Hawking's Chronlogy protection conjecture

[Foro777]

A lot of people seem to make the mistake of associating Hawking's Chronlogy protection conjecture found on Faraday's board with Mrs. Hawkings. It is actually a concept developed by Stephen Hawking the physicist. While I'm not big on science and therefore find it hard to understand it's precise definition, Hawking is not a believer in time travel, using the argument that we'd be seeing people from the future NOW. The Hawking's Chronlogy protection conjecture has something to do with time paradox. Since Faraday is trying to break Hawking's "law" (as shown in "the COnstant" on his blackboard". Maybe he is trying to change the future....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_protection_conjecture

[XmasDVD]

It would make sense that he would want to change the future if he told himself about the events to come or if Sayid had a chat with him, more than we saw, when he went back to visit him.

[notsolost42]

Actually, the theorum on Faraday's board, the one at Oxford that is, is the Kerr Metric. Faraday himself said that you cannot change the future in The Constant so I highly doubt that is his motive.

[XmasDVD]

What if the Faraday we see in the lab is actually the Faraday from 'a' future - coming back trying to change the past? You can change the past to affect the future.

[notsolost42]

What if the Faraday we see in the lab is actually the Faraday from 'a' future - coming back trying to change the past? You can change the past to affect the future.

I don't think so. If you change the past to change the future then you can create a paradox. TPTB said they were making it a point to be careful of that. What if your consciousness travels to a different dimension...like a parallel universe? Then you can change it...I guess...????

[Foro777]

Actually, the theorum on Faraday's board, the one at Oxford that is, is the Kerr Metric. Faraday himself said that you cannot change the future in The Constant so I highly doubt that is his motive.

That is partially correct, what the board says exactly is:
"Kerr might work! Can it evade Hawking's chronology protection conjecture?"

SO why is Faraday trying to evade the chronology protection conjecture?

[notsolost42]

That is partially correct, what the board says exactly is:
"Kerr might work! Can it evade Hawking's chronology protection conjecture?"

SO why is Faraday trying to evade the chronology protection conjecture?

Because Hawking's Chronology Protection Conjecture says you cannot time travel and that is exactly what Daniel is successfully experimenting with! The Kerr Metric and Closed Timelike Curves say you can. Daniel is not trying to break Hawking's law, he's trying to disprove it.

Read from Wiki:

The chronology protection conjecture is a conjecture by the physicist Professor Stephen Hawking that the laws of physics are such as to prevent time travel on all but sub-microscopic scales. Mathematically, the permissibility of time travel is represented by the existence of closed timelike curves.

In a 1992 paper, Hawking uses the metaphorical device of a "Chronology Protection Agency" as a personification of the aspects of physics which make time travel impossible at macroscopic scales, thus apparently preventing time paradoxes. He says:

It seems that there is a Chronology Protection Agency which prevents the appearance of closed timelike curves and so makes the universe safe for historians.
The idea of the Chronology Protection Agency appears to be drawn playfully from the Time Patrol or Time Police concept present in such works of science fiction as Isaac Asimov's novel The End of Eternity.

By the way, for all of you who might remember my theories about the games and the PSPACE time....well, Hawking's theory here leads right to it!!! You follow this theory to Time Loop Logic and Novikov and there you go...Physicist David Deutsch showed in 1991 that this model of computation could not only solve NP problems in a reasonable time, but also the larger class of PSPACE problems.

I'm telling you, that's what all the games have been about!

[Foro777]

Thanks for the clear up notso, as I said, I'm not big on the sciences and that article made my brain hurt :)

[notsolost42]

Thanks for the clear up notso, as I said, I'm not big on the sciences and that article made my brain hurt :)

Anytime Foro, anytime.

[persistentlylost]

What if the Faraday we see in the lab is actually the Faraday from 'a' future - coming back trying to change the past? You can change the past to affect the future.

Faraday is definitely time traveling to attempt to change to past. He knows the entire protocol, which Charlotte seems clueless about. He knows about the time traveling characteristics on the island and that it occurs at The Orchid. Do you think Daniel and Charlotte dismantled the poison gas at The Tempest to prevent Ben from gassing the freighties...or did they do it tp prevent Ben from gassing the DI? My guess is the DI. The Faraday on the island may be from the future, but I doubt the Faraday in the lab is a Faraday from the future.

Has anyone seen the clip of Pierre Chang?

[notsolost42]

Faraday is definitely time traveling to attempt to change to past. He knows the entire protocol, which Charlotte seems clueless about. He knows about the time traveling characteristics on the island and that it occurs at The Orchid. Do you think Daniel and Charlotte dismantled the poison gas at The Tempest to prevent Ben from gassing the freighties...or did they do it tp prevent Ben from gassing the DI? My guess is the DI. The Faraday on the island may be from the future, but I doubt the Faraday in the lab is a Faraday from the future.

Has anyone seen the clip of Pierre Chang?

Faraday and Charlotte disabled the poison gas at The Tempest to prevent the freigher folks, Keamy and the gang, from killing everyone on the island. Widmore wanted everyone killed after they took Ben prisoner. They, the "science team" had a different agenda and did not want to see anyone killed because they probably figured they would be included in the group of those killed.
Daniel is not trying to change the past to change the future. It has been firmly established by TPTB on a few episodes already that you cannot do that. Go back and check.
If you are talking about the video of Dr. Cheng from the past directed to the future, yes, it's been around for a while. Did you notice that was Daniel's voice at the end. He was operating the video camera.

[NoData]

Daniel is not trying to change the past to change the future. It has been firmly established by TPTB on a few episodes already that you cannot do that.
Yes TPTB have made it an explicit point that the past cannot be changed. Yet it would not surprise me a bit if they find a way to wriggle out of that one. They have left the door cracked open a bit with Desmond.

Daniel firmly believes that the past cannot be changed, but he is the first one that we see consciously try to do so when he tells Desmond to find his mother. Then Desmond wakes up years later with a brand new memory he did not have before...

If destiny cannot be changed, free will means very little. I find it hard to believe that they would end the series on that note.

[notsolost42]

Yes TPTB have made it an explicit point that the past cannot be changed. Yet it would not surprise me a bit if they find a way to wriggle out of that one. They have left the door cracked open a bit with Desmond.

Daniel firmly believes that the past cannot be changed, but he is the first one that we see consciously try to do so when he tells Desmond to find his mother. Then Desmond wakes up years later with a brand new memory he did not have before...

If destiny cannot be changed, free will means very little. I find it hard to believe that they would end the series on that note.

But Daniel hasn't changed anything. That's the point. He has always said what happens, happened.

[NoData]

But Daniel hasn't changed anything. That's the point. He has always said what happens, happened.
By changing that detail in Desmond's past, Daniel has changed the future but not in the way he thought. Mrs. Hawking did not need Desmond to visit her. She was already acting on her own. It will turn out that it was Desmond who needed to visit Mrs. Hawking.

But my point is that even Daniel, who is completely sold on the idea of Fate being unchangeable, is driven to attempt to change it. It is human nature to attempt to control our own destiny.

When Sawyer & Co. were confronted with the choice of whether to help Amy or not, Daniel said it didn't matter, and that whatever happened happened. But it is hard to see how Amy could have given birth to Horace's son if it were not for our losties. So Daniel was wrong - that interaction definitely did matter. And if the baby turns out to be Ethan like some ppl think there is a whole chain of events that is impacted there.

TPTB are being a bit heavy-handed in their assertion that destiny trumps choice. They are trying really hard to drive the point home. I believe they are setting us up for a twist at the end of the series. They have planted the seed with Desmond being the one the rules don't apply to. I don't think they did that just to have Charlie die. Mrs. Hawking has told us that the island is not done with Desmond.

[notsolost42]

By changing that detail in Desmond's past, Daniel has changed the future but not in the way he thought. Mrs. Hawking did not need Desmond to visit her. She was already acting on her own. It will turn out that it was Desmond who needed to visit Mrs. Hawking.

But my point is that even Daniel, who is completely sold on the idea of Fate being unchangeable, is driven to attempt to change it. It is human nature to attempt to control our own destiny.

When Sawyer & Co. were confronted with the choice of whether to help Amy or not, Daniel said it didn't matter, and that whatever happened happened. But it is hard to see how Amy could have given birth to Horace's son if it were not for our losties. So Daniel was wrong - that interaction definitely did matter. And if the baby turns out to be Ethan like some ppl think there is a whole chain of events that is impacted there.

TPTB are being a bit heavy-handed in their assertion that destiny trumps choice. They are trying really hard to drive the point home. I believe they are setting us up for a twist at the end of the series. They have planted the seed with Desmond being the one the rules don't apply to. I don't think they did that just to have Charlie die. Mrs. Hawking has told us that the island is not done with Desmond.

The fate vs. destiny, science vs. faith, black vs. white, etc. all of those themes have something in common. They are "polar" opposites of each other. They all fit with what the island ultimately is and what's going on now. Those things that some or many people thought were just gaffs, like the one with Kate waking up upon returning to the island, or even I believe, the one with Locke visiting Walt and seeing all the same people over and over again. It will all be explained in the end. It all fits very nicely.