How do i know Widmore is Evil...

[LOSTonTHEroad]

Because he is lying to john about being tricked by ben (and himself turning TDW). How have i come to this astounding conclusion you ask... well lets look at the evidence. Ben turns TDW and happens to come across some camel loving warriors. (they may have been CW's men, but there is no supporting evidence) Ben kills them, then there is evidence of the exit spot.... where widmore then puts up a security camera.... After Ben escapes.... Wouldn't Widmore have done it before ben left the island if he really knew the location of the exit landing.?

[a_number_not_a_name]

Because he is lying to john about being tricked by ben (and himself turning TDW). How have i come to this astounding conclusion you ask... well lets look at the evidence. Ben turns TDW and happens to come across some camel loving warriors. (they may have been CW's men, but there is no supporting evidence) Ben kills them, then there is evidence of the exit spot.... where widmore then puts up a security camera.... After Ben escapes.... Wouldn't Widmore have done it before ben left the island if he really knew the location of the exit landing.?
I, too, have wondered why Widmore wasn't watching the spot before Ben turned the wheel if Widmore had done the same thing years earlier. However, he might not have expected anyone else to turn the wheel, and given Ben's obsession with the island, he certainly wouldn't have expected Ben to voluntarily exile himself. However, once Ben turns up off the island, Widmore might decide to see who else shows up. Still, you are right to ask why Widmore only started watching the exit after Ben turned the wheel if he, himself got off the island the same way. The trouble is, if Widmore only found out where the exit was because of Ben, then he wouldn't have known the exact spot. He might have had a pretty good guess because Ben turned up in Tunisia, but he had cameras watching one exact location. That suggests he knew the exact spot because he, too, woke up there.

[JfromtheD]

We know Tunisia is the place of exit.
But maybe the true exit point is at a certain time.

Ben just got spit out at a random time, because he wasn't supposed to turn it... John popped out at the real exit point/time.

[LOSTonTHEroad]

But if CW got kicked pre 2000 there should have been a camera ready for BEN, regardless of the time they pop out, the location seems to be A fixed point.

[a_number_not_a_name]

We know Tunisia is the place of exit.
But maybe the true exit point is at a certain time.

Ben just got spit out at a random time, because he wasn't supposed to turn it... John popped out at the real exit point/time.
If that were the case, then everybody who has ever or will ever turn the wheel would have woken up with Locke at the same time and place. Locke was alone. The exit sends people to the same place, but some time into the future, probably just whenever the island wants them to be.

[a_number_not_a_name]

But if CW got kicked pre 2000 there should have been a camera ready for BEN, regardless of the time they pop out, the location seems to be A fixed point.
If Widmore didn't think anyone would turn the wheel again, there would be no reason to watch the spot. He certainly wouldn't have expected Ben to turn the wheel, but the fact that Ben turned the wheel may have made Widmore decide to start watching the spot.

[LissaMarie]

Here's the thing....

BEN said that whoever turns the wheel cannot come back to the island but that obviously isn't the case. Both he and Locke have returned to the island. He didn't exile himself from the island at all. He was lying, per usual, when he said that.

My thinking is that, if the cameras weren't installed before Ben left and went to Tunisia, perhaps Widmore installed the cameras after Ben went to visit him in his bedroom in the middle of the night.

[JfromtheD]

I didn't think about the whole 'everybody arriving at once' thing.

Oh well... so much for that, huh?!? :o :D

[a_number_not_a_name]

Here's the thing....

BEN said that whoever turns the wheel cannot come back to the island but that obviously isn't the case. Both he and Locke have returned to the island. He didn't exile himself from the island at all. He was lying, per usual, when he said that.

My thinking is that, if the cameras weren't installed before Ben left and went to Tunisia, perhaps Widmore installed the cameras after Ben went to visit him in his bedroom in the middle of the night.
The permanent exile thing is obviously wrong. However, Ben had to cheat to get back. He knew the island wanted the Oceanic 6 back, so by getting on the same plane as them, he found a loophole. Locke was dead.

One minor point to consider: Locke and Ben are actually probably on the smaller island. The Dharma office that Cesar found had files with the Hydra logo on it. Hydra station wasn't on the main island. Also, the plane looked like it was it pretty good condition, as though it actually managed to land, at least roughly. The Others were building a landing strip on the small island. I think Lapidus (maybe we should call him Sully...) managed to land on that strip on the smaller island, so technically, Locke and Ben aren't on the island. Just a thought...

[LissaMarie]

The permanent exile thing is obviously wrong. However, Ben had to cheat to get back. He knew the island wanted the Oceanic 6 back, so by getting on the same plane as them, he found a loophole. Locke was dead.

One minor point to consider: Locke and Ben are actually probably on the smaller island. The Dharma office that Cesar found had files with the Hydra logo on it. Hydra station wasn't on the main island. Also, the plane looked like it was it pretty good condition, as though it actually managed to land, at least roughly. The Others were building a landing strip on the small island. I think Lapidus (maybe we should call him Sully...) managed to land on that strip on the smaller island, so technically, Locke and Ben aren't on the island. Just a thought...

True that they're not on THE island yet but the 2 islands seem to be a set as they have moved together. Wouldn't it be interesting if they weren't able to make it to the big island? I really can't imagine that happening in terms of the plot of this show but you never know. Still, Ben cheating his way back onto the island doesn't mean too much in terms of his original claim that whoever turns the wheel can't return. If the island wouldn't let Michael's gun go off in order to kill himself how could the island let the Ajira plane land with someone who was permanently exiled aboard?

[tpbaxter]

True that they're not on THE island yet but the 2 islands seem to be a set as they have moved together. Wouldn't it be interesting if they weren't able to make it to the big island? I really can't imagine that happening in terms of the plot of this show but you never know. Still, Ben cheating his way back onto the island doesn't mean too much in terms of his original claim that whoever turns the wheel can't return. If the island wouldn't let Michael's gun go off in order to kill himself how could the island let the Ajira plane land with someone who was permanently exiled aboard?

The Island works in mysterious ways.

[Harpie]

Do we know for a fact that Charles turned the wheel? I'm not remembering him stating it.

[a_number_not_a_name]

True that they're not on THE island yet but the 2 islands seem to be a set as they have moved together. Wouldn't it be interesting if they weren't able to make it to the big island? I really can't imagine that happening in terms of the plot of this show but you never know. Still, Ben cheating his way back onto the island doesn't mean too much in terms of his original claim that whoever turns the wheel can't return. If the island wouldn't let Michael's gun go off in order to kill himself how could the island let the Ajira plane land with someone who was permanently exiled aboard?
I think it is quite possible that Ben will be stuck on the smaller island. Less likely for Locke.

However, the whole point of "cheating" is that Ben managed to break the rules. That's what cheating means. Ben is a smart, little weasel, and he gave the island a choice. It could keep him out, or it could get the Oceanic 6 back. It couldn't do both (unless the island found a loophole by exiling Ben to the secondary, small island).

[a_number_not_a_name]

Do we know for a fact that Charles turned the wheel? I'm not remembering him stating it.
He asked Locke if Ben tricked him into turning the wheel the way he (Ben) did to him (Widmore). So, Widmore implied that he had turned the wheel. Of course, I keep saying in another thread that Widmore lied about Ben tricking him into turning the wheel, so he could be lying about turning the wheel too. The question, then, is how he would know the precise location of the exit.

[wiley]

I think the spot where the wheel turner shows up WAS being watched by Widmore, That is why those two camel jockeys showed up. Ben was expecting them and we the audience just were not shown the cameras or whatever method was being used (could have binoculars or whatever).

[Harpie]

That's right.

So If we believe Charles, he would have know precisely where the exit was because he came through it.

Since it seems the cameras weren't up until after Ben arrived, it's logical to think that Charles is lying. It's possible that he was tricked by Ben, just in a different way.
Example: He left on the sub for whatever reason and then Ben had the polar bear turn the wheel. He would not know where/when they went so he was tricked off and couldn't get back. If Charles wasn't necessary to the island, there would be no time flashes.

Just an example, but it's all plausible. Could have turned the wheel, could have left voluntarily and then the island moved. Guess we have to wait and see...

[a_number_not_a_name]

That's right.

So If we believe Charles, he would have know precisely where the exit was because he came through it.

Since it seems the cameras weren't up until after Ben arrived, it's logical to think that Charles is lying. It's possible that he was tricked by Ben, just in a different way.
Example: He left on the sub for whatever reason and then Ben had the polar bear turn the wheel. He would not know where/when they went so he was tricked off and couldn't get back. If Charles wasn't necessary to the island, there would be no time flashes.

Just an example, but it's all plausible. Could have turned the wheel, could have left voluntarily and then the island moved. Guess we have to wait and see...
1) The condition of the Orchid station in 2004 suggests only that if Widmore turned the wheel, he must have done so pre-Dharma. If he left some other way, the condition of the Orchid says nothing about Widmore's timeline. However, the later Widmore leaves, the more of a problem that creates for Penny's timeline. I've been ranting about that on another thread.

2) However the polar bear got to Tunisia, it probably didn't turn the wheel. Aside from the absurdity of sending a bear to turn the wheel, and trying to figure out how to get the bear to do it, the bear wouldn't have been able to get to the wheel once the Orchid station was built. It is a funny image, though.

3) It is possible that Widmore knew where the exit was, but decided not to bother watching it until Ben showed up because he didn't think anybody else would be dumb enough to turn the wheel. Of course, once he decided to send Keamy to torch the island, he should have anticipated it as a possibility, and if he knew where the exit was, he should have watched it. So, he might just have made a mistake. Then again, maybe the writers just didn't think about it when they filmed Ben's arrival...

As for the people who attacked Ben and the apparent lack of cameras, Ben looked around as soon as he poofed into the desert, and there were no cameras. It was immediately obvious to Locke that he was surrounded by cameras, and there was a much more sophisticated operation to retrieve him than just two guys.

[Jeremy]

If Ben did trick Charles into turning the wheel, I think it could be possible that it was the middle-aged version of him that we see in the "present". Maybe he finds a way back to 1977 or whenever. I don't see Charles being tricked by a little kid.

That might make Charles' statement make more sense, about what he thinks Ben is. He would be a time traveler in his eyes, just like Locke.

[a_number_not_a_name]

If Ben did trick Charles into turning the wheel, I think it could be possible that it was the middle-aged version of him that we see in the "present". Maybe he finds a way back to 1977 or whenever. I don't see Charles being tricked by a little kid.

That might make Charles' statement make more sense, about what he thinks Ben is. He would be a time traveler in his eyes, just like Locke.
Widmore talked about protecting the island, and the Others being his people, even though he sent Keamy to kill everyone on the island. Widmore isn't exactly Honest Abe. So, why is everyone convinced that Widmore was telling the truth about having been tricked by Ben into turning the wheel? Ben isn't a time traveler, and he didn't pull one over on Widmore as a tweener. Widmore just lied because he wanted to convince Locke that Ben was their mutual enemey. Occam's razor.

[DeathMag84]

Right now with all the evidence we have to indicate who is good and who is bad, the arrow would have to point to Widmore. Ben has done nothing to really gain the trust of us fans. If you consider getting himself and Locke and Co. out of harms way via The Smoke Monster last season, that don't count becuase he was saving his own butt really not Locke and co. I really hope Damon & Carlton make it clear by or at the end of this season who is good and who is bad between Ben and Charles Widmore.

[Jeremy]

Widmore talked about protecting the island, and the Others being his people, even though he sent Keamy to kill everyone on the island. Widmore isn't exactly Honest Abe. So, why is everyone convinced that Widmore was telling the truth about having been tricked by Ben into turning the wheel? Ben isn't a time traveler, and he didn't pull one over on Widmore as a tweener. Widmore just lied because he wanted to convince Locke that Ben was their mutual enemey. Occam's razor.

I'm just saying it could be possible if he did indeed trick him. And even if it's Charles who turns out to be the bad guy, that doesn't mean Ben didn't trick him after all. Ben has always lied for what he believes is a good cause. At least, imo.

[a_number_not_a_name]

I'm just saying it could be possible if he did indeed trick him. And even if it's Charles who turns out to be the bad guy, that doesn't mean Ben didn't trick him after all. Ben has always lied for what he believes is a good cause. At least, imo.
Ben is pretty clearly a bad guy. He ordered the Others to raid the losties' camp, take the women, and kill all the men. He killed Keamy, knowing that it would kill everyone on the freighter. He set Goodwin up to die. Ben is a sick, little psychopath. Of course, he isn't pure evil. He actually did care about Alex, and he clearly thinks he is the good guy. However, in any objective sense, Ben is a bad guy. That doesn't mean Widmore is a good guy. When we first meet him, Widmore is a complete a**hole to Desmond, and really to Penny too. Then, he sends Keamy to kill everyone on the island. Two villains can be enemies, as in the case of Ben and Widmore. One of them may be worse than the other, but I'm not sure which.

However, I just don't buy that Ben travels back in time to trick Widmore into turning the wheel, then returns. That just doesn't seem to be how time travel works on the show. Desmond and Minkowski have their minds move through time, but not their bodies. Ben and Locke move a bit forward in time when they turn the wheel, but nobody steps into a wayback machine, picks a specific date, then returns. I'm not wedded to my theory, but I can't come up with a plausible scenario in which Ben actually does trick Widmore into turning the wheel.

[steedo79]

well i think this is what really happened. ben had already left the island, right, so remember when dan talked to des and then at that moment in des time he remembers that dan talked to him, so what im saying is when john locke say nice to meet ya to young CW it triggers a memory in old CW (which is after ben turns the wheel, so its to late) and so CW goes to the place he exited the island and sets up some cameras. and thats what happened.

[rainmandan]

ok i think widmore has had the cameras in this spot the whole time, before the first plane crash who wanted to leave the island? i dont think this wheel has been turned in a while so the exit hasnt been used 4 while and b4 locke blew up the submarine that was another way off the island. but as far as widmore being evil. ya i think their both evil, i feel that widmore is more powerful man then ben, but ben is a specailist at what he does whatever that is.

[wiley]

I don't know if he is evil or not. However unlike Ben who uses a lie or half truths to further his agenda, Widmore doesn't. If you remember when Locke talked to him the first time, when asked a question he didn't want to answer, he didn't say anything. Ben always has an answer (mostly lies and half truths I think).
Widmore seems to say what's on his mind. and if he wants to keep information to himself, he says nothing. There is a certain honor in this. I think he is a military man (that's how he got to the island, I believe). I also remember that he has a particular admiration for some naval captain or admiral.

[BigL5000]

Widmore is the bad guy by far. But Ben is not a good guy either.

[abcd1234]

widmore seems like a bad guy, but benis definatley a bad guy. why does everyone take his word for anything? (cant come back to the island if you turn the wheel)
also pennys mom could have left long before charles did. you cant play timeline there, especially is ben tricked him into doing it. if it was pre dharma ben wouldnt have been there

[losttime]

If that were the case, then everybody who has ever or will ever turn the wheel would have woken up with Locke at the same time and place. Locke was alone. The exit sends people to the same place, but some time into the future, probably just whenever the island wants them to be.

I know Ben lies quite often but I believed him when he said turning the wheel is a measure of last resprt because it is very unpredictable. That having been said, I dont think that the Island determines you "when" you arrive off the Island. the only thing certain is "where" because it is the portal for the Island when the wheel is turned.

[weldonryckman]

I think Ben is a good guy. If he's working with Richard, then he's good. As far as Ben lying about being exiled from the Island, I think he meant it was nearly impossible to return because it was hard to find it, not because the Island wouldn't allow him back.

[smthng2dowthlost]

[QUOTE=weldonryckman;165516]I think Ben is a good guy. If he's working with Richard, then he's good. QUOTE]

I don't think richard is that down with ben. He told locke to get sawyer to kill lockes father. I don't think ben knows about that. And richard talked about how ben was wasting the other's time with fertility issues, I think richard wants ben out he just needs someone else that can talk to jacob. I don't really think they are on the same team at least if you look deeper, meaning ben is evil. Just a theory.