THIS is VERY interesting!!!!

[Monkey-Hands]

This theory should not be read if you have not been following season 5 spoilers.

OK, so I think this is one of the most interesting ideas I've read so far.
NotSo, this may be something for you.

I put forth the theory that turning the donkey wheel had not one, but at least two very distinct effects.

Ever since the first indications surfaced, through spoilers, that the island moved in time as well as in space (as far as the fourth season is concerned, we can only be sure that it vanished), I wondered what would the implications be. What would the rules of the show be?

If it where only a matter of the island having been sent elsewhere in time, whatever are the contents of the island would remain intact in that new destination in time. I´ll put a very simple and accesible example: Back to the Future. When Marty goes back in time in the Delorean, the Delorean surfaces in a different point in time. But Marty, everything inside the vehicle, and indeed the vehicle itself, remain as they were before they moved in time. Only the time/space location has changed; the object which traveled is exactly as it were before.

So when spoilers started rolling in (I will not specify, but if you have been reading spoilers, you don´t need me to), clearly suggesting that the actual contents of the island had changed to reflect whatever time period they arrived to, I was really confused. Certainly the writers of Lost wouldn´t overlook something this big. Moving the entire island would entail having the EXACT same 2004 island, with all it´s 2004 contents, arriving at a diferent time period. This means: no active Dharma, no young Rousseau and her crew, no Ethan Rom still alive, no Swan Station. Basically nothing that wouldn´t be there to begin with, if the island hadn´t moved.

I´ll try to keep this short, and go straight to my point. Two different events were triggered with the movement of the donkey wheel:

a) The island moved to a different time/space location, with it´s constitution unchanged, BUT

b) The island´s conscience itself became unstuck in time... right before the eyes of all of it´s inhabitants.

Throught the series, the island has been consistently portrayed as having a consciousness. I won´t clutter this theory with evidence of this: for the sake of the theory, let´s take as a fact that the island is not necessarily is alive, is not necessarily a being or an entity, but at the very least has a consciousness. Well, why is this important to us? Take this exchange between Desmond and Faraday, regarding Eloise, from the Constant:

DESMOND: So you, you sent her to the future!

DAN: No, no, no. Her consciousness. Her mind.

On the season four DVD, Damon explains that Faraday was introduced to the series, amongst other reasons, to relay to the viewers what the time-travel rules in the show are. It has been established that, if it is through the effects of electromagnetism, it is specifically the consciousness that will travel.

Bottomline...
I cannot even begin to imagine as to how the actual, physical displacement of the island (a first for the series) would have triggered also a consciousness displacement as we as viewers are now familiar with... except now it´s not Desmond or Minkowski, but the island itself.

What is the scope of the consciousness of the island? What would it encompass? How about... pretty much anything that has happened throught it´s history? What kind of visions would the inhabitants of the island perceive if the island where to jump spontaneously through what is stored in it´s memory?

I think it would have the mysterious capacity to reenact any scenario as it happened, making it physically tangible for the duration of the jump. It would engulf the inhabitants of the island in a shifting, dreamlike, chaotic, and potentially vey dangerous landscape. Indeed a scenario for very bad things to happen...


http://theoriesonlost.blogspot.com/2008/12/island-sentience-unstuck-in-time-by.html

What do you say?

[XmasDVD]

Now that I am over being dizzy from that read....

I understand what you are saying - if the Island simply moved in time, all the events that happened should be as they are - the hatch exploded, the Others village blown up, etc. but the wheel changed the events too.

[Monkey-Hands]

Now that I am over being dizzy from that read....

I understand what you are saying - if the Island simply moved in time, all the events that happened should be as they are - the hatch exploded, the Others village blown up, etc. but the wheel changed the events too.

From what I understand is that he means that the island's consciousness has been sent back in time, however that may be possible.

[boutte]

From what I understand is that he means that the island's consciousness has been sent back in time, however that may be possible.
But the Island did vanish so it also moved physically. Was it in a different location before Desmond turned the key and it returned there?

[ortrules]

This could be right. If the island did move back in time - that wouldn't cause anyone or anything to suddenly resurrect, that's not how it works. If that was the case, everyone would revert back to their past selves and forget everything that happened.

The other thought is when the island moved, it moved in space and time so that it merged with a former version of the island - like a time when it was inhabited by Dharma. Almost like two dimensions have merged into one.

[notsolost42]

Yes, the island has reset in spacetime dimension. Spacetime is one thing. Space and time are not seperate entities. I have been saying this forever. This is Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity. When the island moved in spacetime dimension it also appeared to move physically because it moved dimensionally. Therefore, yes the island has moved in spacetime. It has reset. Haven't I been saying this?

Please read my last post on the thread Season 5 Promo Picture. I have mentioned that in the cast photo they have staged the old with the new. In other words a merging of both. If you look carefully at the background of the photo, the buildings have what appear to be water towers on them. They are not water towers at all. They are huts like the ones occupied by the Others in the fake village that they kept Michael in. There are exactly eight of them. Another tell that it is a clue. Check it out. That's why we won't know where we are or when we are, as TPTB say.
Let's not forget one other important timetravel fact we have learned. When they do go back, either consciousness or whatever, they do not remember the future because it has not happened yet. They may have fleeting memories but that's it. Flashes of something, deja vous. This is gonna be one heck of a fun season!

[ortrules]

Let's not forget one other important timetravel fact we have learned. When they do go back, either consciousness or whatever, they do not remember the future because it has not happened yet. They may have fleeting memories but that's it. Flashes of something, deja vous. This is gonna be one heck of a fun season!

I don't think this is the case in this situation. When Desmond was experiencing his consciousness jumping back and forth, he went between 1996 and the islands present date, a span of 5 years. If those remaining on the island experience the same thing or have no recollection of the future, which would be a span of 15-20 years, most of them would have the minds of children or teenagers.

[notsolost42]

I don't think this is the case in this situation. When Desmond was experiencing his consciousness jumping back and forth, he went between 1996 and the islands present date, a span of 5 years. If those remaining on the island experience the same thing or have no recollection of the future, which would be a span of 15-20 years, most of them would have the minds of children or teenagers.

Ort, it has been established by TPTB in the show that you do not recall the future when traveling into the past because it has not happened yet. They have only shown very brief flashes or deja vous effects. If those that are on the island are reset and sent back to prepurge DI then they will not remember what it was like in the future as well; that they were stranded on the island from a plane crash. They may experience flashes, etc. but that would be about it. As for them becoming children or teenages again, well no. If it is their consciousness that travels into the past with their physical bodies dragged along for the ride, then however old they were when they went back is how old their consciousness would still be. They do not loose years because they travel into the past. You do not become younger because you travel into the past. If their consciousness is that of a 20 something then that's what travels back. Think about what scientists theorize about space travel. When traveling at lightspeed one does not age. Those that are left behind will age normally. That's due to Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity. This is accepted by the scientific world. The person traveling at the speed of light would appear, to the bystander watching from Earth, to be traveling back in time and then to actually stop moving at a certain point. But, obviously they do not. They are not traveling back in time, they are not regressing in age. They are just traveling at the speed of light.

[ortrules]

Ort, it has been established by TPTB in the show that you do not recall the future when traveling into the past because it has not happened yet.

Not true. When Desmond turned the fail safe key we saw him experiencing past events all over again - with complete consciousness of what happened in the future and being on the island. In that case, his 2004 consciousness slipped back to a past date.

When Desmond had his side effects leaving the island, his 1996 consciousness jumped into his present day consciousness, which is why he couldn't remember anything past 1996. However, he was clearly there in the present day, late 2004. He certainly wasn't younger in 2004, but his mind was.

So there are only two possibilities we learn from the case of Desmond. The first possibility is that they mimic Desmond's first experience and remember the future. But if, like you say, these people don't remember the future events, then clearly their consciousness from 20 years ago has taken over - which leaves many of them with the consciousness of children or teenagers.

[notsolost42]

Not true. When Desmond turned the fail safe key we saw him experiencing past events all over again - with complete consciousness of what happened in the future and being on the island. In that case, his 2004 consciousness slipped back to a past date.

When Desmond had his side effects leaving the island, his 1996 consciousness jumped into his present day consciousness, which is why he couldn't remember anything past 1996. However, he was clearly there in the present day, late 2004. He certainly wasn't younger in 2004, but his mind was.

So there are only two possibilities we learn from the case of Desmond. The first possibility is that they mimic Desmond's first experience and remember the future. But if, like you say, these people don't remember the future events, then clearly their consciousness from 20 years ago has taken over - which leaves many of them with the consciousness of children or teenagers.

When the Purple Sky Event occured, TPTB said that the island did not travel in time but something DID happen to it. As for Desmond and what happened to him, I had posted multiple times that my theory was he was bounced back and forth in time from present on the island when he turned the key back. I described it like a pendulum swinging back and forth. So, I don't recall Des remembering destinctly when he was in the past about the future. I recall that there were things that triggered a faint memory for him. For instance, the microwave beeping. Desmind didn't seem to have any direct knowledge of the future.

[Brother Desmond]

As for Desmond and what happened to him, I had posted multiple times that my theory was he was bounced back and forth in time from present on the island when he turned the key back. I described it like a pendulum swinging back and forth. So, I don't recall Des remembering destinctly when he was in the past about the future. I recall that there were things that triggered a faint memory for him. For instance, the microwave beeping. Desmind didn't seem to have any direct knowledge of the future.

I think you are right when you say things triggered faint memories for him. But I also think he eventually pieced everything together and remembered the future.

In the episode "Flashes Before Your Eyes" he goes to Charles Widmore to ask for permission to marry Penny. After he is rejected, he walks outside to find Charlie singing on the street. He knows Charlie's name and says he saw him in the hatch with the computer, the button and that they were on the Island, to which Charlie says that are on an island, England. From there Desmond remembers that it begins to rain, and later in a bar he explains to his physicist friend Donovan what happens next, (the result of the soccer game and the bartender being hit with a cricket bat).

[notsolost42]

I think you are right when you say things triggered faint memories for him. But I also think he eventually pieced everything together and remembered the future.

In the episode "Flashes Before Your Eyes" he goes to Charles Widmore to ask for permission to marry Penny. After he is rejected, he walks outside to find Charlie singing on the street. He knows Charlie's name and says he saw him in the hatch with the computer, the button and that they were on the Island, to which Charlie says that are on an island, England. From there Desmond remembers that it begins to rain, and later in a bar he explains to his physicist friend Donovan what happens next, (the result of the soccer game and the bartender being hit with a cricket bat).

Yes, yes, you are absolutely right. I think I also referred to that episode as The Constant somewhere on here! LOL! I can't trust my memory anymore. Anyway, I wonder if he finally had that total recollection because he was bouncing back and forth in spacetime or there was another reason. I am going to guess that because he kept going back and forth relatively quickly it may have jelled for him. IDK. Wasn't that the epi where he went to his physicist friend and asked him about time travel? And the bar and the soccer game on tv? He did remember those events. Maybe we are looking at two different things here. ??????? is all I can say! LOL!

I just wanted to add that I just read Lostpedia Flashes Before Your Eyes to refresh my memory. Okay, Des was only having deja vous like memories of what had happened in his future and they were all set off by events, signs, sounds, etc. that triggered it. For instance, the beeping of the microwave, the delivery person at Widmore's building asking for room 815, the sailboat in Widmore's office, etc. When he went outside and saw Charlie playing the guitar and said he knew him that they were on an island together he had another flash of Charlie at the computer and the failsafe event. That was when it all kicked into place and he said it was going to rain. That was the moment that he remembered the future. Prior to that it was all familiar things that triggered vague and foggy memories. So, his stream of consciousness was incomplete until he remembered the moment when he was thrust into the past. At that point the two times, past and future were put together and it was clear in his memory. He had to remember the trigger event. That may be a key here. Think about it.

[Archangel-Player]

This could be right. If the island did move back in time - that wouldn't cause anyone or anything to suddenly resurrect, that's not how it works. If that was the case, everyone would revert back to their past selves and forget everything that happened.

The other thought is when the island moved, it moved in space and time so that it merged with a former version of the island - like a time when it was inhabited by Dharma. Almost like two dimensions have merged into one.
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My thoughts exactly. Good point on If the the island had been reset into time. Then everyone else would have been reverted. I to beleave it's more of the case that the present island has some way merged with a past verson of the island most likely when the Dharma was still around.

[navyguy]

OK. Going back to my post on THEORY being THEORY. Thats what time travel is. TPTB can do WHATEVER they want in regards to time travel because of this

[notsolost42]

OK. Going back to my post on THEORY being THEORY. Thats what time travel is. TPTB can do WHATEVER they want in regards to time travel because of this

Well, not quite. They are staying within the parameters of things like the Kerr Metric, Einstein's Feild Theory, Einstein's Theory of Special Relativity, the Casimir Effect, Planck's Constant, etc. These are real scientific theories and yes, though they are theories, they are proven mathematically in physics. Oh, I forgot one other very important theory to our mightly losties, that would be Stephen Hawking's String Theory. Many dimensions occupied at the same time by someone...hmmmm, interesting. So, in a way TPTB can do what they want because they have the flexibility as writers but at the same time they are staying fairly true to real science. There are limitations to what they are doing and they are, so far, staying within them.

[ortrules]

Agreed, NotSo. While they are working with time travel theories, I believe they have already discussed exactly how time travel would be handled, what it's limitations are, etc. I don't think they are just making it up as they go.

For instance, they've stressed numerous times how they are constantly aware of paradox events, have already put in place the idea of course correction and that you can't ultimately change the future, etc.

[notsolost42]

Agreed, NotSo. While they are working with time travel theories, I believe they have already discussed exactly how time travel would be handled, what it's limitations are, etc. I don't think they are just making it up as they go.

For instance, they've stressed numerous times how they are constantly aware of paradox events, have already put in place the idea of course correction and that you can't ultimately change the future, etc.

OMG! We agree!!! Yippeeee!!! Mark today on the calendar!!! LOL!!! ;)

[Lupernikas]

as I have been trying to flesh out a theory, this stands out...the conciousness moves, it needs a body to occupy, ideally it's own in a different iteration or along it's own destiny lines...but what if it's own body is dead and gone? Will the losties find themselves being affected by the consciousnesses stored by the island as it becomes 'unstuck'?

[krakup]

as I have been trying to flesh out a theory, this stands out...the conciousness moves, it needs a body to occupy, ideally it's own in a different iteration or along it's own destiny lines...but what if it's own body is dead and gone? Will the losties find themselves being affected by the consciousnesses stored by the island as it becomes 'unstuck'?

this is similar to what i'm thinking about what the whispers could be. people who have become unstuck with no body to reside in

[Lupernikas]

this is similar to what i'm thinking about what the whispers could be. people who have become unstuck with no body to reside in
now there's an idea I hadn't considered! I like it though, it makes a kind of sense...sort of ghosts without really being ghosts, as it were.....