The big thing we missed in the Pilot Episode

[Fuel]

Hey gang,

Was going back thru the series again, and was paying extra attention to the first two episodes that were known as "Pilot 1, and Pilot 2"; AKA the first two hours that aired. I was trying to figure out what the big thing we missed, or hadn't been discussed yet at the time of the seasons DVD release as mentioned in one of the commentary's or special features in said box set.

Well, I think I may have caught it. If you have as well, and haven't mentioned it.. great! If not, have a read of the following and let me know if you think this was the big thing. :)

The second half of the Pilot (Pilot 2), was a Charlie centric episode. In the flashback of Charlie on board good old Flight 815, he is seated somewhat in the rear to middle section of the plane. He is approached by one of the flight attendants (As Charlie seems to have a bit of a twitch, or minor freak out going on, as we all know was a mix of withdrawal and nervousness ). She walks away to the rear of the plane and begins conversing with other attendants and pointing in Charlies direction. Charlie sees this and decides he's gonna get on up out of his seat and bolt.

As it was in Pilot 1, we see Charlie moving towards the front of the plane, passing by Jack and Rose who are seated pretty much in the mid-section of the plane. Charlie continues toward the front of the plane, and enters the bathrooms directly outside, and behind the cockpit of the plane.

OK, this is what I caught, and wanted to bring forward as either something hidden that we were supposed to catch... or.. another continuity error....

- Charlie, whilst in the washroom, takes a hoot off his stash of Heroin. Toss's the stash in the toilet out of fear of getting caught with it on him, while the attendants are banging on the door asking him to come out. The plane takes a huge drop in altitude causing charlie to literally becomes airborne, smashing into the ceiling and falling to the floor.
- The very next scene, is charlie opening the door from the bathroom and crawling on all four to the very first row of seats in the plane, where he gets into a seat and buckles up. Well know what happened next.

- The planes tail section broke off first, seen falling away from the fuselage landing in the water on one side of the island. The front of the plane breaks off next, and one could assume fell to ground in the before or after the fuselage, landing deep in the jungle (not that it makes a difference which fell or hit first), and the fuselage crashed mostly, if not all, on the beach on the other side of the island.

- I know I am going over things most of us already know to death, but the key thing was Charlie, being in the front of the plane. Buckled into a seat directly behind the bathroom, by the cockpit. We see the bathroom he was in again when he, Kate and jack find the nose section and climb up to cockpit to retrieve the Radio. Charlie goes into the same stall and retrieves his un-flushed stash and on several shots, we see their are still many many rows of seats that were in the front section of the plane that separated. Thus, placing Charlie in the front of the plane, or nose-section, that broke off and fell in the Jungle.

Does this make any sense to anybody? Or am I just reading way to deep into another minor production flaw?

Sorry for my ramblings, but I hope you find this interesting.

- Fuel

[Unbridled Pageantry]

That's a very good point, I'd never thought of it that way. Charlie would have had to be in the front of that plane when it crashed. Now that could be a continuity error, but if it's not it's pretty huge. If it was planned that way what does it mean? Was Charlie dead the whole time? Was his destiny to be in the middle section, and when he ran to the front change something?
If that was planned to be that way, it's pretty big.

[Foro777]

It's a "continuity error". After he crawls out the bathroom a cart almost crushes him and he mves out the way. After that he gets up and the camera flashes to a seat where he is buckling himself up.
I always thought it was a quick way of getting him back to his seat in the fuselage rather than showing him run all the way back. That's why he wants to go to the cockpit in the pilot, to get his heroine. If he had crashed in the cockpit section he would just have grabbed it and run out.
This is NOT what we missed. In all honesty I think what we missed is simply not knowing what the shoe is.

[Fuel]

No disrespect intended. But I think I may be right. I just ran Pilot 1 and pilot 2 side by side. (Pilot 1, with Jack talking with Rose. And, Pilot 2, Charlie up in front.) And time wise. He was definitely in the front of the plane. While Charlie was in the bathroom and he hits the roof, is when the tail section broke away from the plane. It was 3 seconds after the tail broke off that we see the Oxygen masks drop from the ceiling for Jack and Rose. this is verified while watching Episode 3 "Tabula Rasa" when we see Kate and the Marshall sitting towards the end of what was left of the fuselage. The Same attendant (Cindy) had just made the announcement on the P.A. that the captain had turned on the fasten your seat belts sign, which can be heard in all 3 episodes.

Why would Charlie, hopped up on the happy powder or not, make the mad dash back towards his seat in the rear of the plane that didn't exist anymore? If you watch these 3 episodes and watch when the tail section breaks away. That's when the masks drop.The fact that Charlie crawls to a seat from being on all four and the that the oxygen masks were already deployed where he was. I think you will get a better comprehension of why I think he was in fact, in the nose section of the plane at the time of the crash.

- Fuel

[John Locke]

A little late for S1 but Agreed somewhat.

[LOSTintheFlood]

Was watching the first episode today and couldn't help but think that Walt's dog has a much larger role on the Island. I was actually thinking that Vincent may really be Jacob. Is it possible that Jacob was not allowed to return to the Island in human form and thus could only come back in the spirit of Vincent. There is little in the way of reincarnation and spirits but just speculating.

Scenes that made me believe this include when Vincent run's past Jack after we see Jack in the woods, and again Vincent is shown watching Jack, Kate, and Charlie on their adventure into the woods to find the cockpit.

[lostie108]

i re watched these pilot episodes last night and there was not a lot i could find . 1. the back of walts shirt has some letters on it not sure if it is a logo or a clue 2. also pretty sure that when walt and john meet for the first time john says walt want to know a secret . but what i noticed was that was their first interactions with each other and john knew his name . the only way this is possible is if he heard michael screaming his name , but it did seem funny . 3. the black cylinder thing next to jacks head when he wakes up . 4. vincent is kinda weird in these episodes . 5. the white tennis shoe in the tree in opening scene. 6. not sure but when the smoke monster was after someone in later episodes i can't recall it knocking down trees , in the pilot whole trees were being knocked down. 7. charlie in the 1st row of seats near cockpit when plane crashed ( or he should have been that is where he strapped in at . )

[Moxy]

I haven't watched the opening episode for some time now, but the knocking down of trees may have been the polar bear.
Like the theory of Charlie potentially being dead/missing his destiny if he went back to the wrong seat.
I have no idea what the white teinnis shoe is and had never noticed the cylinder by Jack's head....now I have a great excuse to watch it again:)

[lostie108]

I haven't watched the opening episode for some time now, but the knocking down of trees may have been the polar bear.
Like the theory of Charlie potentially being dead/missing his destiny if he went back to the wrong seat.
I have no idea what the white teinnis shoe is and had never noticed the cylinder by Jack's head....now I have a great excuse to watch it again:)

Or it could be when they go to the cockpit there is a smoke mark on the side of the plane . could be that smokie took the plane down , probably not though . who knows . watch this episode carefully , i mean if you were to pitch a show and then they give you the o.k. but you have to get the viewers to come back you also in my opinion should have some hint in the pilot as to what is happening i have said this for years now . check it out . also when kate is taking the boots of the dead body there is some writing on the boot i think it said ariat not sure though .

[black&white]

I haven't watched the opening episode for some time now, but the knocking down of trees may have been the polar bear.
Like the theory of Charlie potentially being dead/missing his destiny if he went back to the wrong seat.
I have no idea what the white teinnis shoe is and had never noticed the cylinder by Jack's head....now I have a great excuse to watch it again:)

maybe the tennis shoe is like the landmark marking of a "door"...as in a worm hole to somewhere else....im sure if you are in the woods...you cant say...."look for the gas station on the left"...AND...Jack is on his back....as was Ben in the desert of traveling....maybe???

[lostie108]

maybe the tennis shoe is like the landmark marking of a "door"...as in a worm hole to somewhere else....im sure if you are in the woods...you cant say...."look for the gas station on the left"...AND...Jack is on his back....as was Ben in the desert of traveling....maybe???

see you kinda get it . i mean nwhen jack wakes up he hears nothing , then in a split second bam here is a huge plane crash . maybe it happened to be a time jump and the plane and all of them just appeared . i mean it kinda felt that way . but here is the problem jack was on that plane so if this was a time jump . realistically he would have come across himself i think . i dont know . who knows please tell me . HELP ME!

[FredEx919]

see you kinda get it . i mean nwhen jack wakes up he hears nothing , then in a split second bam here is a huge plane crash . maybe it happened to be a time jump and the plane and all of them just appeared . i mean it kinda felt that way . but here is the problem jack was on that plane so if this was a time jump . realistically he would have come across himself i think . i dont know . who knows please tell me . HELP ME!

I def like this theory, there were a couple points in the pilot where Jack either did or said something wierd. For instance, when Jack, Kate, and Charlie are running from the Smoke monster the first time, Charlie falls and gets his leg caught in a vine. Jack goes back to help him, next thing we see, charlie catches up with Kate but Jack is no where to be found???? When kate later ask him where he was,he kind of hesitates and his reply is "It was right behind me but I jumped into some bushes and it went away". im not sure about that one.

Also in regards to the possibility that the smoke monster crashed the plane, when the survivors first hear the smoke monster on the island they all gather around and look into the jungle as they listen, and Rose states "there is something very familiar about that sound".. She said this as if she had heard the smoke monster before..

[Amp]

how come the smoke monster sounds like a huge machine and never makes those noises again, also what happend to the theory it was a security system, witch it kinda is. Also, why was Jack away from everyone else when they crashed sooo many questions and its cool watching it now that we no what happens

[MikeDaGreek]

how come the smoke monster sounds like a huge machine and never makes those noises again, also what happend to the theory it was a security system, witch it kinda is. Also, why was Jack away from everyone else when they crashed sooo many questions and its cool watching it now that we no what happens

The one thing I caught in the pilot that really seemed wierd was that Jack wakes up in the woods, 10 minutes away from the beach- he later tells Michael that he saw vincent in the woods about 10 minutes in from the beach - with no fuesalge around him only Vincent who was likely in the cargo hold during the flight. While all the other passengers, including Rose who was sitting next to him on the plane, wind up in the water and on the beach. Immedieatly after waking up he finds his way, without confusion and at a dead sprint, to the beach where he immediately starts saving lives.

[Fuel]

Removed this post. Apologies for the rudeness I had here previously.

[Unbridled Pageantry]

One thing is still fact since my original post.

Not one person has attempted to disprove it.

Make your own threads for info. Dont hijack mine for your disinformation.

At first I thought you might have had something there, but watching that episode I think you might be off. Your correct in the time line of everything, but watch when Charlie straps himself back into the seat. When he's going for the seat you can see he's not at the front of the plane and that there's a whole cabin area behind him from the way he just came. So he's not at the front of the plane, they just didn't show his whole journey back to the seat.

[Fuel]

Im really sorry for the snarky post I made. It really came off as me being a real jerk.

[natego]

I think before you all read too much into the Pilot episodes, that we should realize that not all details of the show were completely thought out at the time the pilot was made. Pilots don't always lead to hit shows so you can expect that while the writers may have had an idea of where the show would go, not every detail of the shooting was laid out to be clues of future plot twists. There are certainly things in the Pilot that are clues, but things like where Charlie is sitting, and a shoe hanging from a tree (could simply have been a dead passengers lost shoe during the crash) are relatively hard to expect being important to the plot 5 years later.

[King_Nate]

Did u also notice how charlie spoke "latin" in season 1 when he was with his dope dealer, when they were about 2 set up the fat rich girl 2 get more money 4 more dope, instead he tried 2 sell copymachines, lmao......do u think that was a coincdence too, or is important?

[smthng2dowthlost]

weird i don't remember that part

[losttime]

I think there was more to it when Walt said "Is that Vincent" when we first hear the Smoke Monster in the trees knocking them down. I have a lab also and would never think that noise was coming from her. If I am not mistaking, the wrters already said that the smoke monster has taken on the form of the dog, amongst other things. Just as Ben "called" the smoke monster to do away with the mercenaries, perhaps Christian "called" upon the smoke monster in the form of Vincent to get Jack to begin his work.

[smthng2dowthlost]

The writers said the monster changed forms? The closest I can think of is when the island showed eko yemi

[MikeDaGreek]

In the origional story line for the pilot When Jack, Kate and charlie go to the cockpit Jack gets caught by the smoke monster and killed. It is his body that Kate and charlie find in the tree, not the pilot. Then back on the beach there is supposed to be an important dialog between Kate and Charlie where she asks him why he wanted to go find the cockpit. That is the part of the show where Kate starts to develop into the main heroine of the show. She was supposed to be a business woman who's husband was lost in the tail section. The powers at ABC didn't like the idea of making Jack our hero just to have him killed off halfway through the pilot. So, they re-wrote the script, but had a very very short time to do so. I think the topics broached in this thread are all due to the change in script. Charlie going to the cockpit for his heroine and Kate's terrified reaction when Jack is missing were very important for the development of those characters, so the writers had to fudge things a little to make them work. It wouldn't make sense for charlie to go back to the cockpit if he had time to wrap up his heroin and put it back in his pocket and they couldn't have him flush it. Rewriting the scene the way they did creates a small inaccuracy in regards to the placement of charlies after the crash, but it allowed them maintain the story line without too much rewritting. The same goes with Jack, avoiding the monster by jumping in the bushes is a lot less rewriting than creating an entire scene to explain how he got away

[MrEchoLives]

I have heard the same thing elsewhere. Which leads me to the thought that , if they were willing to kill off jack in the pilot episode, then he cant be the essential hero of the story, I think these guys had thier ending in place when they were writing the pilot. I think they already knew how this thing ends. And I dont know how Jack can be the "hero" and "key" to the story when they were gonna kill him right away.
Yet Only jack knows the ending to this series, as he was the only one to shoot the last scene. So he must be somethin important

[NOIDEAWHATSGOINGON]

Do the producers say that we missed something in "Pilot 1" or "episode 1"? On the DVD, they are listed as Pilot 1 & 2 and then Episode 1. Just curious.

[natego]

Jack can still be essential. You don't think the writers/creators can change their minds at some point in 5 years about the end of the show?

[Mr Hamilton]

I heard an interview with some of the writers/producers a year or two back. They said that they had no idea Lost would create such a huge following and such devoted group of fans. Due to this the details are not as sharp in the early episodes. There are quit a lot of continuity errors and such in season 1 but as the show gathered fans and the lost-mania spread around the net and websites and forum like this one analyzed the show into every tiny bit the producers/writers where much more into the details. If someone had told them that we would analyze a detail on the beach five years later they would probably not believe it or just think we are crazy.

There is a scene with Sawyer and Kate outside Sawyers hut/tent early in the first season where the same people walk by in the far background two or three times. The scene is shot from different angles and cut into the final production leaving some extras in not the EXACT same position at the EXACT same time in every shot. So when Sawyer with his back to the water talks to Kate we see some survivors walk by behind his head down by the ocean, Kate replies and the camera is back on Sawyer who says something while the survivors passes by down by the water, again. I think this happens three times. It has nothing to do with time traveling. Just with the amount of attention to details that is put into a normal, average show and how much is expected and put into Lost in 2009. A scene like that would just never go on air on a Lost episode today.

[SmokeyBear]

i think after watching the episode, when charlie buckels himself back up, the chair he is in is totally different from his original seat. the seat he gets into is much larger and has a console in the middle of the two seats, something that you would expect for a 1st class seat, not a regular coach seat.

[NOIDEAWHATSGOINGON]

[
Yet Only jack knows the ending to this series, as he was the only one to shoot the last scene. So he must be somethin important[/QUOTE]

Have they already shot the last scene, did I miss that?

If so, then that leads in with my theory that when we see Jack laying in the jungle in the opening scene that he is not there because of the crash, but because this is him coming back to the island.

[LissaMarie]

This has been driving me crazy so I spent a little bit of time yesterday trying to find when TPTB said that there was a clue in the first episode so I could hear it for myself. What I did find was an interview on ODI's site with one of the writers of Lost. It was a question in one of those "fan submitted" question / answer sessions. Here is the link:

http://the-odi.blogspot.com/2008/01/q-with-lost-writer-answers-part-2.html

Question #60 was exactly that. What is the big clue in the pilot episode? The writer answered that the big clue was when Charlie asked, "Guys, where are we"?

[krakup]

This has been driving me crazy so I spent a little bit of time yesterday trying to find when TPTB said that there was a clue in the first episode so I could hear it for myself. What I did find was an interview on ODI's site with one of the writers of Lost. It was a question in one of those "fan submitted" question / answer sessions. Here is the link:

http://the-odi.blogspot.com/2008/01/q-with-lost-writer-answers-part-2.html

Question #60 was exactly that. What is the big clue in the pilot episode? The writer answered that the big clue was when Charlie asked, "Guys, where are we"?

u kidding me? ripped off lol

[LissaMarie]

I know...kinda bogus, right?

[krakup]

I know...kinda bogus, right?

unforgivable

[LissaMarie]

And unless "Sawyer were huge" means something to anyone here, it's not an anagram I could crack. Told you it has been driving me crazy!

[krakup]

if thats it, its not a big clue if u ask me , hey but mayb in the context, looking back seems relevant

[Lost Down Under]

One thing I noticed in the first few episodes is that both Jack and John are alone with the Smoke Monster. We have no idea what happened to them when the Smoke Monster was near them.

I got to thinking about the episode in S5 when Rousseau and the man who is Alex's father. Something happened to him to make her distrust him....she said that he had got the sickness. Could he have been taken by the smoke monster? He was lying to her and she knew it. Just makes me think what happened when Jack and John were near the smoke monster.

Also, a question.....how did Kate get to Australia? If she was wanted she would never have been able to leave the US. So how did she get to Australia? I've probably missed it somehow, but if anyone can shed some light on it for me I would be grateful. Ta

[LissaMarie]

I've wondered the same thing about Kate. We know that she was married to a cop in Miami and then she drugged him and took off, right? All I can guess is that she is a resourceful girl and found an alias. She told the farmer in Aussie that her name was Annie so perhaps that was the name she used to get there?! I wondered how she got on the Ajira flight because she wasn't supposed to leave California for 10 years, right?

About Smokie, it seemed that John's spirituality and faith in the island was the result of his meeting with Smokie. I don't recall off hand if Jack had an "eye to eye" (for lack of a better word) encounter with Smokie or not. Funny thing is, I think if you asked Jack if Locke had "the sickness" he would have said yes!

[Lost Down Under]

I've wondered the same thing about Kate. We know that she was married to a cop in Miami and then she drugged him and took off, right? All I can guess is that she is a resourceful girl and found an alias. She told the farmer in Aussie that her name was Annie so perhaps that was the name she used to get there?! I wondered how she got on the Ajira flight because she wasn't supposed to leave California for 10 years, right?

About Smokie, it seemed that John's spirituality and faith in the island was the result of his meeting with Smokie. I don't recall off hand if Jack had an "eye to eye" (for lack of a better word) encounter with Smokie or not. Funny thing is, I think if you asked Jack if Locke had "the sickness" he would have said yes!


A fake passport is probably the only way she would have gotten there....but nothing was mentioned about it. However, the FBI must have known she was in Australia or else why have her picture in a postoffice in some remote Australian town? It probably doesn't mean much, but it is something that has bothered me.

I'm pretty sure we didn't see Jack have a "face to face" with Smokie but he was alone with it. Remember when he helped Charlie when they were running away from the smoke monster? Charlie had his foot caught and "when he turned around Jack wasn't there anymore". Makes me wonder.

[krakup]

A fake passport is probably the only way she would have gotten there....but nothing was mentioned about it. However, the FBI must have known she was in Australia or else why have her picture in a postoffice in some remote Australian town? It probably doesn't mean much, but it is something that has bothered me.

I'm pretty sure we didn't see Jack have a "face to face" with Smokie but he was alone with it. Remember when he helped Charlie when they were running away from the smoke monster? Charlie had his foot caught and "when he turned around Jack wasn't there anymore". Makes me wonder.

do u remember the episode, i'd not noticed that or dont recall

[Trumby]

That was in the first episode of the pilot, krakup.

[razonje]

I am seriously looking forward to rewatching the series after all is said and done. I really have not watched a single rerun. Everything I know is based off memory and message boards lol.

[Erratic Pendulum]

im pretty sure the white tennis shoes belonged to john, since john has no shoes on after the crash, he just laying there in his socks.

[notsolost42]

im pretty sure the white tennis shoes belonged to john, since john has no shoes on after the crash, he just laying there in his socks.

I thought that question was finally answered and they belonged to Christian. Jack had just thrown old tennis shoes on his corpse before the flight because he didn't want to take the time to get him real shoes. That was answered in Jeremy Bentham episode I believe.

[Erratic Pendulum]

I thought that question was finally answered and they belonged to Christian. Jack had just thrown old tennis shoes on his corpse before the flight because he didn't want to take the time to get him real shoes. That was answered in Jeremy Bentham episode I believe.

yea i know, i guess the only reason john was shoeless after the crash was so we could see him wriggling his toes...

[Panda]

I thought that question was finally answered and they belonged to Christian. Jack had just thrown old tennis shoes on his corpse before the flight because he didn't want to take the time to get him real shoes. That was answered in Jeremy Bentham episode I believe.

But still I think it is strange.

My own father who is still alive, travels from time to time.
Now if one day they call me up to tell him that he is dead....and that I have to collect his body....I don't think that I would take any kind of clothes of my father to that place. As he always has shoes on his feet and in his luggage when he travels.

Why did Jack take tennis shoes? Did he think that his father had no clothes and shoes in his luggage?
And when did he put this shoes on his father's feet? They never showed that did they?
They only showed how he had to confirm that the body was his father's body.
We never saw anyone asking.....and did you bring some shoes for him....because he arrived in Australia without shoes and was always walking bare feet.

Or did Jack think before he went to collect the corpse of his father.
Well I don't like my father and this time I am going to take a final revenge. No matter how many pairs of shoes he has over there, and no matter what kind of shoe....I will take this tennis shoes with me and put them on his corpse just as revenge to show how much I dislike him...?????
That would mean that Jack was already in a certain mental situation not?

[Biscuit1111]

i forget do we actually see charlie come out of the water when the plane crashed.

if not couldnt charlie have crashed in the jungle with the cockpit and just wondered out the beach after hearing screams and stuff?


just a thought

[Dead but Here]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ILPnh4mOKo

Snych of the crash. Very cool.

I believe Charlie starts out far back from Jack in or near the tail (where he probably would have died) and then runs up to the front, slams the ceiling, almost gets killed by a service cart, and then scrambles back toward his seat before realizing he needs to sit NOW. And he ends up just on the right side of the break. Charlie then spends most of the rest of the eps he's in for three seasons missing horrible death by about three inches over and over again until he drowns himself because Des told him to.

[Dead but Here]

i forget do we actually see charlie come out of the water when the plane crashed.

if not couldnt charlie have crashed in the jungle with the cockpit and just wondered out the beach after hearing screams and stuff?


just a thought

I think the first time we see Charlie he's just sort of standing next to the engine that's still running. I love the parts with Charlie after the crash. Everyone else is flipping out and he's just sort of hanging out.. wandering around... taking in the sights.... I especially love when he almost gets killed by a flaming hunk of plane and he doesn't even flinch. He just turns around and looks at it like "Whoa" and then walks off.

*Note to self: If you're ever in a horrific plane crash, be stoned out of your mind.*

[t33h33]

I think there was more to it when Walt said "Is that Vincent" when we first hear the Smoke Monster in the trees knocking them down. I have a lab also and would never think that noise was coming from her. If I am not mistaking, the wrters already said that the smoke monster has taken on the form of the dog, amongst other things. Just as Ben "called" the smoke monster to do away with the mercenaries, perhaps Christian "called" upon the smoke monster in the form of Vincent to get Jack to begin his work.

sorry ive not read the posts after this so sorry if this has already been mentioned but we do see christian telling vincent to get jack (lost missing piecies) ?? Also im sure someone said vincent maybe jacob (maybe not in this thread) but it could be i mean the producers did say jacob was already in it just never had a speaking part.....

[losttime]

Just like Jack ends up neatly placed in the middle of the jungle with just a flesh wound needing a few sutures, the Island can place you where it wants you and might have placed Charlie on the beach with the rest of the people. Who knows.

[3d-aholic]

yea i know, i guess the only reason john was shoeless after the crash was so we could see him wriggling his toes...
No, that is not true.
John Locke is paralyzed before the flight. As a result of crashing on the island, John Locke regains his legs.

Its pretty common not to put shoes on people that can't walk.

[Dead but Here]

No, that is not true.
John Locke is paralyzed before the flight. As a result of crashing on the island, John Locke regains his legs.

Its pretty common not to put shoes on people that can't walk.

John had shoes. They were right there with him and he put them back on after wiggling his piggies. They weren't the kind that tie or anything, so I guess they fell off in the crash.

As far as people being placed (Jack) after the crash... I think most of them might have had something like that happen. Not a lot of people come out of a plane crash unharmed, but most of the survivors did. Lots of dead, a few badly injured... and 48 people with cuts and bruises if that. Looked like most of those didn't have a mark on them.

[3d-aholic]

John had shoes. They were right there with him and he put them back on after wiggling his piggies. They weren't the kind that tie or anything, so I guess they fell off in the crash.


Maybe, however, if those where his shoes, why did he put his foot up next to the shoe, to see if it would fit? And, then when it was the right size, he smiled? Nothing to smile about, if they are your shoes.

[Panda]

Maybe, however, if those where his shoes, why did he put his foot up next to the shoe, to see if it would fit? And, then when it was the right size, he smiled? Nothing to smile about, if they are your shoes.

Maybe the smile was more because he could feel his feet and legs again.
And like happy that he will walk on these shoes, feet and legs from now on.

[Bakers12]

Having watched the pilots again, I am convinced that Locke's backgommon reference was the key to the story. The "light" and "dark" pieces - Jacob and Smokey...the reference to ancient Mesopotamia and 5,000 years ago. For all we know, Jacob and Smokey could be playing a game of cosmic backgammon. In the game of backgammon, you can jump your opponant if he is not paired with another piece and he is forced to go back to the beginning which coincides with the recurring time loops. Also, in backgammon, either player may up the stakes and the other player must decide to "fold or play".

[losttime]

No, that is not true.
John Locke is paralyzed before the flight. As a result of crashing on the island, John Locke regains his legs.

Its pretty common not to put shoes on people that can't walk.

Really? Interesting. I work in the medical field and worked with many people who cant walk and they genereally do put shoes on especially if paralyzed to protect their feet from banging into things and becoming and sustaining a possibly significant injury since they cant move feet or feel it and move in response . granted the shoes are loosely on so as not to constrict blood flow but none the less are on to protect feet.

[3d-aholic]

Really? Interesting. I work in the medical field and worked with many people who cant walk and they genereally do put shoes on especially if paralyzed to protect their feet from banging into things and becoming and sustaining a possibly significant injury since they cant move feet or feel it and move in response . granted the shoes are loosely on so as not to constrict blood flow but none the less are on to protect feet.
Dude your a stalker...
Go bug someone else with your childishness please.

The point is the producers could and probably did take the shoes off as well to makes some kind of shoe connection in the episode beside just the wiggling of the toes. It is still a valid point.

Hopefully, it doesn't turn out to be evidence that Smokie was inhabiting Locke from Day 1 and Smoky has to have the shoes off the dead person to do that or something.

[Jelena]

Dude your a stalker...
Go bug someone else with your childishness please.

The point is the producers could and probably did take the shoes off as well to makes some kind of shoe connection in the episode beside just the wiggling of the toes. It is still a valid point.

Hopefully, it doesn't turn out to be evidence that Smokie was inhabiting Locke from Day 1 and Smoky has to have the shoes off the dead person to do that or something.


I regularly watch a TV show called "Air-crash investigation". What struck me the most is how many survivors said that their shoes were knocked off by the crash. This always surprised me, and I wondered many times why do their shoes fall off on impact. So, there's nothing strange about Locke's shoes flying off his feet during the crash. It's a fairly common instance, trust me.

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

Dude your a stalker...
Go bug someone else with your childishness please.

The point is the producers could and probably did take the shoes off as well to makes some kind of shoe connection in the episode beside just the wiggling of the toes. It is still a valid point.

Hopefully, it doesn't turn out to be evidence that Smokie was inhabiting Locke from Day 1 and Smoky has to have the shoes off the dead person to do that or something.

Mr. 3D, LostTime is neither a stalker nor childish. Having worked extensively in physical therapy and with spinal cord injuries, I know that what LostTime said is precisely correct. Your remark was very rude.

[burninglotus77]

Probably nothing, just seems weird....

When Kate and Jack are talking to pilot after finding him in the cockpit and the monster attacks the pilot, there seems to be an animal skin on the co-pilot's seat. You can see it a few times and the clearest is when the pilot puts the transceiver on the skin on the seat right before he gets pulled out of the cockpit.

Doesn't seem like a big deal, but why would there be an animal skin in the cockpit? Can't wait to hear your theories on this. :D

[losttime]

Dude your a stalker...
Go bug someone else with your childishness please.

The point is the producers could and probably did take the shoes off as well to makes some kind of shoe connection in the episode beside just the wiggling of the toes. It is still a valid point.

Hopefully, it doesn't turn out to be evidence that Smokie was inhabiting Locke from Day 1 and Smoky has to have the shoes off the dead person to do that or something.

Dude go watch all the episodes before you give us your philosophy on a show that you still dont know basic things on.
The fact that I explained why they are worn is your issue than get over it. not stalking you. You dont mean that much to me. Its a rationale why someone paralyzed would wear shoes. I think you are a baby because someone explains a reason for something that doesnt agree with your theory.

[losttime]

Mr. 3D, LostTime is neither a stalker nor childish. Having worked extensively in physical therapy and with spinal cord injuries, I know that what LostTime said is precisely correct. Your remark was very rude.

Thank you Lockeing. Someone is going to make a statement like "Its pretty common not to put shoes on people that can't walk." doesnt know what they are talking about. I am curious where he got this piece of trivia? And I worked as a paramedic. Not once can I recall a persons shoes flying off because they were in an accident. Maybe the ones I came across had very well fitted shoes. Not that I havent seen a person hit by a car and had a shoe knocked off but I arrived on scene of a person hit by a moving train and amazingly both his shoes were on. His arm barely was but by god those shoes were on his feet and attached to his body.

[losttime]

Dude your a stalker...
Go bug someone else with your childishness please.

The point is the producers could and probably did take the shoes off as well to makes some kind of shoe connection in the episode beside just the wiggling of the toes. It is still a valid point.

Hopefully, it doesn't turn out to be evidence that Smokie was inhabiting Locke from Day 1 and Smoky has to have the shoes off the dead person to do that or something.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3d-aholic
Those are philosophical questions.....whether we are born as sinners or whether this is something we learn or occurs over time as result of life. So called nature -vs- nurture argument in the realm of scientific behavoir questions.

You interpret Jacob as innate goodness because hes Lockeian.

I don't believe they will come down on "either" side in the end. They are going to say we are a little bit of both/all. Some sin we learn...some we just seem to be born with a little bad person inside.

I do believe they are trying to give us a narrative that much of the sin we accumulate that is not original is related to daddy issues. Either our own daddy or someone else's daddy. And, really I don't like that. I think males already get too much of the blame for "Everything" in our society already.

Some of those daddy issue ultimately stem from woman.... I would lilke to see them get a little more into that. Some men are doing bad things out of love for woman or want/desire over woman....: When are they going to get into that for goodness sakes?

Nice points. Also if you look at society, it is no surprise. They wil lshow a man molesting a kid and he is dsgusting and gross and he should be hung by, well you know. But than 5 min later a female teacher is busted for sex with a student under age and its oh a shame for the boy and tha twas not nice of her but the public views it differently. I am not sayin thatif a male does something like that its not all those things I mentioned but why not when its the female. It doesnt seem to get the same negative publicity. For example the teacher that was considerd hot had sex with the student and she was like a celebrity. news all over her. A guy get s busted for moelsting a girl same ages in comparison and they say "locke him up throw away the keys let the same thign happen to him in prison"
If we think about it. Ms Hawking was Faraday's biggest issue. Serious mom issues. We cant even blame Widmore because he didnt even know he was his father. And I wouldnt put it past Hawking as the reason why the father's identity was kept secret was because of her. She was never supportive of anything her son did and said it wasnt his destiny. If something was his destiny, it stands to reason that whatever he did, he would still end up doing whatever his destiny was.

I gues when I agree with you I am not a stalker huh?

[yokogleeton]

Thank you Lockeing. Someone is going to make a statement like "Its pretty common not to put shoes on people that can't walk." doesnt know what they are talking about. I am curious where he got this piece of trivia? And I worked as a paramedic. Not once can I recall a persons shoes flying off because they were in an accident. Maybe the ones I came across had very well fitted shoes. Not that I havent seen a person hit by a car and had a shoe knocked off but I arrived on scene of a person hit by a moving train and amazingly both his shoes were on. His arm barely was but by god those shoes were on his feet and attached to his body.

not to impart too many of my life's personal details to the group, but i can tell you that I once was thrown from a moving vehicle on the highway in a very disastrous crash. randomly enough i woke up similar to Locke...flat on my back with no shoes...i never saw those shoes again actually....so yes, it is more than feasible that a fall from such a height would knock someone "right out of their shoes."

...knocking socks off....well thats a different beast altogether...lol.

[Jelena]

Thank you Lockeing. Someone is going to make a statement like "Its pretty common not to put shoes on people that can't walk." doesnt know what they are talking about. I am curious where he got this piece of trivia? And I worked as a paramedic. Not once can I recall a persons shoes flying off because they were in an accident. Maybe the ones I came across had very well fitted shoes. Not that I havent seen a person hit by a car and had a shoe knocked off but I arrived on scene of a person hit by a moving train and amazingly both his shoes were on. His arm barely was but by god those shoes were on his feet and attached to his body.

But losttime, did you read my comment - about shoes flying off plane crash victims, who survive? And now yokogleeton has provided a very solid proof that this indeed does happen even in car crashes.

And that is such a morbid comment about that person who was hit by a train, and I am even more morbid for laughing while reading it. :D

[losttime]

But losttime, did you read my comment - about shoes flying off plane crash victims, who survive? And now yokogleeton has provided a very solid proof that this indeed does happen even in car crashes.

And that is such a morbid comment about that person who was hit by a train, and I am even more morbid for laughing while reading it. :D

I was responding in part to the comment about people who are paralyzed usually dont wear shoes. I explained why that isnt true. And yes, I did acknowledge that in accidents shoes can fly off but having the experience of being a paramedic I recall taking shoes off a lot of victims of car ejections, rollovers falling out of a 3 story window. So I dont think that in this particular situation, it was anything more than making the scene more intersting showing him wiggling his shoes. I think when they show him in the wheel chair being led by Boone in that vision his shoes were off because thats how he when he was in the "sweat hut", whatevre its called? We would have to go back and see when he is going past Rose at the airport and see if he is wearing shoes there. But I know from real life experience working with paralyzed people or wheelchair people that leave their home or even in their home will generally put something on their feet for protection from injury.

But yes, unfortunately that is a true account of the person hit by the train and not only that he was thrown a good distance from the point of impact per train conductor. So basically Iwas just defending my point but not really disagreeing with you.
I just dont understand why if I diagree and back it up I get hazed for it but they can disagree and its ok? Oh well. I am just figuring out who I can have conversations with on here thats all. Its all good.

[losttime]

not to impart too many of my life's personal details to the group, but i can tell you that I once was thrown from a moving vehicle on the highway in a very disastrous crash. randomly enough i woke up similar to Locke...flat on my back with no shoes...i never saw those shoes again actually....so yes, it is more than feasible that a fall from such a height would knock someone "right out of their shoes."

...knocking socks off....well thats a different beast altogether...lol.

I never said it "never happens" Ijust saiod its not everytime or its a given tha tit would happen. Thats all

[yokogleeton]

I never said it "never happens" Ijust saiod its not everytime or its a given tha tit would happen. Thats all

look man, i enjoy your input, so i'm not trying to be argumentative (even though i think this will sound argumentative) but i was only responding to this:

"Not once can I recall a persons shoes flying off because they were in an accident. Maybe the ones I came across had very well fitted shoes."

But hey, again no worries. i'm guessing if there was something we missed that was so major from the first epi (other than the supposed baton...jurys still out there right?) it wont become apparent until we're almost thorugh with this next coming season.....it wont be something as simple as shoes on locke, although i'm guessing we'll be identifying the actual body of christian shephard by a single white tennis shoe.....this is all just a hunch.

[Jelena]

I was responding in part to the comment about people who are paralyzed usually dont wear shoes. I explained why that isnt true. And yes, I did acknowledge that in accidents shoes can fly off but having the experience of being a paramedic I recall taking shoes off a lot of victims of car ejections, rollovers falling out of a 3 story window. So I dont think that in this particular situation, it was anything more than making the scene more intersting showing him wiggling his shoes. I think when they show him in the wheel chair being led by Boone in that vision his shoes were off because thats how he when he was in the "sweat hut", whatevre its called? We would have to go back and see when he is going past Rose at the airport and see if he is wearing shoes there. But I know from real life experience working with paralyzed people or wheelchair people that leave their home or even in their home will generally put something on their feet for protection from injury.

But yes, unfortunately that is a true account of the person hit by the train and not only that he was thrown a good distance from the point of impact per train conductor. So basically Iwas just defending my point but not really disagreeing with you.
I just dont understand why if I diagree and back it up I get hazed for it but they can disagree and its ok? Oh well. I am just figuring out who I can have conversations with on here thats all. Its all good.

What are you on about, who can disagree and you can't? When people disagree it's always fruitful - new conclusions are reached.
Why do you feel like every time I disagree with you, you're being attacked? Or are you joking again? If you are, then please put a smiley, that changes the whole meaning of a sentence, ok? :p

[losttime]

What are you on about, who can disagree and you can't? When people disagree it's always fruitful - new conclusions are reached.
Why do you feel like every time I disagree with you, you're being attacked? Or are you joking again? If you are, then please put a smiley, that changes the whole meaning of a sentence, ok? :p

Oh Jelena sorry Its all good. Smiley faces around. I really wasnt thinking you were attacking. Sorry smiley faces for all.

[losttime]

look man, i enjoy your input, so i'm not trying to be argumentative (even though i think this will sound argumentative) but i was only responding to this:

"Not once can I recall a persons shoes flying off because they were in an accident. Maybe the ones I came across had very well fitted shoes."

But hey, again no worries. i'm guessing if there was something we missed that was so major from the first epi (other than the supposed baton...jurys still out there right?) it wont become apparent until we're almost thorugh with this next coming season.....it wont be something as simple as shoes on locke, although i'm guessing we'll be identifying the actual body of christian shephard by a single white tennis shoe.....this is all just a hunch.

I kinda was exaggerating about the "shoes Flying off" As I said, I didnt say it never happened but felt like some were generalizing that if you are in an accident, expect your shoes to be off your feet. its all good. I should be a little clearer in wha t iwas trying to say.
And no didnt think you are being argumentative at all. That is a good point. Sounded like I was generealizing my self. My bad

[yokogleeton]

I kinda was exaggerating about the "shoes Flying off" As I said, I didnt say it never happened but felt like some were generalizing that if you are in an accident, expect your shoes to be off your feet. its all good. I should be a little clearer in wha t iwas trying to say.
And no didnt think you are being argumentative at all. That is a good point. Sounded like I was generealizing my self. My bad

no sweat, we all need a little self realization from time to time...keeps us in check....but hey smile, hugs, good vibes all around.

now I'M ready for kumbaya and trust falls....

[losttime]

no sweat, we all need a little self realization from time to time...keeps us in check....but hey smile, hugs, good vibes all around.

now I'M ready for kumbaya and trust falls....

Now leave me the hell alone. HAHAHAHAHA JK

[Jelena]

Oh Jelena sorry Its all good. Smiley faces around. I really wasnt thinking you were attacking. Sorry smiley faces for all.

Now that's better. :D

[Raoh]

Hey gang,

Was going back thru the series again, and was paying extra attention to the first two episodes that were known as "Pilot 1, and Pilot 2"; AKA the first two hours that aired. I was trying to figure out what the big thing we missed, or hadn't been discussed yet at the time of the seasons DVD release as mentioned in one of the commentary's or special features in said box set.

Well, I think I may have caught it. If you have as well, and haven't mentioned it.. great! If not, have a read of the following and let me know if you think this was the big thing. :)

The second half of the Pilot (Pilot 2), was a Charlie centric episode. In the flashback of Charlie on board good old Flight 815, he is seated somewhat in the rear to middle section of the plane. He is approached by one of the flight attendants (As Charlie seems to have a bit of a twitch, or minor freak out going on, as we all know was a mix of withdrawal and nervousness ). She walks away to the rear of the plane and begins conversing with other attendants and pointing in Charlies direction. Charlie sees this and decides he's gonna get on up out of his seat and bolt.

As it was in Pilot 1, we see Charlie moving towards the front of the plane, passing by Jack and Rose who are seated pretty much in the mid-section of the plane. Charlie continues toward the front of the plane, and enters the bathrooms directly outside, and behind the cockpit of the plane.

OK, this is what I caught, and wanted to bring forward as either something hidden that we were supposed to catch... or.. another continuity error....

- Charlie, whilst in the washroom, takes a hoot off his stash of Heroin. Toss's the stash in the toilet out of fear of getting caught with it on him, while the attendants are banging on the door asking him to come out. The plane takes a huge drop in altitude causing charlie to literally becomes airborne, smashing into the ceiling and falling to the floor.
- The very next scene, is charlie opening the door from the bathroom and crawling on all four to the very first row of seats in the plane, where he gets into a seat and buckles up. Well know what happened next.

- The planes tail section broke off first, seen falling away from the fuselage landing in the water on one side of the island. The front of the plane breaks off next, and one could assume fell to ground in the before or after the fuselage, landing deep in the jungle (not that it makes a difference which fell or hit first), and the fuselage crashed mostly, if not all, on the beach on the other side of the island.

- I know I am going over things most of us already know to death, but the key thing was Charlie, being in the front of the plane. Buckled into a seat directly behind the bathroom, by the cockpit. We see the bathroom he was in again when he, Kate and jack find the nose section and climb up to cockpit to retrieve the Radio. Charlie goes into the same stall and retrieves his un-flushed stash and on several shots, we see their are still many many rows of seats that were in the front section of the plane that separated. Thus, placing Charlie in the front of the plane, or nose-section, that broke off and fell in the Jungle.

Does this make any sense to anybody? Or am I just reading way to deep into another minor production flaw?

Sorry for my ramblings, but I hope you find this interesting.

- Fuel

ever noticed cindy from the tail section was with the black guy knocking on the bathroom door where charlie was in? how did she end up in the tail section so fast?

[burninglotus77]

Probably nothing, just seems weird....

When Kate and Jack are talking to pilot after finding him in the cockpit and the monster attacks the pilot, there seems to be an animal skin on the co-pilot's seat. You can see it a few times and the clearest is when the pilot puts the transceiver on the skin on the seat right before he gets pulled out of the cockpit.

Doesn't seem like a big deal, but why would there be an animal skin in the cockpit? Can't wait to hear your theories on this. :D


Lol, guess no one else thinks this is weird. Although since I have written this a while back, I also never realized that it seems strange that Smokey would kill the pilot 'for no reason.' Smokey has killed other people but we have been directly or indirectly shown why they were killed, but we no nothing of the pilot other than he can't fly too well. Ah well, guess I'll know by then end of next summer.

[evilcow]

In the origional story line for the pilot When Jack, Kate and charlie go to the cockpit Jack gets caught by the smoke monster and killed. It is his body that Kate and charlie find in the tree, not the pilot. Then back on the beach there is supposed to be an important dialog between Kate and Charlie where she asks him why he wanted to go find the cockpit. That is the part of the show where Kate starts to develop into the main heroine of the show. She was supposed to be a business woman who's husband was lost in the tail section. The powers at ABC didn't like the idea of making Jack our hero just to have him killed off halfway through the pilot. So, they re-wrote the script, but had a very very short time to do so. I think the topics broached in this thread are all due to the change in script. Charlie going to the cockpit for his heroine and Kate's terrified reaction when Jack is missing were very important for the development of those characters, so the writers had to fudge things a little to make them work. It wouldn't make sense for charlie to go back to the cockpit if he had time to wrap up his heroin and put it back in his pocket and they couldn't have him flush it. Rewriting the scene the way they did creates a small inaccuracy in regards to the placement of charlies after the crash, but it allowed them maintain the story line without too much rewritting. The same goes with Jack, avoiding the monster by jumping in the bushes is a lot less rewriting than creating an entire scene to explain how he got away

This is why I think the ending of the show has something to do with Jack dying.

[Harpie]

Well since evertything in this forum is now considered a duplicate of everything else I have to post this here where probably nobody will see it. And if youre new to the forum and LOST, sorry for ruining it. : /

Now that we know more of the story, could it be possible that the thing we missed in the pilot was that someone was claimed since day one? I think the writers said in the first minute so the thought would immediately go to Jack since he was the first one we saw. But something tells me its Locke. Perhaps this is why MIB is stuck as Locke? We know hes smokey, but what if that is kind of a form of claiming? Maybe if youre killed in the form you take youre stuck that way? I dunno. I'm off on two thoughts at once lol. So thoughts?

[MrEchoLives]

I am glad I was glancing at this cause there are a couple things that I always thought was curious from the pilot epi(now that we know a little more)..

JACK- I always thought it was curious that when he,kate and charlie went to the nose of the plane and ran into the smoke monster and had to run for their lives, you see kate run, and you see charlie soon after, but jack is left way behind and pops out of nowhere very suspiciously later on. hmmm
Kate- i thought it was very interesting when Kate tells charlie how familiar he looks. And i dont think it was because he was in "driveshaft"

But,what about ROSE?? Within the first couple minutes of the pilot episode,Rose is dead.. Boone tries to revive her, but he isnt doing it right. Jack comes over and supposedly brings her back.

[Harpie]

Oh thats right! Maybe its Rose. Maybe thats why she knows her cancer is gone. But if thats the case, why care so much about Bernard? Hmmmm...

[MrEchoLives]

Oh thats right! Maybe its Rose. Maybe thats why she knows her cancer is gone. But if thats the case, why care so much about Bernard? Hmmmm...

Maybe she needs bernard on her side. Maybe its all a big ,elaborate plan drawn out by smokie(or whomever is the claiming party) for 3 years now... Wouldnt be the first time for a 3 year plan

[LissaMarie]

For those interested, check the Official LOST Podcast for April 16, 2007. Damon and Carlton both address this issue.

Here's an excerpt:



Carlton Cuse: Here's another thing you can clear up, Damon.

Damon Lindelof: Yeah.

Carlton Cuse: This is from Faciana... a...

Damon Lindelof: Don't even bother.

Carlton Cuse: Yeah, I won't.

Damon Lindelof: Heh.

Carlton Cuse: "I recently posted a topic in the pilot in the plot forum regarding something I'd read stating that either Damon or Carlton had said that there was a vital clue in the pilot episode. It turns out this topic has come up several times, but no one could ever cite the source. So now I'm asking definitively, did we all miss something groundbreaking in the pilot? If not, have we at one time missed something that has since been discovered? It would be awesome if you guys could clear this up."

Damon Lindelof: A plot- a mystery in the pilot?

Carlton Cuse: Yeah, something... I think this is actually- this must be a false rumor. I don't- I honestly can't think that there's anything in the pilot that we haven't addressed that isn't obvious to viewers of the show. There is no sort of embedded secret coded undiscovered clue in the pilot that--

Damon Lindelof: Yeah.

Carlton Cuse: --has not yet been unearthed.

[Cee]

Interesting points here, I saw ep 1 recently and with this in mind saw that there were cut scenes from Charlie moving from the toilet to the place where he got a near miss with the trolley, followed by another brief cut to where he sits himself, I think that could be properly placed where he fits in to the story despite the air dispencers falling.

As for the shoe theory, and whats been missed here is why the dead body of Locke had to have shoes placed on his feet before it was returned to the island. Given also, the idea that he measured up some shoes on the beach, could it be possible (and i'm going out on a limb here ) that they could have belonged to Christian??

Never thought of Jack being left alone with Smokie even while watching it but it seems thats a scene that could be revisited also.

As i'm gathering my thoughts towards the end of the show now I am wondering if Smokie is the good guy after all of this, something that probably won't be understood right to the last "thud"!