The Purge = No More Births On The Island?

[NyLost607]

This is my first post so if this has come up a thousand times i apologize. Does anybody think that maybe when they released the chemicals in the purge that it somehow affected the ability to have a child fully develop on the island. after seeing juliet deliver the baby we know that it wasnt a problem till at least sometime after Dahrma got there.

[losttime]

This is my first post so if this has come up a thousand times i apologize. Does anybody think that maybe when they released the chemicals in the purge that it somehow affected the ability to have a child fully develop on the island. after seeing juliet deliver the baby we know that it wasnt a problem till at least sometime after Dahrma got there.

I think the problem is if you got pregnant on the Islnd because Claire gave birth to Aaron on the Island but was pregnant before coming to the Island.

[MrsBoone]

Did Ben do the purge knowing (or planning) no more NATIVE children would be born to the Island?

why?

[NyLost607]

Did Ben do the purge knowing (or planning) no more NATIVE children would be born to the Island?

why?

could def be possible. he has stated that he Always has a plan

[NyLost607]

I think the problem is if you got pregnant on the Islnd because Claire gave birth to Aaron on the Island but was pregnant before coming to the Island.

that is completely my point. Claire could give birth because the baby was almost fully developed when they crashed. i think it affects something during its development

[smthng2dowthlost]

Your probably right but technically the only ones we have seen or heard of with pregnancy problems are the others. Alex aaron and now whoever amy's baby is were born fine, maybe a little rocky but they survived. It might only be the others that have the problem. But if it's for everyone on the island your probably right that it had something to with the purge, or for all we know once you go in the temple you can't have kids.

[NyLost607]

Your probably right but technically the only ones we have seen or heard of with pregnancy problems are the others. Alex aaron and now whoever amy's baby is were born fine, maybe a little rocky but they survived. It might only be the others that have the problem. But if it's for everyone on the island your probably right that it had something to with the purge, or for all we know once you go in the temple you can't have kids.

i never thought about the temple. that would fit all the scenarios too. the idea of how sun got off the island in time is my biggest problem with my theory. sun must of gotten off before she reached the point of a problem and claire got to the island after? not really sure. just gonna throw that out there and see if anyone has any ideas

[smthng2dowthlost]

Yeah going by your theory I think sun wasn't pregnant enough and claire concieved off island

[a_number_not_a_name]

Rousseau had her baby on the island. She was pregnant long before arriving on the island, so that could be the reason Alex survived. However, it should also be noted that this was before the purge. Rousseau arrived on the island in 1988 (her message had been playing for 16 years when 815 crashed in 2004). That was four years before the purge (Horace's ghost told Locke that he had been dead for 12 years in 2004). The fact that the Others wanted Alex suggests that they were having problems with pregnancy themselves, which would mean that whatever makes pregnancy difficult started before the purge.

[MrsBoone]

... But he didn't plan on Aaron?

[Dreamingwolf]

I also agree that the problem is with the others themselves, not the island. I used to think that the healing property of the island treated the fetus as an infection, but with the birth of horaces boy I have to reconsider that.

[razonje]

I believe it has something to do with the timing on the island as the island is not on "real time"

[Dreamingwolf]

I believe it has something to do with the timing on the island as the island is not on "real time"

more likely that the others are not alive, still not sure how richard would fit in if that was the case but maybe he is the only one alive and he sure cant give birth.

[bunnydixon]

I believe it has something to do with the timing on the island as the island is not on "real time"

hmmm....if widmore did turn the wheel, was that around the time of the purge? could that have started to knock it off and since then the pregnancy issues began? because the problem hasnt been a permanent one as we saw last epi.

personally, i believe its related to the purge in some way. could it be to do with the chemicals released during it?

[abcd1234]

the 06 is going to be involved in "the incident" not the purge

[Webz]

I think that in some way maybe the others are mostly dead / resureccted in someway - as in the last episode a lot was spoken about the dead bodies such as " we must bury the body" - " how dead did you bury them" etc also it's strange that Richard asks for the Simons body - I think they take the bodies somewhere to be resureccted or something (this also fits with the egypt thing of life after death etc).

If this is the case it could somehow show how the others can not have kids ? as they are not 'fully alive' ??

Webz

[bunnydixon]

who the hall is simon? :p

but really - i agree with this death resurrection thing and all the dead body business just seemed to work with that.

i think something has happened to jacob mid resurrection or perhaps only the resurrected can see him? i know ben appears to have seen him (talking directly at him) which is interesting. has something happened to ben in the past? is this why he can travel freely from the island (i never really bought he couldnt come back).

[Webz]

Yea who is simon lol. I couldn't remember the guys name and havin to use my phone at the mo. But you get who i mean. I think the whole body stuff and askin for bodies, egypt etc means that some revival is 100% going on

[bunnydixon]

yeah i knew - im just teasing ya :p

all aboard the revival band wagon :D

[DNIYM]

I really like this line of thought....maybe The Others are an ageless cult that protects the Island but you must die to become immortal thru resurrection and Ben did that while Annie did not and now he's trying to go back in time to convince her to join him....

(not a chance this is right, i realize)...

[bunnydixon]

I really like this line of thought....maybe The Others are an ageless cult that protects the Island but you must die to become immortal thru resurrection and Ben did that while Annie did not and now he's trying to go back in time to convince her to join him....

(not a chance this is right, i realize)...

why not???

[Webz]

Admitidly i have not scanned the forums much this week i just find it strange the lack of talk on the whole buried bodies and asking for a dead mans body - the how deep did you bury them - it all seems huge to me

[[T]he[L]amppost]

I believe the reason people can not give birth has to do with the time loop theory;

www.timelooptheory.com/the_timeline.html

which basically explains the island being on a loop and atleast 4 years behind in time if not more. And it says in the theory that if the island is behind in time, your technically going back in time. And you can't give birth in a past time where no prior intity existed.

[bunnydixon]

there has been chat of it, but its all over an various threads lol!!

if it is true, and you remain at the age you were at the time of death and ben has indeed died and been resurrected, it would have had to have been fairly recently as he looks to be in his 40s. late 30s MAYBE. born in the early 60s, 815 crashed in 2004.....

[bunnydixon]

he[L]amppost;165641']I believe the reason people can not give birth has to do with the time loop theory;

www.timelooptheory.com/the_timeline.html

which basically explains the island being on a loop and atleast 4 years behind in time if not more. And it says in the theory that if the island is behind in time, your technically going back in time. And you can't give birth in a past time where no prior intity existed.


im about to dash out so not read it yet but will say, the pregnancy issue hasnt always been there. and the issue again is within pregnancy, not giving birth. women dont survive past their 2nd trimester. women who conceive off the island, can apparently give birth on it (rousseau and claire are evidence of this).

[[T]he[L]amppost]

the pregnancy issue hasnt always been there.

women dont survive past their 2nd trimester. women who conceive off the island, can apparently give birth on it (rousseau and claire are evidence of this).

Good point, but maybe the theory doesn't aply before or after the second trimester?

And the theory says it was Ben who set the island on loop after the purge. Which would explain how amy gave birth. Because it was before the loop.

[bunnydixon]

i never had a chance to read it...will give it a go now :)

[bunnydixon]

its really similar to something i read when i first joined this forum...wonder if its the same thing just tweaked to account for any new happenings.

[bunnydixon]

my first probem with the theory is that we saw richard in 1954 and he didnt seem to be aware of time travel (unless he was fibbing). now if he was born in 1970 he would already have had to time travelled to get back to 1954.

my second problem is the virus and cure...not really buying it, or alex living to be a religious zealot. that seems a bit random. dont think i can read on after that lol!!

not the same time loop theory as i thought but the general idea is very similar lol!

[Trumby]

I think we'll see that the birth problem is something that came about due to "the incident." Which I'm thinking our losties are going to have something to do with.

[Moxy]

Hi All
I think that the problem with women giving birth is something to do with the Purge. Amy was having problems was because of breech; occurs in alot of births and would be purely due to the baby's position, not anything developmental. Claire gave birth naturally, as did Rousseau. It must have released something into the environmental system which causes the problem
Mox

[bunnydixon]

Hi All
I think that the problem with women giving birth is something to do with the Purge. Amy was having problems was because of breech; occurs in alot of births and would be purely due to the baby's position, not anything developmental. Claire gave birth naturally, as did Rousseau. It must have released something into the environmental system which causes the problem
Mox

yeah i agree with you :)

[a_number_not_a_name]

The following scenario is more likely. One of the Dharma Initiative's experiments created the birth problems. This made the Others decide to abandon the truce, and kill all of the Dharma people.

Reasoning:

1) The Others were interested in kidnapping before the Purge. In 1988, they kidnapped Alex, four years before the purge. That suggests they were having problems with pregnancy before the purge.

2) The Others were clearly not remotely afraid of Dharma, but Dharma people were petrified of the Others. The Others could have strolled into the barracks and kidnapped any of the kids being raised by Dharma, but they didn't, at least early on. Why kidnap Alex in 1988, but let Dharma keep their kids in the 1970s? Perhaps something happened between 1977 and 1988 to make them unable to have kids.

3) Who broke the truce? Given how petrified the Dharma people were of the Others, it seems unlikely that they would do anything intentionally to break the truce, and I don't see Alpert suddenly deciding to kill off everyone in Dharma on a whim after letting them live on the island for twenty years. Whatever else Alpert is, he doesn't seem capricious. An accident seems like the most likely way for the truce to break, and if Dharma took away the Others' ability to have kids accidentally with one of their experiments, that would do it.

[Moxy]

Yes, fair point.

Equally, they could have kidnapped Alex as Rousseau didn't have "permission" from the Others to live there/not part of the same truce scenario as with Dharma.

Just a thought

[bunnydixon]

The following scenario is more likely. One of the Dharma Initiative's experiments created the birth problems. This made the Others decide to abandon the truce, and kill all of the Dharma people.

Reasoning:

1) The Others were interested in kidnapping before the Purge. In 1988, they kidnapped Alex, four years before the purge. That suggests they were having problems with pregnancy before the purge.

2) The Others were clearly not remotely afraid of Dharma, but Dharma people were petrified of the Others. The Others could have strolled into the barracks and kidnapped any of the kids being raised by Dharma, but they didn't, at least early on. Why kidnap Alex in 1988, but let Dharma keep their kids in the 1970s? Perhaps something happened between 1977 and 1988 to make them unable to have kids.

3) Who broke the truce? Given how petrified the Dharma people were of the Others, it seems unlikely that they would do anything intentionally to break the truce, and I don't see Alpert suddenly deciding to kill off everyone in Dharma on a whim after letting them live on the island for twenty years. Whatever else Alpert is, he doesn't seem capricious. An accident seems like the most likely way for the truce to break, and if Dharma took away the Others' ability to have kids accidentally with one of their experiments, that would do it.


perhaps alex was on jacobs list rather than they NEEDED to steal children as they couldnt have their own.

perhaps they cant have kids as they are all the walking dead ;) lol!

[a_number_not_a_name]

perhaps alex was on jacobs list rather than they NEEDED to steal children as they couldnt have their own.

perhaps they cant have kids as they are all the walking dead ;) lol!
Jacob came up with lists based on who was supposed to be a good person. The impression I got was that this was based on what they had done in their lives. Mikhail did the research to build files on everyone, and Jacob decided which people were good people. However, there is no way to do that for kids, but they always took the kids. For some reason, though, they didn't start taking kids until sometime between 1977 and 1988... Something having to do with kids changed between 1977 and 1988.

And enough of this walking dead stuff. They aren't walking dead. They're just resurrected cylons. And haven't you heard? We're all cylons. (Woo-hoo. Jump that shark, baby).

[bunnydixon]

how do you know they never took any before that? just because the DI still have kids walking around, doesn't mean they haven't taken any.

the kids on 815 were taken because they WERE on the list, not becuase they were kids.

[a_number_not_a_name]

how do you know they never took any before that? just because the DI still have kids walking around, doesn't mean they haven't taken any.

the kids on 815 were taken because they WERE on the list, not becuase they were kids.
They took the kids from the tail section before they had any lists. The lists were only for adults. They always took the kids, but only starting sometime between 1977 and 1988.

[bunnydixon]

how do you know this??

when ben and juliet are eating their meal together, juliet brings the children up (missing their mother etc...) and ben makes a reference to them being on jacobs list.

[a_number_not_a_name]

how do you know this??

when ben and juliet are eating their meal together, juliet brings the children up (missing their mother etc...) and ben makes a reference to them being on jacobs list.
I know this from the episode that covered what happened to the tailies before they captured Sawyer, Michael and Jin, and from Ana Lucia's description of the timeline in which people were taken. First, the Others took out the ones they thought were strongest to leave the tailies as defenseless as possible (Goodwin hinted at this to Ana Lucia). Then, they took the kids. Then, they waited quite a while before taking more people. That time lag is the time it took for Goodwin to tell the Others who survived among the tail section, have Mikhail research them, have Jacob make up the list, and get that list to Goodwin and the rest. They took the kids before they had a list because they always take the kids, but they took the kids from the tail section before it was even possible for Jacob to get a list to Goodwin.

[bunnydixon]

I know this from the episode that covered what happened to the tailies before they captured Sawyer, Michael and Jin, and from Ana Lucia's description of the timeline in which people were taken. First, the Others took out the ones they thought were strongest to leave the tailies as defenseless as possible (Goodwin hinted at this to Ana Lucia). Then, they took the kids. Then, they waited quite a while before taking more people. That time lag is the time it took for Goodwin to tell the Others who survived among the tail section, have Mikhail research them, have Jacob make up the list, and get that list to Goodwin and the rest. They took the kids before they had a list because they always take the kids, but they took the kids from the tail section before it was even possible for Jacob to get a list to Goodwin.


surely goodwin hinted at this (havent watched the ep for a long time so i'd really need to go back and watch it) in order to throw her off the scent. and also lostpedia mentions that ana lucia finds remains of a list and the childrens names are on it. also, why would ben say this to juliet? she is well aware of the issue so why lie to her about it?

[bunnydixon]

and clearly they never took the strongest, they left ecko and ana lucia lol!!!

[a_number_not_a_name]

surely goodwin hinted at this (havent watched the ep for a long time so i'd really need to go back and watch it) in order to throw her off the scent. and also lostpedia mentions that ana lucia finds remains of a list and the childrens names are on it. also, why would ben say this to juliet? she is well aware of the issue so why lie to her about it?
I took Goodwin's statement as the exact opposite. He told her exactly what was going on because he knew, and didn't think it would do any harm. The problem was that Ana Lucia's response was to ask why they didn't take Goodwin. That was when he knew he screwed up.

As for lists with the kids' names on them, they ALWAYS take the kids. Every single time. Hence, if they follow a list, kids will always be on the list. However, if there was a list with the kids' names on it (I don't remember it), it was a continuity error because the kids were taken before Goodwin got any lists. Add that to a long list of continuity errors.

[a_number_not_a_name]

and clearly they never took the strongest, they left ecko and ana lucia lol!!!
If you will recall, they TRIED to take Eko, but he killed two of them the first night. Apparently, Eko was even stronger than they thought, but given his background, if they had a list, there is no way in Hades that his name would have been on it. As for Ana Lucia, there is no way they could have known how bad-a** she was the first night. She was not a particularly large or muscular woman. Their mistake, but an understandable one.

[bunnydixon]

im not sure i am with you on this one 100% but i see where you are coming from. there is also that old thought that ALL children are pure and good (clearly not a parent who came up with that one ;))

[Freckles/Juliette]

I had assumed that Richard asked for Paul's body, so that he could bring it back to his people, as proof that justice had been done for the death of their 2 men. I also thought that when Horace asked Sawyer, "How well did you bury the bodies," he was asking to see if there was any hope that Richard and the Others would not find them.

[a_number_not_a_name]

im not sure i am with you on this one 100% but i see where you are coming from. there is also that old thought that ALL children are pure and good (clearly not a parent who came up with that one ;))
They might believe that about kids, but why not take the Dharma kids too, then?

On that note, does anyone wonder how many members of the DI they took the way they took Cindy?

[Chronos]

is this why he can travel freely from the island (i never really bought he couldnt come back).

I think you're referring to Ben telling Locke that whoever turns the wheel can't come back.... which is certainly true based on Ben's track record of telling the truth! :rolleyes:

[bunnydixon]

They might believe that about kids, but why not take the Dharma kids too, then?

On that note, does anyone wonder how many members of the DI they took the way they took Cindy?

well they may well have taken some....we don't know if they did or didnt. or perhaps the truce prevented that?

[a_number_not_a_name]

well they may well have taken some....we don't know if they did or didnt. or perhaps the truce prevented that?
Possibly, but they might have taken some before the truce even if the truce prevented it later.

[Trumby]

I just rewatched "The other 48 days" and the kids are taken on day/night 12, the same night they find the army knife as well as the list on the dead Other.

12 days would have been plenty for Goodwin to get a list to Ben. Goodwin never got a list back because the dead Other had the list of who was to be taken.

[a_number_not_a_name]

I just rewatched "The other 48 days" and the kids are taken on day/night 12, the same night they find the army knife as well as the list on the dead Other.

12 days would have been plenty for Goodwin to get a list to Ben. Goodwin never got a list back because the dead Other had the list of who was to be taken.
I thought they were taken earlier, but if they were taken on night 12, then the question is whether or not we are supposed to believe that it is a coincidence that they ALWAYS take the kids. If it is a coincidence, then taking Alex pre-purge says nothing about when the birth problems started. However, there aren't many pure coincidences on this show-- everything means something.

[NyLost607]

Hi All
I think that the problem with women giving birth is something to do with the Purge. Amy was having problems was because of breech; occurs in alot of births and would be purely due to the baby's position, not anything developmental. Claire gave birth naturally, as did Rousseau. It must have released something into the environmental system which causes the problem
Mox

that is exactly what i thought. it seems to be at the perfect time. im suprised juliet didnt realize that when she knew how far any made it without having a problem

[a_number_not_a_name]

that is exactly what i thought. it seems to be at the perfect time. im suprised juliet didnt realize that when she knew how far any made it without having a problem
By then, Juliet had been there for three years. She probably already knew that pregancies were lasting longer than in her time.

I keep coming back to the basic point, though, that the Others started kidnapping every child on the island sometime between 1977 and 1988, which means they started before the purge.

[NyLost607]

By then, Juliet had been there for three years. She probably already knew that pregancies were lasting longer than in her time.

I keep coming back to the basic point, though, that the Others started kidnapping every child on the island sometime between 1977 and 1988, which means they started before the purge.

good point. so it did happen after dahrma got to the island and before they brought juliette. i wonder how they will explain it. they keep even adding new mysterys so maybe something caused it an we havent even been introduced to it.

[TuesdaySmith]

By then, Juliet had been there for three years. She probably already knew that pregancies were lasting longer than in her time.

I keep coming back to the basic point, though, that the Others started kidnapping every child on the island sometime between 1977 and 1988, which means they started before the purge.

Waaaaiit.. where are you getting those dates from? I didn't realize before that Alex was kidnapped before the purge.. that's interesting.. but how did you get '77 in there?

EDIT: Ohh, I think you mean because they were still having babies in 77.. oh, this is something I've never thought about before!

[a_number_not_a_name]

Waaaaiit.. where are you getting those dates from? I didn't realize before that Alex was kidnapped before the purge.. that's interesting.. but how did you get '77 in there?

EDIT: Ohh, I think you mean because they were still having babies in 77.. oh, this is something I've never thought about before!
Date clarification:

Sawyer, Juliet and the rest landed in 1974. Three years later, Juliet delivered a baby, so as of 1977, there wasn't a pregnancy problem.

Rousseau's message had been playing for 16 years in 2004, and Alex was born right after she arrived, placing her birth at 1988.

In 2004, the ghost of Horace told Locke that he had been dead for 12 years. Horace was killed in the Purge, placing the purge in 1992.

One must wonder if the writers just screwed up placing the purge four years after Rousseau's arrival since she clearly had no interaction at all with the DI, but that complicates the timeline quite a bit.

[wiley]

Perhaps that sonic fence has an impact on childbirth.