Yemi's Plane

[notsolost42]

I've said this before and I think now I can almost prove it. Yemi's plane, the Beechcraft, traveled through the wormhole that Ben used when he turned the wheel.

When Ben turned the wheel he ended up in the Tunisian desert. I believe that at the same time Yemi's plane was flying north from Nigeria with the drugs and was near the wormhole. They established on the episode that they could not sell the drugs in Nigeria. Tunisia makes sense for drug smuggling. So, Yemi's plane got sucked in as Ben was exiting this wormhole.

Think about it. Ben turned the wheel. The island disappeared with the ultraviolet sky catastrophe. We see the losties just getting their barings afterwards. Locke suddenly sees a plane plumeting through the sky and crashes. We had a clue about this from TPTB in an old episode, perhaps season one, when Charlie has a dream about Aaron. It was the dream sequence where Hurley was dressed as Moses, Claire was Mother Mary or someone, etc. If you watch very carefully, you can see a dot appear in the sky when the birds fly past. It is the beechcraft. If you slow down to a frame by frame on your DVD you can actually see it. Also, TPTB mentioned it in a commentary.

I've been trying to set up a timeline of their time jumps. This would fit in as the first time jump left them on the island before they got there. It could easily fit that Yemi's plane arrived at that point. Essentially, as far as a timeline, they are bouncing back and forth, getting a little closer to present each time they jump. They are jumping just like I always said that Desmond did when the Swan imploded.

[ortrules]

I'm not really following. At the same time Ben moved the island and jumped to Tunisia, Yemi's plane entered the same wormhole and jumped to the island?

When Ben arrives in Tunisia, it's October 2005. So doesn't that mean Yemi's plane would have left Nigeria sometime in October 2005? Obviously, that can't be.

Yemi's plane could have, however, gone through a wormhole when the island was moved by whoever moved it before Ben. Which brings me to a theory you made me think of. What if the island is not randomly bouncing through time, but instead is jumping to various times when the island was (or will be) moved?

[notsolost42]

I'm not really following. At the same time Ben moved the island and jumped to Tunisia, Yemi's plane entered the same wormhole and jumped to the island?

When Ben arrives in Tunisia, it's October 2005. So doesn't that mean Yemi's plane would have left Nigeria sometime in October 2005? Obviously, that can't be.

Yemi's plane could have, however, gone through a wormhole when the island was moved by whoever moved it before Ben. Which brings me to a theory you made me think of. What if the island is not randomly bouncing through time, but instead is jumping to various times when the island was (or will be) moved?

Don't think of it in terms of when Ben arrived in Tunisia but rather when the island made its first time jump backwards instead. They are two different times. Unless, it's the wormhole the island is traveling through then and not Ben...hmmm...more thinking to be done!
I like your theory. It's interesting to think about. I don't know if it is plausible or not but worthwhile to consider. I'll give it thought. I like it.

[StormyKnight]

Both interesting theories. I was thinking the island could be jumping back and forth from future to past like a pendulum. As the effect from the move slows, the time effect will get closer and closer to the present....which might explain why we haven't seen the present time on the island yet. Eventually the effect will slow and stop-- landing in the present. I'm not sure about how the "hand chopping guys" fit in though. They must have been from the past but where they fit in hasn't been revealed yet. I wonder if the pendulum we saw in the church is tracking the island's swing back and forth from present to future. (?) Thoughts?

[ortrules]

Interesting idea about the pendulum, though I'm still not entirely convinced the island was going from the past to future. It seems more to me that the island could be jumping from present to past, or recent past to distant past.

1st Flash: Definitely past. The camp for the 815 survivors is gone (not built yet) and Locke witnesses Yemi's plane crash.

2nd Flash: Richard finds Locke next to the beechcraft, which is now on the ground where it is in the present. Richard has complete knowledge that the island has been moved. Meanwhile, Sawyer and company find a destroyed hatch. While this could have taken place in the future, there's nothing to suggest it one way or the other. But I'm going to say it takes place in the present time, not too long after Ben turned the wheel.

3rd Flash: Definitely past. The hatch has returned to a time before it was discovered. Dan later finds Desmond still living there. Locke status is unknown other than he's working his way to the main camp as we see him after the next flash.

4th Flash: Main camp is still missing their stuff and trying to make a fire. Later that night they are attacked by some random group that we don't know to identity of. Sawyer, Juliet and company run into 3 guys in suits, with old-fashion looking guns, asking "what are you doing on our island?" Locke appears and these men are taken out.

[notsolost42]

Yes, they are going from present to distant past, back forward a bit, back to past not quite as far back as the first time, etc. That's exactly what happened to Des when he bounced back and forth after the Swan imploded. Everyone should go back and rewatch that episode. I have always described it as the slingshot effect for some reason. I wrote in the past (no pun intended) that it was like bouncing a ball inbetween two walls and letting it keep bouncing. The inertia will keep it bouncing but it is slowing down as it goes. As the exotic matter cools off again they are slowing down. That's what happens, trust me on this science. The exotic matter gets hot when the wheel is turned because it is exposed. As it cools again and goes back to normal the time jumps slow and then come to a stop...but who knows where or when!

[losttime]

I couldnt remember how many time skips there were. When I was watching it I noticed the record skipped 5 times. I expected it to coincide with one of the Numbers so prevalent throughout the show. Than I thought maybe it would be an indication to how many times the Island would time skip in the episode but no correlation that I was aware of. I wonder if the Numbers are becoming less of a focus this season. I know I might be looking too much into it but seriously all along the story of Lost, those Numbers were such a big part of the story. Even when you watched the Flash Forwards and at Hurleys surprise party the enhanced version made it known that there were a certain number of Palm trees and so forth that all related to the numbers.

[lostinlost]

Interesting idea about the pendulum, though I'm still not entirely convinced the island was going from the past to future. It seems more to me that the island could be jumping from present to past, or recent past to distant past.

1st Flash: Definitely past. The camp for the 815 survivors is gone (not built yet) and Locke witnesses Yemi's plane crash.

2nd Flash: Richard finds Locke next to the beechcraft, which is now on the ground where it is in the present. Richard has complete knowledge that the island has been moved. Meanwhile, Sawyer and company find a destroyed hatch. While this could have taken place in the future, there's nothing to suggest it one way or the other. But I'm going to say it takes place in the present time, not too long after Ben turned the wheel.

3rd Flash: Definitely past. The hatch has returned to a time before it was discovered. Dan later finds Desmond still living there. Locke status is unknown other than he's working his way to the main camp as we see him after the next flash.

4th Flash: Main camp is still missing their stuff and trying to make a fire. Later that night they are attacked by some random group that we don't know to identity of. Sawyer, Juliet and company run into 3 guys in suits, with old-fashion looking guns, asking "what are you doing on our island?" Locke appears and these men are taken out.

I agree with your assessment of the time jumps. Here was what I caught. When Richard finds Locke, shot by Ethan's bullet (from the past), and administers first aid removing the bullet, he mentions that Locke's been jumping saying something like what been happening to "you" which to me implied that Richard was NOT moving through time at all. Does the Richard group (who does not age) ...the Others...do they move through time when everyone else does?

[notsolost42]

I agree with your assessment of the time jumps. Here was what I caught. When Richard finds Locke, shot by Ethan's bullet (from the past), and administers first aid removing the bullet, he mentions that Locke's been jumping saying something like what been happening to "you" which to me implied that Richard was NOT moving through time at all. Does the Richard group (who does not age) ...the Others...do they move through time when everyone else does?

The obvious answer is yes because when Richard gave Locke the compass he told him that next time they saw each other he (Richard) would not recognize him (Locke). So, Richard and the others are time jumping also. I think the compass is Locke's constant also.

[ortrules]

The obvious answer is yes because when Richard gave Locke the compass he told him that next time they saw each other he (Richard) would not recognize him (Locke). So, Richard and the others are time jumping also. I think the compass is Locke's constant also.

If Richard is time jumping like Locke is, then Richard WOULD recognize Locke because that would be his present self time traveled to the past. Basically, Locke and the other survivors are jumping through time with full knowledge of everything that happened up to 2005 when the island started moving (present day). The people they run into are obviously the past versions of people (Ethan and Desmond) so they don't recognize Locke or Dan or anyone else. I think this is what Richard was trying to tell Locke, that at some point, Locke is going to run into a past version of Richard and he won't know who Locke is.

Here's my take on Richard and the Others. They are not time traveling - which is why they "disappeared" when Locke found himself in the past. I believe that Richard and the Others either have something that allows them to avoid time traveling, or they've all been prepped with constants so that they are able to stay in the present time or not be affected by the island moving.

[notsolost42]

If Richard is time jumping like Locke is, then Richard WOULD recognize Locke because that would be his present self time traveled to the past. Basically, Locke and the other survivors are jumping through time with full knowledge of everything that happened up to 2005 when the island started moving (present day). The people they run into are obviously the past versions of people (Ethan and Desmond) so they don't recognize Locke or Dan or anyone else. I think this is what Richard was trying to tell Locke, that at some point, Locke is going to run into a past version of Richard and he won't know who Locke is.

Here's my take on Richard and the Others. They are not time traveling - which is why they "disappeared" when Locke found himself in the past. I believe that Richard and the Others either have something that allows them to avoid time traveling, or they've all been prepped with constants so that they are able to stay in the present time or not be affected by the island moving.

No, you are missing the point. Richard knew Locke when he time jumped because he had already met him. That was on the second time jump, right? I am trying to remember all this stuff. The beechcraft had already fallen from the trees so that means it was after Boone had died. I just don't recall if it was after Locke and Eko burned it or before. I think before because the bodies were still inside. Richard and Locke definitely met at that point already. Richard gives Locke the compass because on the next time jump he will not recognize Locke. So that means it would have to be before he met him as a child or when Locke was born. So I think we're going to go into the wayback machine for a while to the early DI or possibly before. It's a matter of matching up lots of bits and pieces to figure out when we are but they fit.

[StormyKnight]

Well now I'm just more confused than before!:D

[notsolost42]

Well now I'm just more confused than before!:D

Don't worry. I'm going to start a Timeline thread so everyone will be onboard. It's not as hard as you think. TPTB are leaving us clues along the way so we know when we are. We just have to look for them!

[ortrules]

No, you are missing the point. Richard knew Locke when he time jumped because he had already met him. That was on the second time jump, right? I am trying to remember all this stuff. The beechcraft had already fallen from the trees so that means it was after Boone had died. I just don't recall if it was after Locke and Eko burned it or before. I think before because the bodies were still inside. Richard and Locke definitely met at that point already. Richard gives Locke the compass because on the next time jump he will not recognize Locke. So that means it would have to be before he met him as a child or when Locke was born. So I think we're going to go into the wayback machine for a while to the early DI or possibly before. It's a matter of matching up lots of bits and pieces to figure out when we are but they fit.

I don't understand what I said that's any different than what you're saying - what am I missing the point of? Yes, Locke and Richard knew each other at the 2nd flash (after Locke was shot) because it was near the present. And the reason Locke was given the compass was because Richard knew Locke would go to a time before Richard knew Locke.

Then I went on to give my theory that both of them are not time traveling. If they both were, then we'd assume they are time traveling together (much like Locke and the other flight survivors), which means they'd again recognize each other. Obviously though, Richard knows that Locke will meet a past version of Richard that doesn't know Locke - so we can say Richard is not time traveling like Locke and the others are.

[notsolost42]

I don't understand what I said that's any different than what you're saying - what am I missing the point of? Yes, Locke and Richard knew each other at the 2nd flash (after Locke was shot) because it was near the present. And the reason Locke was given the compass was because Richard knew Locke would go to a time before Richard knew Locke.

Then I went on to give my theory that both of them are not time traveling. If they both were, then we'd assume they are time traveling together (much like Locke and the other flight survivors), which means they'd again recognize each other. Obviously though, Richard knows that Locke will meet a past version of Richard that doesn't know Locke - so we can say Richard is not time traveling like Locke and the others are.

Okay, I think I see what you are saying. Richard is stagnant and Locke and the losties are moving in spacetime? I don't agree though. If that were the case and Richard wasn't time jumping also then he would always remember who Locke is. If they all time jump back to a point before Locke's birth then Richard doesn't know who he is yet because they haven't "met". I still say they are both time jumping.

[heatwave]

I agree with Ort. I think what Richard means is the grown up version on Locke will travel back in time to when even before Locke was born. Richard will see the adult Locke, and of course not recognise him. Locke will then give him the compass, and tell Richard that he know him from the future.

Richard will then go to the hospital where Locke is born and watch him as he grows. Then he does that test where he tells locke which of these items are yours, and when he doesn't pick the compass he gets upset and leaves.

[notsolost42]

I agree with Ort. I think what Richard means is the grown up version on Locke will travel back in time to when even before Locke was born. Richard will see the adult Locke, and of course not recognise him. Locke will then give him the compass, and tell Richard that he know him from the future.

Richard will then go to the hospital where Locke is born and watch him as he grows. Then he does that test where he tells locke which of these items are yours, and when he doesn't pick the compass he gets upset and leaves.

But that IS what I am saying also then. Read what I wrote in the TIMELINE.

[Archangel-Player]

If Richard is time jumping like Locke is, then Richard WOULD recognize Locke because that would be his present self time traveled to the past. Basically, Locke and the other survivors are jumping through time with full knowledge of everything that happened up to 2005 when the island started moving (present day). The people they run into are obviously the past versions of people (Ethan and Desmond) so they don't recognize Locke or Dan or anyone else. I think this is what Richard was trying to tell Locke, that at some point, Locke is going to run into a past version of Richard and he won't know who Locke is.

Here's my take on Richard and the Others. They are not time traveling - which is why they "disappeared" when Locke found himself in the past. I believe that Richard and the Others either have something that allows them to avoid time traveling, or they've all been prepped with constants so that they are able to stay in the present time or not be affected by the island moving.

About your point with Richard and the "others". My theory with them is. No they arn`t time traveling as the Losties. Because at some point in the past they have experienced a similar senario when the island was moved. So they have been taught how to cope with it. The compass is most likely Richard`s constant.us So when Locked shows it to any verson of Richard he will know he knows Locke and that the island had been "moved"

[heatwave]

notsolost, you claim that Richard is time jumping. I agree with Ort that he is not. The rest we might be saying the same things about.

[ortrules]

Okay, I think I see what you are saying. Richard is stagnant and Locke and the losties are moving in spacetime? I don't agree though. If that were the case and Richard wasn't time jumping also then he would always remember who Locke is. If they all time jump back to a point before Locke's birth then Richard doesn't know who he is yet because they haven't "met". I still say they are both time jumping.

This doesn't make any sense to me. How can both Locke and Richard travel back to a time where Richard doesn't remember Locke? Basically, you're saying that they both go back in time and Richard loses his memory. When Locke went back in time he went back to a time before Flight 815 crashed, but he didn't "forget" about crashing on the island simply because it hasn't happened yet. That's not how it works.

And Richard would not always remember who Locke is. Let's say Locke goes back in time and meets Richard in 1900. Well, that's when they first meet, so for as long as Richard lives past 1900, he will know Locke. However, if Locke travels back in time to 1899, Richard will not know who he is.

[thelawgiver]

Interesting idea about the pendulum, though I'm still not entirely convinced the island was going from the past to future. It seems more to me that the island could be jumping from present to past, or recent past to distant past.

1st Flash: Definitely past. The camp for the 815 survivors is gone (not built yet) and Locke witnesses Yemi's plane crash.

2nd Flash: Richard finds Locke next to the beechcraft, which is now on the ground where it is in the present. Richard has complete knowledge that the island has been moved. Meanwhile, Sawyer and company find a destroyed hatch. While this could have taken place in the future, there's nothing to suggest it one way or the other. But I'm going to say it takes place in the present time, not too long after Ben turned the wheel.

3rd Flash: Definitely past. The hatch has returned to a time before it was discovered. Dan later finds Desmond still living there. Locke status is unknown other than he's working his way to the main camp as we see him after the next flash.

4th Flash: Main camp is still missing their stuff and trying to make a fire. Later that night they are attacked by some random group that we don't know to identity of. Sawyer, Juliet and company run into 3 guys in suits, with old-fashion looking guns, asking "what are you doing on our island?" Locke appears and these men are taken out.

I believe the second flash is the near past, not the present. When Locke crawls into the plane, he spies the heroin loaded statues of Mary. So, he is somewhere between episode 2.19 (when Boone falls in the plane) and episode 2.22 (when Charlie tosses the statues). So Locke is at a time with the other LOSTIES and himself. Will they run into each other? Is that what the whispers are about?

At the second flashback, Juliette, Daniel and the others find the hatch intact, right? Why? Should'n't they find it all dug up by Locke and Boone, with Locke's elaborate mechanism to smash the window. He had not yet blown it up with dynamite, but it was a major excavation. Later, Locke reconnects with Sawyer and Juliette after the fourth flash. So if they are moving in time at the same moments, the hatch issue is all wrong.

[Unbridled Pageantry]

thelawgiver
I believe the second flash is the near past, not the present. Whne Locke crawls into the plane, he spies the heroin loaded statues of Mary. So, he is somewhere between episode 2.19 (when Boone falls in the plane) and episode 2.22 (when Charlie tosses the statues). So Locke is at a time with the other LOSTIES and himself. Will they run into each other? Is that what the whispers are about?

But at that time Rose, Bernard, Frogurt, Vincent, and the rest were still on the beach. All of them never left the beach until the flaming arrows. So if they were actually between episodes 2.19 and 2.22 wouldnt that mean that there'd be problems at the beach when all the Rose's and Frogurts collided?

[00sco200]

I've said this before and I think now I can almost prove it. Yemi's plane, the Beechcraft, traveled through the wormhole that Ben used when he turned the wheel.

When Ben turned the wheel he ended up in the Tunisian desert. I believe that at the same time Yemi's plane was flying north from Nigeria with the drugs and was near the wormhole. They established on the episode that they could not sell the drugs in Nigeria. Tunisia makes sense for drug smuggling. So, Yemi's plane got sucked in as Ben was exiting this wormhole.

Think about it. Ben turned the wheel. The island disappeared with the ultraviolet sky catastrophe. We see the losties just getting their barings afterwards. Locke suddenly sees a plane plumeting through the sky and crashes. We had a clue about this from TPTB in an old episode, perhaps season one, when Charlie has a dream about Aaron. It was the dream sequence where Hurley was dressed as Moses, Claire was Mother Mary or someone, etc. If you watch very carefully, you can see a dot appear in the sky when the birds fly past. It is the beechcraft. If you slow down to a frame by frame on your DVD you can actually see it. Also, TPTB mentioned it in a commentary.

I've been trying to set up a timeline of their time jumps. This would fit in as the first time jump left them on the island before they got there. It could easily fit that Yemi's plane arrived at that point. Essentially, as far as a timeline, they are bouncing back and forth, getting a little closer to present each time they jump. They are jumping just like I always said that Desmond did when the Swan imploded.

nah i dont get it sorry

[thelawgiver]

...and still confused on the flashes. Or am I confusing these. Please help.

1st Flash
The past when Yemi's plane hits the Island and no camp.

2nd Flash
Somewhere between episode 2.19 and 2.22 for Locke at the Beechcraft. But Daniel's group is spying an imploded hatch, which did not happen until the thrid season, right?

3rd Flash
Yemi's plane on ledge (pre-Boone/Locke).
Daniel group at intact hatch, with parnoid Des inside before discovery by Locke.
Frogurt and other LOSTIES on the beach (did not describe any reapparance of the camp). So must be some pre-Oceanic crash time.

4th Flash
Don't observe re Locke.
All Losties on the beach and appears to be an earlier time

[thelawgiver]

But at that time Rose, Bernard, Frogurt, Vincent, and the rest were still on the beach. All of them never left the beach until the flaming arrows. So if they were actually between episodes 2.19 and 2.22 wouldnt that mean that there'd be problems at the beach when all the Rose's and Frogurts collided?

My thought also. However, I could not remember if they all marched to the Hatch with Daniel or not.

But given what Locke saw in the plane and it was on the ground, it is the only plausable time frame. You could probably extent it to when Ecko torched the plane, but that was not much later.

[Unbridled Pageantry]

thelawgiver
My thought also. However, I could not remember if they all marched to the Hatch with Daniel or not.

But given what Locke saw in the plane and it was on the ground, it is the only plausable time frame. You could probably extent it to when Ecko torched the plane, but that was not much later.

. I just went and watched when John goes into Yemi's plane, and I think I agree with you about the timeline of the plane. But then how could the people on the beach not collide with each other??? I can't see that John is moving seperately than the rest of the survivors, because how would he meet back up with them at the right times again?
The crate with some of the Mary statues still has straw in it, couldn't have been after the fire, but the plane looks burnt up and more overgrown than we've ever seen it.

I don't get this one.

[heatwave]

First flash it is in the past. We don't know when though. Locke is running in the rain looking for anybody and the main group talks to Faraday and begin to walk towards the hatch. Locke sees the plane crash and goes to it. He is shot in the leg. Meanwhile the main group is asking Daniel questions about the time travel. There is another flash.

Now it is dark. It is either present or a little in the future. Richard finds Locke and tells him that future Locke tells him about his leg injury and about the compass. The main group is at the exploded hatch. There is another flash.

Now it is day again and in the past. There is smoke coming from the beachcraft still so it is very close to the time Locke got shot by Ethan. At the same time, the main group finds that the hatch is still intact and Sawyer tries to go to the backdoor. Juliette convinces him to go back to the beach, which they all do except Daniel. He looks through his journal, and decides maybe he has a chance to talk to Des. Des doesn't recognize Daniel at first and is more upset about who he is and why he was banging on the door for 20minutes. He eveb wonders if Daniel is his replacement, but does say "Do I know you?" Daniel tells him to contact his mother and there is another flash.

Now the main group arrives at the camp to find it not there again so we go even further into the past as they get ambushed and those machete guys look to be dressed in old attire. Locke shows up to save them.

I understand that Locke is time traveling at the same time and to the same times as the main group. Since Locke is at the smoking plane while the main group is at the hatch where Des is, you can conclude that the Yemi's plane crashed during the time between when Inman died and the Oceanic crash.

[Unbridled Pageantry]

heatwave
I understand that Locke is time traveling at the same time and to the same times as the main group. Since Locke is at the smoking plane while the main group is at the hatch where Des is, you can conclude that the Yemi's plane crashed during the time between when Inman died and the Oceanic crash.

What Lawgiver and I were talking about was the contents of the plane; they don't add up.
When Locke goes into the plane before Richard finds him, there is the Mary statue crate. It isn't burned, none of the statues are charred, and there's still packing straw inside of the crate. So if this takes place after Ecko burned the plane, how in the hell is does that crate still have straw in it?

[lost-a-lot]

The second flash should have taken them to the near future because Richard tells Locke that Kate & Jack are already home. Can't explain the straw, though, unless they just wanted to remind viewers of the events associated with the plane -- without much care for detail?

[Jeremy]

But perhaps the only reason Richard knows that the O6 are already off the island is because Locke or some other Lostie goes into the past to tell him.

[Unbridled Pageantry]

lost-a-lot
The second flash should have taken them to the near future because Richard tells Locke that Kate & Jack are already home. Can't explain the straw, though, unless they just wanted to remind viewers of the events associated with the plane -- without much care for detail?

I've been thinking that too, about it just being a sloppy mistake. I hope that they wouldn't let something like that slip through.
Here's something i've been thinking.
From Richard knowing that John was shot we now know that all of this has happened before, most likely multiple times. What if the Losties are actually not in the time of when the plane that they know fell, but in another one of the loops. Maybe in another loop once Charlie kicked drugs he returned a crate of statues back to the plane, instead of throwing them in the ocean? Something else that might back this up is the imploded hatch. To me it didn't look like the same hole in the ground. This one had alot of debris in it, when the imploded hatch we saw before in season 3 was more dirt.

I don't know, it's just the only way I can explain that damned straw.

[thelawgiver]

Now it is dark. It is either present or a little in the future. Richard finds Locke and tells him that future Locke tells him about his leg injury and about the compass. The main group is at the exploded hatch. There is another flash.



This is the problem area. They are either in the near past or it is a major continuity error. I do not think it is an error, since they very purposefully showed the Mary statues. If it was after Ecko's burning of the plane the stautes would not be there. Its pretty clear that they were all disposed of in S2. [See Lostpedia at http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Virgin_Mary_statue]. If so, the gang at the hatch would not find it exploded, but rather exposed by the excavation by Locke and Boone.

Are they trying to tell us that the small details in time may not always occur in the same way? Note that Charlie could have died in numerous ways before his sacriface at the Looking Glass. Hmmm...something to ponder.

[ortrules]

Good eyes TLG, I didn't notice the contents inside the plane. I would venture a guess to say that because of how Richard spoke to Locke, they have to be in the present because Richard knows the O'6 got off the island and knows that the island was moved.

However, that would be a serious error for them to have placed Virgin Mary statues and straw inside a plane that was burned by Eko. They purposely showed the inside contents of the plane, so you'd think they'd be more consistent and thorough about what they show. So now I don't know what to think.

[notsolost42]

This doesn't make any sense to me. How can both Locke and Richard travel back to a time where Richard doesn't remember Locke? Basically, you're saying that they both go back in time and Richard loses his memory. When Locke went back in time he went back to a time before Flight 815 crashed, but he didn't "forget" about crashing on the island simply because it hasn't happened yet. That's not how it works.

And Richard would not always remember who Locke is. Let's say Locke goes back in time and meets Richard in 1900. Well, that's when they first meet, so for as long as Richard lives past 1900, he will know Locke. However, if Locke travels back in time to 1899, Richard will not know who he is.

I think I figured out where our miscommunication is now. I keep saying that Richard is time jumping as well and you disagree. What I am trying to say is that Richard is moving backwards in time with the island. I was calling that time jumping. He is moving back in time along with the island. When our losties time jump he is there at the actual time of the island at that point. Is that any clearer? Perhaps we were actually saying the same thing!

[ortrules]

I think I figured out where our miscommunication is now. I keep saying that Richard is time jumping as well and you disagree. What I am trying to say is that Richard is moving backwards in time with the island. I was calling that time jumping. He is moving back in time along with the island. When our losties time jump he is there at the actual time of the island at that point. Is that any clearer? Perhaps we were actually saying the same thing!

I don't believe Richard is moving backwards or forwards in time at all (at this moment). I think he, and the rest of the Others, are stagnant in the present time while everyone else is moving with the island through time.

When Locke first jumped back in time after the initial flash, Richard and the Others "disappeared". I think it's because Locke went to the past but Richard and company stayed in the present. Plus, Locke is an expert tracker, so he would have known if Richard and the Others ran away and could have followed - but he had no idea where they went.

[5starboss]

These contents in the plane are either very important or a red herring. Was it actually packing straw? Could it be an animal/bird nest? a tumbleweed? I'm not a expert in straw, persay.

[notsolost42]

I don't believe Richard is moving backwards or forwards in time at all (at this moment). I think he, and the rest of the Others, are stagnant in the present time while everyone else is moving with the island through time.

When Locke first jumped back in time after the initial flash, Richard and the Others "disappeared". I think it's because Locke went to the past but Richard and company stayed in the present. Plus, Locke is an expert tracker, so he would have known if Richard and the Others ran away and could have followed - but he had no idea where they went.

How could he be stagnant in time and then reach a point where he will no longer recognize who John Locke is? That makes no sense to me.

[ortrules]

How could he be stagnant in time and then reach a point where he will no longer recognize who John Locke is? That makes no sense to me.

Because Locke runs into a past version of Richard who hasn't met Locke.

Let's say that Locke and Richard officially meet on Jan 27, 2009 at 10am (I know that's not right, just bare with me). So on Jan 27, 2009 at 10am, Richard meets Locke when Locke presents the compass to him. Well, on Jan 27, 2009 at 9:59 am, Richard doesn't know who Locke is. They will see each other and Richard won't know Locke until Locke presents the compass at 10am. Does that make sense?

[notsolost42]

Because Locke runs into a past version of Richard who hasn't met Locke.

Let's say that Locke and Richard officially meet on Jan 27, 2009 at 10am (I know that's not right, just bare with me). So on Jan 27, 2009 at 10am, Richard meets Locke when Locke presents the compass to him. Well, on Jan 27, 2009 at 9:59 am, Richard doesn't know who Locke is. They will see each other and Richard won't know Locke until Locke presents the compass at 10am. Does that make sense?

Then Richard is not stagnant in time. He is moving with it also. He is in a time period before he meets Locke. I really think we are saying the same thing, Ort.

Timeline: Let's say Locke travels back to 2001 on the island and meets Richard.

____Richard (2001) __________________________Locke (2004)_______
They would still know each other because Richard knew Locke from birth. Richard gives Locke a compass.


Now lets say that Locke travels back to 1940 on the island and meets Richard.

_____Richard (1940)__________________________Locke (1940)________
Richard would not know who Locke is because he hasn't been born yet. Locke was born on May 30, 1956. But if Locke gives him the compass from 2001 then Richard will know that he does know him in the future.

Does this help at all?

[ortrules]

Then Richard is not stagnant in time. He is moving with it also. He is in a time period before he meets Locke. I really think we are saying the same thing, Ort.

When I say he's stagnant in time, I'm saying that he's not time traveling, that's all. So if the island goes back in time to 2001, Richard doesn't go with it, he's still in 2005. Somehow he, and the Others, are able to avoid moving with the island.

I think we agree on everything but that issue. It seems that you think 2005 Richard is moving with the island, so if the island goes to 2001, so does Richard. I don't agree with that, I think he's able to stay in 2005.

[notsolost42]

When I say he's stagnant in time, I'm saying that he's not time traveling, that's all. So if the island goes back in time to 2001, Richard doesn't go with it, he's still in 2005. Somehow he, and the Others, are able to avoid moving with the island.

I think we agree on everything but that issue. It seems that you think 2005 Richard is moving with the island, so if the island goes to 2001, so does Richard. I don't agree with that, I think he's able to stay in 2005.

I think we'll have to say we agree to disagree then Ort. Like with Claire being dead. ;)

We will come to find out sooner or later which it is. I'm betting on Richard going back in time as the island does. Otherwise, if he stayed in 2005 he would always know who John Locke is. That's why what you are saying doesn't make sense to me. We'll see my freind, we'll see! :D

[ortrules]

I think we'll have to say we agree to disagree then Ort. Like with Claire being dead. ;)

We will come to find out sooner or later which it is. I'm betting on Richard going back in time as the island does. Otherwise, if he stayed in 2005 he would always know who John Locke is. That's why what you are saying doesn't make sense to me. We'll see my freind, we'll see! :D

No, it makes total sense, that's what I'm explaining. Let's use Desmond as a prime example. Desmond didn't move with the island, it was simply that Dan ran into a past version of Desmond. At any point after that moment in time, Desmond will have a memory, even a faint memory, of meeting Dan at that point in time. However, up until that point in time, Desmond will not know Dan.

So now let's say Locke goes back in time. He will run into a past version of Richard who has no knowledge of the future or who Locke is, just like the Dan and Desmond encounter. Locke will have to give Richard that compass in order for them to meet - hence, they've met for the very first time and Richard and Locke will have a memory, however faint, of meeting each other for the first time. However, at no time before then will Richard know who Locke is.

[notsolost42]

No, it makes total sense, that's what I'm explaining. Let's use Desmond as a prime example. Desmond didn't move with the island, it was simply that Dan ran into a past version of Desmond. At any point after that moment in time, Desmond will have a memory, even a faint memory, of meeting Dan at that point in time. However, up until that point in time, Desmond will not know Dan.

So now let's say Locke goes back in time. He will run into a past version of Richard who has no knowledge of the future or who Locke is, just like the Dan and Desmond encounter. Locke will have to give Richard that compass in order for them to meet - hence, they've met for the very first time and Richard and Locke will have a memory, however faint, of meeting each other for the first time. However, at no time before then will Richard know who Locke is.

So, explain something to me please. If, as in your senerio, Locke runs into a past version of Richard then if Richard is in 2005 how could he be a past version? This is where you are confusing me. You are saying on the one hand that Richard is always in 2005 and on the other hand that there is a past version of him that would not recognize Locke. Huh???

And with Des and Dan...Des opened the Swan door to Dan because he had already met him in 1996. He did not open it for Sawyer because he did not meet him until 2004 and you cannot change the past or the future. Opening the door for Sawyer before 2004 would have changed the future.

[cafekko]

what I think that ortrules is trying to say is that when locke are going back to for example 2000 and meets richard it will be the year 2000 richard that he meets, the richard that was in year 2000, and not the richard that had lived for 5 more years and was at the island whem ben turned the wheel.

and about that other thing, i think that des could have opened the door for sawyer aswell. Des is the one who is unik or special, and it has nothing to do with the fact that they met in 1996, and des did say that someone had been banging on his door all day, and he had therefor heard that sawyer was banging.
I think that Daniel lied to sawyer in order to talk to des for himself

[ortrules]

So, explain something to me please. If, as in your senerio, Locke runs into a past version of Richard then if Richard is in 2005 how could he be a past version? This is where you are confusing me. You are saying on the one hand that Richard is always in 2005 and on the other hand that there is a past version of him that would not recognize Locke. Huh???

Lets say Locke and Richard meet for the first time in 1940. That means 2005 Locke is meeting 1940 Richard.

2005 Richard will remember that they met in 1940, but 1940 Richard will have no recollection of them meeting until they actually meet in 1940.

I never said 2005 Richard is a past version. I'm saying Locke runs into Richard in the past (1940 in this example) when he doesn't know who Locke is. 2005 Richard just continues to live his life, he doesn't matter right now.

[cafekko]

Lets say Locke and Richard meet for the first time in 1940. That means 2005 Locke is meeting 1940 Richard.

2005 Richard will remember that they met in 1940, but 1940 Richard will have no recollection of them meeting until they actually meet in 1940.

I never said 2005 Richard is a past version. I'm saying Locke runs into Richard in the past (1940 in this example) when he doesn't know who Locke is. 2005 Richard just continues to live his life, he doesn't matter right now.

that was what i tried to explain:P but im really bad at putting words to my thoughts

[notsolost42]

Lets say Locke and Richard meet for the first time in 1940. That means 2005 Locke is meeting 1940 Richard.

2005 Richard will remember that they met in 1940, but 1940 Richard will have no recollection of them meeting until they actually meet in 1940.

I never said 2005 Richard is a past version. I'm saying Locke runs into Richard in the past (1940 in this example) when he doesn't know who Locke is. 2005 Richard just continues to live his life, he doesn't matter right now.

Ort, we are saying the same thing then! I just read it that you were saying that Richard is always the 2005 version no matter when in time they go back to. So, that's not what you were saying then. Okay.

[Archangel-Player]

Here`s a thought. Yes Richard meet Locke at young age. Richard has been tracking him since the day he was born. Richard is a mystery there are so many ways he can fit into the time line being that he seems ageless or a man out of time. For Richard not to know Locke it would have to be a yr before Locke`s birth. The compass is something special to Richard. That any verson of him would instently Know that Locke is somone special in some verson of Richard`s life.

[notsolost42]

Here`s a thought. Yes Richard meet Locke at young age. Richard has been tracking him since the day he was born. Richard is a mystery there are so many ways he can fit into the time line being that he seems ageless or a man out of time. For Richard not to know Locke it would have to be a yr before Locke`s birth. The compass is something special to Richard. That any verson of him would instently Know that Locke is somone special in some verson of Richard`s life.

Thank you! Yes, exactly what I am trying to say. Richard would know that he gave the compass to someone on purpose. It is Locke's or Richard's constant perhaps! Either way, yes, you are saying very eloquently what I have been trying to say. Thank you.

[Guardllama]

Yes, they are going from present to distant past, back forward a bit, back to past not quite as far back as the first time, etc. That's exactly what happened to Des when he bounced back and forth after the Swan imploded. Everyone should go back and rewatch that episode. I have always described it as the slingshot effect for some reason. I wrote in the past (no pun intended) that it was like bouncing a ball inbetween two walls and letting it keep bouncing. The inertia will keep it bouncing but it is slowing down as it goes. As the exotic matter cools off again they are slowing down. That's what happens, trust me on this science. The exotic matter gets hot when the wheel is turned because it is exposed. As it cools again and goes back to normal the time jumps slow and then come to a stop...but who knows where or when!
maybe this is why they only have 70 hours to get back ,after this the pendulum stops and what ever time its on the island is stuck at (and so the O6 might not be born or it might be too far into their future to wait for the islands reappearance).

in other words, they only have 70 hours of island pendulum swing to wait for it to swing to their present (2007) for them to get on before it stops swinging who knows where.

Mrs Hawking works this out with her model in ep 2

[heatwave]

Why would you say Richard is moving with the island? Does that mean the Ethan is also moving with the island? What about Desmond? Is he also moving with the island?

Desmond seems to not be moving with the island since he is in his present time going to Oxford. Ethan is dead, so he is not moving with the island in time. 2005 Richard is in 2005. If/when Locke meets Richard in 1940 something, it will be 1940 version of Richard he is meeting.

This means Richard is not moving with the island.

[00sco200]

how does Richard know the island is going to jump back?? surely if it jumped forward he would remember Locke,

[Archangel-Player]

Richard in the present knew Location and how Locked would meet Richard when they don`t know one another because A future verson of Locked told present time Richard that he was shot and bleeding on this day and location.