The Purge

[persistentlylost]

If Charlotte and Daniel dismantled the poison gas and the island is going to travel back in time...does that mean there will be no purge?

[realrasslinfan]

Now there is a thought.

How did they know about that to start with?

Any clues?

[notsolost42]

No dear. If they dismantled the poison gas in 2004 and travel back in time to say, 1990 or whatever, that would be before the poison gas was dismantled. Get it?

[5starboss]

No dear. If they dismantled the poison gas in 2004 and travel back in time to say, 1990 or whatever, that would be before the poison gas was dismantled. Get it?

but the Island doesn't "rewind" to the past and in the process undo events. If it jumps to the past, say 1990, then it jumps as is, right? so the event that happened changes the past and sequentially changes the future to a new course.



IDK, they could have had stored cannisters/grenades of the GAS for years.

[notsolost42]

but the Island doesn't "rewind" to the past and in the process undo events. If it jumps to the past, say 1990, then it jumps as is, right? so the event that happened changes the past and sequentially changes the future to a new course.



IDK, they could have had stored cannisters/grenades of the GAS for years.

No, it goes to that time in space. It does not take its future with it. Besides, we all seem to keep forgetting that the only thing that is traveling in spacetime is ones consciousness. The physical being is left lifeless and comatose in the place it has left. This reminds me of something. Has anyone figured out who was in the hospital bed next to Michael after he attempted suicide when he returned? The person looked so familiar but I cannot place him. He also fits the bill perfectly for one who is traveling in spacetime with his consciousness. He is comatose and even the nurse said she knew he wasn't the one making the noise in the room. Is he really a time travelor??????

[Missie]

No, it goes to that time in space. It does not take its future with it. Besides, we all seem to keep forgetting that the only thing that is traveling in spacetime is ones consciousness. The physical being is left lifeless and comatose in the place it has left. This reminds me of something. Has anyone figured out who was in the hospital bed next to Michael after he attempted suicide when he returned? The person looked so familiar but I cannot place him. He also fits the bill perfectly for one who is traveling in spacetime with his consciousness. He is comatose and even the nurse said she knew he wasn't the one making the noise in the room. Is he really a time travelor??????

I think it was Hanso!
But I dont think we ever really agreed to anyone.

Also... we dont really know the rules of time travel yet as far as this show goes... so i guess it could be possible that an action in the future can erase the past. But I doubt it.

[notsolost42]

I think it was Hanso!
But I dont think we ever really agreed to anyone.

Also... we dont really know the rules of time travel yet as far as this show goes... so i guess it could be possible that an action in the future can erase the past. But I doubt it.

That's it! It was Alvar Hanso!!! YES!!! YES!!!! YES!!!! Exactly!!! Most definitely. No doubt! Yahoooo!!!! So, it appears Alvar is time traveling then. That would make sense! Okay, now I have some thinking to do! Great call!!!! Great, great call Missie!!! Thank you! It has been bugging me for a long time!!!!!
As for the rules of time travel. They have been established ever since Mrs. Hawking showed Des. TPTB have already said, a long time ago at that, that time travel rules were in that episode. You cannot change the future or your destiny. You only have the choice of how you get there. The outcome will not be different.

[coffefrap]

but the Island doesn't "rewind" to the past and in the process undo events. If it jumps to the past, say 1990, then it jumps as is, right? so the event that happened changes the past and sequentially changes the future to a new course.



IDK, they could have had stored cannisters/grenades of the GAS for years.

OK -- I am thinking that the island jumps to the whenever in time and place as it is....I posted this thought last season...! The Black Rock is just in the middle of the island right, OK....so when we saw the island disappear at the end of last season that made me think that the island has moved in the past and when it re-appeared at whatever time in history it reappered it popped up in the ocean right where the Black Rock was located in the ocean....hence then the Black Rock is now in the middle of the island..... I think the island jumps as is.....thoughts on this

[notsolost42]

OK -- I am thinking that the island jumps to the whenever in time and place as it is....I posted this thought last season...! The Black Rock is just in the middle of the island right, OK....so when we saw the island disappear at the end of last season that made me think that the island has moved in the past and when it re-appeared at whatever time in history it reappered it popped up in the ocean right where the Black Rock was located in the ocean....hence then the Black Rock is now in the middle of the island..... I think the island jumps as is.....thoughts on this

I think perhaps moving the island and time travel may be two different things!

[coffefrap]

I think perhaps moving the island and time travel may be two different things!

But what about the Black Rock being in the middle of the island??? So confused........

[Unbridled Pageantry]

Today 06:23 PM
notsolost42 Quote:

No, it goes to that time in space. It does not take its future with it. Besides, we all seem to keep forgetting that the only thing that is traveling in spacetime is ones consciousness. The physical being is left lifeless and comatose in the place it has left.

If this is true, then what was the point of building the runway? I thought the main belief around here was that the runway was built for the Ajira plane and the 06. So if the island goes back and the runway turns back into a rock field, then what was the point?

[krakup]

If this is true, then what was the point of building the runway? I thought the main belief around here was that the runway was built for the Ajira plane and the 06. So if the island goes back and the runway turns back into a rock field, then what was the point?

that bloody runway has cost me hours of sleep

[boutte]

No, it goes to that time in space. It does not take its future with it. Besides, we all seem to keep forgetting that the only thing that is traveling in spacetime is ones consciousness. The physical being is left lifeless and comatose in the place it has left. This reminds me of something. Has anyone figured out who was in the hospital bed next to Michael after he attempted suicide when he returned? The person looked so familiar but I cannot place him. He also fits the bill perfectly for one who is traveling in spacetime with his consciousness. He is comatose and even the nurse said she knew he wasn't the one making the noise in the room. Is he really a time travelor??????

You guys are going to hurt yourselves.

[Dzbabykel]

Yeah very interesting thought....but we don't know for sure if they even traveled back in time, do we?

[Unbridled Pageantry]

Today 01:13 AM
Dzbabykel Yeah very interesting thought....but we don't know for sure if they even traveled back in time, do we?

You never know for sure, but from some of the previews and pictures from set it seems like they've gone back to the Dharma days.

[5starboss]

... This reminds me of something. Has anyone figured out who was in the hospital bed next to Michael after he attempted suicide when he returned? The person looked so familiar but I cannot place him. He also fits the bill perfectly for one who is traveling in spacetime with his consciousness. He is comatose and even the nurse said she knew he wasn't the one making the noise in the room. Is he really a time travelor??????


Wouldn't a rich fat cat like Hanso afford better quality care than an inner city municipal hospital though? I would imagine him having healthcare attendants at his side in his own home or something.

[meiyoki]

we know that faraday traveled back in time to see the man with many names that is on all the darma tapes about the different stations!

[persistentlylost]

If this is true, then what was the point of building the runway? I thought the main belief around here was that the runway was built for the Ajira plane and the 06. So if the island goes back and the runway turns back into a rock field, then what was the point?

How would Ben know about the Ajira plane...and that the 06 were going to leave and need to come back? Frankly, we don't even know it was a runway. Juliet said that to Sawyer when they were walking back to the beach to save Jin, Sayid and Bernard. Her next statement was that it was "for the aliens."

Regardless, the runway won't go away because the island does not rewind. On the same note, the dead DI won't come back either...no matter what time they travel too. The only way the DI "comes back" is if the DI members were actually the losties.

[notsolost42]

Wouldn't a rich fat cat like Hanso afford better quality care than an inner city municipal hospital though? I would imagine him having healthcare attendants at his side in his own home or something.

Well you'd think so but I can stretch it so it is plausible. If you played the online game in the first and second season you found that Hanso had been kidnapped. I speculated that it was by Thomas Mittelwerk, one of his top executives. I felt that he was a double agent working for Charles Widmore also. I think that Mittelwerk was the one who procured the 324 bodies for the fake crash. If you've ever seen the Sri Lanka video, just think about it. If you never have seen it, then go to Lostpedia and check it out. Very interesting stuff. And actually, I do believe the name Mittelwerk is German. That really does fit into the show at this point with Sayid and the Economist. Now, TPTB have said that the games aren't necessarily cannon to the show but it could work. They say a lot of things that are either misleading or just plain not true. I think that there are things from the games that do fill in the gaps that they will never be able to explain due to time. So, back to Alvar. After he escaped he may have gone into hiding of sorts, you know, gone underground, so he would not be captured again. If he did, then that would explain him in a community hospital setting. Don't forget the hospital is in New York. Not some small little town. Or, perhaps he had no ID on him. I do believe that the man next to Michael is Alvar Hanso. If you go to the HansoFoundation website there is a letter posted by him after he escaped. His picture is there also. Check it out. Print it and then watch Meet Kevin Johnson and look at it. I think it is him. Very much. I also think he may be time traveling while he is lying there. He is comatose and unresponsive, which is exactly what happens to you when your consciousness goes somewhere else. Think Minkowski. Dead to the present world but on a ferris wheel somewhere else.
It is possible.....anything is on this darn show.

[notsolost42]

we know that faraday traveled back in time to see the man with many names that is on all the darma tapes about the different stations!

We are actually ASSUMING it is Daniel. It is not fact yet.

[notsolost42]

How would Ben know about the Ajira plane...and that the 06 were going to leave and need to come back? Frankly, we don't even know it was a runway. Juliet said that to Sawyer when they were walking back to the beach to save Jin, Sayid and Bernard. Her next statement was that it was "for the aliens."

Regardless, the runway won't go away because the island does not rewind. On the same note, the dead DI won't come back either...no matter what time they travel too. The only way the DI "comes back" is if the DI members were actually the losties.

First off, maybe it really is for the aliens...you never know.
Secondly, what do you mean the DI will never come back? If the Losties did travel back to the DI era with the island then who do you think would be on it? I am confused by what you are thinking. When you say the island doesn't rewind what do you mean? I guess you don't buy Willem Jacob van Stockum's Closed Timelike Curve or as people refer to it in short, Time Loop? What do you think is going on then? I would love to hear some other point of view that makes sense.

[5starboss]

Well you'd think so but I can stretch it so it is plausible. If you played the online game in the first and second season you found that Hanso had been kidnapped. I speculated that it was by Thomas Mittelwerk, one of his top executives. I felt that he was a double agent working for Charles Widmore also. I think that Mittelwerk was the one who procured the 324 bodies for the fake crash. If you've ever seen the Sri Lanka video, just think about it. If you never have seen it, then go to Lostpedia and check it out. Very interesting stuff. And actually, I do believe the name Mittelwerk is German. That really does fit into the show at this point with Sayid and the Economist. Now, TPTB have said that the games aren't necessarily cannon to the show but it could work. They say a lot of things that are either misleading or just plain not true. I think that there are things from the games that do fill in the gaps that they will never be able to explain due to time. So, back to Alvar. After he escaped he may have gone into hiding of sorts, you know, gone underground, so he would not be captured again. If he did, then that would explain him in a community hospital setting. Don't forget the hospital is in New York. Not some small little town. Or, perhaps he had no ID on him. I do believe that the man next to Michael is Alvar Hanso. If you go to the HansoFoundation website there is a letter posted by him after he escaped. His picture is there also. Check it out. Print it and then watch Meet Kevin Johnson and look at it. I think it is him. Very much. I also think he may be time traveling while he is lying there. He is comatose and unresponsive, which is exactly what happens to you when your consciousness goes somewhere else. Think Minkowski. Dead to the present world but on a ferris wheel somewhere else.
It is possible.....anything is on this darn show.

I slightly remember those pics. I agree Hanso is the leading candidate. I just thought it strange for a VIP like him to be anywhere in public really. The thought of him being a JON DOE in the hospital crossed my mind.

[notsolost42]

I slightly remember those pics. I agree Hanso is the leading candidate. I just thought it strange for a VIP like him to be anywhere in public really. The thought of him being a JON DOE in the hospital crossed my mind.

Mine either. But I didn't know until Missie told me it was Alvar. I had posted that he looked so familiar but I couldn't place him. She is absolutely right. It is Alvar.

[Missie]

Mine either. But I didn't know until Missie told me it was Alvar. I had posted that he looked so familiar but I couldn't place him. She is absolutely right. It is Alvar.

I THINK it is Hanso... It was never confirmed.

[notsolost42]

I THINK it is Hanso... It was never confirmed.

I understand that but I am really positive you are right!!! All this stuff is unconfirmed!! LOL!!!

[Missie]

I understand that but I am really positive you are right!!! All this stuff is unconfirmed!! LOL!!!

Yeah, what got me was if it is suppose to be an unimportant person why did they zoom in on him? If its not Hanso.. it is def someone else important.

[notsolost42]

Yeah, what got me was if it is suppose to be an unimportant person why did they zoom in on him? If its not Hanso.. it is def someone else important.

Missie, check out what Alvar looked like in the last photo of him:

www.thehansofoundation.org

Now, check out the guy in the bed again. I think you hit the nail on the head.

[persistentlylost]

First off, maybe it really is for the aliens...you never know.
Secondly, what do you mean the DI will never come back? If the Losties did travel back to the DI era with the island then who do you think would be on it? I am confused by what you are thinking. When you say the island doesn't rewind what do you mean? I guess you don't buy Willem Jacob van Stockum's Closed Timelike Curve or as people refer to it in short, Time Loop? What do you think is going on then? I would love to hear some other point of view that makes sense.

Everyone on the island when it moved will still be on the island. It moved in time and space. So it is going to exist in a time it existed before, but not a space it existed before. I suppose everyone in the mass grave could regenerate and climb out of there very confused. If the DI are still alive will there be two Charlotte's? Will there be a young Ben? Will Adam and Eve come back to life too? Will the Swan station un-implode? Will Charlie be alive in the Looking Glass?

[notsolost42]

Everyone on the island when it moved will still be on the island. It moved in time and space. So it is going to exist in a time it existed before, but not a space it existed before. I suppose everyone in the mass grave could regenerate and climb out of there very confused. If the DI are still alive will there be two Charlotte's? Will there be a young Ben? Will Adam and Eve come back to life too? Will the Swan station un-implode? Will Charlie be alive in the Looking Glass?

It's okay not to get it. Don't sweat it.

[beachblinkette]

It would make sense that it is Alvar Hanso in the bed next to Michael. One of those clues they say they are leaving around for us to find. Alvar in Old English means elf or magical army, warrior. In Swedish it means a small native shrub.

Has anyone ever connected all of the hospital-ish scenes we have viewed in this series? Medical, psychological, or research facility-- we have an awful lot of them. Does that seem to be hinting at something larger than just that people go to those places or work at them? Are these places that are "staging areas" for something very pertinent to the show? Why would Hanso be in the same place as Michael and why would he be in coma? These characters have been in a hospital, clinic, or research facility as a patient, a worker or to see someone there.
Christian, Jack, Jack's wife, Hurley, Ana Lucia (when she lost her baby), Kate, Kate's Mom, Claire, Claire's Mom, Charlie (visiting Hurley), Ben, Juliet, Juliet's husband, Juliet's sister, Sun, Jin (to drop off the panda) , Ji Yeon, Dave, Locke, Locke's Dad, Locke's Mom, Ethan, Alex, Sawyer, Libby, Walt's Mom (visiting Michael) Walt and his grandma (visiting Hurley), Shannon, Shannon's stepmom, Sayid (Ben's clinic), Abaddon, Richard, Emily, Emily's Mom, Leonard Sims. There may be some I have forgotten like the DI and others.

Are these places doing something with the people there that we don't know about?

[Saboteur's Requiem]

Yeah very interesting thought....but we don't know for sure if they even traveled back in time, do we?

I think they did, there's a promo on ABC that shows a plane (the one Yemi was on, or one like it) that buzzed the survivors that were left on the island when the donkey wheel was turned.

[beachblinkette]

Does anyone think that Ben wants them all to go back to the island, including Locke, so that he can once more purge everyone? He can then move or have the island back the way it was with him as the foreman and Jacob as his prisoner? With Sayid killing off Ben's supposed enemies, then there would be fewer problem people to deal with. What do you think? That might make the "don't bring him back" idea apply more to Ben than to anyone else.

[notsolost42]

It would make sense that it is Alvar Hanso in the bed next to Michael. One of those clues they say they are leaving around for us to find. Alvar in Old English means elf or magical army, warrior. In Swedish it means a small native shrub.

Has anyone ever connected all of the hospital-ish scenes we have viewed in this series? Medical, psychological, or research facility-- we have an awful lot of them. Does that seem to be hinting at something larger than just that people go to those places or work at them? Are these places that are "staging areas" for something very pertinent to the show? Why would Hanso be in the same place as Michael and why would he be in coma? These characters have been in a hospital, clinic, or research facility as a patient, a worker or to see someone there.
Christian, Jack, Jack's wife, Hurley, Ana Lucia (when she lost her baby), Kate, Kate's Mom, Claire, Claire's Mom, Charlie (visiting Hurley), Ben, Juliet, Juliet's husband, Juliet's sister, Sun, Jin (to drop off the panda) , Ji Yeon, Dave, Locke, Locke's Dad, Locke's Mom, Ethan, Alex, Sawyer, Libby, Walt's Mom (visiting Michael) Walt and his grandma (visiting Hurley), Shannon, Shannon's stepmom, Sayid (Ben's clinic), Abaddon, Richard, Emily, Emily's Mom, Leonard Sims. There may be some I have forgotten like the DI and others.

Are these places doing something with the people there that we don't know about?

Good point Beach, as usual! Now, don't forget we found that Locke's mother Emily was in Santa Rosa also. And one other little point that may be connected to this medical side....the Others always take a blood sample from everyone they capture. Michael, Jack, Kate, Sawyer, they all had little bandaids on their arms from a blood draw.

[5starboss]

BeachBlinkette, I like the idea about the hospitals being connected.

Assuming the dude next to Micheal is Alvar, and considering he's from the Black Rock era.....what if his extreme old age is the cause of his hospitalization. Perhaps he is undergoing some treatment for regeneration. I know he's just laying there zombified, so that's a big stretch.

One tangent from this idea leads to Juilette's research in Conception and Birth. Perhaps Ben, in all his royal douchebaggedness, realizes how important the research is because it's related to the Valenzetti Equation and the extinction of all mankind on the planet. Richard said it was a waste of time( something not to be taken lightly on the Island). BUT perhaps the Island is a precursor to what will occur in the rest of the world and Ben is looking to prevent this impending catastrophe.

The Island can extend life but also prevents it. A catch-22....black stone/white stone...light\dark...

[notsolost42]

BeachBlinkette, I like the idea about the hospitals being connected.

Assuming the dude next to Micheal is Alvar, and considering he's from the Black Rock era.....what if his extreme old age is the cause of his hospitalization. Perhaps he is undergoing some treatment for regeneration. I know he's just laying there zombified, so that's a big stretch.

One tangent from this idea leads to Juilette's research in Conception and Birth. Perhaps Ben, in all his royal douchebaggedness, realizes how important the research is because it's related to the Valenzetti Equation and the extinction of all mankind on the planet. Richard said it was a waste of time( something not to be taken lightly on the Island). BUT perhaps the Island is a precursor to what will occur in the rest of the world and Ben is looking to prevent this impending catastrophe.

The Island can extend life but also prevents it. A catch-22....black stone/white stone...light\dark...

Ben called everything the DI did "silly little experiments." I would doubt it.
Alvar wasn't on the Black Rock. His grandfather or great grandfather was involved. His name is Magnus Hanso.

[beachblinkette]

Ben called everything the DI did "silly little experiments." I would doubt it.
Alvar wasn't on the Black Rock. His grandfather or great grandfather was involved. His name is Magnus Hanso.
I'll bet my Mars bars that it is Alvar in that bed. He looks exactly like him. Otherwise I have to go with the twin theory or the clone idea!! Or the writers, like Geithner, have just made a silly mistake!! LOL

[notsolost42]

I'll bet my Mars bars that it is Alvar in that bed. He looks exactly like him. Otherwise I have to go with the twin theory or the clone idea!! Or the writers, like Geithner, have just made a silly mistake!! LOL

Bet those Mars Bars and your Apollo Bars...they'll be perfectly safe. You know as well as I do it's Alvar and he is time traveling! Where and when is he though. That's what I want to know. I do so love those subtle clues they leave for us. The devil is in the details!

[5starboss]

Ben called everything the DI did "silly little experiments." I would doubt it.

I don't believe everything Bens says. Why would he continue the research if it was silly?





Alvar wasn't on the Black Rock. His grandfather or great grandfather was involved. His name is Magnus Hanso.

That doesn't discount him from being involved with the Island and thus his age being extended. I didn't say he was on the Black Rock. I said he was from that ERA. If he was 2-3 generations from Magnus, that's about 40-80 years difference which means he's still old if he's alive.


If Magnus was 60 in 1845 then his grandkids might be about 10-20. That means Alvar in 2000 ( 155 years later) would be pushing 180 years old.

[gingergrant]

Everyone on the island when it moved will still be on the island. It moved in time and space. So it is going to exist in a time it existed before, but not a space it existed before. I suppose everyone in the mass grave could regenerate and climb out of there very confused. If the DI are still alive will there be two Charlotte's? Will there be a young Ben? Will Adam and Eve come back to life too? Will the Swan station un-implode? Will Charlie be alive in the Looking Glass?

gee, this sort of goes along with Damon and Carlton joking about the 7th season being the Zombie season!

[notsolost42]

I don't believe everything Bens says. Why would he continue the research if it was silly?







That doesn't discount him from being involved with the Island and thus his age being extended. I didn't say he was on the Black Rock. I said he was from that ERA. If he was 2-3 generations from Magnus, that's about 40-80 years difference which means he's still old if he's alive.


If Magnus was 60 in 1845 then his grandkids might be about 10-20. That means Alvar in 2000 ( 155 years later) would be pushing 180 years old.

Okay, Ben is a lot of things, true. But in reality, he usually doesn't lie. He just omits pieces of the truth. Ben didn't continue the DI experiments. When Ben became the leader of the Others he was shown the secrets of the island by Richard Alpert. I know this is fact because when you watch the season 4 finale and Ben is turning everything over to Locke before he goes to the ice caves he tells Locke to meet his people and that they are 2 miles sw or whatever of the Orchid. He also tells Locke that as leader they will show him the secrets of the island and do all his bidding. So, Ben didn't continue any experiments at all. Ben was told of the island secrets and one of them was the ice caves and the wheel and whatever it is behind the wall the glows and causes the shift of spacetime on the island. The DI never knew it was there. They only knew of the EM that caused the Casimir Effect and that there was a pocket of it.

[beachblinkette]

I don't believe everything Bens says. Why would he continue the research if it was silly?







That doesn't discount him from being involved with the Island and thus his age being extended. I didn't say he was on the Black Rock. I said he was from that ERA. If he was 2-3 generations from Magnus, that's about 40-80 years difference which means he's still old if he's alive.


If Magnus was 60 in 1845 then his grandkids might be about 10-20. That means Alvar in 2000 ( 155 years later) would be pushing 180 years old.
We don't know exactly how old Richard is, so there's a possibility that Alvar's age might extend beyond 180 years. Is there an unknown factor that these guys have discovered when they were a certain age and then they don't age beyond that? Just a thought....

[notsolost42]

We don't know exactly how old Richard is, so there's a possibility that Alvar's age might extend beyond 180 years. Is there an unknown factor that these guys have discovered when they were a certain age and then they don't age beyond that? Just a thought....

Alvar does age. If you watch the Sri Lanka video you see him as a much younger man in the 1960's. His photo on the Hanso Foundation website is much different and you can see he has aged. Magnus was probably on the Black Rock.

[5starboss]

Okay, Ben is a lot of things, true. But in reality, he usually doesn't lie. He just omits pieces of the truth.


"A half truth is a whole lie." Lying is Ben's forte'. If there was a championship, he'd be a back-to-back winner every year. He lies more than a politician. He doesn't just omit the truth, I think he's allergic to it. I can't remember too many times he was blatantly truthful when his life or position wasn't in jeopardy. Even though we may not see eye to eye I still appreciate and like your ideas, nsl42. I hope I don't come across as mean.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Deceptions_and_cons#Ben

===Convinced most of his people (besides Richard Alpert) into thinking that he was born on the Island.

===Posed as Henry Gale when captured by the Losties.

===Set up an elaborate plan where Michael would be used to lure Jack, Kate, and Sawyer into an ambush. As a part of the plan, Jack would eventually be convinced to treat Ben's medical condition.

===Sent spies to infiltrate the Losties. Ethan to report on the Mid-Section Survivors. Goodwin to report on the Tail-Section Survivors.

===Tricked Sawyer into thinking that they had implanted a pacemaker in his body that would cause his heart to explode.

===Manipulated Locke into believing they shared the same goals.

===Told Jack that the others were going to kill Jin, Sayid, and Bernard if he didn't give up the satellite phone.

===Told Alexandra that her mother was dead.

===Told Locke that he had no idea why Charles Widmore wanted the island, but later revealed that he did know.

... Ben didn't continue the DI experiments. When Ben became the leader of the Others he was shown the secrets of the island by Richard Alpert. I know this is fact because when you watch the season 4 finale and Ben is turning everything over to Locke before he goes to the ice caves he tells Locke to meet his people and that they are 2 miles sw or whatever of the Orchid. He also tells Locke that as leader they will show him the secrets of the island and do all his bidding. So, Ben didn't continue any experiments at all. Ben was told of the island secrets and one of them was the ice caves and the wheel and whatever it is behind the wall the glows and causes the shift of spacetime on the island. The DI never knew it was there. They only knew of the EM that caused the Casimir Effect and that there was a pocket of it.

When Juliette was recruited by Richard Alpert it was with Mittleos Bioscience. I guess in my mind I always thought it was the DI in disguise. So you're right about the experiments not being the DI. No matter who started the Birth and Conception research is secondary to the overall purpose. As well as the Island being fundamental to any research period. I was mainly thinking about the importance of the research to Ben despite some of the Others' silent objection. I was also assuming Ben was researching this to find a way around the Valenzetti equation.

[5starboss]

We don't know exactly how old Richard is, so there's a possibility that Alvar's age might extend beyond 180 years. Is there an unknown factor that these guys have discovered when they were a certain age and then they don't age beyond that? Just a thought....

These guys could have been coming and going on/off the Island since the Middle ages. Maybe the more time spent off the Island---the effects begin to wear and aging resumes after a certain period of time.

[notsolost42]

No offense ever taken so don't you worry about that one! Ben is a lot of things, like I said. He is a sociopath, a bit psychotic and the master manipulator. If you call all that a superb liar, then I agree with you completely. I just chose different words I guess.

As for Mittelos Bioscience, yes that is not part of the DI that I am aware of. It may have been a part of the Hanso Foundation though I can't remember for sure. I do agree with you that it must be a well thought out part of the Others. We know that they are not just some leftover, barefoot tribe on the island. They are a very sophisticated, international group with a great deal of money and power behind them. We cannot ever forget that part of this puzzle.

[5starboss]

... They are a very sophisticated, international group with a great deal of money and power behind them. We cannot ever forget that part of this puzzle.

ever hear of the Illuminati?

[gingergrant]

ever hear of the Illuminati?
I sort of thought of Illuminati when I saw the spoilerish trailer with the hooded man. Hope that's not too much info.

[Archangel-Player]

If Charlotte and Daniel dismantled the poison gas and the island is going to travel back in time...does that mean there will be no purge?

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I would think the events that took place after the Purge such as Dan and Charloet dismantaling the gas. Would not have a effect on the Purge since The Purge happend sevral yrs before that. Also the Purge was excuted usind Mustard gas from gernade type canasters. Just as the one used on Ben`s father by Ben.

[notsolost42]

ever hear of the Illuminati?

Not off hand, tell me.

[Archangel-Player]

That's it! It was Alvar Hanso!!! YES!!! YES!!!! YES!!!! Exactly!!! Most definitely. No doubt! Yahoooo!!!! So, it appears Alvar is time traveling then. That would make sense! Okay, now I have some thinking to do! Great call!!!! Great, great call Missie!!! Thank you! It has been bugging me for a long time!!!!!
As for the rules of time travel. They have been established ever since Mrs. Hawking showed Des. TPTB have already said, a long time ago at that, that time travel rules were in that episode. You cannot change the future or your destiny. You only have the choice of how you get there. The outcome will not be different.

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Hmmmm. What if your Destney was to change time? Kinda like God created Lucifer to only have his Destney to destroy all that is. life,time,etc. If your able to travel in time it's only because your Destney allowed it. Bet you never thought it that way ;-)

[5starboss]

Not off hand, tell me.

They are a very sophisticated, international group with a great deal of money and power behind them.

basically what you had described. it's the central group that is supposedly pulling the strings of world powers, according to conspiracy theorists. Like an invisible government that has powerful people planted in positions of influence and vast amounts of resources. It's also associated with se3cet societies like the skull and bones, freemasons, bilderburgs, trilateral commision,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminati
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_society

I googled these. I know it's way more extensive than the WIKI page has. If it interests you, you can dig deeper.

[Archangel-Player]

I think perhaps moving the island and time travel may be two different things!



It's a bit confusing seeing the island moved litraly and vanished to only tune in next season to what seems to be pre-Purge times. So what became of the island that we saw vanish. I suspect that it was replced with this pre-Purge verson. The reason it's not there in 2004-2007 is because it's time is waiting to be writen. By the events that accure this season.

[notsolost42]

They are a very sophisticated, international group with a great deal of money and power behind them.

basically what you had described. it's the central group that is supposedly pulling the strings of world powers, according to conspiracy theorists. Like an invisible government that has powerful people planted in positions of influence and vast amounts of resources.

Yes, thank you. I googled them. Interesting and yes, that is what the Others are like....

[persistentlylost]

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I would think the events that took place after the Purge such as Dan and Charloet dismantaling the gas. Would not have a effect on the Purge since The Purge happend sevral yrs before that. Also the Purge was excuted usind Mustard gas from gernade type canasters. Just as the one used on Ben`s father by Ben.

You're probably right. In my mind there is a difference between the people on the island time traveling and the island, with the people on it time traveling. For example...if you time travel in your front yard 20 years into the past and you are standing next to a tree that is 15 years old, it would not be there when you arive in the past. On the other hand, if you are holding a potted plant that is 1 year old and travel 20 years in the past, the plant would travel with you unaffected. It would not dissappear because it traveled in time too.

So if only the people traveled back in time, and not the island, then Daniel and Charlotte's acts would be irrelevant. But if the island traveled with them, their acts would be relevant. Since the island dissappeared, i believe it traveled with them. That is why I presented this question.

Also, I think Ben's father was the only one killed by the gas cannister. Much like Locke with his father, Ben had to affect his father's death to become the leader and this was mostly a gesture. The rest were probably killed by the gas. There would be too much risk of someone surviving if only gas cannisters were used.

Maybe notso can clear this up. Help me notso, you're my only hope!

[persistentlylost]

Of course, there is also a time loop theory that I know little to nothing about which may explain all of this.

[5starboss]

Maybe notso can clear this up. Help me notso, you're my only hope!

notsokinobi:D

[notsolost42]

notsokinobi:D

Very cute! Okay, I'll try to help.
First of all, I really think we are watching two different methods of time travel. Sorry to confuse you all but it's true...
The first kind is the one that Daniel Faraday was doing his experiments with and what Des and Minkowski experienced. In this type of travel only your conscioussness travels and not your physical being. You are in two places at once physically. The problem is that the you in the spacetime that has traveled either forward or backward is lifeless. Not dead but unconsciouss and comatose. Remember Eloise the rat?
So, that's the first kind. I believe the second kind of time travel is going to be one of the physical nature. We really did see a glimpse of it when Dr. Cheng made the bunny time travel. It reappeared with the present one by mistake. Remember the video? I think it is really the first half of the Orchid video or maybe the second half where it cuts off and begins to automatically rewind. Anyway, there were two physical beings present in the same spacetime. It appears that the white pod in the Orchid seems to be for a physical move. It reminded me of the thing from old Star Trek shows. I think that is the secret that Ben knows about and how the island moves in spacetime. I don't think Daniel's experiments caught up to that.
Did I help or confuse more or not even answer your questions at all! I don't even remembe your question anymore! LOL!!!
Of course, you do know that I could easily be completely wrong!!!!