desmonds 'vision' in catch 22

[bunnydixon]

lets call it vision for the sake of what i am about to say....and at the time, that is how desmond interprets them.

okay so what he sees is hurley pulling the cable, jin, charlie, hurley and himself trekking into the jungle where charlie gets an arrow in the throat. he also sees that someone is coming to the island.

now, after this vision, he promptly goes on his merry way rounding up hurley, jin and charlie to go 'camping' which is actually causing his vision to become a reality. If he did not do this, would it have been inevitable that the trek would have been taken? Or did desmond actually cause the events to happen?

[imascootinspook]

Not sure. But if you remember in Locke's dream that Boone told him that Desmond was "in this for himself" or similar to that.

[Dead but Here]

I've wondered the same thing about Charlie drowning in the Looking Glass. He would not have been there if not for Des telling him to be there to match a vision. Charlie had no inclination to go and Jack would not have assigned him to do it. He actually had to argue to get Jack to let him do it. It's one of the things that bug me about Charlie's death and about Desmond's visions in general.

[NoData]

lets call it vision for the sake of what i am about to say....and at the time, that is how desmond interprets them.

okay so what he sees is hurley pulling the cable, jin, charlie, hurley and himself trekking into the jungle where charlie gets an arrow in the throat. he also sees that someone is coming to the island.

now, after this vision, he promptly goes on his merry way rounding up hurley, jin and charlie to go 'camping' which is actually causing his vision to become a reality. If he did not do this, would it have been inevitable that the trek would have been taken? Or did desmond actually cause the events to happen?I think Desmond caused these events to happen, and that his visions were not time travel. I think the island was manipulating him.

I've wondered the same thing about Charlie drowning in the Looking Glass. He would not have been there if not for Des telling him to be there to match a vision. Charlie had no inclination to go and Jack would not have assigned him to do it. He actually had to argue to get Jack to let him do it. It's one of the things that bug me about Charlie's death and about Desmond's visions in general.Desmond's visions on the island weren't time travel. I don't think Desmond actually experienced mental time travel until he was on the helicopter headed towards the freighter.

I've been thinking about this and I have the beginnings of a theory on it. Bear with me:

1.) The universe wanted Charlie to die. Desmond saved him over and over, but the universe kept course-correcting to try to kill him.

2.) The island has wants also. The island would not let Michael kill himself.

3.) What the universe wants and what the island wants are not necessarily the same thing.

4.) Ever since the Swan imploded, we have been told that Desmond is 'special', and that at least some of the rules don't apply to him.

I think the island knows that Desmond can change events. Perhaps the island gave Desmond those visions of the future so that Desmond could prevent Charlie's death. They implied in the story that Charlie was the only one that could have turned off the signal because he was a musician. Maybe the universe was trying to kill Charlie because it did not want the jamming signal turned off. The island had wildcard Desmond save Charlie because it did want the jammer turned off.

[chester]

I think Desmond caused these events to happen, and that his visions were not time travel. I think the island was manipulating him.

Desmond's visions on the island weren't time travel. I don't think Desmond actually experienced mental time travel until he was on the helicopter headed towards the freighter.

I've been thinking about this and I have the beginnings of a theory on it. Bear with me:

1.) The universe wanted Charlie to die. Desmond saved him over and over, but the universe kept course-correcting to try to kill him.

2.) The island has wants also. The island would not let Michael kill himself.

3.) What the universe wants and what the island wants are not necessarily the same thing.

4.) Ever since the Swan imploded, we have been told that Desmond is 'special', and that at least some of the rules don't apply to him.

I think the island knows that Desmond can change events. Perhaps the island gave Desmond those visions of the future so that Desmond could prevent Charlie's death. They implied in the story that Charlie was the only one that could have turned off the signal because he was a musician. Maybe the universe was trying to kill Charlie because it did not want the jamming signal turned off. The island had wildcard Desmond save Charlie because it did want the jammer turned off.

Possibly a good theory. Just lacking any explanation for what "the universe" is and what "the island" is.

Any ideas?

[NoData]

Possibly a good theory. Just lacking any explanation for what "the universe" is and what "the island" is.

Any ideas?Jacob seems to be the anthropomorphic representation of the island's will. The universe could be just the natural stream of... fate? The "universe" may not need to be a conscious entity, just blind direction, like water seeking its own level causes the flow of a river.

[chester]

Jacob seems to be the anthropomorphic representation of the island's will. The universe could be just the natural stream of... fate? The "universe" may not need to be a conscious entity, just blind direction, like water seeking its own level causes the flow of a river.

What is "the island" non-anthropomorhized? And the flow of water analogy, does that mean that "the universe's" can flow is changeable, albeit with some resistance?

[NoData]

What is "the island" non-anthropomorhized?In broad terms, I am thinking of Fate vs FreeWill and how it applies to Lost. FreeWill implies the capacity to choose and make decisions. Most islands don't have that capacity but the one on Lost seems to. We haven't been given enough information to know what "the island" really is, but the mystery of the island and the mystery of Jacob must be connected. Maybe "the island" is the combined influence of all the minds that have ever lived on it, or all the minds that Smokey has scanned. Maybe Hurley sees dead people because his mind is more open to the island's influence. Maybe he's not seeing his friends, maybe it's just the island talking to him. In any case, "the island" to me represents FreeWill.

And the flow of water analogy, does that mean that "the universe's" can flow is changeable, albeit with some resistance?"The universe" is Fate. Yes the flow can be changed, and any re-direction by FreeWill probably needs to be maintained to avoid course-correction. Maybe that is what Richard and the Others are on the island for, maintenance. I think the answer is in the Temple.

[chester]

In broad terms, I am thinking of Fate vs FreeWill and how it applies to Lost. FreeWill implies the capacity to choose and make decisions. Most islands don't have that capacity but the one on Lost seems to. We haven't been given enough information to know what "the island" really is, but the mystery of the island and the mystery of Jacob must be connected. Maybe "the island" is the combined influence of all the minds that have ever lived on it, or all the minds that Smokey has scanned. Maybe Hurley sees dead people because his mind is more open to the island's influence. Maybe he's not seeing his friends, maybe it's just the island talking to him. In any case, "the island" to me represents FreeWill.

"The universe" is Fate. Yes the flow can be changed, and any re-direction by FreeWill probably needs to be maintained to avoid course-correction. Maybe that is what Richard and the Others are on the island for, maintenance. I think the answer is in the Temple.

Thank you for your well thought out answers.

[NoData]

Thank you for your well thought out answers.Thank you for asking questions which helped me think things through a bit more.

[Panda]

In broad terms, I am thinking of Fate vs FreeWill and how it applies to Lost "the island" to me represents FreeWill.

"The universe" is Fate.

Do you mean that the Island is not a part of the Universe?
Does it feel to you that you that you can "escape" the universe and end up in some "place" where "the universe" can't have any influence?
So that there is a "place" or a "time" that doesn't answer certain universal law?

These are just some questions. As I don't really understand what you are saying.
Thanks for further clarification.

[NoData]

Do you mean that the Island is not a part of the Universe?
Does it feel to you that you that you can "escape" the universe and end up in some "place" where "the universe" can't have any influence?
So that there is a "place" or a "time" that doesn't answer certain universal law?

These are just some questions. As I don't really understand what you are saying.
Thanks for further clarification.In the normal everyday use of the word "universe", the island is part of the universe. The first definition in Dictionary.com is "the totality of known or supposed objects and phenomena throughout space; the cosmos; macrocosm." And the other definitions from that reference are similar: a universe is a collection of objects. But the way Eloise Hawking, and then Desmond, referred to the "Universe" in Flashes Before Your Eyes, this definition doesn't fit. In the context they used it, the word "fate" would have actually fit much better. So when I hear the term "the universe" on Lost I think of Fate.

The term "the Island" has been used in a different context. The Island has been referred to as an entity that can be communicated with, and that seemingly picks and chooses who it will heal and who it will not allow to die. The Island has been referred to as an entity that has a will of its own, so when I hear the term "the Island" on Lost I associate it with FreeWill.

I find your questions intriguing, and I like that line of thought, except I would not agree that the Island is a place where the Universe can't have any influence. I think the Island has to continuously struggle against the course correction the Universe tries to impose.

[R070V470R]

it shows it so quickly and briefly, but it's there.

near the end of this episode desmond is talking to the monk in his office and a picture frame is on the desk showing the priest with an all to familiar woman from a past episode as well as future episodes.
;)

the next strange occurence to happen is that penny shows up shortly afterwards making all these future connections line up more and more.

[LissaMarie]

Yup! I think most of us are aware of the Eloise photo (I remember a thread on here where we talked about how similar it was to the Grant Wood's American Gothic painting) but I can't wait to figure out how they are all connected! That mystery is close to the top of the list for me. :)