Charles Widmore's New Memory!

[Sox1Series]

Desmond woke up in 2008 with a new memory about Daniel giving him the message outside the hatch about tracking down his mother. So would it also make sense that Charles Widmore would wake up at some point with the new memory (albeit distant memory) of meeting John Locke at the tent when he was a young man and hearing John telling Richard that he was sent by Jacob and that he wouldn't be born until 1954?

Thoughts???

[agmic]

ummmm, does Widmore know about Locke ?

[coolforSawyer]

I've thought the same thing, maybe the since the Losties are going through this again is what sparks the memory of it happening in the past.

[Sox1Series]

ummmm, does Widmore know about Locke ?

Back at the camp in the 1950's, John Locke turned to him and said "are you Charles Widmore?" I guess what you're asking is, was it relevent enought for Widmore to remember? I would think Widmore's entire experience of chasing the losties and almost getting killed before escaping back to the camp probably would have left an impression. Especially if he heard John tell Richard he was sent by Jacob.

[Lieutenant Dan]

Very possible.

If the new "memory burn" of the past into Widmore's mind is similar to Desmond's, than yea that would make sense.

But I would think Widmore would be less likely to remember such a thing, since it took place a lot further in the past, and he's also a geriatric.

[msmith92]

Who is john's constant? If it's W. I'd say there's a very slight possibility, but not likely.

[XmasDVD]

Desmond was explicitly told to remember the meeting with Daniel.
Whidmore just 'met' Locke.

I would not expect him to remember anyone - especially 50 years later.

[Beckstabber]

I thought the reason Desmond remembered was because he was "special" and immune to the rules of time travel. I don't think Widmore is so it would make sense that he didn't remember.

[littleredman]

Widmore won't have a new memory, because nothing changed. Locke and Widmore ALWAYS met in 1954.

[msmith92]

I thought the reason Desmond remembered was because he was "special" and immune to the rules of time travel. I don't think Widmore is so it would make sense that he didn't remember.

I second this.

[persistentlylost]

I don't think memories are implanted in other people like they are in Desmond. The exchange with Richard, Locke and Widmore happened in the past. Nothing changed. We know that because Richard shows up at John's birth and later tests him with the compass John gave him. Desmond's encounter with Daniel was new. They changed the past.

So Widmore knows about John, Daniel Faraday, Miles and Charlotte. He always has. That is why he sent Abaddon to visit John in the hospital.

[Sox1Series]

Widmore won't have a new memory, because nothing changed. Locke and Widmore ALWAYS met in 1954.

I don't know what you're talking about. Do you mean Locke and 'Richard' (not Widmore??)?

[Sox1Series]

I second this.

I don't. Richard remembered the encounter with Locke in 1952 which is why he showed up at the hospital in 1954 when Locke was born. (sorry, my dates may be off a bit). But I guess you'll counter with "Richard is special too", which is true, but nobody said that Desmond will remember 'because' he is special. I still think new memories will exist for all, including blondie who was guarding Daniel at the bomb. And yes, she probably is Daniel's mother.

[Lieutenant Dan]

I don't think memories are implanted in other people like they are in Desmond. The exchange with Richard, Locke and Widmore happened in the past. Nothing changed. We know that because Richard shows up at John's birth and later tests him with the compass John gave him. Desmond's encounter with Daniel was new. They changed the past.

So Widmore knows about John, Daniel Faraday, Miles and Charlotte. He always has. That is why he sent Abaddon to visit John in the hospital.

I think you're right about the implanted memories.

But the thing about Widmore knowing about John, Daniel, Miles, and Charlotte cannot work because it leads to a paradox..

The idea that Widmore caused Daniel, Miles, and Charlotte to go to the island and Daniel, Miles, and Charlotte caused Widmore to find them to go to the island doesn't work because it's an endless cycle.

[agmic]

Widmore won't have a new memory, because nothing changed. Locke and Widmore ALWAYS met in 1954.

"always", Locke was born in 1956. How did they alwaya met.....

[islander]

If people visited you and told you they were from the future and then they vanished in front of your eyes, I think they'd make an impression on you. If Ellie is Mrs. Hawking, they made an impression on her, and for a dweeb like Widmore in 1954 to be Charles Widmore, master of the universe in 2006, it seems they made an impression on him. Also, Richard 'remembered' to visit John Locke's birth so they made an impression on him. I think the Losties' visit to the Others in 1954 was remembered by Ellie, Richard and Widmore, at least.

[Sox1Series]

If people visited you and told you they were from the future and then they vanished in front of your eyes, I think they'd make an impression on you. If Ellie is Mrs. Hawking, they made an impression on her, and for a dweeb like Widmore in 1954 to be Charles Widmore, master of the universe in 2006, it seems they made an impression on him. Also, Richard 'remembered' to visit John Locke's birth so they made an impression on him. I think the Losties' visit to the Others in 1954 was remembered by Ellie, Richard and Widmore, at least.

Well said - I agree completely.

[littleredman]

I don't know what you're talking about. Do you mean Locke and 'Richard' (not Widmore??)?

No, I mean Widmore. Locke and Widmore met in 1954 at the Others' camp.

"always", Locke was born in 1956. How did they alwaya met.....

In the linear timeline, Locke met Widmore and Richard in 1954 during his jump back in time.

[Beckstabber]

I don't. Richard remembered the encounter with Locke in 1952 which is why he showed up at the hospital in 1954 when Locke was born. (sorry, my dates may be off a bit). But I guess you'll counter with "Richard is special too", which is true, but nobody said that Desmond will remember 'because' he is special. I still think new memories will exist for all, including blondie who was guarding Daniel at the bomb. And yes, she probably is Daniel's mother.

You have a point. Maybe Faraday isn't telling the truth when he says you can't change the future?

[persistentlylost]

I think you're right about the implanted memories.

But the thing about Widmore knowing about John, Daniel, Miles, and Charlotte cannot work because it leads to a paradox..

The idea that Widmore caused Daniel, Miles, and Charlotte to go to the island and Daniel, Miles, and Charlotte caused Widmore to find them to go to the island doesn't work because it's an endless cycle.

I agree that this creates a cycle. I disagree that it doesn't work for that reason. There are many endless cycles on this show. Arguably, if Ellie is Daniel's mother, he studies time travel because he met her in the past and put it in her mind that it was possible. John was named the leader because he told Richard in the past that he was the leader...so Richard followed him throughout life. The compass seems to be in an endless timeloop from 1952 to 2005. I doubt it existed before or after these times.

It reminds me of Terminator. John Connor would not have trained his whole life to lead the humans against the machines if a machine had not traveled back in time to kill him. The machines affected their own demise by trying to change history.

Widmore in 2004 knows that he loses the island to Ben and Richard. He also knows that Miles, Daniel and Charlotte time travel on the island. Given his resources and drive to get the island back, wouldn't he find those people, recruit them, and get them to do something to help him get the island back? He financed Daniels experiments. Why else would he do that? And if someone were financing your experiments in time travel, it is not hard to imagine that your repayment is to do that person's bidding when you travel to the past.

[Foro777]

How are time loops a paradox? A paradox is if I go back in time and kill my grandfather, then how can I go back in time and kill my grandfather because I was never born. The loop works. They're not changing the past, they've always been goin in the past. It's like in the 3rd Harry Potter book, he goes back in time because he needs to save people, but in the "present" they were already saved by his "past" self. It's just a loop destined to repeat. Faraday and Desmond was time changing, but Locke has ALWAYS met Widmore and Richard in 1954. And by the way, Widmore never saw Miles, Charlotte, or Dan in the past because Dan was with Ellie and the others were in the tent.

[greatgodone]

widmore sees daniel when he first gets back to the camp after he escapes from locke. he arrives in camp as elle is taking daniel to jughead. plus you have to emagine that richard and widmore talk about them

[Doc]

I agree that Widmore always had the memory of Locke in 54. He became fully aware of the existence of time travel and the incredible power of the island. Desmond and possibly Farraday can potentially change things; however, Mrs. Hawkings warned Desmond of course-correction. When describing course-correction to Desmond, she said the man in the red shoes would die some way or another should they intercede. But what happens when they delay his death for a day, and in that extra day of life, he impregnates someone. There still has to be course-correction; however it becomes much more complex. That is what is happening now, a massive course-correction. Consider all the things Charlie did because Desmond delayed his death.

[natego]

What about this.. In "The Shape of Things To Come" when Ben stalks into Widmore's bedroom, Widmore says something about "nightmares". Perhaps these nightmares were of things happening to him in the past done to him by Locke, Sawyer, etc. (i.e. taking him prisoner in the woods, etc.)

So... if this were true, then they ARE changing Widmore's memories in the future. It is very possible the flashes back to 1954 were occuring just before the time when the conversation between Ben and Widmore occurred.

[Lieutenant Dan]

I agree that this creates a cycle. I disagree that it doesn't work for that reason...

Widmore in 2004 knows that he loses the island to Ben and Richard. He also knows that Miles, Daniel and Charlotte time travel on the island. Given his resources and drive to get the island back, wouldn't he find those people, recruit them, and get them to do something to help him get the island back? He financed Daniels experiments. Why else would he do that? And if someone were financing your experiments in time travel, it is not hard to imagine that your repayment is to do that person's bidding when you travel to the past.

Right. Widmore would have to send them back to the island because his past was altered. I guess the whole idea of A causing B, and B causing A might be possible if multiple strings of time exist on the island specifically for the "special" people aka John and Desmond.

I would think that its possible that they wrote the meeting of Jack and Widmore in the show because we will find out that Widmore is a "special" one as well.

[natego]

If my theory regarding Widmore's nightmares is true, then he would be one of the "special" ones.. (i.e. memories can be changed from the past..etc.)

[Pung]

I'm not sure if Widmore's interaction with John sent memories to future Widmore. I think this had always happened to Widmore in 54 and he has carried these memories with him his entire life. I don't think anything that has happened in the flashes so far has "changed" history, these things have always occurred in the past.* The only exception to this being Dan and Des' chat outside the hatch.

This is something that "changed" past events, but apparently is ok because Des is special. I can accept this notion, but my only argument with it is that it seems that Desmond would have had this recollection shortly after leaving the island with Penny, not 3 years later. Eventhough Dan & crew went back in time and Dan spoke with Des, their relative timeline would have put Desmond on the Searcher with the O6 only a day or two after the island moved.

If Widmore was receiving memories from the past, it seems that he too would have recalled them around the same time as Ben turning the wheel and not at the time the O6 are trying to get back to the island.

[natego]

i hear ya.. at the same time though, we haven't seen everything yet that happens to Widmore on the island while they are jumping through time. It is possible the "nightmares" refer to scenes we haven't seen yet. It' still possible as far as I can see. There is also no proof that time is perfectly relative between on-island and off-island.

[Pung]

Very good point

[Simon Blackrock]

People, why did everyone over look the point stated earlier about Abbaddon sending John on his hunting trip in Australia!! Abbaddon obviously works for Widmore.He was the leader of Naomis team.He gave here the photos and info so for sure he works for Charles.
If Charles didnt also know about John from the past why would he have sent Abbaddon in the first place to meet John? This is exactly like the Richard thing with the compass,visiting John as a child.
These flashes are not changing anything, only explaining un explainable things that have happened already or are destined to happen.

[FredEx919]

People, why did everyone over look the point stated earlier about Abbaddon sending John on his hunting trip in Australia!! Abbaddon obviously works for Widmore.He was the leader of Naomis team.He gave here the photos and info so for sure he works for Charles.
If Charles didnt also know about John from the past why would he have sent Abbaddon in the first place to meet John? This is exactly like the Richard thing with the compass,visiting John as a child.
These flashes are not changing anything, only explaining un explainable things that have happened already or are destined to happen.


Good point Simon. Even though it has not been confirmed who Abbaddon is working for, This sounds about right to me. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Abbaddon was "The Economist".

[Simon Blackrock]

oh good one Fred!! He very well maybe the economist.I'd say that is a good theory, i never thought of that.

I know that it hasnt officially been said Abba works for Widmore , but him talking to Naomi about the team( Daniel, Miles etc.) gave a very good clue i think.