops in tracks**
OH, MAN! WE'RE STILL HERE????!!!:D

[notsolost42]

I like this Anton, and I agree. God gets a bad rep when bad things happen in the world. I'm not saying I necessarily believe in God, but everyone seems to blame Him when things go wrong.

Mankind uses the idea of God to make up for his own short comings. Sometimes it is just incomprehensible for us to understand the how and why things happen. It is useful for our brains to have this safety net of sorts. It's like a woman and childbirth. Childbirth is H -- L but a woman eventually forgets all of the sickness and PAIN. This is how the brain copes with it so we will keep having children and renewing our species.

[5starboss]

Mankind uses the idea of God to make up for his own short comings. Sometimes it is just incomprehensible for us to understand the how and why things happen. It is useful for our brains to have this safety net of sorts. It's like a woman and childbirth. Childbirth is H -- L but a woman eventually forgets all of the sickness and PAIN. This is how the brain copes with it so we will keep having children and renewing our species.

Is this what you've discovered?, or did you hear this from some else or read it in a book? I'm just wondering...I'm not tyring to say you're right or wrong, but I'm aware of this line of logical thinking that explains the need for God.....

[notsolost42]

Is this what you've discovered?, or did you hear this from some else or read it in a book? I'm just wondering...I'm not tyring to say you're right or wrong, but I'm aware of this line of logical thinking that explains the need.....

The need for what?

[lostie108]

i am now thinking that after reading and keeping an open mind here on this thread that we may have been created. i do feel that the human body really syncs up better with being created it is a lot like then again its completely possible we just evolved . but what if we are the artificial intelligence put here by an advanced civilization to see if this world is habitable for them and really every creature is sending what it sees through their eyes kinda like a t.v. program and sending it to the motherland wherever that may be . idk what do you guys think about this crackpot theory .

[notsolost42]

i am now thinking that after reading and keeping an open mind here on this thread that we may have been created. i do feel that the human body really syncs up better with being created it is a lot like then again its completely possible we just evolved . but what if we are the artificial intelligence put here by an advanced civilization to see if this world is habitable for them and really every creature is sending what it sees through their eyes kinda like a t.v. program and sending it to the motherland wherever that may be . idk what do you guys think about this crackpot theory .

Actually, it's not a crackpot theory at all. There are credible scientists that theorize the possibility that life on earth began from bacterial contamination on a meteor way back when. They say, it may have been a piece of Mars as the red planet was struck by a very large meteor which caused pieces of it to be catapulted into space. That is one very important reason we are on Mars now and searching for water (which we have found exists in the form of ice under the surface) and other anomalies. Where there's water, there's life. That applies anywhere on this planet so it quite possibly holds true anywhere else that is similar. Afterall, the entire universe is made up of the same chemical elements. Just like we are. We are all made up of star dust. It's all very interesting stuff.
You never know....

[5starboss]

The need for what?

sorry i fixed it.:o

[5starboss]

Actually, what you claim couldn't be further from the truth. .....Funny how you claim the big bang is not reproducable, because that's exactly what scientists have begun doing now. :D

good luck with that.


These have been debunked many, many, many times by scientists. Google. (Though you won't, I know).

you are a true know-it-all:rolleyes:

That's because creationists don't actually understand evolution. They can't start believing in something they don't understand.

former professors of evolution suddenly don't understand things?

Such a claim is laughable to anybody with an IQ above room temperature, to anybody who has even a basic understanding of biology and physics. The religulous frequently teach this to their flock. I've heard it many times.
Chaos never produces order.

It took over 15 billion years for life as we know it to evolve and exist. So to use the analogies you did, shows how completely false and misleading the point you make is.

The world is raw, primal and natural. It is mud and lakes and deserts. It is largely inhabitable (nice one God, should've thought it through a bit more!) and it is round because of gravity, like every other planet. This is nothing even equivalent to an airliner being made from parts whisked together. That would be like me saying ''the chances of you being born, from a fertilised egg are equivalent to me taking a bunch of marbles and throwing them and having them land one on top of the other''. It doesn't work like that... these are natural processes. Such profane, ill-conceived analogies are not appropriate.
If you read what I wrote, I was refering to the ODDS of such things happening...
There could be proof tomorrow that there was no God, and people would still choose to believe in one because it's a comforting thought for them, so no matter what I say, you will always believe in your God. I'm pleased that you have such faith.
thanks, very knid of you

I would much rather believe in the harmony and beauty of the natural, scientific universe devoid of mythological deities than to believe in one made in 7 days by a giant, angry ghost that wants everybody to worship him ;)

Oh, and believing in 'evolution' is not religion. I live my life the way I want, I believe what I want and I certainly don't let a bad translation of a Hebrew fairytale dictate what I should and shouldn't do.
COLOR="DarkOrange"]that's a low blow[/COLOR]:(


John 3:17...why do most people only know about 3:16...

[navyguy]

Can I ask you a question? I don't mean to pry or extend this conversation beyond what you intended, but why are you Christian? Is it because your parents are Christian and that's how you were brought up? Or did you one day make a conscious choice the Christianity was the religion for you after comparing it to the other religions?

I grew up in a non-practicing Catholic home. I would not have considered myself a Christian at that point. When I joined the Navy and got to my first command I was a suicidal nut job. I met a man at work that gave me a Bible study and brought me to church. I then understood John 3:5 and got baptized the Bible way. 1 year later I was born of the Spirit, receiving the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in other tongues. I have taken "world religion" in college, and have studied other faiths outside of that.

I am a Christian because I have EXPERIENCED the new birth the Bible speaks of, and my eyes have seen some things I cannot deny seeing.

[lostie108]

Actually, it's not a crackpot theory at all. There are credible scientists that theorize the possibility that life on earth began from bacterial contamination on a meteor way back when. They say, it may have been a piece of Mars as the red planet was struck by a very large meteor which caused pieces of it to be catapulted into space. That is one very important reason we are on Mars now and searching for water (which we have found exists in the form of ice under the surface) and other anomalies. Where there's water, there's life. That applies anywhere on this planet so it quite possibly holds true anywhere else that is similar. Afterall, the entire universe is made up of the same chemical elements. Just like we are. We are all made up of star dust. It's all very interesting stuff.
You never know....

thanks notso , i was just ranting thought it sounded plausible . but just didn't know thanks for the boost.

[notsolost42]

sorry i fixed it.:o

I don't understand how what I said explains a need for a God. I thought what I said was pretty straigh forward and clear. The human psyche has a need. It's the mind protecting itself so you don't go crazy. Like I said, think of a woman and childbirth. Honey, if I knew before what I found out after I probably wouldn't have had a child! LOL!!!
I believe in facts. I believe in science and proof of theories. I am open minded enough to consider various theories when they are based in some kind of substantial evidence. There are many things we cannot prove. You certainly cannot give me proof that God exists. It is your faith. I am not knocking it at all. If it is what you need in your like, then good for you. I am happy that you have found what you require from life. But, it is not the same for everyone. Not everyone can be placed in a mold or made into some cookie cutter design where one size fits all and if you don't believe you're no good. That, I cannot stand. Everyone deserves to believe what they choose. One religion is not better or more true than another. Everyone is entitled. Isn't that exactly what our very forefathers faught for in this country? Didn't the pilgrims come here to the new world because of religious persecution in there own country?

[beachblinkette]

Live and let live used to be more of a theme in our country-the USA. However it seems that lately I see that I need to be aware of those who do not live by that same creed and want to destroy those of us who choose to worship God as we believe Him to be from the Scriptures, our experience, our individual spiritual enlightenment and so on. They want to dictate and to control but mostly to destroy. I'm not talking about differing opinions here on this thread. How you live is the best argument for what you believe.
After 911, the time of live and let live has to be reevaluated. Terrorist forces ( a political and theological ideology) with their homicidal mass murderers exist! Their minions are moving against the live and let live philosophy. Those who refuse to accept their belief system are completely and unequivocally worthy of death. They have no qualms killing their own kind so why should they feel concern over what they do to us? Their own religion seemingly has no power or incentive to censure what they do. My eyes have been opened to the very real threat that these Islamic extremists are a menace to us and to our way of life. Keep informed, whatever you believe, we are not out of the woods, yet, nor will we ever soon be. If you have a faith, keep to it. What is coming is hard to predict.

[notsolost42]

Live and let live used to be more of a theme in our country-the USA. However it seems that lately I see that I need to be aware of those who do not live by that same creed and want to destroy those of us who choose to worship God as we believe Him to be from the Scriptures, our experience, our individual spiritual enlightenment and so on. They want to dictate and to control but mostly to destroy. I'm not talking about differing opinions here on this thread. How you live is the best argument for what you believe.
After 911, the time of live and let live has to be reevaluated. Terrorist forces ( a political and theological ideology) with their homicidal mass murderers exist! Their minions are moving against the live and let live philosophy. Those who refuse to accept their belief system are completely and unequivocally worthy of death. They have no qualms killing their own kind so why should they feel concern over what they do to us? Their own religion seemingly has no power or incentive to censure what they do. My eyes have been opened to the very real threat that these Islamic extremists are a menace to us and to our way of life. Keep informed, whatever you believe, we are not out of the woods, yet, nor will we ever soon be. If you have a faith, keep to it. What is coming is hard to predict.

Unforunately, the human race has been plagued by religious wars for centuries. I believe that it is the single most often sighted cause of war. Either religion or territory.
My thoughts are that if I begin to change my way of life out of fear, well then, they have already won. I do not, nor have I ever believed, that we should so easily just give up our Constitutional Rights and protections for the sake of "safety." Isn't that exactly what we are arguing? Why should I let the government listen in on my conversations, or come into my home without a warrant, or any other intrusion with the excuse of terrorism? Understand something, I am Jewish and have felt threats and persecution most of my life. I spent my childhood in the south. Not the best combination, southern Jew. Like how many Israeli's feel, I will not change my way of life. Of course I believe in being cautious. It is a dangerous world. But my neighborhood is also dangerous with gangs, etc. So, it is natural to be careful.
The world has never been a "garden of Eden" as far as safe and cozy. I guess I am also very cynical! Such is life!

[5starboss]

I don't understand how what I said explains a need for a God. I thought what I said was pretty straigh forward and clear. The human psyche has a need. It's the mind protecting itself so you don't go crazy. Like I said, think of a woman and childbirth. Honey, if I knew before what I found out after I probably wouldn't have had a child! LOL!!!
I believe in facts. I believe in science and proof of theories. I am open minded enough to consider various theories when they are based in some kind of substantial evidence. There are many things we cannot prove. You certainly cannot give me proof that God exists. It is your faith. I am not knocking it at all. If it is what you need in your like, then good for you. I am happy that you have found what you require from life. But, it is not the same for everyone. Not everyone can be placed in a mold or made into some cookie cutter design where one size fits all and if you don't believe you're no good. That, I cannot stand. Everyone deserves to believe what they choose. One religion is not better or more true than another. Everyone is entitled. Isn't that exactly what our very forefathers faught for in this country? Didn't the pilgrims come here to the new world because of religious persecution in there own country?


sorry if my thoughts are scatterbrained, i'm pretty busy and usually have 2-3 irons in the fire while I try to type. You are right, i was refering to what you were saying about the human psyche needing God or creating a need for God. That's a good way to put it.

thanks for the info. i agree with you, excellent post.

[Archangel-Player]

"Unforunately, the human race has been plagued by religious wars for centuries. "


That is certenly true. The reason being is that man chose to play God for him self instead of realising that God never intended there to be a religion. Because the walk with God is differnt for every man. Every man will experance God differnt. So no man is closer to God then another. That is why God said join together and be strong or be devided and fall. Much like Jack said in Lost. Live together or die alone.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe that it is the single most often sighted cause of war. Either religion or territory.

Very true and further proves my point above. It's a universal truth that man is farther powerful united together then to step aside alone and rule the world.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

"My thoughts are that if I begin to change my way of life out of fear, well then, they have already won. I do not, nor have I ever believed, that we should so easily just give up our Constitutional Rights and protections for the sake of "safety." Isn't that exactly what we are arguing?"

Most on this thread are arguing over religious beleaf the very thing That was said that would divide man. And your right. You should never change your ways because your scared or that a book told you to or that someone bullyed you to. But rather it was what your heart desired. Your reason for being put on this world is not up for anyone or any book to decided but your own walk in life and what you discover in it. Only you can choose that. It's your free will and if people would read the Bible instead of realiying on what people say. It even saids that.
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[5starboss]

^

well put AAPlayer

[notsolost42]

"Unforunately, the human race has been plagued by religious wars for centuries. "


That is certenly true. The reason being is that man chose to play God for him self instead of realising that God never intended there to be a religion. Because the walk with God is differnt for every man. Every man will experance God differnt. So no man is closer to God then another. That is why God said join together and be strong or be devided and fall. Much like Jack said in Lost. Live together or die alone.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe that it is the single most often sighted cause of war. Either religion or territory.

Very true and further proves my point above. It's a universal truth that man is farther powerful united together then to step aside alone and rule the world.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

"My thoughts are that if I begin to change my way of life out of fear, well then, they have already won. I do not, nor have I ever believed, that we should so easily just give up our Constitutional Rights and protections for the sake of "safety." Isn't that exactly what we are arguing?"

Most on this thread are arguing over religious beleaf the very thing That was said that would divide man. And your right. You should never change your ways because your scared or that a book told you to or that someone bullyed you to. But rather it was what your heart desired. Your reason for being put on this world is not up for anyone or any book to decided but your own walk in life and what you discover in it. Only you can choose that. It's your free will and if people would read the Bible instead of realiying on what people say. It even saids that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well put! We are all unique individuals. It should just be a humanity kind of thing to take care of each other and pay it forward. Things like that should be natural as a person not something you have read about or preached to about. You should learn these things as a child and pass it on to your children. Our unique qualities, whether good or bad, are what makes us human. I am not a follower or much of a joiner. It was a big deal for me to post on a forum. I am a very private person. You all are wonderful, easy to "speak to." And, besides, we all have Lost in common. And common bonds hold people together but the sharing of differences are what enlightens us and opens our minds to new things! We should never be so closed minded and rigid that only one way is the right way.

[beachblinkette]

I think I'm advocating prudence not fear. It is only wise to pay attention to the forces that be just like your awareness of gangs, etc. Fear alone is not necessarily a productive motivator as it it can skew one's thinking. I am not Jewish, but I have spent 2 months in the state of Israel and saw little old grandmother types give up their seat on the bus so some young military person with an automatic machine gun slung over their shoulder could sit down! I call that a survival mode that's deep in the heart and mind. Israelis face a real threat and have to do that which insures their survival. I'm only saying that we all need to be aware, informed, and dedicated to the survival of our way of life in the country that has given us so much. Call it what you will. So, Notso, can we still be friends? Hope so!!

[notsolost42]

I think I'm advocating prudence not fear. It is only wise to pay attention to the forces that be just like your awareness of gangs, etc. Fear alone is not necessarily a productive motivator as it it can skew one's thinking. I am not Jewish, but I have spent 2 months in the state of Israel and saw little old grandmother types give up their seat on the bus so some young military person with an automatic machine gun slung over their shoulder could sit down! I call that a survival mode that's deep in the heart and mind. Israelis face a real threat and have to do that which insures their survival. I'm only saying that we all need to be aware, informed, and dedicated to the survival of our way of life in the country that has given us so much. Call it what you will. So, Notso, can we still be friends? Hope so!!

Oh Beach, I do agree with you! I am just not willing to abdicate my rights out of a fear of terrorism. That is a threat that will be with us forever. It is a generational threat. We will never be able to eliminate terrorists completely. Like a Hydra, more heads will grow back! LOL!!!
By the way, that little old granny on the bus probably gave up her seat out of respect for the person in the military as would any of us. I don't call that survival mode, so to speak. All I meant was that Israeli's still go to the pizza restaurant that was blown up, or to the nightclubs, ride the bus, etc. The way of life has not changed. No one sits at home in fear. No one stops living from fear. You are very lucky to have visited such a beautiful and culturally rich area. I imagine you went to Jerusalem? That is such a meaningful place for many, many cultures. I believe it is meant to be shared by all because of that reason and not fought over.
Of course we're still friends! Silly Beach!

[beachblinkette]

Oh Beach, I do agree with you! I am just not willing to abdicate my rights out of a fear of terrorism. That is a threat that will be with us forever. It is a generational threat. We will never be able to eliminate terrorists completely. Like a Hydra, more heads will grow back! LOL!!!
By the way, that little old granny on the bus probably gave up her seat out of respect for the person in the military as would any of us. I don't call that survival mode, so to speak. All I meant was that Israeli's still go to the pizza restaurant that was blown up, or to the nightclubs, ride the bus, etc. The way of life has not changed. No one sits at home in fear. No one stops living from fear. You are very lucky to have visited such a beautiful and culturally rich area. I imagine you went to Jerusalem? That is such a meaningful place for many, many cultures. I believe it is meant to be shared by all because of that reason and not fought over.
Of course we're still friends! Silly Beach!
Phew! That was close one! Glad we're A-OK! Yes I did go to Jerusalem and was very enthralled with Israel as a country. I must say that I was never afraid not for even one minute.

I worked as a volunteer on an archaeological dig at Tel Dor in the Northern part of Israel. Not bragging, it was hellishly hard work!! Israel is so rich in history, (Neolithic, Iron Age, Persian,Byzantine Greek, Roman)--more so than I ever imagined. Tel Dor was an old Phoenician port and one of King Solomon's ports, too. We traveled all over Israel, even the Golan Heights. It was a once in a lifetime event as I do not have the money or "muscle" to work and to travel like that now. There are opportunities for people who want to volunteer to work on a dig. Just look them up in the BAR {Biblical Archaeology Review}.

They are a very devout and resourceful people. I could write a book about my experiences there--all good ones.But don't want to bore people! My real job is to write strange lyrics to Christmas tunes and devise endless word-buffets of questionable value!! LOL And everybody agrees with that!!!:D