Daniel Faraday and the Time Dilation experiment

[bferrari]

I assume you all saw Daniel Faraday and the Time Dilation experiment?? Obviously the island is some type of time portal or time is dialated, based on the two clock experiment Daniel was doing with that "payload".

Any theories?

[skatertsol]

Which proves a nice explanation if and when walt reappears for him being "taller" and looking older....

[hyperRevue]

Which proves a nice explanation if and when walt reappears for him being "taller" and looking older....

Sort of. Except that it's only a 30 min difference.

[missjulie]

I started a new thread at the same time this was started... so hopefuly someone catches this post and helps me out!

I'm not a mathemetician, so I hope someone else can figure out a link here.

It took the homing rocket 31 minutes to reach Dan's little beacon. 31 minutes AFTER the chick on the boat said it got there.

So... is there a relation to 108 minutes from the hatch, the amount of days between the hatch blowing and todays episode (the hatch blew on day 67 and we're on 95 now so thats 28 days), and the 31 minutes??

I sooo want there to be a connection.

BTW Lostpedia.com has todays episode listed as day number N/A. Last weeks was 94... why N/A today? Maybe just not posted yet.

[Pauldawisp]

Thats why Bernard's Wife, The old black woman with cancer didn't die on the island yet. she had a limited amount of time to live.

[skatertsol]

Sort of. Except that it's only a 30 min difference.
Thirty minutes different from wherever the ship is (how many KM's away?) But who knows it could still be in the "circle of craziness" that surrounds this island. I think it's more than 30 minutes difference out in the rest of the world

[hyperRevue]

Thirty minutes different from wherever the ship is (how many KM's away?) But who knows it could still be in the "circle of craziness" that surrounds this island. I think it's more than 30 minutes difference out in the rest of the world


I dunno. The missile landed 30 mins after the woman on the ship said it should. Seems pretty cut and dry.

And the ship is, what, 80 km away?

[dv310p3r]

It could also explain somehow why those people (the original Others) don't seem to age.

BTW, where are they (the original Others)?

[missjulie]

But who knows it could still be in the "circle of craziness" that surrounds this island.

I LOLed at that. Really. :D

[hyperRevue]

It could also explain somehow why those people (the original Others) don't seem to age.

BTW, where are they (the original Others)?

But it's only 30 mins.
A 30 minute difference doesn't account Alpert not aging.

And the other others are at the temple.

[TuesdaySmith]

Thats why Bernard's Wife, The old black woman with cancer didn't die on the island yet. she had a limited amount of time to live.

I think Rose's cancer going away is from a different property of the island.. She said she "felt" it was gone right after they crashed.. the same way Locke could move his legs right after they crashed.

[skatertsol]

I dunno. The missile landed 30 mins after the woman on the ship said it should. Seems pretty cut and dry.

And the ship is, what, 80 km away?
I totally don't know why I'm arguing this so hardcore but I think it's more than 30 minutes back in reality. maybe not a HUGE amt of time but some time. I think there were even references in the oceanic press releases to how long it had been, and what difference does 30 minutes make? Why would they even put 30 minutes in the mix? Not worth it. There's something more there

[LOSTLOST]

yea but in the real world how long has it been?? im not sure, hasent it been a few years, cuz it crashed in 2004 (if there goin by our timeline which i dnt think they are but it would be 2008 or at least 2007) but jack says its only been 100 days...... idk im kinda confused right now after 2nites episode. lol

[hyperRevue]

Speaking of Alpert.

From Lostpedia:

"On the day that Flight 815 crashed, Richard apparently was in Miami, where he was filming Juliet's sister and nephew in a public park. This is illustrated by Richard filming a Miami Journal newspaper that had the current date on the banner. Although Richard was not seen or heard over the video broadcast, Ben (wearing headphones) apparently talked to him, calling him by name. Ben then told Richard to get back to the Island, because they will be having some visitors soon (refering to the Flight 815 Survivors)"

I never picked up on Ben saying that about the "visitors." Holy ****.

[skatertsol]

I LOLed at that. Really. :D
I'm sure the writers have or will come up with a more "technical" term, but if they used mine I'd be honored lol

[hyperRevue]

yea but in the real world how long has it been?? im not sure, hasent it been a few years, cuz it crashed in 2004 (if there goin by our timeline which i dnt think they are but it would be 2008 or at least 2007) but jack says its only been 100 days...... idk im kinda confused right now after 2nites episode. lol

LOST time is not the same as real time. It's only been 100 days on the Island. It's still 2004 there (maybe just turned 2005).

Do you think it took 6 months for the helicopter to come after they radioed the freighter?

[TuesdaySmith]

I totally don't know why I'm arguing this so hardcore but I think it's more than 30 minutes back in reality. maybe not a HUGE amt of time but some time. I think there were even references in the oceanic press releases to how long it had been, and what difference does 30 minutes make? Why would they even put 30 minutes in the mix? Not worth it. There's something more there

30 minutes for the whole island timeline doesn't mean much, but the 30 minutes for this instance is significant.

Like if you dropped an ice cube into a swimming pool, nothing measureable would happen, but if you drop it into a glass, you could measure the temperature change and use that change to figure out some kind of rate of thermal equilibrium.

Daniel could use smaller scale experiments to prove something on a large scale.

[skatertsol]

30 minutes for the whole island timeline doesn't mean much, but the 30 minutes for this instance is significant.

Like if you dropped an ice cube into a swimming pool, nothing measureable would happen, but if you drop it into a glass, you could measure the temperature change and use that change to figure out some kind of rate of thermal equilibrium.

Daniel could use smaller scale experiments to prove something on a large scale.
Ya see I didn't like science maybe that's why I didn't take that into consideration. Good call. But I'm still standing my ground lol somethings up with the time. I think that may have been another piece to Jack telling Hurley "Not to tell anyone" .... not just the people they left on the island but the secrets of the island like the time thing. And I could be totally wrong and you guys can say "I told you so!" :)

[WhalerDO]

ok so in addition to the time (the apparent 30 min lapse). i think it was also curious that Daniel told Frank that no matter what he stick to the coordinates that they had....Possibly given by Mike and/or Walt Remember when they got to leave the Island Ben told them if they follow those coordinates they would be saved. Could it be that if you veer off that path so does the time difference? Guess this would go back to the time travel theory, but could also support an older Walt's return to the Island.

[skatertsol]

Yeah there was some definite concern there. Also notice the three known survivors up until tonite are tied together in flashforwards. Sayid, who is one of the 6, gets on the Helicopter, the only one we've seen actually LEAVE the island yet, isn't tied in with them in his flashforwards. Who he is seen with, is the only other man we know now has been on the island. So I'm still curious how they rest of them get off, and if Des isn't one of the 6 what happens to him.

[Dzbabykel]

ok so in addition to the time (the apparent 30 min lapse). i think it was also curious that Daniel told Frank that no matter what he stick to the coordinates that they had....Possibly given by Mike and/or Walt Remember when they got to leave the Island Ben told them if they follow those coordinates they would be saved. Could it be that if you veer off that path so does the time difference? Guess this would go back to the time travel theory, but could also support an older Walt's return to the Island.

Good point, Ben DID say that to Walt and Michael about staying on course.

[csharp1990]

hopefully this will help a little bit on the time dilation experiment faraday did.

Formerly, from experiments at slow speeds, time was believed to be a constant, which progressed at a fixed rate; however, later high-speed experiments revealed that time slowed down at higher speeds (with such slowing called "time dilation"). Many experiments have confirmed the slowing from time dilation, such as atomic clocks onboard a Space Shuttle running slower than synchronized Earth-bound clocks. Since time varies, it is treated as a variable within the spacetime coordinate grid, and time is no longer assumed to be a constant, independent of the location in space.

A gravitational field is a model used within physics to explain how gravity exists in the universe. In its original concept, gravity was a force between point masses. In general relativity, clocks at lower potentials in a gravitational field — such as in proximity to a planet — are found to be running slower. the higher the local distortion of spacetime due to gravity, the slower time passes.

SO the island may be at lower potentials in a gravitational field, than the earth. Possibly because of the electromagnetic field. So therefore time on the island goes slower than time anywhere else, thus making the island impossible to pinpoint and VERY hard to get in and out of. When Miles talks on the radio he asks for minkowski, obviously minkowski is someone who is in charge. Hermann Minkowski was a scientist who helped develop spacetime and the connection between the two and it's importance in general relativity.

Try to understand it, I hardly can... :)

[james220]

I think the key scientific finding of the experiment was expressed by Daniel, "This is not good."

[skatertsol]

ok that makes sense....And now my head hurts a little bit. Being more a fan of literature in school than science-i dig the additional reference in nomenclature to the scientist so I'm content with this whole time travel thing now!

[csharp1990]

Yes the identical names defiantly proves there is something to do with a spacetime continuum. LOST has a thing for alluding to names.

[Dzbabykel]

Wow thats pretty exciting :) I love where Lost is going with this!

[WhalerDO]

So do i...i have to admit i was hesitant during their first season...but got hooked during season 2.

[WhalerDO]

csharp1990 pointed out "SO the island may be at lower potentials in a gravitational field, than the earth. Possibly because of the electromagnetic field. So therefore time on the island goes slower than time anywhere else, thus making the island impossible to pinpoint and VERY hard to get in and out of. "

My question goes in line with the electromagnetic field and slowing down of time. Could the Dharma program have know this and is why the "Button" had to be pushed. Is it that the button needed to be pushed because it helped to keep the Island's electromagnetic field in check? Which is why when Desmoid was too late to mainly reset the button with his key he got blasted into some crazy time warped past? and came back with some psychic abilities (seeing flashes of the future)? Also a possible reason why Ben had those two chicks jamming the Islands signals in the Looking Glass so that the Dharma people would have more difficulty finding them without a signal to pinpoint?

ahhh LOST how you tease us all with your episodes...but nevertheless we find ourselves lost in theories...haha

[dv310p3r]

I really like that explanation. Sounds very well put together. (About Desmond and why he can see into the future, etc..., When you think about it, he can't see too far into the future.

[Sgltrkmind]

When Miles talks on the radio he asks for minkowski, obviously minkowski is someone who is in charge.

Curious: Lapidus tells Daniel that if Minkowski comes on the phone, hang up.

[green14]

I totally don't know why I'm arguing this so hardcore but I think it's more than 30 minutes back in reality. maybe not a HUGE amt of time but some time. I think there were even references in the oceanic press releases to how long it had been, and what difference does 30 minutes make? Why would they even put 30 minutes in the mix? Not worth it. There's something more there
hey skatertsol, i totally agree with you. i think it is only 30 min. because the freighter is closer than the outside world. i think that the further away from the island you are, the greater the time lapse

[snow24]

I don't think its thirty minutes either. There needed to be a date on the damn clock!

It could be a few hours, days, or even years, and 30 minutes off the time outside the island.

[missjulie]

Forgive me for not having a solid reference for this... but I CANNOT remember where I saw it. Probably on the history channel.

So the experiment is thus: They put a clock on a spaceship and a clock on the ground at NASA, set simultaneously and are exactly the same. After the launch and a few hours (maybe days) they ask the people on the ship what the clock says. Its 15 minutes slower than the clock on Earth. They said gravity has an effect on time and since there's no gravity in space time acts differently.

Please if someone has real facts to back that up post them (and if I'm totally off my rocker... sorry!)

So... if this experiment is true and real, and time is effected by gravity, and time on or around the island is different, than wouldn't it be right to say the gravitational/electromagnetic properties of the island are effecting time?

Just a theory!

[missjulie]

I don't think its thirty minutes either. There needed to be a date on the damn clock!

It could be a few hours, days, or even years, and 30 minutes off the time outside the island.

I agree... I posted the numbers earlier... it was 31 minutes, they've been on the island for 94 days and the hatch has been gone for 28 days (and 108 minutes is significant for some reason.) I'm not a math person, so I was hoping someone would find a link between the 31 minutes and all those other numbers...

108 minutes multiplied by X equals Y days and 31 minutes?? Find X and Y!

[Cloudy]

Was the rocket 31 minutes late, or day/week late and 31 minutes?

[Dzbabykel]

Was the rocket 31 minutes late, or day/week late and 31 minutes?

Only 31 minutes....but what confuses me to no end is how their radio signals were on the same time frame....I mean Regina talked him through it while sending over the rocket? :confused:

[hondo987]

Hey guys....I too am kinda confused but obviously were talking about some sort of time displacement here.....With the magnetism the Island emits, (which causes the island to seem invisible) 2 minutes on the island equaled 31 minutes on the freighter(origin) how much time would it be for 100 days?

[boyo]

there's no time travel, i'm pretty sure I'm not wasting my time watching some sci fi series :)

for me there are two options:
- as you have mentioned, reduced gravity speeds up time, while the speed of space shuttles slows it down as well, as a result clock on space shuttles go out of sync with those on earth. have in mind it's not "time" that changes , it's what the clocks show, or in other words the electronics of the clock start working in different speed because of electromagnetism. time is in fact always the same - it's the speed of light which never changes

- not only the clock on the payload shows different time, but the payload does not arrive on time, meaning it might have just travelled a much bigger distance for some reason. It does arrive on the exact coordinate though...

[polarsawyer]

Forgive me for not having a solid reference for this... but I CANNOT remember where I saw it. Probably on the history channel.

So the experiment is thus: They put a clock on a spaceship and a clock on the ground at NASA, set simultaneously and are exactly the same. After the launch and a few hours (maybe days) they ask the people on the ship what the clock says. Its 15 minutes slower than the clock on Earth. They said gravity has an effect on time and since there's no gravity in space time acts differently.

Please if someone has real facts to back that up post them (and if I'm totally off my rocker... sorry!)

So... if this experiment is true and real, and time is effected by gravity, and time on or around the island is different, than wouldn't it be right to say the gravitational/electromagnetic properties of the island are effecting time?

Just a theory!


The experiment i thought was that a space program (NASA maybe, not 100% sure) sent a rocket the opposite direction of earths orbit, to try an hypothetically go back in time. When they got the time from the rocket, it was only a few nanoseconds behind what was said on earth. I big discovery, nonetheless.

[missjulie]

there's no time travel, i'm pretty sure I'm not wasting my time watching some sci fi series :)

for me there are two options:
- as you have mentioned, reduced gravity speeds up time, while the speed of space shuttles slows it down as well, as a result clock on space shuttles go out of sync with those on earth. have in mind it's not "time" that changes , it's what the clocks show, or in other words the electronics of the clock start working in different speed because of electromagnetism. time is in fact always the same - it's the speed of light which never changes

- not only the clock on the payload shows different time, but the payload does not arrive on time, meaning it might have just travelled a much bigger distance for some reason. It does arrive on the exact coordinate though...

That makes a lot of sense (thanks for making my spaceship time thing make more sense too!)

With what you mention I now think its more to do with the clock being manipulated, not actual time. The properties of the island made the clock slow down/speed up, not actual [b]time[\b]. The explanation for the time delay in the homing beacon could be that the electromagnetic properties of the island are jamming the equipment on the boat and they are a lot farther off than they think.

Could this explain "follow that bearing" on the compass? Magnets can mess up a compass, so if there's a rift or break in the magnetism of the island that's the only way off/on. King of like if you have a magnet on your jacket and your lost in the wood... every direction will appear to be north. Maybe the island effects a compass like that, but instead of every direction you travel being NORTH, every direction you travel is the ISLAND.

Could this also explain why Jacob's cabin is mysteriously in a different place?

[missjulie]

The experiment i thought was that a space program (NASA maybe, not 100% sure) sent a rocket the opposite direction of earths orbit, to try an hypothetically go back in time. When they got the time from the rocket, it was only a few nanoseconds behind what was said on earth. I big discovery, nonetheless.

Superman!? But the thing I saw was different. It was a space shuttle... not a rocket, and I think they were just orbiting the moon or something. I will try to find it...

[boyo]

exactly what i'm thinking. The electromagnetic field messes up the equipments, so if you don't know what bearings to follow you have to travel a much longer distance - thus the payload travels for much longer then the straight distance - it's a computer generated route. Instead of 80 km it probably travelled 800. The same way Desmond was going in circles giving up way before reaching out. If you DO know what the mistake in the compass is then you can go the straight route. The difference in the time on the clock is thus explained partly from the longer time travelled and partly by the speed/electromagnetic field which changes the speed of the clock. Actual time never changes - the sun rises and sets and that's it

[missjulie]

The experiment i thought was that a space program (NASA maybe, not 100% sure) sent a rocket the opposite direction of earths orbit, to try an hypothetically go back in time. When they got the time from the rocket, it was only a few nanoseconds behind what was said on earth. I big discovery, nonetheless.

Yes, it would appear you are right...
http://einstein.stanford.edu/content/faqs/gpa_vessot.html

"GP-A, an experiment using an atomic clock aboard a space vehicle, will determine directly the effect of gravitation on time by comparing the rate of the rocket-borne clock with another on Earth. Our new "laboratory" has extended into space and may well be the forerunner of other direct measurements of relativistic and gravitational effects probing even as far as the Sun itself."

That's the only article I could find even relatively close to it. This is why I majored in art, not science.

[missjulie]

From that same article I linked to above...

"A further and more crucial test of the equivalence principle is to see if light waves are also affected equally by gravity and mechanical acceleration."

WHAT!??!!? Light?!! The light looks different here!?!?! I think my head just exploded

[Dzbabykel]

From that same article I linked to above...

"A further and more crucial test of the equivalence principle is to see if light waves are also affected equally by gravity and mechanical acceleration."

WHAT!??!!? Light?!! The light looks different here!?!?! I think my head just exploded

OOOOO very interesting...I think you all may be on to something here....I'll wait for you all to figure it out haha as it is wayyyy over my head :p

[missjulie]

OOOOO very interesting...I think you all may be on to something here....I'll wait for you all to figure it out haha as it is wayyyy over my head :p

Hey wait a minute!

[Dzbabykel]

Hey wait a minute!

Hahaha I kid, I kid ;)

[astolpho]

Alright, finally got a chance to watch lost. You don't know how difficult it is to get an episode over on this side of the pond with no tv and a broken computer....

This is all incredibly interesting, and I am sure that the intricasies are way over my head... However:

I really am not sure it is so much a time distortional field, or time in the true meaning of the word. Time itself is nothing more than a progression of actions, one to the other, or a series of events. But it is continuous, and very much constant. All the experiments being talked about seem to be about the measurement of time, not time itself.

To me, there are several main questions that still remained unanswered, and un-talked about. (Sorry if they were covered in another forum, I repeat, I just got a chance to see the episode.)

How can they talk in real time with the Island to the Ship? Does it have to do with satilites, and is it because they are talking on sat-phones? If so, it would imply that whatever "force" is affecting the island, it is not dome shape, and covering all extents, but is more like a fence.

Why is the ship 80km away in the first place, why doesn't it move any closer? Can it move any closer?

Why does Daniel make such a big deal about leaving at the same exact bearing? If there was a specific entry/exit bearing, wouldn't it have been made clear to the Pilot before the mission started, or is it only that one must leave on the same path that they entered. Could the coordinates that Ben Gave Michael be the trajectory/reverse coordinates of the plane crash?


These are just questions I had while reading the post, I'll try to give them some more thought, but more heads are better than one.

One side note on time agian. Don't automatically assume that minutes are time. Minutes is also a measure of longitude, and is where we derive our measure of time from. One minute in time is a measure of when one longitudal minute is perpedicular to the sun till the next longitudal minute is perpendicular to the sun.

(please forgive bad spelling.)

[boyo]

This is a brilliant observation - it does not have to be time as in a clock - it could have been a longitude...

[thelawgiver]

Good points. Especially, the fact that they can convey contemporaneous communications. As for the bearing. When Ben gave Michael and Walt the boat, he told them to head only on a specific compass bearing. And, I think, the sub came and went based on electronic markers on the ocean floor.

What also troubles me is why would you have someone launch a projectile at your location near people and your only mode of transportation (the chopper)? What if the Chopper was taken out. It looks like Daniel was just super focused on his experiment and not the potential dangers.

[hollie425]

OMG!! PEOPLE ON HERE TALKED ABOUT TIME WARP...I THOUGHT THEY WERE INSANE....BUT ITS TRUEE!!!! wow hows that for a twist on lost??

[Dzbabykel]

OMG!! PEOPLE ON HERE TALKED ABOUT TIME WARP...I THOUGHT THEY WERE INSANE....BUT ITS TRUEE!!!! wow hows that for a twist on lost??

Hahah I know right, crazy!

[missjulie]

LETS DO THE TIME WARP AGAAAAIIN! (did I just date myself? Am I THAT old?)

I think the projectile was like a dummy plastic missile. I don't think it was a projectile that could harm anyone. Or it was just a real obvious prop.

[hollie425]

it is... thats even crazy for lost! lol

[Dzbabykel]

No i think it was used specifically for Dan's experiments, not an actual missile that would hurt anyone.

[WhalerDO]

i agree. i'm pretty sure the "missle" was just for Daniel's project to prove his theory (whatever that might be). I still think there is more to this time thing. The payload arrives at the target location 31 mins late because of the time warp not because it is actually further away, if it was simply because it was further away it would have shown on the radar as having travelled further as well...but if there is the unknown time difference then it would not be know. Afterall the payload arrived at its target location, just 31 mins off.

As for the ability to communicate inspite of the 30/31 min variation. I would argue that the reason they are capable of communicating without any known problems, that doesn't mean they are communicated at the same time. Once the radio signal as been made it is locked and thus they are capable of communicating at what would appear to be similar time, just 31 mins apart.

[PacmanIsLost]

if it really is minutes of longitude it would be a huge clue that the island is moving because i'm pretty sure the devices were still counting up and therefore they mislead you into thinking it is time and not position when it could very well be the other way around

[Maxiden]

Remember, they are communicating via satellite phone. So, the signal from the phone comes to the top - into the space - and the satellite sends signal back to the freighter. So, it means that signals can be sent from the island into the sky/space without any delays...

[naclu]

Thats why Bernard's Wife, The old black woman with cancer didn't die on the island yet. she had a limited amount of time to live.

But, closer to the beginning, wasn't it implied that this island might have had some sort of "healing" properties? Didn't she say something about feeling better while she was there? And, of course, we know that Locke was able to walk there all of a sudden...

Could that be why she's still alive? Also, it's only been about 60-90 days, so if she wasn't better, she may still have some time left...

[WhalerDO]

if the Island is moving and it's not minutes but "longitude" the payload would never have shown as arriving its target on time on the ship. The fact that the ship was capable of tracking the payload and see it arrive at the homing beacon...which it did, just 31 mins after the ship witnessed the arrival. This supports it being a time issue, because the ship is 31 mins ahead in time and so they can see the payload arrive before Daniel 31 mins behind in time did. This goes with the communication thing, the signals are linked just varing in time called

[thelawgiver]

If the island had moved further away from the frieghter, then the chopper would not have had enough gas to return. Daniel would not have let them leave.

[Dzbabykel]

If the island had moved further away from the frieghter, then the chopper would not have had enough gas to return. Daniel would not have let them leave.

Ooo nice point...I dunno if I believe the whole "island moving" theory, I just don't see how that would be possible yet I honestly don't see how anything going on is scientifically possible haha. I mean youcould say sure all this COULD happen, but then how do you explain Jacob and talking to ghosts?? Yikes! :eek:

[thelawgiver]

And very soon Mr. Rourke and Tattoo will emerge from the cabin and welcome the Losties to Fantasy Island.

[youalleverybody]

Forgive me for not having a solid reference for this... but I CANNOT remember where I saw it. Probably on the history channel.

So the experiment is thus: They put a clock on a spaceship and a clock on the ground at NASA, set simultaneously and are exactly the same. After the launch and a few hours (maybe days) they ask the people on the ship what the clock says. Its 15 minutes slower than the clock on Earth. They said gravity has an effect on time and since there's no gravity in space time acts differently.

Please if someone has real facts to back that up post them (and if I'm totally off my rocker... sorry!)

So... if this experiment is true and real, and time is effected by gravity, and time on or around the island is different, than wouldn't it be right to say the gravitational/electromagnetic properties of the island are effecting time?

Just a theory!

yes, this 'theory' was by someone you may have heard of : Albert Einstein. It deals with his "theories' of light speed and gravity. :)

[Dzbabykel]

Yah I agree, there is NOTHING about this show seems realistic so I really think anything is possible....I mean look at Jacob and the fact that Miles talks to spirits or something.....nothing is scientifically possible soo I think time travel is a definite possibility.

[youalleverybody]

there's no time travel, i'm pretty sure I'm not wasting my time watching some sci fi series :)



you don't think this show is 'sci fi'???? are you kidding?

[PacmanIsLost]

they may have had enough gas and daniel might not have really understood yet what was going on.... it could make sense to me for daniel to tell him to follow the same route back to the freighter for either changing time or distance reasons... if the time was changing he might predict the presence of a wormhole and would want him to travel back the same way they came in.... on the other hand he might surmise that the island (and perhaps a bubble of area around the island) are moving and would want him to go back the same way as he came in because the freighter would likely be moving on the same path as the island if it were inside said bubble....

also, if the island was moving and the freighter was moving, but not as fast, Regina could have set off the payload and saw it get to the point that the island was at, but by the time it got there the island had moved and so it didn't arrive until later on.... though on the other hand he again could predict that there was a wormhole that used up about 30 minutes on the clock since he would predict it was fired on a straight line from the freighter....

also, i think these phones might be more than just satellite phones as they have said... as i saw someone post before at some point, Sayid had not recognized this type of technology and Miles flipped out when Sayid used the phone saying he could do something really bad... i think it's safe to say that most regular satellite phones can't do much harm when using their normal functions....

[naclu]

Only 31 minutes....but what confuses me to no end is how their radio signals were on the same time frame....I mean Regina talked him through it while sending over the rocket? :confused:

Perhaps there is a "wormhole" or something which the payload went through, but their radio signals do not...

I was about to say that perhaps daniel told frank to use the same coordinates going back so that they didn't mistakenly go through the wormhole..... OR perhaps they did go through the wormhole on the way in (which is why it got rough and they all parachuted out) and he's saying that they have to go back through it to find the ship.... as though the it wouldn't be the right "time" for the ship to be there if they didn't go back through the timewarp or something...

Didn't Ben say something about not being able to find the island again if you left it after the "sky turned violet" (hatch blew up) as though that incident messed up their homing equipment or something.... Perhaps it is now impossible for them to see the wormhole, or the wormhole is larger or growing larger every 108 minutes since the button isn't being pressed anymore or something crazy like that....

[InLikeFlynn]

Well this explains why they haven't just desended onto the island and why they sent the ghostbusters in to check it out. But I am still curious why daniel was crying and how that may relate to all this!!

[Dzbabykel]

Ahhhh sooo confusing!!! :confused:

[Toad]

But it's only 30 mins.
A 30 minute difference doesn't account Alpert not aging.

And the other others are at the temple.

I have two words. TIME TRAVEL. OK and these. Clock said 31 minutes time difference. Didnt count years, months, weeks, anything is possible when you write a hit show and obviously take a lot of drugs

[kwatt99]

I agree with the guy from across the pond. Don't think of time as hours, minutes and seconds. That kind of time doesn't truly exist; it is only a device invented by man to measure change.

But we do know that there is some funky magnetic stuff happening on and around the island that could affect the force of time. Remember the hatch? The strong magnet down there? What happened when Desmond turned the failsafe key? Yeah. All magnetic.

And, in the previous episode when they found the wreckage, one of the voices on the camera mentioned strange readings on the magnometer.

It's all about the magnets.

[james220]

Don't know if it could mean anything but I'm going to throw it out there and see if anyone has some ideas. The clocks are at 2:45:03 and 3:16:22, so the difference is 31 minutes and 19 seconds. Break it down and we have 1879 seconds. All I've come up with is that 1879 is a prime number and Einstein was born in 1879.

[Dzbabykel]

Haha wow that might be going a bit too in depth lol but thats pretty interesting.

[the chimp]

who is to say it was only 30 miuntes? it could have been a year and 30 minutes?

[astolpho]

Ok, been away from my computer for a couple hours, lots of good thoughts since then.

I am not sure how the longitude measure of minutes affects Daniels experiment, but it could apply to the 108 minute breaks between button pushing. Maybe if the earth rotates to far, without something being reset, then the magnet starts to expand its sphere or something.


Anyways, I was thinking. There has been a lot of talk about light, gravity and time, and how they are all messed up. Well, I am a little rusty on my quantum mechanics, but doesn't a black hole effect all of them? It is essentially a large gravetational field that sucks all light into it, I imagine that is enough to distort how light scatters, and it also, I would imagine, would distort the temporal motion of time. Anyways, so much is unknown about black holes that the writers could say anything and probably find a scientist somewhere to agree with it.

What if Dharma created a black hole in the seventies? Somehow they figured out how to re-manufacture the effects of a black hole with a strong electromagnet... Where better to put it, than in the largest ocean in the world? A great place to experiment on all sorts of things.

Not sure how plausable this is, but it seems to fit a lot, and still give the writers tons of leway room.

[the chimp]

we already know that there is an issue with time, hence the code that neede to be put in. We also know that compasses are useless. We also know that Desmond turned the key to release the electromagnetic field that surrounded the island. But maybe that was there so that they (the Others) could keep current with the present? We also know that the satellite phone tha Naomi had was being blocked by a tower, but like a shooting star, who knows how long that signal took to get there?

[Dzbabykel]

who is to say it was only 30 miuntes? it could have been a year and 30 minutes?

Well I'm confused as to how that would be possible when we heard Regina sending over the missle and it didn't come....but then 30 minutes later it lands? How could it have been MORE than 30 minutes, as you put it, a whole year or more? Just doesn't make sense to me....however none of this does lol.

[the chimp]

it very easily could have been longer - think about light years? or electromagnetism - they both bend time - never constant!

[astolpho]

Oh, another quick thing.... Could someone with tivo, or at least a functioning computer check. Did Juliete leave to go get Desmond when the rocket was launched (clip wise) and return when it finally landed? Cause if so, Daniels worry isn't that the rocket's clock is off by 31 minutes, since Julliete said it would take a couple of hours to get Desmond, it would be a lot longer than 31 minutes, hence the big uh-oh.

[Dzbabykel]

Oh, another quick thing.... Could someone with tivo, or at least a functioning computer check. Did Juliete leave to go get Desmond when the rocket was launched (clip wise) and return when it finally landed? Cause if so, Daniels worry isn't that the rocket's clock is off by 31 minutes, since Julliete said it would take a couple of hours to get Desmond, it would be a lot longer than 31 minutes, hence the big uh-oh.

Oh interesting point...haha I keep assuming we're going TV time...lol just an hour. But that is true, I'd have to go back and check but I'm pretty sure they come back AFTER the missle returned because I believe it was only Jack, Dan and Frank there....Sayid and Charlotte weren't even back yet I don't think?

[the chimp]

Exactly my point!

[missjulie]

So when Lost is over are they going to put out a map or something to help explain everything?!

[Dzbabykel]

So when Lost is over are they going to put out a map or something to help explain everything?!

Ohhh they better have a WHOLE dvd devoted to explaining everything!! I demand it!! Haha :)

[kwatt99]

So when Lost is over are they going to put out a map or something to help explain everything?!
Actually, I'd like to see them sell the entire series re-cut in chronological order. But that's for another discussion.

I just read in another website, someone claims to have seen The Economist prior to air and said in that version the time difference was 31 seconds. If that's true and the writers felt they could make that change, then the actual amount of time doesn't seem very significant. The real thing that matters is that it's different, not how much it's different.

[Jaytee]

I don't buy that whole longitudinal thing that we somehow got into.

I buy the guy's last name that was brought up by one poster and the birth year of albert einstein...thats pretty neat that you found that.

I definitely think that this show is ALOT more science fiction than people are bargaining for. I picture the island being some kind of "Terminal" of sorts that allows people to pass in and out in different times.

For example, the payload was sent in OUR time and thrown into the island, the radio waves stayed real-time, uneffected. The payload passed through the gate of the island and was sent into the past (where the oceanic guys are living).

Also, if I remember correctly, the clocks were off differently! The clock in the payload was ahead by 31 minutes. I have to re-watch it, but I could've sworn that it was 31 minutes the WRONG direction to be in "the past."

Finally, completely off-topic, why was the cockpit of the plane the news people found underwater? Wasn't the cockpit in the jungle? Wasn't the pilot massacred by that monster? CONSPIRACY!

[Jaytee]

Since I can't edit my previous post. I will expand on it in this post with an extension of my thoughts.

Using my theory, let's look at the "taller walt" situation.

Walt somehow gets out of the "terminal" that is slower moving than the outside world. Once out, he is, for whatever reason, told to go back in to tell Locke that he has "more work to be done" (etc...)

He is OLDER because he lived in time that progressed quicker (proportionally faster than the "terminal"), so to Locke it was only a month or two, but to him it could have been a year or so.

This stuff is nuts and please excuse me if I keep posting my different scenarios.

Anyone with thoughts?

[vibman]

I am curious about this time differential thing. If there is one how could the scientist guy communicate with the ship in real time? Plus she locked on to his location right after he turned the apparatus on. Any thoughts on that?

Vibman

[boyo]

you don't think this show is 'sci fi'???? are you kidding?

of course i don't. i'm sure everything has an explanation of some sort. that's the beauty of the show so far

[PacmanIsLost]

well since they said the smoke monster is not related to nano-technology i don't think you're going to get a non science-fiction answer as to what it is.... and the fact that they are applying the casimir effect on a macroscopic level is also science fiction at this point in human history... there's also the point that the writers and producers are heavily influenced by science fiction and make pointed references to it either in the plot, people's names or show titles.... i don't see what's so wrong with the show having science fiction anyways, it's not like it makes it any less of a show...

[skatertsol]

hey skatertsol, i totally agree with you. i think it is only 30 min. because the freighter is closer than the outside world. i think that the further away from the island you are, the greater the time lapse
Thank you! That's what I meant by "circle of craziness"--I think there is some kind of perimeter-it's still messed up within this perimeter but not as much as the island--as if the island radiates the power for a certain range and then dissipates...??

[PacmanIsLost]

for all you circle of craziness fans i wrote about this topic in the thread "the island in the bubble" yesterday and i talk about the time dilation being backwards of how people were first perceiving it...i'd love to hear your thoughts

[BeansInScenes]

Remember, they are communicating via satellite phone. So, the signal from the phone comes to the top - into the space - and the satellite sends signal back to the freighter. So, it means that signals can be sent from the island into the sky/space without any delays...

The satellite phone signal is an electromagnetic wave, in other words light, so it has no mass. Although the direction of travel of light is affected by the curvature of space-time (gravity), its speed is not. So the communication over the sat phone would be almost instantaneous, regardless of the gravity in the area, unless the gravity was so strong that it curved space-time so much that the light was forced back toward its point of origin.

As far as the time difference of the timer on the island and the one in the projectile, I think a critical point is the fact that the person on the boat thinks the projectile has arrived at a different time than Daniel does (she counts all the way down to zero km, implying that she believes it has arrived). I think there's more to it than time generally slowing down or speeding up, something to do with the synchrony of events, and how the actual time of an event is determined by the observer. Both Daniel and the boat person witness the same event, but at different times.

[PacmanIsLost]

but it actually arrives at daniel 31 minutes before because it is only 2:45 on the island while it was 3:16 inside the payload

[mona]

I think that the longer they are on the island they get further and further from the time they came from.Thats way when the chopper was about to leave Daniel Told Frank to stay on the same bearing no matter what. And in the trailer you see the Island and the reflection of a city on the water. TIME /SPACE DISTORTION.

[lostfan]

I think that the longer they are on the island they get further and further from the time they came from.Thats way when the chopper was about to leave Daniel Told Frank to stay on the same bearing no matter what. And in the trailer you see the Island and the reflection of a city on the water. TIME /SPACE DISTORTION.

Yeah I agree. I think if Frank would take a different bearing that maybe the freighter wouldn't be there. Or if he went in a different way to the island he wouldn't find it. And I've been wondering about that image for a long time. Maybe it's showing the island in a different dimension or something...no idea.

[Jaytee]

Any responses to my posts?

I saw that time difference, too.

I completely agree with what was said about the phone, it has no mass so it can go over the "bubble."

I was thinking more about this today:

The Dharma people come in the 60-70s right? So that explains the old bus. Not that much time has elapsed, so that is why Ben does not look 30 years older even though he has been on the island for 30 of our years.

[az-phil]

Well my initial reaction when I watched the show was 31 Seconds, not Minutes. Most stop watches show sub-seconds.

A 31 Minute variance would be tough to explain. Lots of oddities would be obvious with that much distortion between being on and off the island. The helicopter and boats would probably have issues traveling onto the island.

With a large variance you also run into aging oddities. Ben's daughter might still be a kid if that were the case, although I guess the radio beacon they used to time how long frenchy has been there would be skewed too.

Although a large variance like that could explain how they could survive a plane crash. Might have slowed them down before they hit.

I'll stick my head in the sand and keep believing 31 seconds until I see them explain otherwise. :)

[Rand227]

A possibility that we are faced with having to consider is that The Writers of this show are giving us everything in "Real Time". By that, what I mean to say is: Us, as viewers, watch a new episode once a week during it's scheduled airings. What we are given observance of is the happenings of the events on The Island in a more continual flow (hours, days, nights, weeks).

Since it was announced by The Writers that everything happens on The Island in Real Time, we must consider the possibility that the "Life Extension Project" was created in the sense that everything that occurs on The Island is actually along a slower time-line than that of the rest of the world. Jack's note of having been on The Island for approximately 100 days might actually be true to he and the rest of the people who are on The Island but to the rest of the world, they have actually been on The Island for a number of years.

Frank's mention of how his Father was from The Bronx, and his disapproval of The Red Sox winning the World series does not actually mean that he, himself, is referring to the 2004 World Series. He never actually said one way or the other of which World Series he was upset about. Possibly, he may have thought that Jack was referring to the 2007 win and not the 2004 win.

As it was stated previously, the clock in The Payload did not actually tell of days, weeks, months, or years. It stated just hours, minutes and seconds.

It seems that it is more likely that what the "Life Extension Project" actually produced was a Man-Made rip in Space/Time that was regulated by entering The Numbers every 108 minutes. It's regulatory factor being Electromagnetism.

Considering the fact that Frank did not want Daniel talking on the Sat-Phone with Minkowski gives the impression that Frank Lapidus knows more about the overall picture of what is happening (and with that, the assumption that the other three do, as well) yet, wishes to have as little to do with it all as possible. The fact that Frank stated that he was the one who was supposed to be piloting Flight 815 gives the impression that he holds a tremendous amount of guilt over it's loss and eventual crash and wishes only to redeem himself by taking on the mission to pilot the three people whom he took to The Island.

This is not a definition of what is happening, only a possibility to be considered.

[BrockLanders]

The one simple thing that i have not seen pointed out is that yes it was a 30 min difference but it was a 30 min difference on something that should have taken aroudn 45 sec. So the time difference could be major ie every 45 sec real time is 30 min island time. Or it could be exponential based on thoughts that the 108 min timer kept the island in real time and the island has been spining out of time since the hatch implosion.

[Meditate]

Any possibilities to how the Submarine got to the island. I mean, most everything flew to that island, but the sub? Maybe, and this is a maybe, the safest way to travel to the island since water cannot be compressed. I dunno. But yeah, sounds like everyone forgot about the sub since Locke blew it up.

[PacmanIsLost]

the best explanation i have seen for the sub going to and from the island is the one given in the mirror matter theory, but i think generally they might have been able to use the sub to chase down the beacon that was transmitting and find the island and perhaps ben knew it would be destroyed and so once the sub left one more time it would never be able to find the island again...

and someone mentioned it might not be hours, minutes, and seconds because timers can show smaller fractions of a second.... i think this is disproven automatically since we see a couple seconds pass on the clocks and as i've said before i think they are time clocks and not timers as a stopwatch wouldn't give as accurate or comprehensible a result while sending a clock that was matched up to a clock on the island would tell a lot more

[boyo]

well since they said the smoke monster is not related to nano-technology i don't think you're going to get a non science-fiction answer as to what it is.... and the fact that they are applying the casimir effect on a macroscopic level is also science fiction at this point in human history... there's also the point that the writers and producers are heavily influenced by science fiction and make pointed references to it either in the plot, people's names or show titles.... i don't see what's so wrong with the show having science fiction anyways, it's not like it makes it any less of a show...

we don't really know anything about the monster and jacob yet...

btw, since the signals are not blocked anymore, shouldn't be Danielle's tower message be heard soon by someone off the island?

[PacmanIsLost]

we don't really know anything about the monster and jacob yet...

btw, since the signals are not blocked anymore, shouldn't be Danielle's tower message be heard soon by someone off the island?

i was only speaking to what the producers/writers had said about it...

and i'm pretty sure they took out the recording of Rousseau that was being broadcast so that they could call out from the island.... and since we have seen communications performed instantaneously from the island to the freighter, i think there would only be a very small window for her message to have been heard and even then it's not like it helps navigate to the island or anything like that

[Sawyerroxmysox]

i agree...but the experiment kind of creeped me out

[Jaytee]

we don't really know anything about the monster and jacob yet...

btw, since the signals are not blocked anymore, shouldn't be Danielle's tower message be heard soon by someone off the island?

Didn't that unlucky guy hear the radio message when he was in the Navy?

The guy who lived out in the boonies of australia that Hurley went to see.

[Dzbabykel]

Any possibilities to how the Submarine got to the island. I mean, most everything flew to that island, but the sub? Maybe, and this is a maybe, the safest way to travel to the island since water cannot be compressed. I dunno. But yeah, sounds like everyone forgot about the sub since Locke blew it up.

I didn't forget about the submarine at all and I personally have a small theory on it...

If you go back and watch the episode where Locke "blows up" the submarine, you see him walking on the dock (dry) and the submarine is clearly sticking up out of the water. In the next scene when Ben is taking Jack and Juliette to the sub, you see Jack walking towards them on the dock and he's soak and wet (whereas before he was dry) and the sub is no longer sticking out of the water or seen at all. Thats when you see this huge explosion. Personally, I think Locke hid the submarine somewhere and created a false explosion to make them THINK the sub had been destroyed. Everytime people bring up the fact that Locke destroyed the sub, like when Sayid brings it up, Locke always starts to talk but never gets to finish and gets cut off. Anyway thats just my 2 cents but I really think the sub is going to come back into play at some point. Locke isn't stupid and I seriously doubt he would blow something like that up regardless whether or not he wants to stay on the island.

[BigL5000]

I think the island is in a time portal.

[csharp1990]

I didn't forget about the submarine at all and I personally have a small theory on it...

If you go back and watch the episode where Locke "blows up" the submarine, you see him walking on the dock (dry) and the submarine is clearly sticking up out of the water. In the next scene when Ben is taking Jack and Juliette to the sub, you see Jack walking towards them on the dock and he's soak and wet (whereas before he was dry) and the sub is no longer sticking out of the water or seen at all. Thats when you see this huge explosion. Personally, I think Locke hid the submarine somewhere and created a false explosion to make them THINK the sub had been destroyed. Everytime people bring up the fact that Locke destroyed the sub, like when Sayid brings it up, Locke always starts to talk but never gets to finish and gets cut off. Anyway thats just my 2 cents but I really think the sub is going to come back into play at some point. Locke isn't stupid and I seriously doubt he would blow something like that up regardless whether or not he wants to stay on the island.

Wow, I'm about to re-watch that episode. Great Discovery and that is a pretty good theory. Locke isn't dumb enough to blow up a chance to get off the island, even if he doesn't want to leave.

[az-phil]

All this talk has me thinking about one of my favorite movies as a kid, Time Bandits

Maybe this is the rescue ship
http://www.sweatpantserection.com/stories/img/16/time_bandits_giant.jpg

[WhalerDO]

I like that theory DZ, and that is a great pickup. That theory could explain how others of the Oceanic flight get off the Island are are not part of the Oceanic 6, as some believe Kate not to be. If that is the case then it is possible that Kate is speaking of Sawyer.

As for how the submarine is on the Island and how it might be the only safe way to get there, i am pretty sure it is like the boat and chopper. If you know the correct coordinates you can make it to and from the Island safely.

[thelawgiver]

If I remember correctly, the sub came and went by some underwater radio beacons

[PacmanIsLost]

I didn't forget about the submarine at all and I personally have a small theory on it...

If you go back and watch the episode where Locke "blows up" the submarine, you see him walking on the dock (dry) and the submarine is clearly sticking up out of the water. In the next scene when Ben is taking Jack and Juliette to the sub, you see Jack walking towards them on the dock and he's soak and wet (whereas before he was dry) and the sub is no longer sticking out of the water or seen at all. Thats when you see this huge explosion. Personally, I think Locke hid the submarine somewhere and created a false explosion to make them THINK the sub had been destroyed. Everytime people bring up the fact that Locke destroyed the sub, like when Sayid brings it up, Locke always starts to talk but never gets to finish and gets cut off. Anyway thats just my 2 cents but I really think the sub is going to come back into play at some point. Locke isn't stupid and I seriously doubt he would blow something like that up regardless whether or not he wants to stay on the island.


I finally went back and watched this episode over again and you are right on...there is at least a good 10 minute window (if not longer) from when locke gets on the sub and is shown getting off and obviously the clothes being soaked are a huge clue and after watching the scene when locke and ben are talking before locke leaves, i think ben convinced him in a way but locke didn't totally but it, and then when alex tells him that ben is manipulating him he says he will keep that in mind so he must see that ben is letting him destroy it and letting him think it's all his own will...so then i think locke manipulates the situation by making even ben think that the sub has been blown up so that locke then has the upper hand.... very interesting change in the course of events... great catch, i wished i had gotten a chance to watch season 3 more than once so i could've caught more things like this....

[georgebushisaretard]

Hi everybody, I know this thread is about the time 'delay' experiment, but as it's gone back to the sub, can I just point out (as my post straight after the original episode airing will show - on the old site)...Not only did Locke have time to move the sub and pretend to blow it up, he also knew how to pilot it. Check out one of the older episodes, we see John (in wheelchair) spending time on a computer simulation called, 'Sub Commander'.

I will post my time 'delay' experiment theory, after lunch.

[Dzbabykel]

I finally went back and watched this episode over again and you are right on...there is at least a good 10 minute window (if not longer) from when locke gets on the sub and is shown getting off and obviously the clothes being soaked are a huge clue and after watching the scene when locke and ben are talking before locke leaves, i think ben convinced him in a way but locke didn't totally but it, and then when alex tells him that ben is manipulating him he says he will keep that in mind so he must see that ben is letting him destroy it and letting him think it's all his own will...so then i think locke manipulates the situation by making even ben think that the sub has been blown up so that locke then has the upper hand.... very interesting change in the course of events... great catch, i wished i had gotten a chance to watch season 3 more than once so i could've caught more things like this....

Ohh good I'm glad you can confirm that, i was hoping I was right as I didn't have time to go back and check :)

[XmasDVD]

So what's Locke's plan for the sub? To get himself off the island? To help Ben?

[georgebushisaretard]

OK. The two clocks were syncronised, then the 'missile' was launched. The freighter logged it as arriving on the island in 2:45 (approx.), two minutes later ('our' time - again, approx.) it landed at the correct co-ordinates but its clock was out by an additional :30 (approx.). So, just going on the two digital read-outs, the off-island clock was running 18% faster (or longer!) than its stationary counterpart, the difference being 2/13ths - this could also be represented as the island's clock is running 16% slower (11/13ths time/distance of the freighter). Now, I've used percents and fractions to avoid the question of; is it 'minutes' or 'hours' on the timepiece?
As we get further away from the island's "Circle of Craziness" (nice one, skate!) the differential could increase to the x10 factor that a previous poster suggested.

So, time itself (NOT a time-measuring device!) is affected by gravitational forces and can flow at different rates. Of course, we also have Space-Time, that is even weirder! so I'm not going to dwell on that.

Whilst formulating this message, I have thought of another circumstance where time appears to move at different rates, and that is around a black hole, although where you'd hide one of them on the island is anybody's guess!

[TSOL1]

Maybe they have to stick to the exact coordinates as before or they will end up in an alternate reality. Sort of like the Island is the hub that hundreds of different realities are connected too. If you veer off the path you end up in a different place.

When they are rescued they end up in a different world, and that is why Jack wants to get back to the island so he can get back to his own time. But Kate and Hurley dont want to risk it or are happy with the world they are in.

[lostfan]

I thought Hurley kinda wanted to go back. He said in S4,first episode,"I think it wants us back" and Jack said "We're never going back!", but Hurley said "Never say never man". So I believe he'll want to go back to the island.

Also of course there's some big secret there keeping from everyone. Jack mentioned it to Kate in S3 finale. Then Jack and Hurley talked about it too. It's probably something with the island in the past or something.

[ImagoDei]

I dont want to kill any ideas, but I have found a problem with the time theory. At least with any large time diferences. When the real world found the plane, the pilots body was still there. At least mostly. From more of a medical stand point, It would be about that decomposed after 100 days. If it where our time ( Viewers time frame ) or anyother time differenced where seconds equaled minutes or days or years, the body would be much more decomposed as would the clothes and the plane wouldnt have been so clean and open. ( It would be more covored in dirt and build-up ). Even if it is a conspiracy ( which I think it is ) The people in the show would know that as well. So I do not think that time is being slowed down on the island, but lean more towards the idea that the island isnt really where it apears on a normal GPS. I stated my Idea on a different post... Here it is...

Not sure if a worm hole is the right term, maybe the magnitism has a larger affect than we think. ( IE "the light doesnt scatter right" ) But the island isnt actually where it apears to be on GPS. And the only way to end up at the island is to head at it through an "entry point" or "door" and head at a particular direction until you hit it. The bearing they gave Walt and Michael when they left the island. Asuming that is the same bearing that Faraday told the pilot to stay on no mater what. So the door is what is showing up on GPS, so when the payload it the door the person on the phone said it was there, but in reality it was just at the door, and it took another 31 min. to actually get to their location.

[skatertsol]

I dont want to kill any ideas, but I have found a problem with the time theory. At least with any large time diferences. When the real world found the plane, the pilots body was still there. At least mostly. From more of a medical stand point, It would be about that decomposed after 100 days. If it where our time ( Viewers time frame ) or anyother time differenced where seconds equaled minutes or days or years, the body would be much more decomposed as would the clothes and the plane wouldnt have been so clean and open. ( It would be more covored in dirt and build-up ). Even if it is a conspiracy ( which I think it is ) The people in the show would know that as well. So I do not think that time is being slowed down on the island, but lean more towards the idea that the island isnt really where it apears on a normal GPS. I stated my Idea on a different post... Here it is...

Not sure if a worm hole is the right term, maybe the magnitism has a larger affect than we think. ( IE "the light doesnt scatter right" ) But the island isnt actually where it apears to be on GPS. And the only way to end up at the island is to head at it through an "entry point" or "door" and head at a particular direction until you hit it. The bearing they gave Walt and Michael when they left the island. Asuming that is the same bearing that Faraday told the pilot to stay on no mater what. So the door is what is showing up on GPS, so when the payload it the door the person on the phone said it was there, but in reality it was just at the door, and it took another 31 min. to actually get to their location.
That wasn't the real pilot though, right? Wasn't it staged? That's why the Helicopter Pilot (I can't remember his name right now) Called in and said that's not the pilot, that he knew the pilot, that he knew b/c he was SUPPOSED to be flying that day? That part of the plane was elsewhere on the island, anyway (Remember is episode 1 of this season where Jack and Kate are at that part of the plane, talking about how it seemed like so long ago they were there with Charlie, trying to get to the radio?) I think Oceanic has a big part in this island and is going to great lengths to do a coverup, even staging that plane at the bottom of the ocean.

[thelawgiver]

In physics, a quantum leap or quantum jump is a change of an electron from one energy state to another within an atom. It is discontinuous; the electron jumps from one energy level to another instantaneously. The phenomenon contradicts classical theories, which expect energy levels to be continuous. Quantum leaps are the sole cause of the emission of electromagnetic radiation, including that of light, which occurs in the form of quantized units called photons;

or

Quantum Leap is an American science fiction television series that ran for 96 episodes from March 1989 to May 1993 on the NBC network.

The plot involved scientist Sam Beckett (Scott Bakula) leaping to various points in time, usually constrained within the period of his own lifetime.

In the near future (1995), at a highly classified U.S. government-funded research facility somewhere in the desert near the small ranching town of Stallion's Gate, New Mexico, physicist Sam Beckett (Scott Bakula) is working on a grand experiment to prove his time-travel theory. Sam is working alongside Gooshie, the lead programmer of Project Quantum Leap. Gooshie also works the controls for the imaging chamber. However, the funding for the project is about to be cut. Sam's colleagues protest that they're not ready, but in a last-ditch effort to prove that his theories are correct, Sam steps into the project's "accelerator chamber" too early and vanishes.


Dean Stockwell & Scott BakulaSam appears in the past with no memory of who he is or where he is. This side-effect of uneven amnesia is called Swiss-cheesing or (as a technical term in the show's universe) magnafluxing, which prevents him from remembering most of the details of his own life.

[csharp1990]

what are you trying to say?

[StinkyBill]

Hi everybody, I know this thread is about the time 'delay' experiment, but as it's gone back to the sub, can I just point out (as my post straight after the original episode airing will show - on the old site)...Not only did Locke have time to move the sub and pretend to blow it up, he also knew how to pilot it. Check out one of the older episodes, we see John (in wheelchair) spending time on a computer simulation called, 'Sub Commander'.

I will post my time 'delay' experiment theory, after lunch.


On the page for a clip of the sub blowing up on YouTube, someone posted that the music playing when Locke goes into the sub is the same music that plays when you sabotage a sub in Medal of Honor. I can't personally confirm that, but if true it's an interesting, if tangential, connection to the 'Sub Commander' scene, with the video game overlap.

[ImagoDei]

I agree in that it was a set-up and the pilot wasn't the same. But if it was any significant amount of time difference, people would know that the body was not under water for the same amount of time.

[easterbeast]

ummm, im confused about 1 thing....
im not sure if it was discussed yet..

but..if the island is indeed 30 minutes behind from regular time.
why is it that when that dude spoke to the boat in the experiment(i forgot his name).............was it instant diologue??? .not 30 minutes separeting the sentences???

[ecw0930]

ummm, im confused about 1 thing....
im not sure if it was discussed yet..

but..if the island is indeed 30 minutes behind from regular time.
why is it that when that dude spoke to the boat in the experiment(i forgot his name).............was it instant diologue??? .not 30 minutes separeting the sentences???



That is a GREAT POINT! Why if the shipment came 31 minutes late, was the talking not delayed? Maybe it has to do with the wavelengths of the phone/radio/voices.

But great point nonetheless!

[easterbeast]

im still baffled.;->

i started to think...because sound and light travel at such high speeds you would not notice the differece...............but thats irrelovant,

the clock...........31 minutes is 31 minutes no matter how fast voice travels.

either there is a flaw or an oversight or there is something else not explained.

[justjoe]

I think it was noted earlier in this thread that a possible reason for the voices to be instantly connected was because radio waves are not affected but actual physical matter is. I have also seen somewhere that it had been 31 days since the hatch imploded. Are they losing a minute a day? Also also, why was Daniel conducting this expirement in the first place? Do the Freightees know that there is something strange about this island?

[WhalerDO]

This was an earlier message that i had posted earlier in which i talked about the communication issue
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i agree. i'm pretty sure the "missle" was just for Daniel's project to prove his theory (whatever that might be). I still think there is more to this time thing. The payload arrives at the target location 31 mins late because of the time warp not because it is actually further away, if it was simply because it was further away it would have shown on the radar as having travelled further as well...but if there is the unknown time difference then it would not be know. Afterall the payload arrived at its target location, just 31 mins off.

As for the ability to communicate inspite of the 30/31 min variation. I would argue that the reason they are capable of communicating without any known problems, that doesn't mean they are communicated at the same time. Once the radio signal has been made it is locked and thus they are capable of communicating at what would appear to be similar time, just 31 mins apart.

[thelawgiver]

If radio waves are not affected by matter, then everytime we use any radios, we could be talking to people in the past/future, etc. Communications are slower than light. Remember the reporters reporting live from the Gulf via satelite? There was always a delay.

[Lost in VA]

Quantum Leap is an American science fiction television series that ran for 96 episodes from March 1989 to May 1993 on the NBC network. (from Patchy)

I loved that show...maybe thats why I like Lost...I'm into time travel

[Dzbabykel]

Oh thats an interesting point Patchy...man I wish I knew more about this stuff, I first I felt so in the loop about was going on and now I'm just miserably LOST!!!

[justjoe]

I used to watch Quantum Leap with my mom every week. Cheesy but good. Kinda like Greatest American Hero.

[ImagoDei]

This thread is spiraling out of control :confused: ... I deffinitly dont think LOST has anything to do with, or is like Quantum Leap... ( I did enjoy the show ) but have to disagree with any similarities between Lost and QL. Someone mentioned at one point that the phones they are using are not normal GPS Satalite phones. I do agree with them and am pretty sure, that what ever form of communication the phones are using, is obviously not affected by the magnitism or whatever affected the clock. Possibly programed to adjust for whatever complications a normal cell phone/sat phone would have.

[islander]

great dialogue and analysis, but if the missle was 31 minutes late, it seemed to me to be too small to carry enough fuel for what should have been a sub-one minute flight. so i'm not sure the missle's flight was 31 minutes longer in total distance - i like the worm hole/space/time theories. also, assuming the helicopter flight which originated from the same freighter, would be traveling much slower than the missle it seems likely the helicopter would have taken longer to reach the island than the missle, and assuming they actually traveled that extra distance, they too would have used more fuel than expected. the pilot made some reference to not having a lot of fuel left, but he didn't seem surprised by how much fuel they used. so, again, i think that's evidence that neither the missle nor the helicopter actually traveled further than they expected even though both flights took more TIME than expected...just my theory.

[Meditate]

Totally agree with ya...

Say he leaves the island in the helicopter and it says his boat is way off to the right (or something like that) and his fuel is running out, but if he holds course and makes it through said electronic problems both will work out and he will have good fuel and heading, but things may be dicey for a while.

[Workman]

I agree... I posted the numbers earlier... it was 31 minutes, they've been on the island for 94 days and the hatch has been gone for 28 days (and 108 minutes is significant for some reason.) I'm not a math person, so I was hoping someone would find a link between the 31 minutes and all those other numbers...

108 minutes multiplied by X equals Y days and 31 minutes?? Find X and Y!



I'm sure this has been posted by now, but I didn't have time to go through every post...If 2 minutes on the island is equal to about 31 minutes off of it, that means that roughly 95 days on the island is just over 4 years off of it. This would explain Richards lack of aging, Ben aging even faster due to his repeated trips off of the island, Walt being older, Desmonds ability to see the future (he's moving in real time so alot of things are coming to him as deja vu) and so on...

[Workman]

Not to mention 4 years is almost real time for the show being on television.

[justjoe]

I thought they have been on the island for 100 days?

[thelawgiver]

Each season was supposed to equivalent to a month on the island. So yes, about 100 days by now.

[TuesdaySmith]

Didn't that unlucky guy hear the radio message when he was in the Navy?

The guy who lived out in the boonies of australia that Hurley went to see.

He didn't hear Danielle's message, he heard the numbers. Remember, that's how Hurley got the numbers? The unlucky guy and the number guy from the institution were in the military together, stationed somewhere in the south Pacific. They heard the numbers over their radio.

[TuesdaySmith]

I'm still convinced that island time and rest of the world time are the same. Not one theory that I've read makes much sense..

[thelawgiver]

Yes, the numbers were the original island broadcast, but that guy was in the Navy well before Rousseau changed the recording in around 1988 and I think by that time, Ben was blocking transmissions from being heard off the island.

[Workman]

Each season was supposed to equivalent to a month on the island. So yes, about 100 days by now.


I realize this thread has gotten off topic, but go back to the beginning of this thread and read how this all got started...The dilation experiment that Daniel Faraday performs shows that there is a time difference on the island from the rest of the world. On his stopwatch it shows that there is a 2 min lapse between when that charge was meant to hit the ground and when it actually did...Minkowski on the boat estimated it to be 31 minutes from the boat's stand point off shore. it seems that time is moving faster off of the island.

[Workman]

If a 2 minute lapse on the island is equal to about 31 minutes off of it, that means that 100 days of progression on the island is equal to about 1550 days off of it...or 4.25 years.

[Dharma Initiate 815]

And the Lost writers love to relate things to C.S. Lewis. And if you think about Narnia, time always went differently there. They lived whole lifetimes in Narnia and came back to London and no time had past.

[Meditate]

Yeah, I just saw the new Chronicles of Narnia :Prince Caspian trailer and it said something along the lines of --- It's been one year for them (showing the four kids) but it's been 1000 years for Narnia (camera zooms into Narnia).

A Little extreme for Lost but still a time shift none the less.

[Dzbabykel]

Yah they are a lot of parallels between Narnia and Lost actually....I never realized it til recently.

[james220]

If a 2 minute lapse on the island is equal to about 31 minutes off of it, that means that 100 days of progression on the island is equal to about 1550 days off of it...or 4.25 years.

I think you're on to something here. I've been looking at the simpler experiment rather than what it might mean in the big picture. If time moves 15 times slower on the island it could answer many questions.

[csharp1990]

In the theories section i posted something that helps understand the time dilation better.

[boyo]

Do not assume that only 1-2 minutes passed until the payload arrived. It could have been 1 minute late , but it could have been 2 hours late as well. In fact, we can't even assume the two clocks were showing the same time when the payload was fired, neither that any of the two is showing the correct time.

The only thing that we know for sure is that clocks behave differently on the island itself and in the island's "atmosphere". In addition, this is just an electronic measuring device, not time itself. It is just a clock - a battery and a small electric circuit - it depends on the steady flow of 1 Hz electricity with constant voltage to measure time correctly. When that changes (when the battery is drained our watches will usually first slow down before stopping) - the "second" that the digital clock measures is not a real second anymore. Therefore you can easily make a clock run at a different speed if you change the Hz of the input electricity. As this is electromagnetic radiation, the frequency of the electricity can easily be influenced by a stronger electromagnetic radiation , but ONLY of a similar frequency (unless it's extremely strong). Thus a 2.8 GHz radiation (your mobiles) would not influence a 2.2 Ghz (your computer's cpu), unless maybe the two are right next to each other. But, a radio station on 95.4 MHz might interfere with another station on 96.1 if the signal of the first is stronger than the second. Plus, you can surely pick up some signal on 95.5 MHz. In short - phones would be unaffected, because the electromagnetism of the island is at a different frequency, which is closer to the one of the digital clock that Daniel uses. Also , the field is not as strong on the island's land, but is just surrounding the island or something like this, because the clock ON the island is not affected.

[Dharma Initiate 815]

That would also explain why no one seems to age on the island.

[wetdogsmell]

I absolutely love some of these theories!!

[stream]

Ok this thread is way too long, my computer connection is way too slow, so I fogot half or more of what I planned to say now that I am FINALLY down here at the bottom.
OK the time change is proportinal, like dividing and multiplying, not just add 31 minutes is the first thing, which I see most have realized, and it is going to depend on how far we are from the Island, so it can't really be pinpointed down like we would want to yet, not enough info, but definately time is changing. I looked again and you would think Frank (the pilot) would have had a reaction when Jack said 100 days, though he may have just not thought thats what Jack meant - 100 days on the Island, (thats when Jack and Frank were talking aabout the World Series) and I know they wwere interrupted by the arrival of the payload, 31 minutes 20 seconds late, but still it seemed he had time to hear him and Frank shoulda freaked out , cause he was supposed to fly it and knew the date it went down very well

and Time bandits was cool movie, wonder if it is on DVD
and Quantum Leap was cool I used to love that show, but way different than LOST
and I am sorry my keyboard is stutterin again today,
and my son said somthing and it made me think that Ben is so powerful, not only because of his sociopathic to the max personality, BUT MAAYBE HE CAN MANIPULATE THE TIME CHANGE just a theory - well maybe not manipulate it , but knows how it works so well he can uese it to his advantage.
who thinks that Ben staged the date of when he showed Juliet her sister with the baby maade it seem as if it happened in a different time frame?
its makein me dizzy, trying to figure this out!!!!
n where did that quote come from

all im gonna get is ......and a ...new nickname
is it about Sawyer?

[Dharma Initiate 815]

It is a quote from Jack regarding sawyer from Season 1...
I need to know more about the time deplacement!!! I am desperate for an explanation.

[HardrocksII]

It is a quote from Jack regarding sawyer from Season 1...
I need to know more about the time deplacement!!! I am desperate for an explanation.

so then its possible jacks knowledge of sawyers past is obtainable, can be corrected ? as if he's(jack) been at the island before ? ......:confused:

[justjoe]

Well we can kind of figure out how far the boat was based on how much gas the helicopter holds and what the gas mileage is (assuming of course that they had a full tank to begin with).

[tacky]

I don't think there is much time difference between the island and the rest of the world. When Ben shows Jack the red sox winning the superbowl (or whatever it is) to prove he can get off the island, Jack asked Frank about it and he just said it was right. He didn't seem to react as though it happened ages ago or owt

[mj148]

Hi all,
I can't believe how long this thread is and I hate to have to add to it, but if anyone is still reading - Isn't it possible that the boaties are tricking the losties by pretending to launch a missle and give this big dramatic countdown, then actually send the missle 30 minutes later with a rigged clock inside?

[boyo]

not really - it's daniel who's shocked. the losties don't even find out about it I think

[Dharma Initiate 815]

I think that Daniel Faraday's reaction was genuine when he was super surprised by the time difference. Also I am not sure that based off of what we know so far that he is capable of a poker face.

[ortrules]

Hi all,
I can't believe how long this thread is and I hate to have to add to it, but if anyone is still reading - Isn't it possible that the boaties are tricking the losties by pretending to launch a missle and give this big dramatic countdown, then actually send the missle 30 minutes later with a rigged clock inside?

They could, of course. But none of the losties even saw the clock, only Daniel did. And judging by his reaction alone, I'm pretty sure he's not doing it on purpose.

[conkeys19]

http://theoriesonlost.blogspot.com/

there is a pretty good theory here that seems to make a lot of sense. its called: Island Time Now Falling Behind Real Time by BFD

You should all read it. this guy might be on to something

[WhalerDO]

Kate's mom states that the doctors have given her 6 months to live for the past 4 years!!! so looks like the time wrap theory is still in effect!

[WhalerDO]

Damn! ok so not her baby and he's older....oh lost and that storm could it be the time portal?? oh LOST you've got me LOST again!

[TSOL1]

It's aaron, claires baby. But look how old he is.

[stevebennet]

A long time ago I read of an experiment done with a clock in a jet and a clock on the ground synced up and the jet flew several hundred miles. There was a difference in the time, only a millionth or billionth of a second diff. but a difference all the same. Maybe the electromagnetic field around the island travel so fast that that is what is causing the time warp. Just a hunch.

[james220]

Don't know if it could mean anything but I'm going to throw it out there and see if anyone has some ideas. The clocks are at 2:45:03 and 3:16:22, so the difference is 31 minutes and 19 seconds. Break it down and we have 1879 seconds. All I've come up with is that 1879 is a prime number and Einstein was born in 1879.

I noticed on the pop up from The Economist that the writers make a point to say the payload took 31 minutes and 18 seconds. So I missed by a second on my previous post. So now the number is 1878 seconds difference. Seems even less relevant I guess.

[PacmanIsLost]

Kate's mom states that the doctors have given her 6 months to live for the past 4 years!!! so looks like the time wrap theory is still in effect!

I'm not certain but i'm pretty sure she didn't see her mom for a very long time before getting on flight 815 and matthew fox said it's been one and a half years since they've been off the island... so i don't think this has anything to do with any of the time dilation but rather they hadn't seen each other for over 2 years before kate got on the plane

[bferrari]

Don't know how many of you know this but all the clocks on GPS satellites run like seven microseconds slow every week or every month, compared to earth-bound clocks. These satellite clocks are reset to synchronize with the earth-bound time every week or every month. This is due to time dialation. The fact that it is true makes it all the more wild!:o

[bferrari]

That wasn't the real pilot though, right? Wasn't it staged? That's why the Helicopter Pilot (I can't remember his name right now) Called in and said that's not the pilot, that he knew the pilot, that he knew b/c he was SUPPOSED to be flying that day? That part of the plane was elsewhere on the island, anyway (Remember is episode 1 of this season where Jack and Kate are at that part of the plane, talking about how it seemed like so long ago they were there with Charlie, trying to get to the radio?) I think Oceanic has a big part in this island and is going to great lengths to do a coverup, even staging that plane at the bottom of the ocean.

I believe that Oceanic is owned by the Halso(sic) guy who was responsible for Dharma, right? That would explain the connection of Oceanic and the island and Dharma.

[stuartsjg]

hopefully this will help a little bit on the time dilation experiment faraday did.

Formerly, from experiments at slow speeds, time was believed to be a constant, which progressed at a fixed rate; however, later high-speed experiments revealed that time slowed down at higher speeds (with such slowing called "time dilation"). Many experiments have confirmed the slowing from time dilation, such as atomic clocks onboard a Space Shuttle running slower than synchronized Earth-bound clocks. Since time varies, it is treated as a variable within the spacetime coordinate grid, and time is no longer assumed to be a constant, independent of the location in space.


Ive witnessed the arrival of two syncronised atomic clocks. One went round the earth on a plane seat, the other stayed put. When they checked, they were diffirent by the ammount they would be expected to drift in over 2500 years. I beleive the theory goes, if you travel at light speed, time will stop all together.

Further daily evidence, if the GPS system did not correct for time dilation, the system would drift by 11.5km/day!!

The time etc in the GPS and comms satelights are corrected by atomic clocks which are syncronised continuously by a form of pinging.

Stuart