Confused about Desmond

[littleredman]

Hello.

Sorry if this has been discussed elsewhere, but it's been bugging me this evening.

We already know that Desmond is apparently 'Special' and that Faraday can change his pas/implant memories etc. But is there any reason why the memory of Faraday and Desmond meeting outside the hatch took several years to materialise into Desmond's brain?

Did it just arrive at the time it did because 'that's the way it is'? Was there a trigger? Is it some kind of fate?

[thelawgiver]

Hello.

Sorry if this has been discussed elsewhere, but it's been bugging me this evening.

We already know that Desmond is apparently 'Special' and that Faraday can change his pas/implant memories etc. But is there any reason why the memory of Faraday and Desmond meeting outside the hatch took several years to materialise into Desmond's brain?

Did it just arrive at the time it did because 'that's the way it is'? Was there a trigger? Is it some kind of fate?

I would say that he did not have that memory until Faraday planted it. In other words, Des' past was that he never meet Faraday outside the hatch. Skip to the present and the Island is skipping in time. Faraday changes the past by talking to Des and "pop", it is now in Des' memory and he wakes up and recalls.

[littleredman]

But the memory took at least three years after the disappearance of the island to enter Desmond's memory. Is there a reason for this, or could it just be the restraints of the writing in order to make things work correctly?

[msmith92]

Did it take that long for Des to become aware of Dan's message? It seemed to occur the instant the new memory or scene was added to his "memory". I think Des is special in that way. He can become conscious of new events that happen to past Desmond.

That's why Dan said you can't change the future.

Des also happens to be Dan's constant so that could be one way to change things. Sawyer was not connected to Des that way so Dan knew that it wouldn't help anything if Sawyer tried to interact with him.

[littleredman]

I think I'm being misunderstood, perhaps. I know that Desmond is special and that Faraday is capable of altering his memories, I'm simply curious what triggered the memory to 'arrive' at the TIME it did.

What connection is there between the moment the memory was created, and the moment Des 'received' it?

It may have occured the 'instant' it happened in the way the story was edited, but not in real time. It took years.

[msmith92]

Because the past was altered. There was no memory until that happened.

It doesn't matter how far back you go to add a new memory, but once that happens, the past and the present become the same time.

The memory didn't fester in his subconscious for 3 years. Because until then, nothing was there to suppress.

It was instantaneous for both Desmond past and future-present. :)

[Unbridled Pageantry]

Because the past was altered. There was no memory until that happened.

It doesn't matter how far back you go to add a new memory, but once that happens, the past and the present become the same time.

The memory didn't fester in his subconscious for 3 years. Because until then, nothing was there to suppress.

It was instantaneous for both Desmond past and future-present. :)

That's not what he mean's
When Faraday met Desmond at the Swan, in real time the 06 would have still been on Penny's boat for that week. Technically Faraday met Daniel within a day of the island being moved.
So the 3 year wait? Was it the island holding out the memory until the time was right?

[ortrules]

That's not what he mean's
When Faraday met Desmond at the Swan, in real time the 06 would have still been on Penny's boat for that week. Technically Faraday met Daniel within a day of the island being moved.
So the 3 year wait? Was it the island holding out the memory until the time was right?

Right. I realize what people are saying that this "new memory" popped in Desmond's head, but if you really think about it, why did it still take him 3+ years to remember it?

I believe it was something similar to the island holding the memory until the time was right. If you look at our chain of events now, Desmond had this memory and was eventually led to LA at the same time that Jack and Ben are gathering up the O'6 in LA to get back to the island. Seems like an awfully huge coincidence that Desmond is headed that way, doesn't it? It's like the memory was revealed to him at the right time just so he would be in the position to head back to the island with the O'6.

[msmith92]

Are you sure the 3 years later wasn't just to state the obvious? That it was the future Desmond that they were now showing.

[Joe7280]

That's not what he mean's
When Faraday met Desmond at the Swan, in real time the 06 would have still been on Penny's boat for that week. Technically Faraday met Daniel within a day of the island being moved.
So the 3 year wait? Was it the island holding out the memory until the time was right?

I agree, this is the real question being asked. Was it really 3 years worth of time before Desmond received the memory?

One other thing to consider with this is that when Desmond came out of the hatch door, he specifically said "you've been banging on this door for 20 minutes". Daniel wasn't banging on the door that long, Sawyer was. So any preconception we have that Sawyer would not have been able to talk to Desmond, or that Desmond was oblivious to Sawyer's attempt to get in, should be thrown out the window. The interaction between Sawyer and Desmond "could" have occured, we simply do not know if the same outcome would have been possible.

[lost-lover01]

This has bothered me too. Island time it has only technically been a few days and 06 time it has been three years. Are we going to see a full three years play out island time or when the 06 return will it still have only been a matter of days because of the time jumping??

[ortrules]

I agree, this is the real question being asked. Was it really 3 years worth of time before Desmond received the memory?

One other thing to consider with this is that when Desmond came out of the hatch door, he specifically said "you've been banging on this door for 20 minutes". Daniel wasn't banging on the door that long, Sawyer was. So any preconception we have that Sawyer would not have been able to talk to Desmond, or that Desmond was oblivious to Sawyer's attempt to get in, should be thrown out the window. The interaction between Sawyer and Desmond "could" have occured, we simply do not know if the same outcome would have been possible.

We don't know how long Dan was standing at the door. And the theory is that while Sawyer could have banged on the door all day (and Desmond would have heard it) Desmond never would have come out because the rules of time says so.

[Lieutenant Dan]

One other thing to consider with this is that when Desmond came out of the hatch door, he specifically said "you've been banging on this door for 20 minutes". Daniel wasn't banging on the door that long, Sawyer was. So any preconception we have that Sawyer would not have been able to talk to Desmond, or that Desmond was oblivious to Sawyer's attempt to get in, should be thrown out the window. The interaction between Sawyer and Desmond "could" have occured, we simply do not know if the same outcome would have been possible.

Not necessarily, Just because he heard Sawyer banging on the door, in Desmond's mind he thought it was Faraday. I think Faraday meant, you can't meet him if it didn't happen, and so he didn't meet him.

Sawyer could keep banging on the door for an hour, and Desmond would have never come to the door until Sawyer left. The show's conception of "fate" would prevent it from ever happening.

[msmith92]

I agree, this is the real question being asked. Was it really 3 years worth of time before Desmond received the memory?


I'll say no. It was instantaneous.

[littleredman]

I'll say no. It was instantaneous.

But it wasn't instantaneous! How come you think that?

[msmith92]

Also, Dan made a key point to emphasize that "Right now, We are in trouble" (this signifies to me the two time periods are equal).

As soon as that scene ended, Des woke up with the new knowledge.

I guess you need to ask the question, "did dan alter time's events using des?".

[msmith92]

I guess we also need to ask.."what did dan read in his book that would suggest banging on the hatch and speaking to des would even work?".

[littleredman]

In terms of the linear consciousnesses of the characters, whilst the Islanders are travelling through time the Oceanic 6 and Desmond are just leaving the island.

The "we are in trouble now" line was not any kind of signifier to a relationship between time periods. Nothing is really 'equal', the only way to measure it is through linear time and the characters consciousnesses.

[msmith92]

if dan would have cut des' finger off. at what point would it appear missing to desmond?

[Jaystar™]

I guess we also need to ask.."what did dan read in his book that would suggest banging on the hatch and speaking to des would even work?".

It was obviously the note that Dan wrote about Desmond being his Constant.

[littleredman]

if dan would have cut des' finger off. at what point would it appear missing to desmond?

Surely the instant he cut it off - and he would have changed time from that very moment on to incorporate the missing finger.

Therefore, if Desmond really is 'special' and his timeline can somehow be altered, he should have ALWAYS had the information that Faraday gave him since the moment they met.

[msmith92]

Surely the instant he cut it off - and he would have changed time from that very moment on to incorporate the missing finger.

Therefore, if Desmond really is 'special' and his timeline can somehow be altered, he should have ALWAYS had the information that Faraday gave him since the moment they met.

It was always with desmond. But daniel had to turn it on like a light switch. Then and only then at that moment desmond's memory was awakened.

and for that reason it was instantaneous. Daniel knew that.

[littleredman]

But it wasn't instantaneous - it was years apart!

It was only instantaneous in our minds because of the way the show is constructed and edited!

[msmith92]

Surely the instant he cut it off - and he would have changed time from that very moment on to incorporate the missing finger.

Therefore, if Desmond really is 'special' and his timeline can somehow be altered, he should have ALWAYS had the information that Faraday gave him since the moment they met.

Scenario:

Desmond 2006 has ten fingers.

Daniel 2008 travels back in time to when Desmond was born and removes one finger.

Did Desmond ever have ten fingers?

[ortrules]

It was always with desmond. But daniel had to turn it on like a light switch. Then and only then at that moment desmond's memory was awakened.

and for that reason it was instantaneous. Daniel knew that.

I don't think you're understanding the point.

Dan talks to Desmond sometime around 2001-2004. Desmond doesn't remember this "new memory" until sometime in 2008.

If Dan truly changed Desmond's past/future, then Desmond should have known the minute he left the island that he needed to find Dan's mother. But that didn't happen. It took Desmond 4-7 years to remember talking to Dan outside the hatch.

[msmith92]

But it wasn't instantaneous - it was years apart!

It was only instantaneous in our minds because of the way the show is constructed and edited!

It was instantaneous to Daniel otherwise he wouldn't have tried to contact him.

To him, the knowledge was given with the understanding that at that moment in the future it would be awakened.

[littleredman]

Scenario:

Desmond 2006 has ten fingers.

Daniel 2008 travels back in time to when Desmond was born and removes one finger.

Did Desmond ever have ten fingers?

I don't know. What do you think?

[msmith92]

I don't think you're understanding the point.

Dan talks to Desmond sometime around 2001-2004. Desmond doesn't remember this "new memory" until sometime in 2008.

If Dan truly changed Desmond's past/future, then Desmond should have known the minute he left the island that he needed to find Dan's mother. But that didn't happen. It took Desmond 4-7 years to remember talking to Dan outside the hatch.

Is it possible to have 2 Desmond's?

We know locke had the ability to go see himself but didn't. So, you're both right. Desmond of the past did live his life this way but Desmond that we know just realized it.

[ortrules]

Is it possible to have 2 Desmond's?

We know locke had the ability to go see himself but didn't. So, you're both right. Desmond of the past did live his life this way but Desmond that we know just realized it.

I believe that it's just as simple as Desmond honestly not remembering this memory until a certain point. Whether it was the island controlling his memory to get him back to LA at the right time or some side effect of time travel, he didn't remember it.

I think a lot of people have been thrown off by seeing Dan talking to Desmond outside the hatch and the immediate cut to Desmond waking up remembering the event. They are forgetting that it has been years since Dan and Desmond discussed that.

[littleredman]

Here's a random theory I just thought of.

Perhaps it has something to do with the same principles that sent Ben three years into the future? Either there is an intrinsic connection between certain points in time or Desmond's memory somehow 'leaped' into the future.

I've got no idea, just thinking out loud and throwing ideas out there.

[notsolost42]

I believe that it's just as simple as Desmond honestly not remembering this memory until a certain point. Whether it was the island controlling his memory to get him back to LA at the right time or some side effect of time travel, he didn't remember it.

I think a lot of people have been thrown off by seeing Dan talking to Desmond outside the hatch and the immediate cut to Desmond waking up remembering the event. They are forgetting that it has been years since Dan and Desmond discussed that.

But Ort, if you have parallel timelines (for your sake we'll say linear :p for now) and Dan knocks on the hatch door in pre 2004 and Desmond awakens with the memory in 2007 it's because it did just happen. It just happened in the parallel timeline. I think you kind of got the idea, right? It's not an old memory, it's more like a 'new' old memory. I think things may possibly be unfolding like that. Don't forget, the real world time is different. I think there are two timelines because of this.

[littleredman]

Time 'working in different' ways may have something to do with it, but how are the two events running parallel to one another?

[notsolost42]

Time 'working in different' ways may have something to do with it, but how are the two events running parallel to one another?

Island time and real world time. Two parallel time lines. Real world time continues moving forward as normal. Island time is still jumping around. Think of two horses at a race. They are running neck and neck. Then all of a sudden, one speeds up and pulls forward. Then, he slows down and falls behind. One horse has been running at the same pace. The one running at the same pace is real world time. The horse racing forward and slowing down is the island time. Does that help at all?

[littleredman]

Island time and real world time. Two parallel time lines. Real world time continues moving forward as normal. Island time is still jumping around. Think of two horses at a race. They are running neck and neck. Then all of a sudden, one speeds up and pulls forward. Then, he slows down and falls behind. One horse has been running at the same pace. The one running at the same pace is real world time. The horse racing forward and slowing down is the island time. Does that help at all?

I see what you are saying, but there is still no parallel connection between the moment Faraday contacted Des pre-2004 and the moment Des woke up with the memory in the present day.

There are two ways to consider things as being 'parallel':

1) Actual linear time. In this situation they were not parallel because Faraday contacted Des before 2004 and Des woke up with the memory in 2008.

2) The characters consciousnesses. Again, these are three years apart. To Faraday, the Oceanic 6 just left the island. To Des, it happened three years ago.

The two events are in no way parallel. At least not from the way I percieve it.

Am I actually the only one confused by this? I seem to have a firm grasp of what is going on in the show, but this just doesn't make sense to me (yet).

[notsolost42]

I see what you are saying, but there is still no parallel connection between the moment Faraday contacted Des pre-2004 and the moment Des woke up with the memory in the present day.

There are two ways to consider things as being 'parallel':

1) Actual linear time. In this situation they were not parallel because Faraday contacted Des before 2004 and Des woke up with the memory in 2008.

2) The characters consciousnesses. Again, these are three years apart. To Faraday, the Oceanic 6 just left the island. To Des, it happened three years ago.

The two events are in no way parallel. At least not from the way I percieve it.

Am I actually the only one confused by this? I seem to have a firm grasp of what is going on in the show, but this just doesn't make sense to me (yet).

IDK. I've read lot's and lot's of sci-fi in my life and have a crazy imagination. That coupled with the fact that I get quantum physics theory can be dangerous! LOL!!! So, in my mind, I can see it as a parallel. There are two different timelines occuring at the same time. One timeline doesn't happen in any relative order, island time. The other one, the real world time, happens as time always does. They are just occuring next to each other, in a manner of speaking, in the universe. At that 70th hour in real world time, the parallel timeline will basically intersect and it will be the only time they can cross over and meet.

[ortrules]

(for your sake we'll say linear :p for now).

Then I accept your statement of defeat and apology. :D

But seriously. I still don't think this is right. I see what you're saying and everything, but there is a 4-7 year difference between Desmond meeting Dan outside the hatch and Desmond waking up with the memory. I just don't see why the island is suddenly running parallel with 2008 time when it is really just a few days past early 2005 on the island.

[notsolost42]

Then I accept your statement of defeat and apology. :D

But seriously. I still don't think this is right. I see what you're saying and everything, but there is a 4-7 year difference between Desmond meeting Dan outside the hatch and Desmond waking up with the memory. I just don't see why the island is suddenly running parallel with 2008 time when it is really just a few days past early 2005 on the island.

First, I'll ignore that remark! LOL!!
Well, like I said, it's either that or our poor losties have been time jumping for all those years! I don't think so because at that same moment Mrs. Hawking has calculated the probability of when the island will be "close enough" to stop it. That being the 70 hours. Remember I said I figured out what she was writing on the black board and what the pendulum is and what it does. With that information she is able to calculate the earths rotation, gravitaion, etc. and the probability of when it will be at the closest point. It's kind of when the sun is at the closest point to the earth at the equinox, I believe. Or, how NASA has to calculate when Mars will be at the closest orbital point for the Rover or whatever to land on it at a certain time in the future. You know, when it gets there in seven months. So, the island time and the real world time are different. It's happening on the island back in whenever but in the real world timeline it just happened and Desmond remembers it. I don't really believe that those poor guys are running around spacetime for over 3 years!

[ortrules]

Or, how NASA has to calculate when Mars will be at the closest orbital point for the Rover or whatever to land on it at a certain time in the future. You know, when it gets there in seven months. So, the island time and the real world time are different.

Right, but this is different. When the island gets to the future 2008 date that the O'6 live in, I believe the island gets there by simply "flashing" and jumping into the future. I don't think it's that they've been time traveling for 3 years, I believe the island is just going to jump there. Then when the O'6 return they will have stories about how they lived life for 3 years and those left behind will say "3 years? It's only been 3 days since you left" or something like that.

[dazedandconfused]

I think the memory was instantaneous. Faraday and the gang have been bouncing around in time for 3 years. He then gave Desmond the memory in the island's past but it was Des' present. if that makes sense to everyone?

[ortrules]

I think the memory was instantaneous. Faraday and the gang have been bouncing around in time for 3 years. He then gave Desmond the memory in the island's past but it was Des' present. if that makes sense to everyone?

Dan and the others still on the island in 2005, just a few days after Ben turned the wheel. Desmond suddenly remembered the memory 3 years later in 2008. That's not instantaneous.

[DharmaRecruit44]

Think about in "Back to the Future" with the people disappearing/reappearing in the picture. Space/time is not linear and if you don't think of it that way, it makes things easier.

[ortrules]

Think about in "Back to the Future" with the people disappearing/reappearing in the picture. Space/time is not linear and if you don't think of it that way, it makes things easier.

That's completely different though. If Marty's parents didn't get together he would disappear because he would have never been born. That is not the same case with Desmond and Dan.

Here is the timeline:

Between 2001 and 2004 Dan meets Desmond at the hatch and says "find my mother"
2004 Flight 815 crashes
Early 2005 Ben turns the wheel and Desmond gets off the island with the O'6.
Sometime around 2008 Desmond wakes up after remembering his conversation with Dan.


Time on the island is around 2005 a few days after Ben turned the wheel. Desmond wakes up with this memory in 2008-ish. These timelines are not running parallel in any way, so it doesn't make sense for Desmond to suddenly wake up with a new memory planted in his head from something that happened 4-7 years ago. Instead, he always "remembered" it but that memory wasn't triggered until 2008.

[littleredman]

Ort: I'm glad someone else understands what I'm trying to get at!

[islander]

I'm not yet sure about alternate/parallel timelines, but if I were, I'd argue the timelines are NOT parallel - Mrs. Hawking is looking for the point where they intersect, and there's probably only one point where they intersect based on her concern about missiing that moment.

[natego]

I really don't understand the confusion here.. The bottom line is time passes differently on the island and and the outside world. What seems like 2 days on the island could be weeks off island. Everyone should rewatch "The Constant". When Desmond passes out, he tells Daniel he was in the future for 5 minutes and Daniel tells him he was out for an hour or more. So, if something happens on the island in what seems like 2 days, it is possible that it is happening in line with "3 years later" off-island. Time is passing at a different rate! For this reason, I believe the memory was instantaneous. Something that "happened 4-7 years ago" on-island cannot be expected to line up perfectly with what time is doing off-island.

I think notsolost is most correct .. 70 hours is when the two timelines lock in again which is why it is their only chance to get to the island..

[abcd1234]

Desmond time travelling is different then the 06, because he entered his own body in the past, and his conscienceness left his body from 2004.

While I agree there are time anomalies on the island, 3 weeks to 3 years seems a stretch.

[jasonm222]

Everything that is thought to be known about time travel is of course just speculation. i think daniel faraday is just playing with the so called laws. As a pioneer of time travel and being someone who has devoted his life to the theory, who better to actually experiment with the possibilities is there, than daniel. it was a stab in the dark so to speak.

[islander]

Everything that is thought to be known about time travel is of course just speculation. i think daniel faraday is just playing with the so called laws. As a pioneer of time travel and being someone who has devoted his life to the theory, who better to actually experiment with the possibilities is there, than daniel. it was a stab in the dark so to speak.

And, I think when he was pounding on the hatch door, Dan speculated that Des would be able to move along the single timeline or move between the two timelines depending on your preferred theory.

[notsolost42]

I really don't understand the confusion here.. The bottom line is time passes differently on the island and and the outside world. What seems like 2 days on the island could be weeks off island. Everyone should rewatch "The Constant". When Desmond passes out, he tells Daniel he was in the future for 5 minutes and Daniel tells him he was out for an hour or more. So, if something happens on the island in what seems like 2 days, it is possible that it is happening in line with "3 years later" off-island. Time is passing at a different rate! For this reason, I believe the memory was instantaneous. Something that "happened 4-7 years ago" on-island cannot be expected to line up perfectly with what time is doing off-island.

I think notsolost is most correct .. 70 hours is when the two timelines lock in again which is why it is their only chance to get to the island..

Thank you! You understand exactly what I am saying! TPTB have said on numerous occasions that time on the island is different. Well folks, here it is! Wake up and smell the coffee! Morning on the island is not the same as morning in the real world.
One little long ago missed point that may also show this...in an episode early in season 1 and it's only days since the crash. They suddenly are forced to move down the beach. Jack is quoted as saying he has never seen anything like it. The speed at which the tide is coming in and rising and the waves. Something very much along those lines. I have thought ever since then, that definitely was a huge clue as to time passing on the island. Don't forget that the tide is connected to the earth's gravity and both have to do with time in relationship to the speed of light.

[losttime]

OK so I am going to give this a go. Up until that point it had not happened yet. Faraday had skipped back in time after that time had already occured so Desmond would have not known about it until the time skip occurred. So when Faraday did confront him, it planted the seed in Desmond's mind at that time. For example. Say all day long you were sitting in your house and no one came to visit you. By the end of the day your memory is just of that. But lets say 3 weeks later someone was able to go back in time to the middle of that day and visit you and tell you to do something. Now it is the new memory of that day to you and you will recall it at that time but it will be 3 weeks later when the perosn was able to go back in time. That is why Desmond wakes up thinking about it than. I hope that helps some.

[notsolost42]

OK so I am going to give this a go. Up until that point it had not happened yet. Faraday had skipped back in time after that time had already occured so Desmond would have not known about it until the time skip occurred. So when Faraday did confront him, it planted the seed in Desmond's mind at that time. For example. Say all day long you were sitting in your house and no one came to visit you. By the end of the day your memory is just of that. But lets say 3 weeks later someone was able to go back in time to the middle of that day and visit you and tell you to do something. Now it is the new memory of that day to you and you will recall it at that time but it will be 3 weeks later when the perosn was able to go back in time. That is why Desmond wakes up thinking about it than. I hope that helps some.

That's exactly what I've been saying. You may have been more clear about than I was! Good job! That's why there are two timelines going on! Real world and island world.

[littleredman]

Erm... I don't see how the difference between 'real time' and 'island time' is relevent here at all. Simply because that theory would imply that Desmond actually somehow existed in two places at once.

We have followed Desmond's story right through the show, and we know what happened to him between the scene at the hatch and the scene with him waking up. They are not happening at the 'same time', whatever difference there might be with island time and real time.


And losttime, sorry, I don't agree. That theory would work if Daniel and the others started time travelling the moment Desmond woke up with the memory, but they didn't. They were bouncing around three years before that.

[notsolost42]

Erm... I don't see how the difference between 'real time' and 'island time' is relevent here at all. Simply because that theory would imply that Desmond actually somehow existed in two places at once.

We have followed Desmond's story right through the show, and we know what happened to him between the scene at the hatch and the scene with him waking up. They are not happening at the 'same time', whatever difference there might be with island time and real time.


And losttime, sorry, I don't agree. That theory would work if Daniel and the others started time travelling the moment Desmond woke up with the memory, but they didn't. They were bouncing around three years before that.

Hon, when the Swan imploded Desmond's consciousness took a trip through time. That means that he existed both on the island as a corpse or comatose looking thing and in the time he went to, which was basically England and his apartment with Penny, etc. The same thing happened when Des went to visit Faraday in Oxford. His consciousness traveled while his body remained limp and lifeless on the helicopter or freighter or wherever he was. That's what happened to Minkowski and Rebecca. It was their consciousness traveling.
As far as the losties now on the island, it is the island that is traveling in spacetime. It is dragging them along with it because they are on it. The island is traveling through spacetime at a different speed than the real world time is ticking. That is why it seems to be just days on the island as they time jump between flashes and years in the real world. The poor losties have not been time jumping for three years. Well, not in island time. If it really is an island. Which, it is not.

[littleredman]

Hon, when the Swan imploded Desmond's consciousness took a trip through time. That means that he existed both on the island as a corpse or comatose looking thing and in the time he went to, which was basically England and his apartment with Penny, etc. The same thing happened when Des went to visit Faraday in Oxford. His consciousness traveled while his body remained limp and lifeless on the helicopter or freighter or wherever he was. That's what happened to Minkowski and Rebecca. It was their consciousness traveling.
As far as the losties now on the island, it is the island that is traveling in spacetime. It is dragging them along with it because they are on it. The island is traveling through spacetime at a different speed than the real world time is ticking. That is why it seems to be just days on the island as they time jump between flashes and years in the real world. The poor losties have not been time jumping for three years. Well, not in island time. If it really is an island. Which, it is not.

I just don't think it even makes a difference whether they've been jumping around in time for three years in real time or not. That's still got nothing to do with the fact Desmond learned the information years before he remembered it.

[notsolost42]

I just don't think it even makes a difference whether they've been jumping around in time for three years in real time or not. That's still got nothing to do with the fact Desmond learned the information years before he remembered it.

You miss the entire point....

[littleredman]

You miss the entire point....

I really don't think I do. I understand the fact that island time and real time are different, and I understand the fact that characters consciousnesses can travel through time.

But the FACT is that Daniel knocked on that door YEARS before Desmond had a memory of it. Why? It doesn't MATTER what is happening in time. If Faraday changed time, then Desmond should have had the knowledge of that encounter all the way through the show so far.

Bends in time and people mind's jumping back and forth doesn't explain why it took years for Desmond to remember it.

There is NO relationship in time between the two events. They did not happen at the 'same time', or 'instantaneously'. How could they?

[notsolost42]

I really don't think I do. I understand the fact that island time and real time are different, and I understand the fact that characters consciousnesses can travel through time.

But the FACT is that Daniel knocked on that door YEARS before Desmond had a memory of it. Why? It doesn't MATTER what is happening in time. If Faraday changed time, then Desmond should have had the knowledge of that encounter all the way through the show so far.

Bends in time and people mind's jumping back and forth doesn't explain why it took years for Desmond to remember it.

There is NO relationship in time between the two events. They did not happen at the 'same time', or 'instantaneously'. How could they?

I'm sorry you don't get it. Don't worry. :)

[natego]

Oh man, how are you not getting what we're saying????

It DID NOT happen 3 years before. Time was moving differently. Let's say someone in Boston talks to someone in Japan. They are talking at the same time to each other, but its Friday in Japan and Thursday in Boston. Now, let's say time moved faster in Japan then in Boston.. 5 days later in Boston time you talk to the person in Japan.. It could be 1 year later for them in Japan when you are talking to them, but you are still talking to each other at the same time!! Does my analogy make any sense? Even I'M Not sure !!

LOL!

[notsolost42]

Oh man, how are you not getting what we're saying????

It DID NOT happen 3 years before. Time was moving differently. Let's say someone in Boston talks to someone in Japan. They are talking at the same time to each other, but its Friday in Japan and Thursday in Boston. Now, let's say time moved faster in Japan then in Boston.. 5 days later in Boston time you talk to the person in Japan.. It could be 1 year later for them in Japan when you are talking to them, but you are still talking to each other at the same time!! Does my analogy make any sense? Even I'M Not sure !!

LOL!

How about this to make it simple.
One person is in Japan, across the date line, on the telephone at 2 p.m. on a Tuesday. They are speaking with someone else on the other side of the dateline in, let's say Des Moine, Iowa, and it's still Monday and it's 11 a.m. (I don't know what the time zones actually are so don't take the time literally) The person in Japan tells the person in Iowa a big, life changing secret...ah, they just won a million bucks. Well, the person in Japan knew about it after the person in Iowa and yet they knew first!
How's that? Clearer?

[littleredman]

Oh man, how are you not getting what we're saying????

It DID NOT happen 3 years before. Time was moving differently. Let's say someone in Boston talks to someone in Japan. They are talking at the same time to each other, but its Friday in Japan and Thursday in Boston. Now, let's say time moved faster in Japan then in Boston.. 5 days later in Boston time you talk to the person in Japan.. It could be 1 year later for them in Japan when you are talking to them, but you are still talking to each other at the same time!! Does my analogy make any sense? Even I'M Not sure !!

LOL!

Look, I think I'm making a fairly valid point here so don't try and make out like I'm a complete idiot.

Your analogy would work if we were discussing the actual time shift between the island itself and the real world, IF THE ISLAND IS STILL IN THE PRESENT. But it isn't. It was sometime before 2004. So what's the link between 2004 and 2008? Those two events are not happening at the 'same time' at all.

[notsolost42]

No one called you an idiot. Don't be so touchy.

[littleredman]

No one called you an idiot. Don't be so touchy.

:) Okay man.

[losttime]

Erm... I don't see how the difference between 'real time' and 'island time' is relevent here at all. Simply because that theory would imply that Desmond actually somehow existed in two places at once.

We have followed Desmond's story right through the show, and we know what happened to him between the scene at the hatch and the scene with him waking up. They are not happening at the 'same time', whatever difference there might be with island time and real time.


And losttime, sorry, I don't agree. That theory would work if Daniel and the others started time travelling the moment Desmond woke up with the memory, but they didn't. They were bouncing around three years before that.

Well you can disagree I am not here to say what I am saying is the the absolute correct answer but that is how I see it. But with regard to your rationale I dont understand. I am basing it on that this encounter with Desmond when he was still in the hatch seems to be the first time that Faraday encounters Desomd on the Island, it seems Desmond had a faint memory of Faraday when he came out of the hatch because he asked " Dont I know you" or something to that effect. But like I said you dont need to agree with what I said. its just my thought. Everyone on here has their own feeling on whats going on I was just voicing what I understand to be happening. Thats all

[littleredman]

Well you can disagree I am not here to say what I am saying is the the absolute correct answer but that is how I see it. But with regard to your rationale I dont understand. I am basing it on that this encounter with Desmond when he was still in the hatch seems to be the first time that Faraday encounters Desomd on the Island, it seems Desmond had a faint memory of Faraday when he came out of the hatch because he asked " Dont I know you" or something to that effect. But like I said you dont need to agree with what I said. its just my thought. Everyone on here has their own feeling on whats going on I was just voicing what I understand to be happening. Thats all

I'm sorry, I was just going to say the same thing. I do completely understand what you're saying I just don't feel as though it explains what's happening. It's just a difference of opinion I guess.

[losttime]

[QUOTE=littleredman;142915]I'm sorry, I was just going to say the same thing. I do completely understand what you're saying I just don't feel as though it explains what's happening. It's just a difference of opinion I guess.[/QUOTE


Well drop dead. LOL Just kidding. Its just what seemed to make sense to me in understanding why De only recounted the memory so many yrs later.

[littleredman]

[QUOTE=littleredman;142915]I'm sorry, I was just going to say the same thing. I do completely understand what you're saying I just don't feel as though it explains what's happening. It's just a difference of opinion I guess.[/QUOTE


Well drop dead. LOL Just kidding. Its just what seemed to make sense to me in understanding why De only recounted the memory so many yrs later.

I think it might make sense but it just didn't strike me that there was any relationship between the two events. When Desmond was jumping through time, there was a bond between the two time periods because we knew Desmond was leaping back and forth but that didn't seem to be the case here...

[littleredman]

This is copied directly from Lostpedia and it kind of proves that there is no real definitive answer on this (and that I am not insane), but it does offer some interesting ideas.




Desmond and Faraday

* Faraday contacted Desmond through the front door of the hatch. While this did not happen in Desmond's original timeline, Faraday must be aware (as he tells Desmond so) that Desmond is special. Turning the key and exploding the Swan gave Desmond the power to make a new string in time. When Faraday contacts Desmond, Desmond remembers the contact in his sleep that day, because his past has been altered, and the update has trickled through to his consciousness (somewhat like the time-shifting properties of the movie "Frequency," which happens to star the actress who plays Juliet)

o We didn't see it in Desmond's original time line because at that time, this meeting had not taken place ... until now. The reason Desmond does not recognize Faraday is because Desmond (according to his own timeline) had not met Faraday yet. That Desmond is pre-crash Desmond, and he doesn't meet Faraday until post-crash when he starts time-jumping. Faraday knows Desmond, because Desmond time-jumped to Faraday's past and they met there.
+ I kept thinking "in the future, the past has occurred" throughout this whole sequence. Strangely, it sort of explains the logic here.

o Further, because Desmond is Faraday's constant, there is a linear connection between the two characters' time lines regardless of how each individual is subjectively experiencing time/time travel. Even though Faraday is jumping around backwards and forward through time while Desmond is three years into Faraday's subjective future from when the Island moved, they have an absolutely linear connection in their individual personal time lines. That is why Desmond "dreams" about this change in reality immediately after Faraday tampers with the time line (from the perspective of the viewer of the show).

+ Though it is possible that Desmond merely forgot about the meeting with Faraday. It was at least three or four years before his "dream," and lasted only a minute or so. Also, Faraday disappeared into thin air after confusing Desmond. It's possible Desmond dismissed the entire encounter and then only remembered it after his dream.

+ It is possible that an event involving two people, even one in "the past" doesn't actually register with any person involved as "having happened" until it happens in both person's timelines. Therefore since it hadn't happened yet in Faraday's timeline until now, Desmond wouldn't register this memory until now.

+ The Losties still on the Island are in an unstuck time. "the present", from their perspective (when they would be if they weren't flashing) acts like a mirror, so anything that happens to change the past during one of the flashes (e.g., Faraday contacting Desmond at the hatch) won't register in Desmond's timeline until that many years in the future. So, if Faraday's conversation with Desmond happened in Faraday's present, but the Island's 3-years-ago, then Desmond won't dream/remember it until 3-years-after. So I'm guessing the conversation was roughly 3 years prior, not long after Desmond had joined Kelvin.

[losttime]

[QUOTE=losttime;142917]

I think it might make sense but it just didn't strike me that there was any relationship between the two events. When Desmond was jumping through time, there was a bond between the two time periods because we knew Desmond was leaping back and forth but that didn't seem to be the case here...

yea the only thing I can say about this was the first time it was Desmond's consciousness going between 1996(i think) and the present day(whatever the hell that means on this show lol) now it is actually a time skipping of all the losties on the island and the people on the island at the time of the time skip OH god now I have a nose-bleed

[easterbeast]

well they said on a few occasions that you cant change anything..........whatever happens happens......so when faraday spoke to des in the past, it was to alter the present.
my guess is that faraday could not cut des's finger off.he would have failed

[ortrules]

I really don't understand the confusion here.. The bottom line is time passes differently on the island and and the outside world. What seems like 2 days on the island could be weeks off island. Everyone should rewatch "The Constant". When Desmond passes out, he tells Daniel he was in the future for 5 minutes and Daniel tells him he was out for an hour or more. So, if something happens on the island in what seems like 2 days, it is possible that it is happening in line with "3 years later" off-island. Time is passing at a different rate! For this reason, I believe the memory was instantaneous. Something that "happened 4-7 years ago" on-island cannot be expected to line up perfectly with what time is doing off-island.

This is completely wrong. Island time is slightly different than off-island time, but it is not this drastic.

Look at Alex, she was born sometime in 1988 and aged to a normal 16 year old by the time Flight 815 crashed in 2004. In the constant episode they were on the island for 90-some days, putting them in the end of December. Then we found out that it was Christmas Eve when they got to the freighter.

While there could be a few hours difference, or a few days, it does not acount for 4-7 years since Dan and Desmond spoke.

[SchoolLakePrincess]

I had the same questions. My solution - Desmond's past doesn't change until the Time Traveling Losties bring the new past forward to the timeline.

The Losties are transported back in time and Faraday changes the past by talking to Desmond. This is now part of these Losties' past, however, the past for Desmond is set at least up to when the wheel is turned. Desmond's timeline moves forward from there without any changes to his past until the Losties emerge bringing Desmond's changed past with them.

This means that the Losties don't exist on the timeline for the 3 or so years between Ben turning the wheel and Desmond getting his memory.

I believe Desmond's new memory coincides with the Losties finding the outrigger canoes at the dilapidated camp.

Remember, this only pertains to Faraday changing Desmond's past. Otherwise, what happens always happened.