Ben vs Widmore

[ortrules]

Let the great debate continue. It has long been debated who is good and who is bad between these two. Or, if you rather, who is the lesser of two evils. This episode only further increased that tension between the two sides.

I have long maintained that Widmore always got a bad rep and is truly the "good guy" and tonight seemed to reaffirm that. Others will still disagree.

So everyone, have at it!

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

Ort... oh, Ort.... tch tch... will we ever learn?? It was necessary that Ben kill John.

[boutte]

Ort... oh, Ort.... tch tch... will we ever learn?? It was necessary that Ben kill John.
OMG Locke!

[ortrules]

Ort... oh, Ort.... tch tch... will we ever learn?? It was necessary that Ben kill John.

I know you're in love with Ben so I'll just ignore this. :p

I don't see why Ben had to kill Locke. If Locke was going to hang himself, doesn't that get the job done?

[MrEchoLives]

The lines are REAAALLLYYY blurry now. But i think that Ben is pure evil. So i give the benefit of the doubt to Widmore. But there is the possibility that they are both no good and thats why they are both not going to be allowed back on the island.
But the bottom line is , I havent seen widmore kill anyone. He sent a team to the island to get Ben, but we dont know if he was going to kill innocent people or not....But Ben has killed people in cold blood.Numerous people. Thats pretty bad

[b-rod]

OMG Locke!

Ohh please !! It was nesessary that ben kill locke?? Are u fokin kidding me? Be serious come on

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

OMG Locke!

LOL, Boutte!!

I know you're in love with Ben so I'll just ignore this. :p

I don't see why Ben had to kill Locke. If Locke was going to hang himself, doesn't that get the job done?

well, didn't you just answer your own question, Ort? ...I mean, right.. just WHY wouldn't Ben figure John hanging HIMSELF would just get the job done?
There MUST have been a reason, and I think maybe that reason had something to do with Mrs. Hawking... btw, you have a PM but maybe it's not necessary to respond now. thanks anyway, Ort.

[LostLate]

The lines are REAAALLLYYY blurry now. But i think that Ben is pure evil. So i give the benefit of the doubt to Widmore. But there is the possibility that they are both no good and thats why they are both not going to be allowed back on the island.
But the bottom line is , I havent seen widmore kill anyone. He sent a team to the island to get Ben, but we dont know if he was going to kill innocent people or not....But Ben has killed people in cold blood.Numerous people. Thats pretty bad

When Ben said the people from the freighter were going to kill everyone on the island, once they had him, none of them ever denied it.

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

And, maybe this should be a diff thread, but did anyone else think there was something really really amiss with the timeline here? I got very confused when Ben said Jack booked a ticket... what?? that night??? how could that be when Ben was talking to ALIVE John right then and yet Jack was seen in other epi reading the obit from his car with his beard...

THEN..... Ben ended up looking exactly the same after the crash at the end as he did BEFORE he boarded the plane and was on the cell with Jack....
What's with that??? someone???

[b-rod]

Finally some people here are starting to open their eyes about ben... Thank god ! Well its about f'nn time you opened yours eyes about ben!! Exept for those 2 or 3 people you know who you are.. That keep defending him.

Widmore is the one who helps locke to get to everybody...
Passport ,money their where abouts everything. Meanwhile what's ben doing? Using sayid to do his dirty work that's it.

[LostLate]

And, maybe this should be a diff thread, but did anyone else think there was something really really amiss with the timeline here? I got very confused when Ben said Jack booked a ticket... what?? that night??? how could that be when Ben was talking to ALIVE John right then and yet Jack was seen in other epi reading the obit from his car with his beard...

THEN..... Ben ended up looking exactly the same after the crash at the end as he did BEFORE he boarded the plane and was on the cell with Jack....
What's with that??? someone???

That was how Jack started. Remember when he first meets Kate outside the airport, and it's told how he's been taking different flights hoping to crash.

Not sure what you're talking about on the Ben thing.

[toomanyquestions]

Idk who to trust! I know Ben can't be trusted, but to what length CAN he be trusted? Widmore I'm just not sure about. He seems trustworthy, but if he cared about John that must, he wouldn''t send the fratier to take ben and kill everyone else. Also Widmore says "the island was his, it will be again", but why is he saying "your their leader, John"? Someone help me understand!

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

That was how Jack started. Remember when he first meets Kate outside the airport, and it's told how he's been taking different flights hoping to crash.

Not sure what you're talking about on the Ben thing.

Oh! ok! But about Ben... I mean, how come Ben has the shirt all dirtied and face and hair exactly the same AFTER he's crashed and sleeping in that room full of injured peeps, as when he called Jack from his cell phone saying he'd been detained?
He was cleaned up on the plane...now he looks precisely and I mean PRECISELY as he did on the cell phone... make up person just not feeling creative or did Ben do a bit of time jumping again?

[Unbridled Pageantry]

That was how Jack started. Remember when he first meets Kate outside the airport, and it's told how he's been taking different flights hoping to crash.

Not sure what you're talking about on the Ben thing.


I think what Lockeing is saying is that if John was killed the day that Jack stubble was thick. He was dead an awfully long time for Jack's beard to grow to the thicket that it became.

Correct me if I'm wrong. :)

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

Idk who to trust! I know Ben can't be trusted, but to what length CAN he be trusted? Widmore I'm just not sure about. He seems trustworthy, but if he cared about John that must, he wouldn''t send the fratier to take ben and kill everyone else. Also Widmore says "the island was his, it will be again", but why is he saying "your their leader, John"? Someone help me understand!

He's using John to regain his power/position. Poor John has always been the sucker and Widmore is doing it yet again...but there are those who would say the same about Ben so...IDK

[boutte]

Oh! ok! But about Ben... I mean, how come Ben has the shirt all dirtied and face and hair exactly the same AFTER he's crashed and sleeping in that room full of injured peeps, as when he called Jack from his cell phone saying he'd been detained?
He was cleaned up on the plane...now he looks precisely and I mean PRECISELY as he did on the cell phone... make up person just not feeling creative or did Ben do a bit of time jumping again?

Well he was in a plane crash. I didn't notice the clothes he was wearing.

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

I think what Lockeing is saying is that if John was killed the day that Jack stubble was thick. He was dead an awfully long time for Jack's beard to grow to the thicket that it became.

Correct me if I'm wrong. :)

Thanks, Unbridled, but I guess I had not accounted for the fact that Jack did, indeed, book multiple tickets on flights ... Maybe Ben wasn't referring to this last one as he spoke to John. It threw me a tad.

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

Ohh please !! It was nesessary that ben kill locke?? Are u fokin kidding me? Be serious come on

**hits self in head**
OMG! WHAT AM I DOING OVER HERE?!?!?! AND ....WITH YOUUUUU???!!!!
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL (hello, Mr. B:p)

[toomanyquestions]

He's using John to regain his power/position. Poor John has always been the sucker and Widmore is doing it yet again...but there are those who would say the same about Ben so...IDK

GAH! POOR LOCKE!!! when he started breaking down crying I was like, wrong person to cry to! but it was very emotional.

Anyways, as Widmore says "a war is coming". both Ben and Widmore's sides seem too complicated and selfish to side with. the Losties will play a big role in this "war"... but on whose side? Maybe they'll work on their own or side with someone other than the two known parties... Jacob, perhaps?

[SkippingInTime]

I think they are both evil and both using the survivors. The survivors are pretty much screwed either way...

This episode does not do much to change that view. They both seem to have hidden agendas and neither seem to favor the survivors...

[Brother Desmond]

And, maybe this should be a diff thread, but did anyone else think there was something really really amiss with the timeline here? I got very confused when Ben said Jack booked a ticket... what?? that night??? how could that be when Ben was talking to ALIVE John right then and yet Jack was seen in other epi reading the obit from his car with his beard...

Ben didn't mean Jack bought a ticket for Ajira 316. He meant that Jack had bought a ticket for a flight from LA to Sydney. The same flight path that found the Island for them in the first place. To Ben this signified Jack was already trying to go back, and with Jack on board with the plan, soon everyone would be willing to go back.

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

I think they are both evil and both using the survivors. The survivors are pretty much screwed either way...

This episode does not do much to change that view. They both seem to have hidden agendas and neither seem to favor the survivors...

That could be absolutely true.......BUT......I believe we have to ask ourselves the real question...... just WHAT is it that each party is really doing that they both think the other is dead wrong and "BAD"??? Their ultimate purpose, I mean... whatever it is, saving the world or what, it's a biggie! And both think the means justify the ends. or the ends justify the means...LOL

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

Ben didn't mean Jack bought a ticket for Ajira 316. He meant that Jack had bought a ticket for a flight from LA to Sydney. The same flight path that found the Island for them in the first place. To Ben this signified Jack was already trying to go back, and with Jack on board with the plan, soon everyone would be willing to go back.

Thanks, BroDes, I think my head is clearing with that question. I appreciate it. Yeah, that makes sense. :)

[Brother Desmond]

Thanks, BroDes, I think my head is clearing with that question. I appreciate it. Yeah, that makes sense. :)

And as for your question about Ben, at the end of the episode, he was already banged up before he crashed. When John saw Ben, Ceasar had said that this was the injured group. He was probably even more injured when the plane went down, making him look like he did when he made the phone call to Jack.

[SkippingInTime]

That could be absolutely true.......BUT......I believe we have to ask ourselves the real question...... just WHAT is it that each party is really doing that they both think the other is dead wrong and "BAD"??? Their ultimate purpose, I mean... whatever it is, saving the world or what, it's a biggie! And both think the means justify the ends. or the ends justify the means...LOL

That's what I am waiting to see. What ARE their motives? So far both haven't really been open to explaining. I guess some point lost fans may have to pick their side, whether they trust Windmore or Ben. Right now I don't trust either. I think the only reason why they seem to help the survivors at times is because they have a vested interest in helping and keeping those alive that will help them get to their means.

That's why I thought Ben was interested in saving Locke's life. But once Locke uttered about Eloise, then suddenly something changed... I'm guessing he found out that someone else has the favor and it is not him.


Edit:

Here's another one for thought: What if both were leaders of the island at the same place and time, because of the time traveling and alterations in time it made.. But since only one can be the true time, then that means both will be at war to alter time to fit their favor... The Oceanic survivors just happen to be tools to get to their means...

[hondo987]

I believe, and its only a belief, that the episode (can't remember which one) where jack continues to fly (on his free lifetime tickets) began after Locke came to see him. Jack did begin to have a beard when Locke arrived and he had a beard when he was constantly flying back and forth. At that point, when jack had the full beard and drunk on the plane I believe Locke was dead.

[bchartash]

The Island said that ben is bad. Christian/Jacob said to Locke since when has anything ben done been any good. Now Ben has tried to kill Locke twice how could he be good. Go Widmore Go.

[alec76]

maybe ben has to kill locke three times before he belives he's the true leader lol

Anyway would like to have seen ben lift john locke in the suicide becasue last timne i check JL is no spring chicken lol

[bunnydixon]

*links arms with lockeing*

okay - here is the way i see it :D

ben misunderstood what locke is doing. locke tells ben he is a failure so perhaps ben either thinks locke is giving up or he thinks widmore has manipulated locke into killing himself so that he can be rid of him (another threat to widmore). however, during their conversation locke said something to ben (the jin conversation and the hawkings comment in particular) which made something click and things seem a little clearer to ben and the truth is that locke was killing himself because he HAD to, not because he wanted to.

However, he has just stood there and talked him down - how the hall can he turn round and say 'sorry john, my bad....get on back up there'? so he does it for him. caught unawares, over in less than a minute - he was helping john!

[abcd1234]

is this a thread arguing whether ben is a good guy or not? are you insane?

[bunnydixon]

is this a thread arguing whether ben is a good guy or not? are you insane?

i dont think its as simple as that and yes :D

[abcd1234]

fair enough. but could you tell me anything at all ben did ever in any episode that was good? because I cant think of anything. and after last episode he is pretty much a blatant evil villain

[bunnydixon]

fair enough. but could you tell me anything at all ben did ever in any episode that was good? because I cant think of anything. and after last episode he is pretty much a blatant evil villain

well...its all down to perception i guess ;) which is why its not as simple as good guy/bad guy.

if it was that would make widmore the good guy right? yet.....does he seem so good to you?

[Chicagoish]

There was lots of talk about Bentham vs. Locke the Philosophers. Bentham is a Utilitarian (good is what is best for the many, and the ends justify the means.) Perhaps we don't fully know the end game, so we can't judge Ben yet by his means.

[abcd1234]

why does it have to be one or the other? just because ben is totally evil, doesnt mean widmore has to be good.

now here is real speculation: hmm widmore seems to be a decent guy, but why would he send the freighter to kill everyone

here is ridiculous speculation: hmm ben seems to be completely self serving, and now he has strangled locke to death...hmm well he must have a reason. he rules

[bunnydixon]

why does it have to be one or the other? just because ben is totally evil, doesnt mean widmore has to be good.

now here is real speculation: hmm widmore seems to be a decent guy, but why would he send the freighter to kill everyone

here is ridiculous speculation: hmm ben seems to be completely self serving, and now he has strangled locke to death...hmm well he must have a reason. he rules

exactly - its not as simple as black and white ;)

did widmore send the frieghter to kill everyone? and of course ben had some kind of reason.

[loadclr]

why does it have to be one or the other? just because ben is totally evil, doesnt mean widmore has to be good.

now here is real speculation: hmm widmore seems to be a decent guy, but why would he send the freighter to kill everyone

here is ridiculous speculation: hmm ben seems to be completely self serving, and now he has strangled locke to death...hmm well he must have a reason. he rules

The freighter was not sent to kll everyone... It was sent to kill/remove Ben.

Secondary Protocol was: torch the island if Ben could not be taken...

I guess you could call it collateral damage

[abcd1234]

widmore may or may not be bad. Im leaning towards somewhat bad

ben is definately bad

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

There was lots of talk about Bentham vs. Locke the Philosophers. Bentham is a Utilitarian (good is what is best for the many, and the ends justify the means.) Perhaps we don't fully know the end game, so we can't judge Ben yet by his means.

Thank you for that simple and direct state of things, Chicagoish. (or is there just something in the water here in Chicago? heehee)
And also Bunny. Thank you for your benefit of the doubt as well.
I totally agree.

[ortrules]

Even though I side more with Widmore, I do like playing both sides, so here goes:

Why Ben is not good: Jacob said "help me" to Locke when Ben and Locke visited the first time. It seems that Jacob doesn't like Ben. Richard has also mentioned that Ben spent too much time dealing with the island pregnancy issue when he should be focused on more important information. Ben is seriously threatened by Locke's rise to power.

Why Widmore is not good: He sent the freighter. Regardless of how you look at it, he seemed to have no problem with possibly carrying through with the secondary objective of "torching the island". Even if this meant killing everyone, Widmore seemed willing to do it. However, Widmore seemed less concerned about Locke's rise to power - but we can't say for sure how genuine he was.

The argument for why they are good guys is similar. That everything they do is for protection of the island. We can all make somewhat justifiable reasons for Ben killing Locke or for Widmore torching the island, but it all comes down to protection of the island as they see it.

Now, the argument is not that necessarily one side has to be good and one has to be bad, I made it fairly clear in my original post that one could just be the lesser of two evils. But either way, we can all be sure that war is breaking out between Ben and Widmore and our Losties will get stuck in the middle. I think it's just fun to debate this subject as it really can go either way.

[Lost in VA]

*links arms with lockeing*

okay - here is the way i see it :D

ben misunderstood what locke is doing. locke tells ben he is a failure so perhaps ben either thinks locke is giving up or he thinks widmore has manipulated locke into killing himself so that he can be rid of him (another threat to widmore). however, during their conversation locke said something to ben (the jin conversation and the hawkings comment in particular) which made something click and things seem a little clearer to ben and the truth is that locke was killing himself because he HAD to, not because he wanted to.

However, he has just stood there and talked him down - how the hall can he turn round and say 'sorry john, my bad....get on back up there'? so he does it for him. caught unawares, over in less than a minute - he was helping john!

I like your thought process here, but dang, the brutality in the way Ben killed him, just seemed liked he had no soul. And while I've never liked Ben (sorry Bunny & Lockeing) I really hated the guy when he strangled Locke.

[bunnydixon]

I like your thought process here, but dang, the brutality in the way Ben killed him, just seemed liked he had no soul. And while I've never liked Ben (sorry Bunny & Lockeing) I really hated the guy when he strangled Locke.

he looked...pained....

[Mr. Muggles]

The lines are REAAALLLYYY blurry now. But i think that Ben is pure evil. So i give the benefit of the doubt to Widmore. But there is the possibility that they are both no good and thats why they are both not going to be allowed back on the island.
But the bottom line is , I havent seen widmore kill anyone. He sent a team to the island to get Ben, but we dont know if he was going to kill innocent people or not....But Ben has killed people in cold blood.Numerous people. Thats pretty bad



Agreed. Both characters appear to be evil when talking to Jack, Kate, Sayid, Desmond, etc... but they both agree that Locke is special and he especially belongs on the island. If anything, they both see him as a tool to accomplish whatever their goal is.


Though I don't think the battle is not only between Charles and Ben. I also think that the battle is between Jacob, Claire and Christian.

[ortrules]

I posted this elsewhere, but I think it belongs as part of this discussion as well.

I am theorizing that when Ben said whoever moved the island could never return was only telling the half truth. The full truth is that whoever moves the island can come back, but they need the new leader of the island to get them back. Widmore says Ben tricked him into leaving the island - we assume by turning the wheel - so this would lead to why Widmore is so adamant about getting to Ben. He needed Ben to be able to get back to the island.

However, now that Locke is the leader, Widmore set up the camera in Tunisia to track when the leader gets off the island. This way, he can use the new leader to get himself back to the island. Ben is also looking for Locke because he needs Locke to get him back to this island.

It seems both Widmore and Ben may be using Locke as a pawn in this whole thing. Poor Locke.

[bunnydixon]

they are definitely using him - he has been through so much! yet he never gives up.

[huntsy7]

I posted this elsewhere, but I think it belongs as part of this discussion as well.

I am theorizing that when Ben said whoever moved the island could never return was only telling the half truth. The full truth is that whoever moves the island can come back, but they need the new leader of the island to get them back. Widmore says Ben tricked him into leaving the island - we assume by turning the wheel - so this would lead to why Widmore is so adamant about getting to Ben. He needed Ben to be able to get back to the island.

However, now that Locke is the leader, Widmore set up the camera in Tunisia to track when the leader gets off the island. This way, he can use the new leader to get himself back to the island. Ben is also looking for Locke because he needs Locke to get him back to this island.

It seems both Widmore and Ben may be using Locke as a pawn in this whole thing. Poor Locke.

So by using this theory that would mean Widmore followed them all back to the island, right?

[littlemelody86]

Not that I'm trying to support Ben or anything because personally I think he is an evil bastard but it has not been proven the Christian is Jacob or is even working for Jacob. Mostly everyone is depending on the theory that Christian was in that well because Jacob wanted him to be or that he is Jacob in the first place. I don't know about you but every time they show Christian I get a weird feeling in my gut. Seems like he may be a little misleading too. Jacob says help me....Who do you see the next time in the cabin. Christian. But I would say on what we have seen so far Ben is definately more evil. I don't care how pained he looked when he was killing Locke he still did it.

[Brother Desmond]

So by using this theory that would mean Widmore followed them all back to the island, right?

I don't think Widmore himself followed them to the Island. I think the new character Ceaser is working for Widmore. Charles couldn't go himself because he didn't have Locke put on the plane, Ben did. So Widmore planted someone on the plane because he himself couldn't go.

[abcd1234]

there is no proof they have done anything to protect the island. people keep saying you cant judge ben yet, you cant blah blah blah but no one can name anything the guy has done that is good. he lies consistantly to everyone, he is a backstabber, a murder, he holds people against their will - i just dont see this angle of him somehow being justified in his actions

[luckyducky]

First time poster, but I don't think this has been mentioned. Ben had to kill Locke because Locke couldn't kill himself. The same way Michael kept trying and failing. Anyway that Locke would have tried, he would have failed, so Ben did what he had to do and it worked. I don't think he's necessarily evil...just a sneaky little bugger.

[bunnydixon]

hahahaha thats the best description i've heard for him yet :D

[abcd1234]

why wouldnt locke be able to kill himself when the island told him he had to die? and adding to the fact ben begged locke not to kill himself and then as soon as he heard the info he needed he strangled him to death. 3 minutes later!

[bunnydixon]

the island never told him he had to die...richard did.

[5starboss]

widmore may or may not be bad. Im leaning towards somewhat bad

ben is definately bad

buck fen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[abcd1234]

so richard is a liar? ben is the hero and richard is the liar?

fine.


then I think hurley is behind the whole thing. he is evil and glorious ben will kill him in next years finale

[bunnydixon]

why would richard be lying?

[abcd1234]

hes not. you implied he was

[bunnydixon]

no i never - i only said that it was he who said locke needed to die, not the island.

[abcd1234]

well, who would have told him that?

[bunnydixon]

who tells them anything that they seem to know?

[Brother Desmond]

why wouldnt locke be able to kill himself when the island told him he had to die? and adding to the fact ben begged locke not to kill himself and then as soon as he heard the info he needed he strangled him to death. 3 minutes later!

I think Ben killed Locke when he found out that John knew who Eloise Hawking was, and that she could get them back to the Island. If John already knew of the person who could get them back to the Island, and Jack was already convinced to go back and would begin to convince everyone else to go back, Ben wouldn't be needed for anything.

By killing John, Ben put himself in the position where if people wanted to go back to the Island, they would have to go through him, which in turn would give him the opportunity to go back with them.