Hurley...Cursed, Lucky or Unlucky?

[LissaMarie]

I've been re-watching past episodes and the thought occured to me...is Hurley cursed, lucky or unlucky?

When Jack visits Hurley in the institution they are playing a game of HORSE (shooting hoops). Jack comments how Hurley never misses and he's right. Hurley made every shot.

When Sawyer and Hurley first get to Otherville with Locke, they are outside playing horseshoes and Hurley kicks Sawyer's butt. Sawyer actually comments on what a "lucky bastard" Hurley is.

Hurley always talks about how he's cursed because of the numbers and it really seems like he is with all of the horrible things that happen to him after he wins the lottery but since he's been on the island, his luck seems to have changed.

Is the curse broken? Is he just good at basketball and horseshoes? He doesn't seem like your stereotypical jock, right? Why are they so obviously pointing this out to us? What are your thoughts?

[FanFiltration]

I don't think the numbers are a curse, but I don't think Hurley can get away from them ether. It's kind of like how Desmond can't break away from the island, they are connected in time.
Let me add that I think at the end of the story that Hurley is going to be at peace with the numbers and they may become something important to his happiness.

[LissaMarie]

I don't think the numbers are a curse, but I don't think Hurley can get away from them ether. It's kind of like how Desmond can't break away from the island, they are connected in time.

That's an interesting notion, Filtration. I agree that Hurley can't seem to get away from the numbers and he seems to have reconciled himself with that fact. My thinking is that the numbers and the island are connected and he can't break away from the island because it isn't finished with him yet.

My question is, why do they seem to be making such a point of focusing on his luck?

[moisie75]

Interesting question! So what is Hurley, cursed,lucky, unlucky? From his first flashback in S1 it seems that people around him were the ones suffering negative consequences of his "luck". Also, very true that Hurley was winning every game with Jack and even Sawyer, who also lost horribly to Hurley in a game of table tennis. So, one shoudl conclude that Hurley himself is very lucky. However, if we go back to S1 when Hurley was playing backgammon with Walt, Walt literally kicked his butt. Hurley even said that he had come on 11th place in a backgammon tournament. Walt had recently learned the game from Locke. So, if Hurley is lucky, we could conclude that Walt is even luckier. Walt did say to someone, maybe Hurley is S1 that his dad told him that he was the luckiest person he (Michael) had ever met.

[notsolost42]

Hurley is really non of the above. You make your own luck. Hurley feels cursed by the numbers because they are lodged in his subconscious from his time loop experience and he doesn't understand it. Many people have commented that they heard his voice repeating the numbers on Rousseau's radio. Now, he is back in 1977 at the DI. It makes sense that he did record the numbers. So, eventually as the time loop continues, and he is back in his own time, having been born, been with his father, etc. again, the numbers are but a vague imprint on his brain but something about them really bugs him. Can you blame him with all he's about to go through????

[Baibe]

He's unluckily lucky.

[DeathMag84]

Also in a podcast a while ago Damon said if there are fans that are looking for "Answers" to the question, where the numbers fit into the overall picture of Lost "You'll be dissapointed". Only because the numbers are the numbers and thats that.

[Baibe]

So we will never know the story with the numbers... that kind of sucks. But I guess it is what it is (I actually hate that saying :p)

[chester]

One of the many questions I'm looking forward to being answered one day. There's definitely something about Hurley and Walt and probability/luck. I'm guessing its something to do with quantum physics again. Once all the questions are answered by the end of the show, I reckon there will be hundreds of aha-so-thats-what-that-was-about moments that we will have to go back and watch again, in a completely new light. Except for the numbers perhaps.

[tpbaxter]

Interesting question! So what is Hurley, cursed,lucky, unlucky? From his first flashback in S1 it seems that people around him were the ones suffering negative consequences of his "luck". Also, very true that Hurley was winning every game with Jack and even Sawyer, who also lost horribly to Hurley in a game of table tennis. So, one shoudl conclude that Hurley himself is very lucky. However, if we go back to S1 when Hurley was playing backgammon with Walt, Walt literally kicked his butt. Hurley even said that he had come on 11th place in a backgammon tournament. Walt had recently learned the game from Locke. So, if Hurley is lucky, we could conclude that Walt is even luckier. Walt did say to someone, maybe Hurley is S1 that his dad told him that he was the luckiest person he (Michael) had ever met.

i don't know what the difference is between cursed and unlucky.

i just watched this episode this morning. Hurley came in 17th and he owes Walt $83,000. i'm guessing Hurley's luck or lack thereof is mostly for comic relief with the exception of the lottery numbers. i think those numbers were cursed or evil or something.

So we will never know the story with the numbers... that kind of sucks. But I guess it is what it is (I actually hate that saying :p)

why does everyone keep saying that? as far as i'm concerned this mystery was already solved, just not on the show itself. check out these links:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PPCCcXarkc
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_numbers
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Valenzetti_equation

[wiley]

I don't know whether Hurley is extra lucky or not. I do know that every time he gets lucky, someone else takes one in the shorts.

[Turnip Queen]

Hurley is really non of the above. You make your own luck. Hurley feels cursed by the numbers because they are lodged in his subconscious from his time loop experience and he doesn't understand it. Many people have commented that they heard his voice repeating the numbers on Rousseau's radio. Now, he is back in 1977 at the DI. It makes sense that he did record the numbers. So, eventually as the time loop continues, and he is back in his own time, having been born, been with his father, etc. again, the numbers are but a vague imprint on his brain but something about them really bugs him. Can you blame him with all he's about to go through????

That makes the most sense! He really HAS made his own luck, because he recorded the numbers!
Ooh and he didn't win a game of Backgammon against Walt!

I'm dying to know more about the numbers - that's one of the themes that has me most interested - anything to do with Hurley is always brilliant!

[DNIYM]

why does everyone keep saying that? as far as i'm concerned this mystery was already solved, just not on the show itself. check out these links:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PPCCcXarkc
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_numbers
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Valenzetti_equation

See, my take on it is the opposite - if it wasn't addressed explicitly on the show, then I'm not counting it.

Personally, I think that they were on the verge of making the show even more pioneering than it has been, by linking the show to the ARG and making us dance between media (TV and Internet) to chase down even more clue pellets like the obedient little monkeys that we are. However, due to the writers' strike, I think a lot of the ARG potential wound up getting lost and there was too little tangible follow-through on things like the Hanso video to make me feel like it was comparable to the show and worthy of similar investment of time/emotion.

Now, I realize that the writers' strike was out of TPTB's control, but that's their problem, not ours. If they needed more than 6 seasons of traditional television series broadcasting hours, they should have planned better but if we don't get answers to basic underlying mysteries from Season 1 *in the construct of the show* (would it really be that difficult to work that Hanso reel into the show, if it's so relevant?), then I'm going to be pissed that they wasted my time and I may never watch a Disney and/or Bad Robot production ever again.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - FU, Darlton for sucking me into this. I hate you both. And I can't wait for Wednesday.....

[tpbaxter]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - FU, Darlton for sucking me into this. I hate you both. And I can't wait for Wednesday.....

haha. i would probably get lynched if i made that statement. i guess the difference is you try to make it all better with that last sentence.

i agree though, they should probably get the hanso video into the real show somehow. it really explains a lot to me and seems particularly important.

[DNIYM]

Not trying to make anything better, at all - I'm just completely comfortable with my hypocrisy and self-inflicted wounds.... :D

[Unbridled Pageantry]

I'm sure that when we see Hurley record the numbers at the radio tower there will be some kind of quick explanation. It could be the whole Valenzetti thing, or a new explanation.

I think that TPTB might have meant that people will be disapointed because so much time and thought was put into the numbers. Alot of people think that the whole show somehow revolves around them, and that's just not going to be the case.

[LissaMarie]

I personally don't believe in luck but it has been brought up more than once in this show. Walt is a great example of that. The thing about Hurley is that he seems to be both cursed and blessed (or lucky) all at once. It's such a dichotomy. He is athletically inclined to a certain extent yet he's extremely overweight. He believes himself to be cursed yet he avoids peril in every situation. (Remember when he was crossing the rope bridge?) He personally avoids peril yet tragedy seems to strike those that he loves.

Perhaps it's a suggestion about the power of thought or faith. Hurley believes himself to be cursed, therefore he is. Maybe it will turn out to be a self-fulfilling prophecy if he was the one who recorded the numbers in the first place. Maybe not. Hurley believes that he can speak with his friends who have died yet he also believes that he has the power to "make them go away" by closing his eyes and counting to 5. That is a classic psychiatric trick and eludes again to the power of thought. He did that with Dave, the cabin and Charlie. So it seems that they are outlining examples of how Hurley's power of thought (or faith) has an almost tangible impact on his life. Is this just another example of faith or belief for us?

[TuesdaySmith]

I didn't really give it much thought before, I just thought that it was something with Hurley's personality, but maybe using the numbers, of the prediction of the end up humanity for personal gain (the lottery), made bad things happen to him? It just seems wrong to use those numbers for the lottery.. He didn't know, but maybe he did bring something on himself for using them.

[tpbaxter]

I personally don't believe in luck but it has been brought up more than once in this show. Walt is a great example of that. The thing about Hurley is that he seems to be both cursed and blessed (or lucky) all at once. It's such a dichotomy. He is athletically inclined to a certain extent yet he's extremely overweight. He believes himself to be cursed yet he avoids peril in every situation. (Remember when he was crossing the rope bridge?) He personally avoids peril yet tragedy seems to strike those that he loves.

Perhaps it's a suggestion about the power of thought or faith. Hurley believes himself to be cursed, therefore he is. Maybe it will turn out to be a self-fulfilling prophecy if he was the one who recorded the numbers in the first place. Maybe not. Hurley believes that he can speak with his friends who have died yet he also believes that he has the power to "make them go away" by closing his eyes and counting to 5. That is a classic psychiatric trick and eludes again to the power of thought. He did that with Dave, the cabin and Charlie. So it seems that they are outlining examples of how Hurley's power of thought (or faith) has an almost tangible impact on his life. Is this just another example of faith or belief for us?

* shrugs *

that's deep and i don't know the answer, but does anyone know how tall Jorge Garcia is? there are guys in the NFL who are probably heavier than Garcia but they're also very tall and very fast. some people are just naturally big but that does not necessarily preclude them from being great athletes. i don't know what my point is there, just saying that Hurley's size and athletic prowess are not necessarily contradictions?

anyway you might be right LissaMarrie but personally i think Hurley's Curse, his cowardess, and his luck are all meant to be ironic for the purposes of being comical more than anything else. Hurley is supposed to make you smile. he's a good guy. a lovable brute. which is why he can see things. he is pure and virtuous. like in quantum leap when only children could see Dr. Sam Beckett probably for the same reasons. i think there are some other shows where only kids and animals can see ghosts?

i think i'm starting to ramble because i don't know how to express my point here but i think i'm saying that the important part of Hurley's story might be just to build a comic relief character who becomes heroic more than any deeper message they are trying to convey.

[tpbaxter]

i am giving myself bonus points for including a Quantum Leap reference in a conversation.

thank you thank you

[NoData]

I always thought Hurley was just good at games from his time in the mental hospital. What else did he have to do there but play games? He has a mind for games anyway. None of the other 815 survivors thought of building a golf course. Fun is what Hurley does.

And as far as athletic, they were playing HORSE. It isn't like they were running around breaking a sweat or anything.

[notsolost42]

I'm sure that when we see Hurley record the numbers at the radio tower there will be some kind of quick explanation. It could be the whole Valenzetti thing, or a new explanation.

I think that TPTB might have meant that people will be disapointed because so much time and thought was put into the numbers. Alot of people think that the whole show somehow revolves around them, and that's just not going to be the case.

I really think that they said from early on that they were never going to explain what the numbers meant, other than what was said. They are what they are. The "Valenzetti Equation." No such thing anyway so they really can't explain it! All the other science is real.

[tpbaxter]

All the other science is real.

* bites his lip and moves on *

[LissaMarie]

NoData, I respect your opinion but it isn't as easy as it looks. I know he wasn't elevating his heart-rate but it takes a certain amount of dexterity and skill to make every shot from outside the free-throw line. It wasn't like he was right under the hoop. Admittedly, perhaps I'm reaching an unfair conclusion and passing judgement on Hurley because of his weight. Both you and TP have a point. All I'm saying is that he isn't the guy that you would think would be athletically inclined. It strikes me as strange!

[tpbaxter]

NoData, I respect your opinion but it isn't as easy as it looks. I know he wasn't elevating his heart-rate but it takes a certain amount of dexterity and skill to make every shot from outside the free-throw line. It wasn't like he was right under the hoop. Admittedly, perhaps I'm reaching an unfair conclusion and passing judgement on Hurley because of his weight. Both you and TP have a point. All I'm saying is that he isn't the guy that you would think would be athletically inclined. It strikes me as strange!

yeah i'm actually watching the episode where Hurley crosses the bridge now (nice reference by the way) and in that one he accidentally triggers one of Rousseau's traps. everyone tells him to stay still and remain calm but for some reason Hurley is now mysteriously obsessed with going forward and finding the French woman so he declares he will jump and avoid the swinging trap, proclaiming that he is 'spry'. apparently he was because he dodged the trap successfully.

like i said, his atheletic prowess doesn't seem like such a contradiction to me, it's just more funny that he is winning stuff so easily and he doesn't even seem to care. i guess it is strange (and funny) that he was blatantly better at basketball than Jack who could pass for starting point guard for the Tar Heels, while Hurley is well, Hurley. like I said i think that's more for humor than anything. it wouldn't be nearly as funny if Hurley sucked at everything and he was constantly mad and frustrated about his skills and weight...

or maybe it would? i don't know...

[LissaMarie]

yeah i'm actually watching the episode where Hurley crosses the bridge now (nice reference by the way) and in that one he accidentally triggers one of Rousseau's traps. everyone tells him to stay still and remain calm but for some reason Hurley is now mysteriously obsessed with going forward and finding the French woman so he declares he will jump and avoid the swinging trap, proclaiming that he is 'spry'. apparently he was because he dodged the trap successfully.

like i said, his atheletic prowess doesn't seem like such a contradiction to me, it's just more funny that he is winning stuff so easily and he doesn't even seem to care. i guess it is strange (and funny) that he was blatantly better at basketball than Jack who could pass for starting point guard for the Tar Heels, while Hurley is well, Hurley. like I said i think that's more for humor than anything. it wouldn't be nearly as funny if Hurley sucked at everything and he was constantly mad and frustrated about his skills and weight...

or maybe it would? i don't know...

I agree that Hurley is GREAT comic relief but I think it's naive to think that is all there is to him. I think this is one instance where it makes sense to speculate. And thank you for that reference, TP. I forgot about him "spryly" dodging Rousseau's trap. Now come on. Be honest. Weren't we supposed to find that and the fact that he crossed that old rickety bridge without breaking it just the least bit strange and ironic due to his weight? I am SO not proud to admit that I jumped to that conclusion but what I am saying is that I think it's intentional. There has to be more to Hurley's story.

He is flippin hysterical though!! And his Mom kills me!

[LissaMarie]

OH! And I LOVE the Quantum Leap reference! I used to love that show.

Now I know you can't be a kid, TP! A youngster wouldn't know about that show, right?:)

[tpbaxter]

I agree that Hurley is GREAT comic relief but I think it's naive to think that is all there is to him. I think this is one instance where it makes sense to speculate. And thank you for that reference, TP. I forgot about him "spryly" dodging Rousseau's trap. Now come on. Be honest. Weren't we supposed to find that and the fact that he crossed that old rickety bridge without breaking it just the least bit strange and ironic due to his weight? I am SO not proud to admit that I jumped to that conclusion but what I am saying is that I think it's intentional. There has to be more to Hurley's story.

He is flippin hysterical though!! And his Mom kills me!

i wouldn't say he's hysterical.. just amusing?

but no yeah yeah that guy is a fat ass. sorry i didn't mean to imply that you are evil or something for coming to logical conclusions because of that fact.

i guess there might be more to it. you make logical arguments for that. but sometimes i start to wonder if there really is a meaning to this story. there's various philosophical and scientific references everywhere but i question how deep those references really are. i am not yet convinced there is some single rational moral to this story. i think i have just decided that sometimes in Lost it pays not to over think stuff and just accept that it's silly mindless fun. to me Hurley is just a funny good-hearted guy who is lucky in an unlucky way. he's a series of contradictions and ironies that are amusing. maybe that's as deep as it goes?

i am again rambling but now that i think of it, there might be something else to it. there seems to be this notion of karma or something in lost. some people, most people, in Lost committed some sin in their past life before the Island and once they redeemed themselves in some way they were either killed (i.e. Shannon, Eko, Ana Lucia) or forgiven or permitted to do more useful work (i.e. Sayid, Sawyer, Kate). in the case of Hurley and Locke they were both virtuous men on and off The Island which is why perhaps it seems nothing bad can happen to Hurley himself and why they can both see Jacob?

as far as that logic goes it is interesting to try to understand Jack's place in all of this. He is probably more virtuous then anyone else in this story, including Locke.

[LissaMarie]

See? I can never tell when you are being serious or mocking people for questioning?!

Regardless, I think you are right about Locke and Hurley and the rest of the crew. I'm not so sure about Jack. Karma or repentance or whatever you want to call it with the likes of Kate, Sayid, Anna Lucia, etc., I also agree with. It's almost like the island is a place to reconcile your sins or bad karma. I have thought the same thing for a while but Jack is still a puzzle in terms of where he lands on that spectrum. Hurley just seems to be good natured and kind and Locke seems to be a victim who just wants to be loved and validated. Jack, while seemingly virtuous, seems almost disingenuous with his good deeds and virtue. It's almost self-serving in a way. He's a "fixer" by nature but that's a selfish characteristic in my estimation...not selfless. True, he's not a murderer (as far as we know) like Kate or Anna or a user / leech / manipulator like Shannon (sorry TP - I know that has to hurt) but I still think he's inherently selfish. But as you said, perhaps I'm reading too much into it!

Anyway, thank you for your posts TP! I appreciate your thoughts, as always!

[tpbaxter]

do you know it's almost 3 am and i cannot sleep?

according to that logic mother teresa was also a very selfish disingenous person? regardless of his motivations, jack has done nothing is entire life except save people. i guess Jack and Locke are interesting parallels. they both forfeited love in favor of some other compulsion. but i don't think there was any selfish gratification in telling the truth about his father. in fact, i think it tore him apart. i think Jack just has some innate compulsion to always do the right thing. he's like clark kent or something.

contrast that with Locke who has killed people intentionally (i.e. Naomi) and performed bad deeds in the name of selfishness. i still think Boone's death was indirectly the cause of Locke's selfish quest to find importance and meaning in his life. i don't remember but did Locke also selfishly knockout Sayid when he was trying to triangulate the location of the antenna in season 1? it seems like Locke was willing to do what he needed to in order to keep everyone prisoner on an Island so he could enjoy the use of his own legs and the chance to be 'special'. which might be why Jacob favors him. Jacob and Ben seem to exhibit the same character flaws.

the only flaw I've seen Jack exhibit so far is that he has refused to believe in their cause.

[chester]

Wow!! Good points, both of you.

I'm seeing both Jack and Locke a bit differently now.

And I don't think its possible to look into LOST too deeply, from which ever angle - morals and ethics included - never know what you might discover....

[tpbaxter]

I personally don't believe in luck but it has been brought up more than once in this show. Walt is a great example of that. The thing about Hurley is that he seems to be both cursed and blessed (or lucky) all at once. It's such a dichotomy. He is athletically inclined to a certain extent yet he's extremely overweight. He believes himself to be cursed yet he avoids peril in every situation. (Remember when he was crossing the rope bridge?) He personally avoids peril yet tragedy seems to strike those that he loves.

Perhaps it's a suggestion about the power of thought or faith. Hurley believes himself to be cursed, therefore he is. Maybe it will turn out to be a self-fulfilling prophecy if he was the one who recorded the numbers in the first place. Maybe not. Hurley believes that he can speak with his friends who have died yet he also believes that he has the power to "make them go away" by closing his eyes and counting to 5. That is a classic psychiatric trick and eludes again to the power of thought. He did that with Dave, the cabin and Charlie. So it seems that they are outlining examples of how Hurley's power of thought (or faith) has an almost tangible impact on his life. Is this just another example of faith or belief for us?

i was thinking about this and i realized i probably missed your original point. i think the question is if the numbers are actually cursed or if there is some rational explanation for it. is Hurley blessed/cursed or just lucky/unlucky? this kind of plays into what seems to be the main theme of the show: fate vs. free will.

i think Hurley certainly seems to believe that he is cursed and for him that may be the most important thing. Hugo, like Locke, believes in something which may be the real reason why he can see Jacob and other ghosts. he believes it so he sees it. until he counts to 5 and convinces himself that he doesn't see it?

so i guess i agree with you now. Hugo's story does seem to play on the main themes of the show which i think are Destiny vs. Free Will and Faith vs. Reason.

[addictedtopainmeds]

I've been re-watching past episodes and the thought occured to me...is Hurley cursed, lucky or unlucky?

When Jack visits Hurley in the institution they are playing a game of HORSE (shooting hoops). Jack comments how Hurley never misses and he's right. Hurley made every shot.

When Sawyer and Hurley first get to Otherville with Locke, they are outside playing horseshoes and Hurley kicks Sawyer's butt. Sawyer actually comments on what a "lucky bastard" Hurley is.

Hurley always talks about how he's cursed because of the numbers and it really seems like he is with all of the horrible things that happen to him after he wins the lottery but since he's been on the island, his luck seems to have changed.

Is the curse broken? Is he just good at basketball and horseshoes? He doesn't seem like your stereotypical jock, right? Why are they so obviously pointing this out to us? What are your thoughts?

i think holding on to those numbers is what is keeping him alive. i believe when he broadcasts the numbers at the tower he will be letting go of them and hence freeing his soul

[Chronos]

Hurley is really non of the above. You make your own luck. Hurley feels cursed by the numbers because they are lodged in his subconscious from his time loop experience and he doesn't understand it. Many people have commented that they heard his voice repeating the numbers on Rousseau's radio. Now, he is back in 1977 at the DI. It makes sense that he did record the numbers. So, eventually as the time loop continues, and he is back in his own time, having been born, been with his father, etc. again, the numbers are but a vague imprint on his brain but something about them really bugs him. Can you blame him with all he's about to go through????

I think we're going to see, the rest of the season, the Losties perform certain actions that will have impact their 2004 selves, and this is one of them.

Consider this for a moment. The O6 had to come back, we've been told numerous times, to fulfill some kind of mission or goal that is at this point in the story unknown to us. Hurley will figure this out and he will understand that he needs to ensure that his future self is on Oceanic 815. He will record the numbers for the transmitter because he knows they will be picked up by the man at the infirmary who told him about them. This in turn will lead him to Australia and then on to flight 815. He knows that if those numbers are not transmitted, the man who heard them will never tell him about them and thus Hurley would never have become involved... but, he knows that he must.

I think all the Losties's stories will unfold in some kind of similar fashion... they will trigger events that precipitate their presence on flight 815 because they know they MUST end up on the island. As to the exact reason as to why this is, it remains to be seen.

I don't believe the numbers are bad luck for Hurley... we've been led to believe they are by Hurley's reaction to some bad events after he won the lottery. However, the numbers got him on the island and I think for him that will be the luckiest thing that could've happen in his life.

Something else to consider too, that I just thought of: What if Hurley indeed transmits those numbers.... and precisely those numbers because he KNOWS that they will be the Lottery winners? Maybe that's where the numbers come from.... the lottery results on the specific date that he ends up winning. Food for thought.

[tpbaxter]

why is everyone convinced that Hurley will broadcast the numbers to himself now? that creates such bizarre paradoxes. it's strange how everyone on this forum goes through these phases simultaneously.

[Baibe]

OH! And I LOVE the Quantum Leap reference! I used to love that show.

Now I know you can't be a kid, TP! A youngster wouldn't know about that show, right?:)

I pretty young (I like to think so anyway) and I know about that show. I loved that show. Used to watch it with my auntie. Plus they still show repeats. WooHoo I get to see my favs sometimes. HeHe

Jack, while seemingly virtuous, seems almost disingenuous with his good deeds and virtue. It's almost self-serving in a way. He's a "fixer" by nature but that's a selfish characteristic in my estimation...not selfless.

To me Jack never wanted to be the leader he just kind of ended up in that role. But once he was their he kinda just went with him and put all this unneeded pressure on himself to get everyone off the island. That is why he takes it the hardest when Locke dies cuz he feels it is his fault.

do you know it's almost 3 am and i cannot sleep?

according to that logic mother teresa was also a very selfish disingenous person? regardless of his motivations, jack has done nothing is entire life except save people. i guess Jack and Locke are interesting parallels. they both forfeited love in favor of some other compulsion. but i don't think there was any selfish gratification in telling the truth about his father. in fact, i think it tore him apart. i think Jack just has some innate compulsion to always do the right thing. he's like clark kent or something.

contrast that with Locke who has killed people intentionally (i.e. Naomi) and performed bad deeds in the name of selfishness. i still think Boone's death was indirectly the cause of Locke's selfish quest to find importance and meaning in his life. i don't remember but did Locke also selfishly knockout Sayid when he was trying to triangulate the location of the antenna in season 1? it seems like Locke was willing to do what he needed to in order to keep everyone prisoner on an Island so he could enjoy the use of his own legs and the chance to be 'special'. which might be why Jacob favors him. Jacob and Ben seem to exhibit the same character flaws.

the only flaw I've seen Jack exhibit so far is that he has refused to believe in their cause.

I totally agree tp. Maybe even Widmore which is why he was a leader as well. They all will do anything to protect the island.


is Hurley blessed/cursed or just lucky/unlucky? this kind of plays into what seems to be the main theme of the show: fate vs. free will.

i think Hurley certainly seems to believe that he is cursed and for him that may be the most important thing. Hugo, like Locke, believes in something which may be the real reason why he can see Jacob and other ghosts. he believes it so he sees it. until he counts to 5 and convinces himself that he doesn't see it?

so i guess i agree with you now. Hugo's story does seem to play on the main themes of the show which i think are Destiny vs. Free Will and Faith vs. Reason.

Futher proving that Jacobis indeed a ghost and no one can really see him. I don't really believe that Ben can see him. Just hear him.

I never thought of it that way about fate vs free will with Hurley and the numbers. It is fate that he knows the numbers becasue he sets up his own destiny. But at the time he (will?) record the numbers he thinks it is free will.

[tpbaxter]

I never thought of it that way about fate vs free will with Hurley and the numbers. It is fate that he knows the numbers becasue he sets up his own destiny.

That is a contradiction in terms. Unless I misunderstand the concepts, there are only two options:

1. Fate = Hurley's future is written for him. He will do whatever he is supposed to.
2. Free Will = Hurley does what he wants to do if he is able.

Time travelling makes everything bizzare but the two options are still the same. Either he was destined to go back in time and do whatever you say he did or it was his choice.

But at the time he (will?) record the numbers he thinks it is free will.

why is everyone saying this will happen now? what are you talking about?

[NoData]

why is everyone saying this will happen now? what are you talking about?

Apparently the voice on the recording sounds like Hurley. When did we hear it again? Was it when Rousseau's team landed on the island? I think that might have been the episode. I don't feel like fact-checking it right now...

But about the destiny/choice scenario, what if the two intersect? What if it is Hurley's destiny to record the numbers, and he chooses to do it anyway? Does that muddle things up?

[Chronos]

why is everyone convinced that Hurley will broadcast the numbers to himself now? that creates such bizarre paradoxes. it's strange how everyone on this forum goes through these phases simultaneously.

Play this clip and listen to the voice on the transmission: http://www.lostisagame.com/video/hurley_message.wmv

Crank up the volume and listen closely "23... 42" has Hurley's intonation. Your mind may be tempted to append "dude" at the end of it. :)

[Chronos]

But about the destiny/choice scenario, what if the two intersect? What if it is Hurley's destiny to record the numbers, and he chooses to do it anyway? Does that muddle things up?

I'm not sure that the "destiny", if that's what it is, is to record the numbers. Rather, Hurley's purpose on the island will require him to record the numbers so that he can ensure that his 2004 self is on Oceanic 815.

[Baibe]

Yea, what NoData says.. people think it is Hurley... don't know if I'm convinced so that is why I put the question mark.

On the other fate vs free will thing...

Fate= hurley winning the lotto and ending up on 815
Free will= at the time hurley thought it was his choice to record those numbers.

(If he indeed recorded them) he finds out that it wasn't free will but his destiny to do it. Again just playing with the whole destiny vs. free will theme of the island that people are mentioning.

I may be confusing myself.

[tpbaxter]

Does that muddle things up?

Yes. That answer is cheating to me. Either it's destiny or free will. One or the other.

Play this clip and listen to the voice on the transmission: http://www.lostisagame.com/video/hurley_message.wmv

Crank up the volume and listen closely "23... 42" has Hurley's intonation. Your mind may be tempted to append "dude" at the end of it. :)

this whole thing annoys me. the Hanso video (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Sri_Lanka_Video) was created in 1975 and they state that they created that message. I don't know what year there in now (thought it was 78?) but even if Hurley dubbed the voice it hardly seems relevant. The DHARMA Initiative is reponsible for that and it would have been broadcast with or without Hugo Reyes.

having people go back in time to reaffirm their own future sounds clever but it doesn't make sense to the story. at least not to me. at least no so far. back to the original question of this thread, Is Hugo cursed or just unlucky? How does having him go back in time to create the conditions that caused his future help further that theme. the theme that occurs from the scenario your suggesting doesn't even make sense.

[stargazer]

Is there anything that DOESN'T annoy you , TP?

[chester]

Yes. That answer is cheating to me. Either it's destiny or free will. One or the other.

There is a theory by a mind philosopher - Daniel Dennett - where there is not such a clear distinction between these two things. He introduced something called "evitability" (as opposed to inevitability) to illustrate his point. Its called the "Multiple Drafts Model" of consiousness http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_Drafts_Model

having people go back in time to reaffirm their own future sounds clever but it doesn't make sense to the story. at least not to me. at least no so far. back to the original question of this thread, Is Hugo cursed or just unlucky? How does having him go back in time to create the conditions that caused his future help further that theme. the theme that occurs from the scenario your suggesting doesn't even make sense.

Maybe it has something to do with memory, like the formation of it... Perhaps Hurley is the only one who can remember the numbers when needed because he has had them conditioned or imprinted into his brain......Yeah the island could just get some random guy off the street whos never seen the numbers to do it, but he's putting in 2 and 5 and 20, and whatever, he basically has no idea, and ...........BOOM! So the island instead invests alot of time in someone, getting those numbers ingained in the brain...and the Island doesn't let anything happen to him that it doesn't want to happen, takes REAL good care of him.....:D

[sixxter]

i think he far more important than he realises at the moment. in answer - lucky maybe - i dont see it as a curse - he does but i think thats coz he doesnt understand it yet.

[tpbaxter]

i think he far more important than he realises at the moment. in answer - lucky maybe - i dont see it as a curse - he does but i think thats coz he doesnt understand it yet.

so sixxter, just to drag you into the conversation we were originally having...

you said you think Hurley is far more important than he realizes. so the question we're asking is why is he so important? and i don't mean as in what will he do in the future, i mean why Hurley? why didn't Sawyer find the numbers? is Hurley a special person intrinsically, as in is he important just because of who he is and not what he has done or will do? or is he just the right guy at the right time (or perhaps the wrong guy at the wrong time).

ultimately this starts to boil down to this question:

do you think things happen for a reason or is it just random luck?

obviously there's no right or wrong answer to this question in real life, it's just what you believe i guess. i'm not sure if this show will try to answer that question or not though. in the world of Lost the right answer may be the first option?

[TuesdaySmith]

why is everyone convinced that Hurley will broadcast the numbers to himself now? that creates such bizarre paradoxes. it's strange how everyone on this forum goes through these phases simultaneously.

I'm not convinced of that.. I don't even understand what people are talking about. I missed something..

[LissaMarie]

do you know it's almost 3 am and i cannot sleep?

according to that logic mother teresa was also a very selfish disingenous person? regardless of his motivations, jack has done nothing is entire life except save people. i guess Jack and Locke are interesting parallels. they both forfeited love in favor of some other compulsion. but i don't think there was any selfish gratification in telling the truth about his father. in fact, i think it tore him apart. i think Jack just has some innate compulsion to always do the right thing. he's like clark kent or something.

contrast that with Locke who has killed people intentionally (i.e. Naomi) and performed bad deeds in the name of selfishness. i still think Boone's death was indirectly the cause of Locke's selfish quest to find importance and meaning in his life. i don't remember but did Locke also selfishly knockout Sayid when he was trying to triangulate the location of the antenna in season 1? it seems like Locke was willing to do what he needed to in order to keep everyone prisoner on an Island so he could enjoy the use of his own legs and the chance to be 'special'. which might be why Jacob favors him. Jacob and Ben seem to exhibit the same character flaws.

the only flaw I've seen Jack exhibit so far is that he has refused to believe in their cause.

I agree to a certain extent. We really don't know what has molded the characters of any of the Losties because we have only bits and pieces of their pasts. Jack was obviously fueled by a desire to seek approval from his father and threw himself into his work. Not an offense by any estimation. I am NOT saying that Jack is evil....I believe he is honorable and has the best of intentions. He is a true leader and seems to fight for the underdog as we saw when he jumped to his childhood friend's defense. Once again, an admirable characteristic and one I can personally identify with. My only point with Jack is that he is not as selfless as he may seem. He gets a lot out of being the hero and righting wrongs.

I disagree with the Mother Theresa thing. That's just plain silly.

As far as Locke, it's interesting when you think about his behavior on and off the island. He seems to suffer from "tunnel vision", doesn't he? It's as if he is so focused on his final goal that he compromises his own integrity in his quest to belong. He did that when he worked on the pot farm before he got on the island and has done that with the death of both Boone and Naomi since he got there. You could even say that he is a lot more like Ben in that way than you might have originally thought. You even see him lying by omission, just like Ben. They just seem to have different motivations...Ben is all about keeping control of the island while Locke just wants to find a family and a place to call home. Both seem as if they justify killing and hurting others if it's a means to their desired end.

[LissaMarie]

Wow!! Good points, both of you.

I'm seeing both Jack and Locke a bit differently now.

And I don't think its possible to look into LOST too deeply, from which ever angle - morals and ethics included - never know what you might discover....

Here here, Chester! I agree completely! Besides, that's half of the fun, right?! I can't help that I have an analytical mind that didn't come equipped with an off switch!?

[LissaMarie]

i think holding on to those numbers is what is keeping him alive. i believe when he broadcasts the numbers at the tower he will be letting go of them and hence freeing his soul

I like that notion, painmeds. I'm just not sure if that would free him or solidify their place in his life. Wouldn't that kind of be his way of accepting that they are a part of the island's story as well as his own? Just a thought...

[LissaMarie]

I'm not sure that the "destiny", if that's what it is, is to record the numbers. Rather, Hurley's purpose on the island will require him to record the numbers so that he can ensure that his 2004 self is on Oceanic 815.


That is what I think too. I'm hesitant to say that I know it's Hurley who recorded the numbers originally until they reveal it but it sure sounds like him. If it is him, this seems like a logical progression to me!

[tpbaxter]

I agree to a certain extent. We really don't know what has molded the characters of any of the Losties because we have only bits and pieces of their pasts. Jack was obviously fueled by a desire to seek approval from his father and threw himself into his work. Not an offense by any estimation. I am NOT saying that Jack is evil....I believe he is honorable and has the best of intentions. He is a true leader and seeme to fight for the underdog as we saw when he jumped to his childhood friend's defense. Once again, an admirable characteristic and one I can personally identify with. My only point with Jack is that he is not as selfless as he may seem. He gets a lot out of being the hero and righting wrongs.

I disagree with the Mother Theresa thing. That's just plain silly.

As far as Locke, it's interesting when you think about his behavior on and off the island. He seems to suffer from "tunnel vision", doesn't he? It's as if he is so focused on his final goal that he compromises his own integrity in his quest to belong. He did that when he worked on the pot farm before he got on the island and has done that with the death of both Boone and Naomi since he got there. You could even say that he is a lot more like Ben in that way than you might have originally thought. You even see him lying by omission, just like Ben. They just seem to have different motivations...Ben is all about keeping control of the island while Locke just wants to find a family and a place to call home. Both seem as if they justify killing and hurting others if it's a means to their desired end.

i still don't really agree about Jack nor do i understand the point there. if anything i'll say he's not a great leader because he is so controlling and stubborn and his boyscout persona is annoying. but as far as what motivates him i think the Mother Teresa analogy is fair. everyone does something for some reason. if you give to charity, don't you do it to feel good about yourself as much as anything? so what? you did something good, right?

and about him seeking the approval of his father, he still ultimately did what he thought was the right thing in being honest about his father's transgressions despite the fact that he believed it would destroy his father's image of him.

Here here, Chester! I agree completely! Besides, that's half of the fun, right?! I can't help that I have an analytical mind that didn't come equipped with an off switch!?

i agree this was an interesting conversation. it made me think and i may have even learned something. good job.

I like that notion, painmeds. I'm just not sure if that would free him or solidify their place in his life. Wouldn't that kind of be his way of accepting that they are a part of the island's story as well as his own? Just a thought...

That is what I think too. I'm hesitant to say that I know it's Hurley who recorded the numbers originally until they reveal it but it sure sounds like him. If it is him, this seems like a logical progression to me!

well it was good until this started happening. i am doing my best not to make any more responses to these theories but it doesn't make sense to me. first we are discussing something that hasn't happened yet. and if it were to happen it would make this nonsensical loop. so you're saying Hurley's purpose is to come to the Island so he can say some numbers that will make him come to the Island? huh?

i vote to never discuss anything until it actually happens in the show.

[chester]

Well it was good until this started happening. i am doing my best not to make any more responses to these theories but it doesn't make sense to me. first we are discussing something that hasn't happened yet. and if it were to happen it would make this nonsensical loop. so you're saying Hurley's purpose is to come to the Island so he can say some numbers that will make him come to the Island? huh?

i vote to never discuss anything until it actually happens in the show.

*thinks to himself* so the doll left lying in the bushes didn't work, eh? Hmmm....

[tpbaxter]

*thinks to himself* so the doll left lying in the bushes didn't work, eh? Hmmm....

i don't know what you're talking about now.

[LissaMarie]

My point about Jack is exactly what you said, TP. We're actually in agreement. I'm just pointing out that he gets a lot out of being a boyscout. While Jack's character bothers you (which is just fine - we can all have opinions) he doesn't bother me at all and I'm sure that is because I personally identify with him to a certain degree. I completely respect your opinion!

And you don't have to discuss things that haven't happened if you don't want to. I happen to enjoy speculating about where things are heading. Free will, right?! Or is it your DESTINY to participate in that which frustrates you?!

[chester]

i don't know what you're talking about now.

Yeah sorry was a bit abstract wasn't it. Just saying you dissappointingly didn't take the bait in refusing to discuss the time-loop theory. Until it happens, at least.

[tpbaxter]

My point about Jack is exactly what you said, TP. We're actually in agreement. I'm just pointing out that he gets a lot out of being a boyscout. While Jack's character bothers you (which is just fine - we can all have opinions) he doesn't bother me at all and I'm sure that is because I personally identify with him to a certain degree. I completely respect your opinion!

And you don't have to discuss things that haven't happened if you don't want to. I happen to enjoy speculating about where things are heading. Free will, right?! Or is it your DESTINY to participate in that which frustrates you?!

perhaps it is just my bad luck?

about Jack, i'm not sure what we're debating but whatever it is we are not in agreement. i also feel like you've suddenly contradicted yourself because more than anything you were the one against Jack. this is how i think it went:

1. you originally asked why Hurley was able to cross the bridge and do those other things and then...

2. I argued that it was because Hurley had good Karma and that he is just comic relief. to which...

3. i probably digressed and commented that Jack of all people should probably have the best Karma...

4. i think that's where you disagreed with me? you said his Karma wasn't that good because he was disingenuous? (nice word btw, i actually looked it up =)). so...

5. i said by that logic mother teresa was disingenious because she probably did her good deeds for selfish purposes too and then....

6. you restated your sentiments about Jack and disagreed with my mother teresa analogy

7. i became frustrated at people's bizzare and wild speculation about events that never happened and restated my opinions about Jack. then finally...

8. suddenly you identify with Jack and I am the evil villain who hates everyone.

see what i mean?

by the way, at some point i think i did agree with you about something and concluded that the reason Hurley is special is because he believes. i think you argued something about power of thought?

[chester]

7. i became frustrated at people's bizzare and wild speculation about events that never happened and restated my opinions about Jack. then finally...

No wonder you find LOST so frustrating.

[LissaMarie]

LOL....I'm not contradicting myself, just elaborating.

And no, I still disagree with you about the Mother Theresa thing. Here's why:

Perhaps you and I have a different interpretation of Karma or a different understanding of what brings good Karma. I'm saying that it's intention or whatever is driving you to do the right thing, not just doing the right thing. The distinction, in my opinion, is selflessness vs. selfishness. I am saying that Mother Theresa's motives were selfless and Jack's are selfish or self-serving.

[tpbaxter]

LOL....I'm not contradicting myself, just elaborating.

And no, I still disagree with you about the Mother Theresa thing. Here's why:

Perhaps you and I have a different interpretation of Karma or a different understanding of what brings good Karma. I'm saying that it's intention or whatever is driving you to do the right thing, not just doing the right thing. The distinction, in my opinion, is selflessness vs. selfishness. I am saying that Mother Theresa's motives were selfless and Jack's are selfish or self-serving.

i still don't understand why you say that. i don't agree that Mother Teresa's acts were completely selfless and I don't see how all of Jack's actions were selfish. i guess we will have to agree to disagree as this debate seems at an impasse.

[LissaMarie]

Just to clarify, I think it's impossible for anyone to say definitively what someone else is thinking or what motivates them. I'm just giving my opinion as an outsider. So mark the date, TP! Once again, we agree!

P.S. I love being challenged. Intelligent debate is hard to find so I thank you for your thoughts, as always!!

[islander]

I've been re-watching past episodes and the thought occured to me...is Hurley cursed, lucky or unlucky?

When Jack visits Hurley in the institution they are playing a game of HORSE (shooting hoops). Jack comments how Hurley never misses and he's right. Hurley made every shot.

When Sawyer and Hurley first get to Otherville with Locke, they are outside playing horseshoes and Hurley kicks Sawyer's butt. Sawyer actually comments on what a "lucky bastard" Hurley is.

Hurley always talks about how he's cursed because of the numbers and it really seems like he is with all of the horrible things that happen to him after he wins the lottery but since he's been on the island, his luck seems to have changed.

Is the curse broken? Is he just good at basketball and horseshoes? He doesn't seem like your stereotypical jock, right? Why are they so obviously pointing this out to us? What are your thoughts?

What a fun thread. We don't talk enough about Hurley.

I think the numbers are what brought Hurley to the island like Locke's walkabout and Christian's death, etc. Although Hurley thought he was cursed by the numbers, I thought Hurley's luck in hoops and horsehoes were meant to show us he wasn't cursed, maybe I'm wrong.

Hurley seemed like the "nice" Lostie who was haunted by the numbers but tough to take too seriously. However, Hurley really impressed me when he drove the DI bus into the Others when they were holding Jin, Bernard and Sawyer captive. That was courageous and effective, and I have viewed Hurley a differently since that action.

He appeared troubled again at the mental hospital, but when he bought those empty seats on 316 and carried the guitar case on the plane he looked like a man on a mission. I'm expecting a "different" Hurley is back on the island.

[krakup]

i thought it was cut and dried, hugo is lucky as far as his personel safety is concerned but everyone close to him is prone to bad luck. it was the same for the other guy who used the numbers, cant think his name.the guy in kalgoorlie (outback australia) the guy hugo tried to find. he found out the guy shot himself but was told the story of how the guy believed the numbers were cursed

[LissaMarie]

What a fun thread. We don't talk enough about Hurley.

He appeared troubled again at the mental hospital, but when he bought those empty seats on 316 and carried the guitar case on the plane he looked like a man on a mission. I'm expecting a "different" Hurley is back on the island.

Thanks for your comments, Islander!

I agree with your expectation about a "new and improved" Hurley, although I think that he will still question his own sanity. He really does seem like he's standing by his convictions and like he knows that he's doing what he knows needs to be done, right? I like the confident Hurley. My only hope is that we can still count on him for those classic one-liners we have grown to love!

[LissaMarie]

i thought it was cut and dried, hugo is lucky as far as his personel safety is concerned but everyone close to him is prone to bad luck. it was the same for the other guy who used the numbers, cant think his name.the guy in kalgoorlie (outback australia) the guy hugo tried to find. he found out the guy shot himself but was told the story of how the guy believed the numbers were cursed

Sam Toomey!

Right! Which, in itself, is a dichotomy. Hurley is both blessed and cursed, all at once. He personally avoids peril while those whom he loves are subjected to the curse.

[chester]

Sam Toomey!

Right! Which, in itself, is a dichotomy. Hurley is both blessed and cursed, all at once. He personally avoids peril while those whom he loves are subjected to the curse.

And the question is why this is the case ???

[krakup]

Sam Toomey!

Right! Which, in itself, is a dichotomy. Hurley is both blessed and cursed, all at once. He personally avoids peril while those whom he loves are subjected to the curse.

exactly, also about the new and improved hugo, cant wait to see how he is on the island 2nd time around

[krakup]

And the question is why this is the case ???

its like the curse of the mummy, it just is.

[wiley]

I think we should see a difference in each character simply because they believe there is a reason for them to be on the island this time. As opposed to being there accidentally.

[krakup]

I think we should see a difference in each character simply because they believe there is a reason for them to be on the island this time. As opposed to being there accidentally.

i think this too,they will start to show similar "psychic" abilities like locke, knowing they have to do something without necessarily knowing why.

[LissaMarie]

Is his athletic prowess part of that "blessing / curse"? Or is he just freakishly skilled at basketball and horseshoes?

And yes, Chester, WHY? Why is he personally protected and everyone else is cursed? Or are they not associated at all? Is it the island that is protecting him (like Michael with the gun that wouldn't fire) and the numbers that have cursed his loved ones by proxy from Hurley? Maybe that represents the 2 sides at war. The dark and the light. One represents Ben's group and the other Widmore's? Just thinking out loud...

[islander]

I think we should see a difference in each character simply because they believe there is a reason for them to be on the island this time. As opposed to being there accidentally.

Interesting observation:

Jack and Hurley believe they need to return to save their friends.

Sun is looking for Jin and obviously believes she can get off the island again since she left Ji Yeon behind. She must know something considering how hard it was to leave the island last time.

Sayid is in handcuffs (still don't know why) so he didn't board the flight voluntarily.

Ben is giddy to be getting back.

Kate looked like she was in a foul mood to me. I can't wait to see what made her return.

[chester]

Is his athletic prowess part of that "blessing / curse"? Or is he just freakishly skilled at basketball and horseshoes?

And yes, Chester, WHY? Why is he personally protected and everyone else is cursed? Or are they not associated at all? Is it the island that is protecting him (like Michael with the gun that wouldn't fire) and the numbers that have cursed his loved ones by proxy from Hurley? Maybe that represents the 2 sides at war. The dark and the light. One represents Ben's group and the other Widmore's? Just thinking out loud...

Okay, well one possibility that I can think of, especially taking into account this new information (to me) about it being Hurley's voice speaking the numbers: Maybe there needs to be someone who has a conditioned memory of the numbers, so they can be broadcast, for whatever reason, when necessary (maybe everyones declarative memories become erased at some point).

One very effective way to condition memories, in line with BF Skinner and Pavlov, is to associate them with adverse and shocking events. These events are normally electric shocks (in lab experiments anyway!), but having bad things happen to the people someone cares about could theoretically have the same effect.

Something else recently made me think that the explosives on the kahana scene, where they are going through the possible ways that they might be able to disarm the device, all leading to the same (in)evitable .....BOOM!, might be an analogy of what the losties are going through in the show, incorporating the time-loop hypothesis. Some of them might have been aware at certain stages that this is/was not their first time, and maybe we'll see more of that in the LOST-as-its-shown-on-TV future.

And I guess from this Hurley's luck could be "the island" making sure that everything else goes right for Hurley, to make sure he's there to do the number thing.

This is all just wild and crazy speculation of course, and my opinion on it could be easily changed at the drop of a hat. ;)

[Unbridled Pageantry]

Is his athletic prowess part of that "blessing / curse"? Or is he just freakishly skilled at basketball and horseshoes?


One thing I love about that game of horse is that they stop at H-O. The 8th and 15th letters of the alphabet. That's just crazy detail by the writers.

[LissaMarie]

One thing I love about that game of horse is that they stop at H-O. The 8th and 15th letters of the alphabet. That's just crazy detail by the writers.

Whoa....that is crazy!! Thanks for that tid-bit, UP!

[LissaMarie]

Okay, well one possibility that I can think of, especially taking into account this new information (to me) about it being Hurley's voice speaking the numbers: Maybe there needs to be someone who has a conditioned memory of the numbers, so they can be broadcast, for whatever reason, when necessary (maybe everyones declarative memories become erased at some point).

One very effective way to condition memories, in line with BF Skinner and Pavlov, is to associate them with adverse and shocking events. These events are normally electric shocks (in lab experiments anyway!), but having bad things happen to the people someone cares about could theoretically have the same effect. Too funny! Only another Psychology major could come up with a reference like that. I love it and it makes a lot of sense! Makes me think of the fish biscuits! I'm sure it has the same effect on Hurley. We can see that it still happens on the island. After Libby died (buzz) Hurley was reminded of his "curse".

Something else recently made me think that the explosives on the kahana scene, where they are going through the possible ways that they might be able to disarm the device, all leading to the same (in)evitable .....BOOM!, might be an analogy of what the losties are going through in the show, incorporating the time-loop hypothesis. Some of them might have been aware at certain stages that this is/was not their first time, and maybe we'll see more of that in the LOST-as-its-shown-on-TV future. That is remarkable. You are a philosopher, aren't you?! I never thought of it that way before. Thanks for that. So does that solidify Daniel's belief that you can't change the past? No matter which path (or wire) you choose, it all leads to the same place (or fate)....BOOM?

And I guess from this Hurley's luck could be "the island" making sure that everything else goes right for Hurley, to make sure he's there to do the number thing.

This is all just wild and crazy speculation of course, and my opinion on it could be easily changed at the drop of a hat. ;)That goes without saying when theorizing about Lost;)

I just had to comment before I turned in. My comments are in blue...

[chester]

So does that solidify Daniel's belief that you can't change the past? No matter which path (or wire) you choose, it all leads to the same place (or fate)....BOOM?

I suppose it does....to a point. As does the Dharmas inability to change the numbers of valenzetti equation. But I would guess that the storyline of the show that we are following is the one particular pattern of occurrances which does avoid the ....undesirable conclusion. I guess its all up to Desmond then, him being immune to "Daniel's Law" and all.

[chester]

One very effective way to condition memories, in line with BF Skinner and Pavlov, is to associate them with adverse and shocking events. These events are normally electric shocks (in lab experiments anyway!), but having bad things happen to the people someone cares about could theoretically have the same effect. Too funny! Only another Psychology major could come up with a reference like that. I love it and it makes a lot of sense! Makes me think of the fish biscuits! I'm sure it has the same effect on Hurley. We can see that it still happens on the island. After Libby died (buzz) Hurley was reminded of his "curse".

Exactly! Gotta keep the conditioning reinforced, right!?

And what's something else that's bound to be conditioned along with a memory of the numbers, if using an adverse stimulus that is?

Yep, avoidance behaviour. Seeing the numbers will make him want to run.

[LissaMarie]

One very effective way to condition memories, in line with BF Skinner and Pavlov, is to associate them with adverse and shocking events. These events are normally electric shocks (in lab experiments anyway!), but having bad things happen to the people someone cares about could theoretically have the same effect. Too funny! Only another Psychology major could come up with a reference like that. I love it and it makes a lot of sense! Makes me think of the fish biscuits! I'm sure it has the same effect on Hurley. We can see that it still happens on the island. After Libby died (buzz) Hurley was reminded of his "curse".

Exactly! Gotta keep the conditioning reinforced, right!?

And what's something else that's bound to be conditioned along with a memory of the numbers, if using an adverse stimulus that is?

Yep, avoidance behaviour. Seeing the numbers will make him want to run.


I totally agree! So if we run with the "avoidance behavior" theory a little further, how does that fit in with Hurley recording the numbers? He has touched the proverbial stove and gotten burned so many times that he is definitely fearful of the numbers and believes them to be cursed. That is inarguable. So either it isn't his voice on those recordings or something drastic has to happen in order to trump his conditioning to the numbers, right?

[chester]

I totally agree! So if we run with the "avoidance behavior" theory a little further, how does that fit in with Hurley recording the numbers? He has touched the proverbial stove and gotten burned so many times that he is definitely fearful of the numbers and believes them to be cursed. That is inarguable. So either it isn't his voice on those recordings or something drastic has to happen in order to trump his conditioning to the numbers, right?

Right! And, I'll go with that it is his voice doing the numbers. After all, that was the whole reason for coming up with process that leads to the avoidance behaviour in the first place.

So, something drastic happens, Hurley has to overcome his greatest fear. He chooses the (buzz) over the .....BOOM!

[LissaMarie]

He chooses the (buzz) over the .....BOOM!

Brilliant Chester!!!:D

[tpbaxter]

One thing I love about that game of horse is that they stop at H-O. The 8th and 15th letters of the alphabet. That's just crazy detail by the writers.

that's crazy for you to notice that. i say it's just coincidence...

[LissaMarie]

that's crazy for you to notice that. i say it's just coincidence...

It is crazy that it was noticed but I doubt it was coincidence. I'm sure that is why they chose the game of HORSE in the first place and stopped after the O. I just can't imagine being perceptive enough to pick up on that?! That boggles my mind!! I have to admit that I find myself searching the web for anagram solvers when a new name comes up from time to time!? Unraveling this show has driven me to the brink of madness!!