Locke and Ethan

[lostie]

Hi guys this is my first time posting on here. Just started reading these forums last week and this seems like a great site. I am not sure why but for some reason it is bothering me that Locke and Ethan met in the past (when ethan shoots locke in the leg). Wouldn't Ethan have known who Locke was when he infiltrated their camp? I haven't gone back to watch those episodes but from what i can remember they had no connection of any sort before. Like I said I dont know why this question bothers me more than anything else but maybe someone has a good explanation?:confused:

[Brother Desmond]

Hi guys this is my first time posting on here. Just started reading these forums last week and this seems like a great site. I am not sure why but for some reason it is bothering me that Locke and Ethan met in the past (when ethan shoots locke in the leg). Wouldn't Ethan have known who Locke was when he infiltrated their camp? I haven't gone back to watch those episodes but from what i can remember they had no connection of any sort before. Like I said I dont know why this question bothers me more than anything else but maybe someone has a good explanation?:confused:

Even if Ethan did recognize Locke from the past he wouldn't have been able to acknowledge it. He was undercover pretending he was on 815. To show that he recognized Locke from before the flight would reveal he was never on the plane.

[Unbridled Pageantry]

When Ethan infiltrated the camp he spent alot of time with Locke. Him and Locke were out hunting together all the time. I've been thinking the same thing too though, and think I might have an idea that could explain it.

We know that Ben sent Goodwin to the tail section because he had a problem with him and wanted him out of the way. What if since Ethan first found John at the drug plane he's been questioning Ben on how that could have happened. Asking him who that was and why he said he was the new leader. Then Ben sent Ethan and Goodwin because they were two people that he wanted out of the way.

[Missie]

That confused me too but I think the answer lies in the Desmond-Daniel encounter.

Daniel knocks on the hatch door and talks to Desmond months before they actually meet. When Desmond meets Daniel for the first time in season four he does not recognize him because Daniel has not yet gone to the past, therefore the encounter has not happened yet. Three years after Desond escapes from the island he wakes up from a new memory, the memory of meeting Daniel at the hatch door.

So, when Ethan first meets Locke he does not recognize him because Locke had not yet traveled into the past. If Ethan was still alive he would of had the memory after the encounter actually happened.

So I know this isnt the best way to explain this but it makes sense to me.

[notsolost42]

That confused me too but I think the answer lies in the Desmond-Daniel encounter.

Daniel knocks on the hatch door and talks to Desmond months before they actually meet. When Desmond meets Daniel for the first time in season four he does not recognize him because Daniel has not yet gone to the past, therefore the encounter has not happened yet. Three years after Desond escapes from the island he wakes up from a new memory, the memory of meeting Daniel at the hatch door.

So, when Ethan first meets Locke he does not recognize him because Locke had not yet traveled into the past. If Ethan was still alive he would of had the memory after the encounter actually happened.

So I know this isnt the best way to explain this but it makes sense to me.


Missie...
Desmond met Daniel for the first time at Oxford in 1994 or 1996. That was when Dan told him to find him and give him the numbers for his machine and to mention Eloise. That was happening when Des was time jumping in the present on the island in 2004. So, Des did meet Daniel first. That's why he opened the door of the Swan when Dan knocked. They already knew each other. That's why he wouldn't open it for Sawyer, because they would not meet until 2004. We can only narrow the date of Dan's encounter at the Swan between these dates for now....2001 and 2004 based on Des having been on the island for three years when our losties got there. When Desmond woke up with his memory it was in 2007 or three years after they were rescued. He remembered what happened sometime between 2001 and 2004.
When Locke and Ethan met in the time jump it was obviously before Ethan was killed by Charlie and before the losties crashed on the island. So again, it was before 2004. That's why Ethan did not know who Locke was. He never met him before.
Get it?

[Missie]

Missie...
Desmond met Daniel for the first time at Oxford in 1994 or 1996. That was when Dan told him to find him and give him the numbers for his machine and to mention Eloise. That was happening when Des was time jumping in the present on the island in 2004. So, Des did meet Daniel first. That's why he opened the door of the Swan when Dan knocked. They already knew each other. That's why he wouldn't open it for Sawyer, because they would not meet until 2004. We can only narrow the date of Dan's encounter at the Swan between these dates for now....2001 and 2004 based on Des having been on the island for three years when our losties got there. When Desmond woke up with his memory it was in 2007 or three years after they were rescued. He remembered what happened sometime between 2001 and 2004.
When Locke and Ethan met in the time jump it was obviously before Ethan was killed by Charlie and before the losties crashed on the island. So again, it was before 2004. That's why Ethan did not know who Locke was. He never met him before.
Get it?


I dont think you understand what I'm saying at all.

When Daniel first helped Desmond with his mind jumping abilities he did not know who he was. It wasnt until after Desmond mind jumped and found Daniel at Oxford in the past that Daniel remember meeting Desmond, thats when he started thumbing through his book and found "Desmond Hume will be my constant." He didnt have the memory until after the encounter happened. Just like Desmond didnt remember seeing Daniel at the hatch door until after the encounter happened.

[notsolost42]

I dont think you understand what I'm saying at all.

When Daniel first helped Desmond with his mind jumping abilities he did not know who he was. It wasnt until after Desmond mind jumped and found Daniel at Oxford in the past that Daniel remember meeting Desmond, thats when he started thumbing through his book and found "Desmond Hume will be my constant." He didnt have the memory until after the encounter happened. Just like Desmond didnt remember seeing Daniel at the hatch door until after the encounter happened.

Missie, I think that TPTB have established that time jumping causes memory lapses. Daniel, of all people, has a really bad memory because he has experimented for so long with spacetime. All of the events happen in cronological order. If Dan sent Des back to Oxford in 1996 then it happened in 1996. It didn't wait until 2004 to happen. That note in Dan's journal didn't just suddenly appear after he told Des to find him. It was there since they met at Oxford.
Everyone seems to be confused, which is not unexpected! LOL!!! It is kind of nuts! But, remember how in the first few seasons there were flashforwards and flashbacks? That was kind of a "practice run" so that we could learn how they are putting events in order. TPTB are leaving us little clues to tell us when we are. Please check out the timeline I posted.

[heatwave]

It's hard to explain using Daniel because his memory is poor to begin with. I can't remember if he had much contact with Des from the time he landed on the island to the time Des was talking to him on the phone from the freighter.

Wouldn't Dan recognize Des during that time? How could you forget your constant?

I do think Ethan probably knew Locke. Locke was on the list that they were putting together based on what Ben told Locke when they were holding Ben prisinor in the hatch. They all knew he was there. Ben didn't know how special Locke would be until he knew Locke could hear Jacob. That's when he decided to kill Locke since now his leadership could be challenged.

[notsolost42]

It's hard to explain using Daniel because his memory is poor to begin with. I can't remember if he had much contact with Des from the time he landed on the island to the time Des was talking to him on the phone from the freighter.

Wouldn't Dan recognize Des during that time? How could you forget your constant?

I do think Ethan probably knew Locke. Locke was on the list that they were putting together based on what Ben told Locke when they were holding Ben prisinor in the hatch. They all knew he was there. Ben didn't know how special Locke would be until he knew Locke could hear Jacob. That's when he decided to kill Locke since now his leadership could be challenged.

I don't believe that Dan and Des did have much contact on the island. Des began having his timejumps again in the helicopter and that's when Dan figured out what was going on. The way things are going everyone is going to forget everyone else pretty soon!!! LOL!!!
I don't think that Locke was on Jacob's list or they would have taken him. Ben never decided to kill Locke either. Where are you getting this stuff from?

[heatwave]

Well, Ben did shoot Locke and leave him for dead after their visit to Jacob. He was left in the dead DI ditch. I think Ben thought he would just die there.

Ben told Locke in the hatch that they knew he was there. He mentioned that they never meant to hurt anyone from the tail section, just take those who were special.

[LOST815]

That confused me too but I think the answer lies in the Desmond-Daniel encounter.

Daniel knocks on the hatch door and talks to Desmond months before they actually meet. When Desmond meets Daniel for the first time in season four he does not recognize him because Daniel has not yet gone to the past, therefore the encounter has not happened yet. Three years after Desond escapes from the island he wakes up from a new memory, the memory of meeting Daniel at the hatch door.

So, when Ethan first meets Locke he does not recognize him because Locke had not yet traveled into the past. If Ethan was still alive he would of had the memory after the encounter actually happened.

So I know this isnt the best way to explain this but it makes sense to me.

The only problem I have with your thought is that Daniel said to Sawyer....if it hasn't happened....then it will not happen. Remember when Sawyer was banging on the hatch door. I think the question we need answered is "are they creating new pasts or is this what happened all along?" I think Desmond is "special" and may be able to manipulate things a little, but I feel that other people cannot. I really hope that the writers do not take this in the direction of "you can change the past or create new past events". If so then the story will get kinda muddy for me because we have been told that you cannot create new streets or change things that have happened. I think that the future has not yet been written (unlike the past) and can be manipulated, however, the universe will still course correct.

[lostie]

I am not sure if we can compare Locke and Ethan to Des and Daniel because according to Daniel "the rules dont apply to desmond" What still bothers me about this is after shooting Locke Ethan would have most likely returned to tell the others that he just shot someone named John Locke and before he disappeared he told him ben put him (Locke) in charge. So when the others found out that Locke was on the list of people on the flight that had crashed on the island you think they would have made a bigger deal about Locke and known who he was? They would have also had a heads up that Ben would someday assume leadership of the island as well. Very confusing stuff haha

[persistentlylost]

Missie...
So, Des did meet Daniel first. That's why he opened the door of the Swan when Dan knocked. They already knew each other. That's why he wouldn't open it for Sawyer, because they would not meet until 2004.


Why didn't Desmond recognize Daniel at the hatch door? Are we chalking that up to memory lapse...or did Desmond's knowledge of meeting Daniel not occur until Des spoke to Penny and got reset in time? So, although Des and Dan met in 1996, Desmond did not have knowledge of that meeting until Christmas 2004.

Clearly John and Ethan had not met before Ethan shot John. Do the rules not apply to John and Ethan either?

[persistentlylost]

I am not sure if we can compare Locke and Ethan to Des and Daniel because according to Daniel "the rules dont apply to desmond" What still bothers me about this is after shooting Locke Ethan would have most likely returned to tell the others that he just shot someone named John Locke and before he disappeared he told him ben put him (Locke) in charge. So when the others found out that Locke was on the list of people on the flight that had crashed on the island you think they would have made a bigger deal about Locke and known who he was? They would have also had a heads up that Ben would someday assume leadership of the island as well. Very confusing stuff haha

They did make a big deal of John. I always thought it was because he could walk again. Maybe it was because Ethan met him in the past and told everyone about it.

[Unbridled Pageantry]

Today 10:34 PM
lostie
I am not sure if we can compare Locke and Ethan to Des and Daniel because according to Daniel "the rules dont apply to desmond" What still bothers me about this is after shooting Locke Ethan would have most likely returned to tell the others that he just shot someone named John Locke and before he disappeared he told him ben put him (Locke) in charge. So when the others found out that Locke was on the list of people on the flight that had crashed on the island you think they would have made a bigger deal about Locke and known who he was? They would have also had a heads up that Ben would someday assume leadership of the island as well. Very confusing stuff haha

I think that they were excited. Richard told Locke that when the others found out about a man that was paralyzed that could now walk they got excited. He didn't say "They got excited and Ethan has been talking about you.", because that would affect how John reacted.

I also have a thought that Ben sent Ethan out to die because maybe he was asking too many questions about you this Locke guy that disapeared in the jungle was. We know that he sent Goodwin as revenge, so why not Ethan too.

[Jeremy]

I don't think Ethan would have told anyone about Locke. He went about kidnapping Claire without consulting Ben, as far as I can recall, and really, he's just crazy.

As for Locke being famous among the Others, I think it's a bit more than just being able to walk after coming to the island. That's just what they tell him. Perhaps the Locke we have now, assuming he eventually does make it to whenever Richard wouldn't recognise him, tells him about Dharma and the plane crash and everything, and so they may assume he's some sort of aprophet and that is why Locke is special.

[persistentlylost]

I think that they were excited. Richard told Locke that when the others found out about a man that was paralyzed that could now walk they got excited. He didn't say "They got excited and Ethan has been talking about you.", because that would affect how John reacted.

I also have a thought that Ben sent Ethan out to die because maybe he was asking too many questions about you this Locke guy that disapeared in the jungle was. We know that he sent Goodwin as revenge, so why not Ethan too.

I always wondered why Ben sent Ethan. For some reason, I remember Ethan trying to fix something at Juliet's without success. Until now I figured Ben was just punishing Ethan for not treating his woman right.

[Foro777]

My theory: None of this is happening, the island is "skipping" in time and the losties are just along for the ride. In reality, Ethan never saw Locke. The only reason he did is because the island is outta whack. This is why Daniel is so desperate to fix the skipping, because if something were to bend the rules and change an event, the results could be catastrophic. The only reason Desmond remembers talking with Faraday is because the rules don't apply to him. When the O6 get back, the skipping will stop but they will have to figure out a way to "reset" the island. This is why Faraday was in the Orchid station, he's looking for a way to turn back the clock, to "reset" the "time loop" to a time before the island dislodged itself in time....
And if the end of the show ( like a lot of ppl theorize) is Jack waking up after the crash I will kill something.

[notsolost42]

Why didn't Desmond recognize Daniel at the hatch door? Are we chalking that up to memory lapse...or did Desmond's knowledge of meeting Daniel not occur until Des spoke to Penny and got reset in time? So, although Des and Dan met in 1996, Desmond did not have knowledge of that meeting until Christmas 2004.

Clearly John and Ethan had not met before Ethan shot John. Do the rules not apply to John and Ethan either?

Desmond met Daniel in 1996. Period. You cannot change the past and you cannot change the future. I am definitely saying that Des didn't recognize Dan at the door because of his memory. Des did not really know Dan very well either. They met briefly at Oxford. Do you remember someone you met for a very short time 5 years ago? Des was in the hatch for a few years at that point probably as well.

[Missie]

Missie, I think that TPTB have established that time jumping causes memory lapses. Daniel, of all people, has a really bad memory because he has experimented for so long with spacetime. All of the events happen in cronological order. If Dan sent Des back to Oxford in 1996 then it happened in 1996. It didn't wait until 2004 to happen. That note in Dan's journal didn't just suddenly appear after he told Des to find him. It was there since they met at Oxford.
Everyone seems to be confused, which is not unexpected! LOL!!! It is kind of nuts! But, remember how in the first few seasons there were flashforwards and flashbacks? That was kind of a "practice run" so that we could learn how they are putting events in order. TPTB are leaving us little clues to tell us when we are. Please check out the timeline I posted.

I am going to say this the nicest way I can. I am not confused. I have a theory that makes perfect sense to me. I know you diagree with me. And thats fine. But dont say Im confused just because I dont agree with you.

Now back to my theory,
I understand that Dan and Des's first encounter happened in 1996. However, it didnt really happen until Des mind jumped back to 1996. I disagree with you when you say that the note in Dan's journal didnt just appear. I think it did. I also disagree with you when you say Dan has a bad memory. The guy has remembered everything he has ever studied about time travel.

[ortrules]

Desmond met Daniel in 1996. Period. You cannot change the past and you cannot change the future. I am definitely saying that Des didn't recognize Dan at the door because of his memory. Des did not really know Dan very well either. They met briefly at Oxford. Do you remember someone you met for a very short time 5 years ago? Des was in the hatch for a few years at that point probably as well.

I agree with you here. I really do. But this is also where I think it begins to get strange. They did meet for only a brief few minutes, and not many people remember people they meet for a very short time. However, Dan wasn't just anybody - he helped Desmond find his constant so that he could right himself and stop his consciousness from jumping.

I would think that anyone would remember someone who saved their life, no matter how long ago or how short their visit was. So you would think that Desmond would remember Dan.

So a piece of me wants to say that Desmond's consciousness traveling through time works different than the current, physical time travel everyone else is experiencing.

[Moxy]

Desmond does question Daniel "Do I know you?" when Desmond knocks on the door....

DESMOND: Do I know you?
FARADAY: Yeah... in a way. But listen, that's not important. What is important, Desmond, is what I'm about to say to you.

Admittingly, Daniel does call Desmond by his name just prior to these lines, so Desmond could be asking because of that - but Desmond also asked Jack in a similar way in SE02 EP03 when they are at the computer..

JACK: Don't tell me what to do! [to Desmond] Or what? What's going to happen?
DESMOND: Do I know you?


Desmond and Jack have already had a conversation on Jack's entrance to the Swan. Both Kate and Locke are in the Swan, and Desmond doesn't ask them at any point if he knows them.

i think it's possible Desmond may have some vague sub-conscious recognisation of Daniel

[Moxy]

i've reposted this answer in Desmond - Faraday thread.

[Linus]

Desmond does question Daniel "Do I know you?" when Desmond knocks on the door....

DESMOND: Do I know you?
FARADAY: Yeah... in a way. But listen, that's not important. What is important, Desmond, is what I'm about to say to you.

Admittingly, Daniel does call Desmond by his name just prior to these lines, so Desmond could be asking because of that - but Desmond also asked Jack in a similar way in SE02 EP03 when they are at the computer..

JACK: Don't tell me what to do! [to Desmond] Or what? What's going to happen?
DESMOND: Do I know you?


Desmond and Jack have already had a conversation on Jack's entrance to the Swan. Both Kate and Locke are in the Swan, and Desmond doesn't ask them at any point if he knows them.

i think it's possible Desmond may have some vague sub-conscious recognisation of Daniel

I think you make a good point, although the only thing missing from the meeting between Desmond and Faraday that we saw in the one between Desmond and Jack was the look of recognition in his eyes. We could see that clearly in that meeting with Jack, but we couldn't see that well through the mask in the meeting with Faraday. Still could be on to something with that though, just harder to see it.

[notsolost42]

I agree with you here. I really do. But this is also where I think it begins to get strange. They did meet for only a brief few minutes, and not many people remember people they meet for a very short time. However, Dan wasn't just anybody - he helped Desmond find his constant so that he could right himself and stop his consciousness from jumping.

I would think that anyone would remember someone who saved their life, no matter how long ago or how short their visit was. So you would think that Desmond would remember Dan.

So a piece of me wants to say that Desmond's consciousness traveling through time works different than the current, physical time travel everyone else is experiencing.

I think we are going to slowly find out that many of the "dreams" that the island gave to people, such as Locke dreaming about the Beechcraft, bloody Boone and his mother Emily, are just them remembering the past like Desmond does when he awakens suddenly on the yacht with Pen in 2007.
Locke had a dream about the Beechcraft crashing on the island and Boone being all bloodied and saying "Thesa falls up the stairs" etc. Well, it was a memory. We know when he saw the Beechcraft crash. Well, kind of. And Boone did not tell Locke the story about his nanny until several minutes after Locke told him about the dream. Locke had to have lived that moment before and had a dream remembering it. See where I'm going...

As far as Des, he time jumped when the Swan imploded both backwards and forwards. We saw him with Penny in his apartment and meeting Mrs. Hawking. Then later in real island time he tells Hurley about the speech that Locke makes. This happens just a short time after he tells Hurley so he must have lived that moment already and just remembered it.

Listen, it's going to get real confusing for everyone. I am not saying I am the only one who will understand everything perfectly. Far from it. But my past ideas and theories have not been too bad. Well, some of them! LOL! So, I think it will keep going into the season. Looks like Jughead is going to be real confusing with lots of time travel, eh? Just remember who said that the Jughead episode was named after the Archie Comic featuring Jughead with his time traveling beanie and would be a real doozie!

[Lost in Texas]

My theory: None of this is happening, the island is "skipping" in time and the losties are just along for the ride. In reality, Ethan never saw Locke. The only reason he did is because the island is outta whack. This is why Daniel is so desperate to fix the skipping, because if something were to bend the rules and change an event, the results could be catastrophic. The only reason Desmond remembers talking with Faraday is because the rules don't apply to him. When the O6 get back, the skipping will stop but they will have to figure out a way to "reset" the island. This is why Faraday was in the Orchid station, he's looking for a way to turn back the clock, to "reset" the "time loop" to a time before the island dislodged itself in time....
And if the end of the show ( like a lot of ppl theorize) is Jack waking up after the crash I will kill something.
What if the end of the show turns out to be some one being shaken to be waken up and it turns out to be Locke in a wheelchair about to get on the Oceanic Flight? I hope not.