The Schrodinger's Cat Paradox

[chester]

Modern physics seems to be popping up all the time, on the show and this forum. But it seems no-one has yet brought up the single-most used tool to discuss the issue in layman's terms the weirdness that results when what is known about the sub-atomic world (i.e., quantum physics) is extended into the macro world of human interaction - the paradox of Schroedinger's Cat.

The thought experiment goes, we can accurately predict, using the mathematics of quantum mechanics, to a negligible degree of error, the time it will take an atom to spontaneously radioactively decay and emit a quantum of energy. And, the amount of time it would take for the probability for that emission to be exactly half or 50%.

Now image a situation was set up where a cat (or replace with your worst enemy or whatever - its just a thought experiment anyway) was placed in a box that nobody could see into, and where a poison gas is released if the emission does occur (or doesn't if it doesn't), given the 50% probability.

According to the pure version of quatum mechanics, the cat is neither alive nor dead, and is both at the same time, until someone opens the box to have a look. Nothing is real until it is observed.

Einstein didn't like that idea and suggested that there were "hidden variable" that decided which was the case. But this has apparently been proved incorrect.

Everett, Wheeler, and Graham suggested that the cat situation, as set up, split the universe in two. Where in one universe the cat is alive, and in the other universe the cat is dead :(. Whether you see a live or a deat cat when you open the box, depends on which universe your in. This is the popular parallel or multiple universes theory.

How, or even if, this might relate to or be used by the writers of LOST, I am yet to find out. Its just a good starting point if anyone wants to discuss "the science" that seems to be a part of the show.

[islander]

Interesting. Thanks for the explanation.

If there are parallel universes, I would think they never intersect, hence the definition of parallel. So, how does one prove the cat is alive in the other universe if it's dead in mine?

[chester]

Interesting. Thanks for the explanation.

If there are parallel universes, I would think they never intersect, hence the definition of parallel. So, how does one prove the cat is alive in the other universe if it's dead in mine?

No probs.

Yeah, that's probably the biggest thing against it as a scientific theory - that it seems pretty difficult, if not impossible, to falsify.

[bunnydixon]

i think this was discussed before on here - but a LONG time ago!

[islander]

It seems familiar but I don't remember the conclusion, if there was one! LOL.

[bunnydixon]

It seems familiar but I don't remember the conclusion, if there was one! LOL.

probably not lol!!! i am thinking - TANGENT ;)

but its always good for those who missed those threads to have a wee read again :)

[wiley]

But in the lost universe when they open the box he might not even be in it, or there might be two dead cats in it.

[tpbaxter]

in my professional opinion cats suck. dogs are much better but the only advantage cats have over dogs is that they can go potty in a box. for some reason my family dog would drag you all over the neighborhood when he needed to go potty and then sometimes he would pee in inappropriate places. plus it was annoying to clean up after him so i never did it which often caused problems with my neighbors for some reason.

also my family's dog used to like to eat used toilet paper. you see, back in the 90s Guilliani had some scam where he made everyone in the city replace their toilets for weaker power toilets to save water or something but it was really just some way to appease corrupt toilet bowl manufacturers and plumbing labor leaders or something. well needless to say we were unable to flush our used toilet paper down the toilet because it would cause a clog. so we had to put the used toilet paper in a garbage bin. the problem was our dog. he loved to eat used toilet paper. when everyone left for the day he would knock down the trash bin and rummage through the toilet paper. then whoever got home first would have to deal with that. man that dog loved used toilet paper. i wish he would have just drank the blue toilet water like most dogs but nope, he wanted used toilet paper.

therefore and in conclusion my thesis is that cats in all dimensions suck, especially Schrodinger's cats. if Schrodinger had done his experiment with a dog, it is quite likely that there would have been dog pee in both dimensions.

[chester]

probably not lol!!! i am thinking - TANGENT ;)

but its always good for those who missed those threads to have a wee read again :)

Hmmm, yes probably right.

But then there seems to be more tangents in LOST than you can find in a textbook on geometry. Oh yeah, and talking about geometry....... :p :D

[TuesdaySmith]

I never liked the idea of Schrodinger's Cat.. not being connected with the show, just the idea in general.. it seems more philosophy than science to me, but then again, maybe the mix of the two is why it does fit into the show!

[bunnydixon]

Hmmm, yes probably right.

But then there seems to be more tangents in LOST than you can find in a textbook on geometry. Oh yeah, and talking about geometry....... :p :D

hahahaha!!!

[chester]

in my professional opinion cats suck. dogs are much better but the only advantage cats have over dogs is that they can go potty in a box. for some reason my family dog would drag you all over the neighborhood when he needed to go potty and then sometimes he would pee in inappropriate places. plus it was annoying to clean up after him so i never did it which often caused problems with my neighbors for some reason.

also my family's dog used to like to eat used toilet paper. you see, back in the 90s Guilliani had some scam where he made everyone in the city replace their toilets for weaker power toilets to save water or something but it was really just some way to appease corrupt toilet bowl manufacturers and plumbing labor leaders or something. well needless to say we were unable to flush our used toilet paper down the toilet because it would cause a clog. so we had to put the used toilet paper in a garbage bin. the problem was our dog. he loved to eat used toilet paper. when everyone left for the day he would knock down the trash bin and rummage through the toilet paper. then whoever got home first would have to deal with that. man that dog loved used toilet paper. i wish he would have just drank the blue toilet water like most dogs but nope, he wanted used toilet paper.

therefore and in conclusion my thesis is that cats in all dimensions suck, especially Schrodinger's cats. if Schrodinger had done his experiment with a dog, it is quite likely that there would have been dog pee in both dimensions.

Did you have to get special mints for his breath. And I sure hope it wasn't one of those licky dogs. :eek: I think he only used the cat because it had just eaten the rat he just been training to do the job. Or was it he was about to train the rat??

[wiley]

therefore and in conclusion my thesis is that cats in all dimensions suck, especially Schrodinger's cats. if Schrodinger had done his experiment with a dog, it is quite likely that there would have been dog pee in both dimensions.

LMAO -- I agree -- LMAO

[spartygirl]

Hmmm, yes probably right.

But then there seems to be more tangents in LOST than you can find in a textbook on geometry. Oh yeah, and talking about geometry....... :p :D

ooohh yes, please do....I might actually understand that !!!! I tend to be more mathimatical than scientific.....sooooo..please continue :)

[chester]

I never liked the idea of Schrodinger's Cat.. not being connected with the show, just the idea in general.. it seems more philosophy than science to me, but then again, maybe the mix of the two is why it does fit into the show!

Especially when you can't falsify it (see above).

Thats why Einstein went for the hidden variable explaination - it could be epirically tested, and was, and was falsified.

Schrodinger didn't like the idea of Schrodinger's cat either, thats why he brought it up. ;)

[TuesdaySmith]

Thats why Einstein went for the hidden variable explaination - it could be epirically tested, and was, and was falsified.

I don't think it was falsified.. I thought the whole thing about the "cat" was that it's a paradox. The cat (or whatever object) exists in all states, only because we can't see it.. once we look at it, it exists in whatever state we see it in. There's no way to test or show whether that's true or false.. we don't know unless we see it, but once we know it doesn't matter anyway because we're only talking about objects we can't see. That's why it seems more like philosophy than science to me.

[chester]

ooohh yes, please do....I might actually understand that !!!! I tend to be more mathimatical than scientific.....sooooo..please continue :)

Oh no, I was just joking. I don't really have anything geometry (or other mathematics) related. Sorry.:o

But I'm more than happy to hear what anyone has to say....:curious:

[chester]

I don't think it was falsified.. I thought the whole thing about the "cat" was that it's a paradox. The cat (or whatever object) exists in all states, only because we can't see it.. once we look at it, it exists in whatever state we see it in. There's no way to test or show whether that's true or false.. we don't know unless we see it, but once we know it doesn't matter anyway because we're only talking about objects we can't see. That's why it seems more like philosophy than science to me.

Schrodinger's cat is philosophy, yes absolutely no doubting that. It's a 'thought experiment' , designed to make the top thinkers in the cutting edge of theoretical physics, at the time and now, to actually have a step back and have think about the reality of what they were all theorising about (and anyone else who was interested could have a go too if they liked, but only if they liked, noone was forcing them, holding a gun to their head, or their daughter's head, or anything.............;) ).

Einstein's hidden variable hypothesis (a notion of an underlying 'clockwork' in operation in the quantum world), was one of the results of that thinking. It was testable - look it up - and it's predictions were not supported by the results.

[islander]

Death to cats!

[islander]

Kidding.....

[Unbridled Pageantry]

needless to say we were unable to flush our used toilet paper down the toilet because it would cause a clog. so we had to put the used toilet paper in a garbage bin. the problem was our dog. he loved to eat used toilet paper. when everyone left for the day he would knock down the trash bin and rummage through the toilet paper. then whoever got home first would have to deal with that. man that dog loved used toilet paper.


Wow, those sound like horrible living conditions. I'm real sorry to hear that man. I hope that things are going better for you now.

[islander]

On a serious note - if TPTB are true to their word and there is no time travel (or spaceships) then when the FDW is turned the island moves to another (read different) dimension.

Good news for Charlie fans! Charlie is not dead if you're in the right dimension.

[beachblinkette]

Is Schrodinger's's cat a Taliban cat? If it is, DO NOT open the box!!

[NoData]

On a serious note - if TPTB are true to their word and there is no time travel (or spaceships) then when the FDW is turned the island moves to another (read different) dimension.

Good news for Charlie fans! Charlie is not dead if you're in the right dimension.

We can rely on the word of TPTB, or we can rely on what is given to us in the show. In the show they have told us that time is linear and there are no parallel universes (Daniel: "we cannot ever create a new street.")

Too bad for Charlie.

[notsolost42]

And that's it exactly. Charlie is alive in one dimension, Locke can walk in one dimension, and Kate probably walks away with BOTH Jack and Sawyer. One for each dimension!
But, there have been a few different solutions for Schrodinger's Paradox, to get back on track. In my search, I found two possible solutions. I am not a mathematician nor am I a computer analyst and it is difficult to translate this any further. Basically, the first solutions approach is like that of computer algarythms. The second solution uses an approach through quantum mechanics and spacetime.

Neurosophic Logic is one solution to Schrodinger’s Paradox. Neutrosophic logic is an extension of classical logic. Classical logic being a three-valued logic, with values that can be interpreted as “yes”, “no”, and “something else” and logic is a fundamental component of computer programming. Fuzzy Logic is an expansion of the classical and multivalue logics. Fuzzy logic, developed in the 60’s at Berkley University, uses the basic idea from probability that an event can have a probability between 1.0 (certain to happen) and 0.0 (certain not to happen). This gradation of likelihood is applied to logic, creating degrees of truth. Fuzzy logic was originally developed for application in problems of knowledge representation and is a more intuitive system for describing events before they happen. Schrodinger’s Paradox involves a degree of indeterminacy or unknowns, which Neutrosophic Logic can take into consideration, whereas other methods including Fuzzy Logic cannot. Neutrosophic Logic is an extension or combination of Fuzzy Logic where every logical variable is described by an ordered triple.

A second solution to Schrodinger’s Paradox is Chronotopoligical Space. If logic is regarded as a set of perceptual operations, then logic has a chronotopology or time structure.In quantum processes, the Newtonian topology is abandoned. Isaac Newton founded classical mechanics on the view that space is something distinct from body and that time is something that passes uniformly without regard to whatever happens in the world. The chronotopological space is based on the interaction proper time neighborhood. It is disconnected, satisfies the separation axioms of the topological space and is developed and used to solve some problems related to quantum field theory. In chronotopology the time evolution operator breaks down into the alternative. The unitary and the reduction dynamics are implemented by means of two time evolution operators and derived from a quantized version of Gel'fand's theory of the generalized random and infinitely divisible fields.

What I found most interesting, though I am not sure how Schrodinger's Paradox relates to Lost just yet (ask Chester if it does) is that the solution is found in an ordered triple or a set of three elements. Could this have to do with the continuous use of a three year difference for occurances on Lost seemingly since season one? I don't see a relationship yet but maybe Chester can take this further if there is anything to it.

[MrsBoone]

Does PETA know about this!?

[chester]

And that's it exactly. Charlie is alive in one dimension, Locke can walk in one dimension, and Kate probably walks away with BOTH Jack and Sawyer. One for each dimension!

They're not just different dimensions, they're whole universes, exactly the same except for the state of the cat, for example.

My understanding with the logic bit is that classical or Aristotlean logic is just yes/no, true/false, etc, and this was the mainstay of science up to and including Newton. It is modern or quantum physics where the maybe clause was added to the calculations as probability or uncertainty.

There are probably thousands of proposed solutions to the paradox.....be careful ;)

[chester]

Does PETA know about this!?

Yes PETA is aware, and are apparently holding Schrodinger prisoner in a secret cabin somewhere, until he promises never to do any more of these silly experiments on cats or any other animal, real or imaginary.

[notsolost42]

They're not just different dimensions, they're whole universes, exactly the same except for the state of the cat, for example.

My understanding with the logic bit is that classical or Aristotlean logic is just yes/no, true/false, etc, and this was the mainstay of science up to and including Newton. It is modern or quantum physics where the maybe clause was added to the calculations as probability or uncertainty.

There are probably thousands of proposed solutions to the paradox.....be careful ;)

But that's where the "maybe" comes in, in the Neurosophic Logic. And, yes, I do understand that they are entire universes but for the purpose of the boards it's hard enough for lots of folks to follow. That's why the "reality" back in Los Angeles is what it is, or isn't.

I'm sure there must be several solutions, however I chose the two that I thought had a slight connection to the show. The first is based on algarythms, right? Well, with all of the particular games they have highlighted in the show I discovered PSpace and EXspace. Also, algorythm related. It reminded me of that. The second was based in the quantum mechanics of spacetime and I think the connection there is an easy one to make.
Damned cat....sheds too much!

[DNIYM]

I'm lost - if we agree that it is a Sci-Fi show and this thought experiment is more philosophical than scientific, then how is this relevant to the show?

Is Ben the cat? Or is Locke's pop the cat and the magic box is, well, the box?

[notsolost42]

I'm lost - if we agree that it is a Sci-Fi show and this thought experiment is more philosophical than scientific, then how is this relevant to the show?

Is Ben the cat? Or is Locke's pop the cat and the magic box is, well, the box?

Well, I think we were considering the paradoxes of a multiverse and their possible solutions...but then again, I think I'm tripping over my own brainwaves at the moment!;)

[wiley]

Well, I think we were considering the paradoxes of a multiverse and their possible solutions...but then again, I think I'm tripping over my own brainwaves at the moment!;)

Aren't those microwaves?:D

[chester]

I'm lost - if we agree that it is a Sci-Fi show and this thought experiment is more philosophical than scientific, then how is this relevant to the show?

Is Ben the cat? Or is Locke's pop the cat and the magic box is, well, the box?

It's more than just a sci-fi show in my opinion. Philosophy seems to be a big part of it too (and philosophy is just the part that science is still trying to explain about the nature of the universe anywway). At least thats what I'm getting from it anyway.

How this particular thought experiment might relate to the show, I will leave up to everyone's imagination. Who knows, maybe someone will be thinking along the same lines as the writers.

"The box is just a metaphor John"

[notsolost42]

Aren't those microwaves?:D

Quite possibly....

[notsolost42]

It's more than just a sci-fi show in my opinion. Philosophy seems to be a big part of it too (and philosophy is just the part that science is still trying to explain about the nature of the universe anywway). At least thats what I'm getting from it anyway.

How this particular thought experiment might relate to the show, I will leave up to everyone's imagination. Who knows, maybe someone will be thinking along the same lines as the writers.

"The box is just a metaphor John"

Say..........is this the same box that Ben told John about????:D

[islander]

We can rely on the word of TPTB, or we can rely on what is given to us in the show. In the show they have told us that time is linear and there are no parallel universes (Daniel: "we cannot ever create a new street.")

Too bad for Charlie.

Who said there are no parallel universes? I missed that.

Dan's comment could pertain to time being like a street for each dimension.

Multiple dimensions could explain a lot without needing time travel - it explains how there is a second 815, the dialogue differences for the alledged identicle scenes, how people dead in one dimension are alive in others, the whispers, how the island is 3 years behind the 'real' world, how there's always a time difference going from/to the island, miles ability to speak to the 'dead', Hawking's knowledge of the future, and so on...pretty interesting???

[notsolost42]

Who said there are no parallel universes? I missed that.

Dan's comment could pertain to time being like a street for each dimension.

Multiple dimensions could explain a lot without needing time travel - it explains how there is a second 815, the dialogue differences for the alledged identicle scenes, how people dead in one dimension are alive in others, the whispers, how the island is 3 years behind the 'real' world, how there's always a time difference going from/to the island, miles ability to speak to the 'dead', Hawking's knowledge of the future, and so on...pretty interesting???

Yup, exactly. Now, it's multiple universes, okay. Were you ready for that one? Not just the island. That's why L.A. seemed to fit so well with the "timeline" of 108 days.....
Now, I'm just still torn if it's the String Theory with eleven dimensions (universes with possible outcomes) or a simple duality.

[notsolost42]

We can rely on the word of TPTB, or we can rely on what is given to us in the show. In the show they have told us that time is linear and there are no parallel universes (Daniel: "we cannot ever create a new street.")

Too bad for Charlie.

**pulls out soap box and picks up megaphone*

For the googolith time, TIME IS NOT LINEAR!!! You need to use his analogy for the street and the record!!! SPACETIME!!!!!

[islander]

Yup, exactly. Now, it's multiple universes, okay. Were you ready for that one? Not just the island. That's why L.A. seemed to fit so well with the "timeline" of 108 days.....
Now, I'm just still torn if it's the String Theory with eleven dimensions (universes with possible outcomes) or a simple duality.

Obviously it's up to TPTB, but Ben turns the FDW and moves 10 months in the future, Locke moves 3 years, the freighter doctor is 2 days, the rocket is 31 minutes late - if Hawking is right, the island is always moving but she left out that it's moving through dimensions, and if there's truly no time travel, then it seems to me, there are more than two dimensions.

[notsolost42]

Obviously it's up to TPTB, but Ben turns the FDW and moves 10 months in the future, Locke moves 3 years, the freighter doctor is 2 days, the rocket is 31 minutes late - if Hawking is right, the island is always moving but she left out that it's moving through dimensions, and if there's truly no time travel, then it seems to me, there are more than two dimensions.

Very possible. I counted nine representations on the journal entry that Dan had. You know, the one with the spheres. They may have represented different dimensions in spacetime. I am still working on the equations. I think that there is one based on the Dirac Relativistic Wave or something. It's a toss up though. If we start getting into the Dirac matter vs. anti-matter theories, then for sure, BOOM!!! God help us!!! When the two collide, that's it. Over and done. The matter vs. anti-matter thing came up with the two time traveling bunnies. "Don't let them near each other" Candle freaked!

[notsolost42]

Who said there are no parallel universes? I missed that.

Dan's comment could pertain to time being like a street for each dimension.

Multiple dimensions could explain a lot without needing time travel - it explains how there is a second 815, the dialogue differences for the alledged identicle scenes, how people dead in one dimension are alive in others, the whispers, how the island is 3 years behind the 'real' world, how there's always a time difference going from/to the island, miles ability to speak to the 'dead', Hawking's knowledge of the future, and so on...pretty interesting???

You know, you just made me think of the craziest thing! What if the losties are whispers in the whispers dimension? Seriously, they are people and they hear the losties! :eek: Could you imagine???? OMG!

[TuesdaySmith]

You know, you just made me think of the craziest thing! What if the losties are whispers in the whispers dimension? Seriously, they are people and they hear the losties! :eek: Could you imagine???? OMG!

That would definitely be crazy.. like dream dimensions! But, they have recordings of the whispers on DarkUFO and they whispers are talking about the people in the scenes, so the whispers know something about what's happening.

[islander]

You know, you just made me think of the craziest thing! What if the losties are whispers in the whispers dimension? Seriously, they are people and they hear the losties! :eek: Could you imagine???? OMG!

Aren't the whispers people talking backwards - sounds like a mirror image dimension to me. :eek:

[notsolost42]

That would definitely be crazy.. like dream dimensions! But, they have recordings of the whispers on DarkUFO and they whispers are talking about the people in the scenes, so the whispers know something about what's happening.

I've read the transcripts, I know. But why would it be strange? If they occupy one dimension as a physical being and another as a whisper? And then, vice versa for the losties?

[notsolost42]

Aren't the whispers people talking backwards - sounds like a mirror image dimension to me. :eek:

They do talk backwards. An inverse of one dimension.

[TuesdaySmith]

I've read the transcripts, I know. But why would it be strange? If they occupy one dimension as a physical being and another as a whisper? And then, vice versa for the losties?

Well, because you said that maybe the losties were whispers in the Whisperer dimension.. that wouldn't work.. the Whispers can see the losties and they whisper about what's going on in the scene.. in order for the losties to whisper about the Whisperer's "scenes", they'd have to see them. But, they don't, so it's really not the same thing at all.

[notsolost42]

Well, because you said that maybe the losties were whispers in the Whisperer dimension.. that wouldn't work.. the Whispers can see the losties and they whisper about what's going on in the scene.. in order for the losties to whisper about the Whisperer's "scenes", they'd have to see them. But, they don't, so it's really not the same thing at all.

Ah, okay. Like I said, it was a crazy thought. Never meant it to be taken quite so seriously. But, you make a good point about it.

[NoData]

Who said there are no parallel universes? I missed that.

Dan's comment could pertain to time being like a street for each dimension.

Multiple dimensions could explain a lot without needing time travel - it explains how there is a second 815, the dialogue differences for the alledged identicle scenes, how people dead in one dimension are alive in others, the whispers, how the island is 3 years behind the 'real' world, how there's always a time difference going from/to the island, miles ability to speak to the 'dead', Hawking's knowledge of the future, and so on...pretty interesting???

Interesting? Yes. And there was a television show done about parallel universes. Did you ever see Sliders?

But on LOST everything to date has been explained in terms of a single timeline. A timeline that both Mrs. Hawking and Daniel have told us can be changed as far as the details, but the main events stay the same. Time on this show is actually more analogous to the way stories are written, than to multiple realities: the plot outline stays the same, but the details can change. A time loop is like a rewrite.

Going with the story analogy, most if not all of what you state above can be explained in terms of previous versions of the timeline that have been partly or even mostly overwritten but not completely erased!

[NoData]

**pulls out soap box and picks up megaphone*

For the googolith time, TIME IS NOT LINEAR!!! You need to use his analogy for the street and the record!!! SPACETIME!!!!!

A street has only two directions and so does a record; he never said the record was skipping to another album!

[notsolost42]

Interesting? Yes. And there was a television show done about parallel universes. Did you ever see Sliders?

But on LOST everything to date has been explained in terms of a single timeline. A timeline that both Mrs. Hawking and Daniel have told us can be changed as far as the details, but the main events stay the same. Time on this show is actually more analogous to the way stories are written, than to multiple realities: the plot outline stays the same, but the details can change. A time loop is like a rewrite.

Going with the story analogy, most if not all of what you state above can be explained in terms of previous versions of the timeline that have been partly or even mostly overwritten but not completely erased.

Everything, except for why Locke was paralyzed and then could walk, and then be paralyzed again and then walk again, or why Kate awoke on the island in two identical scenes and said two different things, or why when Locke went to visit Walt, the same people could be seen walking behind him, twice, actually starting over again the second time from the second camera perspective, or Walt appearing soaking wet to Shannon after he had been abducted at sea, or Locke constantly hurting the same leg again and again, or why Jacob's cabin is here, now it's there...shall I continue? Just because the timeline looks the same doesn't necessarily mean that things are not occuring just a little differently in different universes. Just because there are multiple universes does not mean that it is not all in a time loop. They are not mutually exclusive. You must consider it as spacetime and not just a timeline.
And proof of a time loop? How about Adam and Eve, Dan and Charlotte playing a little memory card game and Dan guessing 3 - 10 - 6, well, he did miss one but he is not known for having the best memory, or a runway being made in 2004 for a plane that would land in 1977/2008, or my favorite, Ben always having a plan. Just to name a few.

[notsolost42]

A street has only two directions and so does a record; he never said the record was skipping to another album!

Duh, okay then. :rolleyes: How very Newtonian of you.

So then, street = one dimension of time and island = three dimensional space = four dimensional manifold of spacetime doesn't exist to a physicist like Daniel???
By the way, streets can biforcate, curve, bend, and do all kinds of things....so can time....ahhhhhhhhhh!

[bunnydixon]

i think the multiple dimensions, parallel universes etc....is a total cop out and lost is above that. it would almost mean that everything that this show has spent years so carefully setting up, is as good as null and void. i am pretty certain that TPTB have said directly and indirectly they want to avoid a situation like this (paradoxes etc..) and not use time travel as a way to explain everything or use it to bend the rules set within the show. lost is not purely about time travel. its a HUGE aspect to the show which has so much more going on in it aswell.

[chester]

i think the multiple dimensions, parallel universes etc....is a total cop out and lost is above that. it would almost mean that everything that this show has spent years so carefully setting up, is as good as null and void. i am pretty certain that TPTB have said directly and indirectly they want to avoid a situation like this (paradoxes etc..) and not use time travel as a way to explain everything or use it to bend the rules set within the show. lost is not purely about time travel. its a HUGE aspect to the show which has so much more going on in it aswell.

We will have to wait and see. But if they do use the parallel universes idea to avoid the paradox, I'm sure the LOST writers will do it well, it will be something far more genious than what us mere mortals can come up with whatever they do. I have faith ;)

Personally, I quite like the idea that the "the island" is the "hidden variable" Einstein was so sure must have existed, it would explain a few things. Mixed in with the importance of concious awarness - the close-up eye scenes always make me think of that.....But I try not to predict the show too much so I can just enjoy the ride and never become disappointed with whatever happens, except for them turning Sawyer into a pussy.......but that's another story....

[abcd1234]

So far on the show it seems to be there is one linear timeline (SPACE TIME SPACE TIME!!) because the things that happened in the 50s and 70s happened before the 06 travelled back in time. the story of the show is saying these events always happened, and whatever happens has already happened.

There was a big need for the 06 to go back to the island, not just to "save their friends" but for another, hidden purpose (it seems ben, widmore, and hawking know that the 06 were in the past and needed to make sure they go back in time to do whatever it is they already had done, per say). and there is the story with locke going on in 2007 were there is a war coming and these hints towards destiny for some characters.

With the idea of many dimensions/universes, you are saying basically because a possibily can have different outcomes, a new parellel universe is created? I see the possibilities with the examples of walt, etc but also its possible the smoke was walt in those scenes, as he also helped locke get out of the hole when ben shot him, but he obviously wasnt on the island at that time and used the "you have work to do" phrase.

Also, exactly where/how do these dimensions/realities occupy physical space? if this universe exists, from earth throughout, exactly where are the other earths located?

[chester]

With the idea of many dimensions/universes, you are saying basically because a possibily can have different outcomes, a new parellel universe is created? Also, exactly where/how do these dimensions/realities occupy physical space? if this universe exists, from earth throughout, exactly where are the other earths located?

I think the idea is that the splitting only occurs when the probability between two possible events are exactly equal at 50%, but I personally don't know why other values should be ignored??? It all depends on how these multiverses are supposed to exist too, and bringing time into the equation makes for very interesting possibilities indeed. Perhaps the other universes are just potential universes with associated probability values, unless they are in the present - the here and now (that reminds me of a favourite saying of mine: "no matter what happens, it's always now..."). Anyway, everything else, in the future and the past, is .. not real, does not occupy physical space as we understand it. They are just potential, like the matter and energy in the quantum soup. I suppose the double cone diagram could describe that; where the middle bit, where the pointy ends meet, is the present, and the cone bases on either end are the time extensions into the past and the future......just thinking aloud here......... So the passage of time could then be likened to a running a serviette ring along the length of the serviette.....


Now, speaking of cones.....

[NoData]

So far on the show it seems to be there is one linear timeline (SPACE TIME SPACE TIME!!) because the things that happened in the 50s and 70s happened before the 06 travelled back in time. the story of the show is saying these events always happened, and whatever happens has already happened.I think this is what they are telling us in the show also.

If there are multiple realities on the show,
-why was it so critically important for Desmond to not marry Penny, that Mrs. Hawking had to reveal herself to him?
-why would the universe need to course correct?
-why did Daniel refer to a (singular) street, and explicitly say that a new street could not be created?

Also, exactly where/how do these dimensions/realities occupy physical space? if this universe exists, from earth throughout, exactly where are the other earths located?Well theoretical physics does see multiple realities as a possibility, because the equations seem to support it. I've heard it explained different ways, but because we are 'tuned in' to the channel of our ordinary world, it can be difficult to conceive of the other channels that may exist on the dial. But they really haven't brought this concept into the story yet. Maybe they will.

Now, speaking of cones.....???

[islander]

i think the multiple dimensions, parallel universes etc....is a total cop out and lost is above that. it would almost mean that everything that this show has spent years so carefully setting up, is as good as null and void. i am pretty certain that TPTB have said directly and indirectly they want to avoid a situation like this (paradoxes etc..) and not use time travel as a way to explain everything or use it to bend the rules set within the show. lost is not purely about time travel. its a HUGE aspect to the show which has so much more going on in it aswell.

I don't think multiple dimension would necessarily cause a paradox, and I'm not sure what to believe since TPTB said there was no time travel. Either TPTB lied about time travel or there are multiple dimensions.

[Baibe]

Has anyone seen the movie The One with Jet Li... that is what all these different and parallel universes sound like to me. In one universe he is the cop in the other the prisoner. Same thing is happening at the same time but he is doing two different things but both hims end at the same place. I so hope that made sense.

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

Bell's Theorem suggests that Einstein is wrong, but is Bell's Theorem infallible?

Disproof of Bell’s Theorem by Clifford Algebra Valued Local Variables (http://tinyurl.com/cj2cys)

Disproof of Bell’s Theorem: Further Consolidations (http://tinyurl.com/dc8pc4)

Can Bell’s Prescription for Physical Reality Be Considered Complete? (http://tinyurl.com/ddoxae)

I think it's a copout to suggest that because we cannot understand a pattern or cannot conceive of any way of understanding it without interfering with it that we must, by default, consider the pattern to be "random." That's like suggesting that because we don't know the science behind something, it must be produced via magic.

[Chronos]

Everett, Wheeler, and Graham suggested that the cat situation, as set up, split the universe in two. Where in one universe the cat is alive, and in the other universe the cat is dead :(. Whether you see a live or a deat cat when you open the box, depends on which universe your in. This is the popular parallel or multiple universes theory.

There is a fictional book by Stephen Baxter, "The Time Ships", that is a sequel to H.G. Wells's classic novel "The Time Machine". Baxter explores this multiple universes theory ad nauseum with very entertaining results in this book. In a nutshell, he presents the idea that time flows on a series of decisions. Say, for example, you wake up in the morning and think about having a cup of coffee.... you may decide to have it, or not... but from that two different realities split off... in one you do have the coffee and in the other you do not, but both continue on into infinity.

In the book Baxter posits that if you could travel to the future and back to your own time, it is near impossible to return to that future you first visited because there are countless billions of possible alternatives. Having travelled in the first place was a universe-altering decision... in one universe you did travel, in the other you did not, and so on.

I have my doubts that this is what Lost's TPTB are exploring, but we can't be sure. Ask me again in Summer 2010. :)

[dreadstar]

The Schroedinger (did I spell that correctly?) Cat Experiment is a little different from what was quoted originally, at least in my experience.

You take a cat. The cat is sealed in a box. You take that box full o' cat and bury it....deep. Now wait 50 years. Dig the box up. The question...is that cat alive or dead?

Well, our collective experience (average lifespan of felines, oxygen deprivation, etc.) will spell out for us a conclusion that the cat is dead...as a doornail. BUT! We do not know for sure until we observe it, thus opening the box.

In science terms, this is the concept of observational effect on the collapse of a probability wave function. The probability of the cat existing as a) dead, b) alive or c) something else (thanks, notso). The cat, according to quantum physics, actually exists as ALL 3 until observed. For more information on this concept, consult descriptions of the "double-slit experiment".

As far as LOST is concerned....if the island is not able to be "observed" (Ben to Locke: "God can't see this island any better than anyone else"...or something to that effect), then perhaps it is the ultimate control laboratory....affected only by those on the island? Perhaps this will allow the human race to change the numbers? Not sure...just an idea.

[TuesdaySmith]

i think the multiple dimensions, parallel universes etc....is a total cop out and lost is above that. it would almost mean that everything that this show has spent years so carefully setting up, is as good as null and void. i am pretty certain that TPTB have said directly and indirectly they want to avoid a situation like this (paradoxes etc..) and not use time travel as a way to explain everything or use it to bend the rules set within the show. lost is not purely about time travel. its a HUGE aspect to the show which has so much more going on in it aswell.

I don't think that parallel universes is a cop-out.. if it's thought of in a sci-fi way, then I do, but when I think of it, I think of all time going on at the same time.. maybe "parallel universes" isn't even a good name for what I'm thinking..

But, kind of how each of us is made up of everything that happened to us in our past, maybe we're also made up of everything that happens to us in our future.

[lostlindy]

in my professional opinion cats suck. dogs are much better but the only advantage cats have over dogs is that they can go potty in a box. for some reason my family dog would drag you all over the neighborhood when he needed to go potty and then sometimes he would pee in inappropriate places. plus it was annoying to clean up after him so i never did it which often caused problems with my neighbors for some reason.

also my family's dog used to like to eat used toilet paper. you see, back in the 90s Guilliani had some scam where he made everyone in the city replace their toilets for weaker power toilets to save water or something but it was really just some way to appease corrupt toilet bowl manufacturers and plumbing labor leaders or something. well needless to say we were unable to flush our used toilet paper down the toilet because it would cause a clog. so we had to put the used toilet paper in a garbage bin. the problem was our dog. he loved to eat used toilet paper. when everyone left for the day he would knock down the trash bin and rummage through the toilet paper. then whoever got home first would have to deal with that. man that dog loved used toilet paper. i wish he would have just drank the blue toilet water like most dogs but nope, he wanted used toilet paper.

therefore and in conclusion my thesis is that cats in all dimensions suck, especially Schrodinger's cats. if Schrodinger had done his experiment with a dog, it is quite likely that there would have been dog pee in both dimensions.

Waaaaaaay too much info!:eek:

[notsolost42]

What wonderful, thought provoking input from everyone on this thread! Wow, I am impressed and thrilled by you all!!!!
The concept of parallel universes would ,make me happy as an outcome for Lost. It would so eloquently explain so much that we've seen and with the talent that writes the show I am sure we would not be disappointed in the least! I do believe that there still are mysteries to be unveiled that cannot be explained by a parallel universe, such as the smoke monster, the Black Rock, etc. So, there is still so much left to understand. As for the interpersonal relationships of our favorite characters on the show, I fiind it funny to let myself think that in one universe Jack and Kate are together, in another Sawyer and Kate, then Jack and Juliet, and finally Sawyer and Juliet! How lucky for them!!! LOL!!! As they say, the best of both worlds!!!! I do not know if that is a possible outcome but am just thinking out loud how funny that would be!
I do not believe that the parallel universe or multiverse theory creates any paradoxes at all. I think perhaps we got a little sidetracked with the Schrodinger Paradox, though it is something that has many possible solutions and that on its own is important to keep in mind. The Schrodinger Paradox was fun to research and read about and write about solutions that I could barely muddle through even reading. I hope I did them some kind of justice.
Someone mentioned a few pages back that time is linear, even in the spacetime sense or something to that effect. I think the point that confuses many people is that it is only "time" like a clock ticking that Dan was talking about but event time. A chronological linear accounting of events. Because he has also mentioned the record as the metaphor for the island, I took that to mean a representation of three dimensional space. That was why I kept saying you had to put both of his metaphors together to get spacetime. His street metaphor can be considered on its own but only in the sense of chronological linear timelines and not spacetime.
Keep up the great work here! I will make a new entry in the Science of Lost thread soon. I want to bring up what Dan said about the light scatter and it's possible meanings. If anyone would like something else answered instead please just let me know either by PM or on this thread. I would be happy to help.

[LostInSpaceTime]

ive been thinking about the black rock and i believe possibly during one of the flashes where the island moved made it appear beneath the black rock leaving it shipwrecked in the middle of the island

[notsolost42]

ive been thinking about the black rock and i believe possibly during one of the flashes where the island moved made it appear beneath the black rock leaving it shipwrecked in the middle of the island

A good thought and one that many of us have had. I do hope that they come up with something a little more "exotic' though to explain it. I trust the writers and producers will do a great job with that and everything else.

[abcd1234]

Notso, although I find you rude and annoying at times, I have been reading the links you have been posting through a bunch of threads - and yes, I follow them, I just hadnt felt like reading 30 plus pages of scientific theories to unravel a television show - but I do see where many of your theories could make sense.

As for the wormhole thing, it probably isnt possible the blackrock got sucked in as boat would not have been in tunisia. unless there are more wormholes, or more wheels.

[Pung]

Notso, although I find you rude and annoying at times, I have been reading the links you have been posting through a bunch of threads - and yes, I follow them, I just hadnt felt like reading 30 plus pages of scientific theories to unravel a television show - but I do see where many of your theories could make sense.

As for the wormhole thing, it probably isnt possible the blackrock got sucked in as boat would not have been in tunisia. unless there are more wormholes, or more wheels.

Widmore called Tunisia the "exit", not the "entrance"

[abcd1234]

additionally, as the offer is on the table to answer any questions, where are all these other dimensions supposed to physically be?

BTW I agree parallel universes would be a cop-out because why the urgency or drama of anything? I mean, if sawyer dies its ok because there is still the sawyer who is alive that decided to watch the flintstones instead of the jeffersons, as well as the sawyer that made himself a sandwich and the one who wanted to order a pizza instead. It would be like dying in a video game.

[abcd1234]

widmore doesnt seem very smart. I dont know that any of this is true, but it could be. ben found his way back to the island in like 2 years, widmore is going on 30.

[imascootinspook]

widmore doesnt seem very smart. I dont know that any of this is true, but it could be. ben found his way back to the island in like 2 years, widmore is going on 30.

Maybe Widmore isn't a risk taker, where Ben is.

[Pung]

widmore doesnt seem very smart. I dont know that any of this is true, but it could be. ben found his way back to the island in like 2 years, widmore is going on 30.

haha. very true. The whole FDW/wormhole/tunisia/can you come back?/where's the island? thing is something that is hard to find out ahead of time. I think there is a lot more to Widmore that we need to find out.

[abcd1234]

he doesnt seem too cowardly, just not that smart. not that he is dumb, but ben seems to be really intelligent. in any case, widmore couldnt find the island until desmond blew up the swan, so I would have to guess he was looking for it for like 20-some-odd years.

[notsolost42]

he doesnt seem too cowardly, just not that smart. not that he is dumb, but ben seems to be really intelligent. in any case, widmore couldnt find the island until desmond blew up the swan, so I would have to guess he was looking for it for like 20-some-odd years.

Rude and annoying? Wow. What a guy.....

[ricorose]

I'm a first time poster and I'm fascinated with the discussion here going on. While watching the show I often thougt about Schroedingers cat but not in terms of the many-world-theories.

Schroedinger created his theoretical cat-experiment not only to point out that the cat is alive AND dead in the same time, but to illustrate the importance of the observer: the destiny of the cat remains in superposition (both: alive and dead) untill someone opens the box and watches. In this moment of watching the destiny of the cat jumps to 100% alive or to 100% dead. (This jumping-as-someone-watches-phenomen was indeed proven for protons which normally prefer to remain in superposition when not watched.)... There is no reality untill someone watches. Watching/observing creates reality, the observer is the one who creates reality and forces "things" to leave superposition. It’s all about the observer and his subjective reality. This is the main idea behind Schroedingers cat.

Sometimes I thought that the invisible island needs the Oceanic-passengers as witnesses/observers/reality-creators. They are a very careful chosen collective – everyone with his own way of looking at things, everyone lead into temptation and despair by the island – but in the end they all will observe/experience a collective „objective“ reality as they were one single observer and sowith create this new reality of higher purpose.

Does this make any sense to you?
(ohh... and does my english make any sense?)

[dreadstar]

Ricorose, you've got it on the head.

Forcing protons out of superposition is the equivalent of collapsing a wave function; the observer "pushes" the protons into a single result, as opposed to the multiple ones co-existing in superposition.

On that note, does anyone else believe the plane that was found at the bottom of the ocean is, in actuality, THE 815 flight? Not a set-up or ruse, but the actual 815 plane....could we have conflicting results on the collapse of a wave function? Could this, in turn, be the reason why the universe is trying to course-correct? Just wondering.....

[chester]

I'm a first time poster and I'm fascinated with the discussion here going on. While watching the show I often thougt about Schroedingers cat but not in terms of the many-world-theories.

Schroedinger created his theoretical cat-experiment not only to point out that the cat is alive AND dead in the same time, but to illustrate the importance of the observer: the destiny of the cat remains in superposition (both: alive and dead) untill someone opens the box and watches. In this moment of watching the destiny of the cat jumps to 100% alive or to 100% dead. (This jumping-as-someone-watches-phenomen was indeed proven for protons which normally prefer to remain in superposition when not watched.)... There is no reality untill someone watches. Watching/observing creates reality, the observer is the one who creates reality and forces "things" to leave superposition. It’s all about the observer and his subjective reality. This is the main idea behind Schroedingers cat.

Sometimes I thought that the invisible island needs the Oceanic-passengers as witnesses/observers/reality-creators. They are a very careful chosen collective – everyone with his own way of looking at things, everyone lead into temptation and despair by the island – but in the end they all will observe/experience a collective „objective“ reality as they were one single observer and sowith create this new reality of higher purpose.

Does this make any sense to you?
(ohh... and does my english make any sense?)

Welcome to the forum ricorose, and thanks for taking part your input is most appreciated. And your English is better than alot of natives to the language that post on here (assuming your comment indicated the English is your second language.

I absolutely agree with what you just said. You probably put it much more clearly than I did. The observer-as-reality-creator notion was the pure extention of quantum mechanics into our macro world of human interaction. It's called the Copenhagen interpretation, I believe. Championed by Bohr, who had a long running intellectual fued with Einstein over the issue (and kicked his butt by the way).

Einstein's way out of this dilemma, as he saw it, was that there was a as-yet-undetected 'clockwork' in operation that did the job the thought experiment seemed to be attributing to conscious observation. My understanding was that experiments which showed "action at a distance" also showed that that there couldn't be a "hidden variable", as Einstein suggested, because it's speed would still need to be restricted to the speed of light, and this "action at a distance" was occurring instantaneously.

The multiple universes hypothesis was another solution, which however, has gained more popularity in books and TV than it has at the serious end of moden physics.

[chester]

Ricorose, you've got it on the head.

Forcing protons out of superposition is the equivalent of collapsing a wave function; the observer "pushes" the protons into a single result, as opposed to the multiple ones co-existing in superposition.

On that note, does anyone else believe the plane that was found at the bottom of the ocean is, in actuality, THE 815 flight? Not a set-up or ruse, but the actual 815 plane....could we have conflicting results on the collapse of a wave function? Could this, in turn, be the reason why the universe is trying to course-correct? Just wondering.....

YES!!! Lissa-Marie has posted on this in the Theories section......VERY interesting. http://www.lost.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5530

[notsolost42]

I'm a first time poster and I'm fascinated with the discussion here going on. While watching the show I often thougt about Schroedingers cat but not in terms of the many-world-theories.

Schroedinger created his theoretical cat-experiment not only to point out that the cat is alive AND dead in the same time, but to illustrate the importance of the observer: the destiny of the cat remains in superposition (both: alive and dead) untill someone opens the box and watches. In this moment of watching the destiny of the cat jumps to 100% alive or to 100% dead. (This jumping-as-someone-watches-phenomen was indeed proven for protons which normally prefer to remain in superposition when not watched.)... There is no reality untill someone watches. Watching/observing creates reality, the observer is the one who creates reality and forces "things" to leave superposition. It’s all about the observer and his subjective reality. This is the main idea behind Schroedingers cat.

Sometimes I thought that the invisible island needs the Oceanic-passengers as witnesses/observers/reality-creators. They are a very careful chosen collective – everyone with his own way of looking at things, everyone lead into temptation and despair by the island – but in the end they all will observe/experience a collective „objective“ reality as they were one single observer and sowith create this new reality of higher purpose.

Does this make any sense to you?
(ohh... and does my english make any sense?)

Welcome to the forum. I am happy to see the real physicists coming forward! What you are saying makes perfect sense. It fits both the physics and the black and white theme and variations of in the show. So, pardon my less than perfect knowledge of physics, but you are speaking about particles and vertual particles then? Could the collective reality with a higher purpose of the losties be that of the true nature of the island? It's higher purpose?

[dreadstar]

Less of the idea of "virtual" particles, and more of the idea that all particles are "virtual" (that is, they literally are everything and nothing, everywhere and nowhere....which is the state of superposition) until forced into picking a position by observation. At least that is how I'm reading it....

Here's a interesting fact...did you know that the electrons that race around our neural connections are actually in a state of superposition? They are in several positions at once, and some postulate that those same electrons are actually existing outside your body simultaneously. Odd, huh?

[notsolost42]

Less of the idea of "virtual" particles, and more of the idea that all particles are "virtual" (that is, they literally are everything and nothing, everywhere and nowhere....which is the state of superposition) until forced into picking a position by observation. At least that is how I'm reading it....

Here's a interesting fact...did you know that the electrons that race around our neural connections are actually in a state of superposition? They are in several positions at once, and some postulate that those same electrons are actually existing outside your body simultaneously. Odd, huh?

Thanks for clarifying for me. As for our neural connections, that sounds cool and not odd at all. Perhaps this is the start of explaining ones conscious then. Your brain is a big electrical circuit, right? Your neurons have to fire to work, right? So, are they ionized electrons? Accounts for good and bad people! LOL! I think I am getting carried away!

[abcd1234]

its not just neural system electrons, this happens to many excited electrons, where they are moving so fast they actually have been recorded to exist in two locations at the same point in time. there is a cool example of this in a movie "what the bleep: down the rabbit hole". Its actually a very easy to watch documentary. Im sure no one cares, please continue to copy and paste your wiki documents.

[chester]

its not just neural system electrons, this happens to many excited electrons, where they are moving so fast they actually have been recorded to exist in two locations at the same point in time. there is a cool example of this in a movie "what the bleep: down the rabbit hole". Its actually a very easy to watch documentary. Im sure no one cares, please continue to copy and paste your wiki documents.

Hey, I care a.b.

I reckon that is an amazing movie. Lots and lots of different point of views on one pretty specific topic. Would love for someone to summarise it, and post points that might be applicable to whats going on in LOST.

[abcd1234]

I used to work at this film company, where i had the crappy job of making copies of DVDs for whoever needed them, and the only perk was that I could make copies of any of the DVDs in the library. I heard this movie was good, it had some buzz, but I had no idea it was a documentary. so, for someone who doesnt typically seek out documentaries, especially ones about science, I thought it was pretty interesting.

As for relevance to lost, it may have some relevance or none, but it deals with the big bang theory, how all matter supposedly came from the same source and is related, the whole electron thing that was mentioned in the last few posts. other then that, it covers all types of things that are in science and physics. it is related as much as any of the other five thousand pages of crap I have read regarding every theory of time travel and quantum physics. whatever, why should I have to even point out the relevance, none of any of the questions I have posted have been addressed because the quasi-intellectuals in this forum would have to use actual thought rather then google or wikipedia to answer them.

[chester]

I used to work at this film company, where i had the crappy job of making copies of DVDs for whoever needed them, and the only perk was that I could make copies of any of the DVDs in the library. I heard this movie was good, it had some buzz, but I had no idea it was a documentary. so, for someone who doesnt typically seek out documentaries, especially ones about science, I thought it was pretty interesting.

As for relevance to lost, it may have some relevance or none, but it deals with the big bang theory, how all matter supposedly came from the same source and is related, the whole electron thing that was mentioned in the last few posts. other then that, it covers all types of things that are in science and physics. it is related as much as any of the other five thousand pages of crap I have read regarding every theory of time travel and quantum physics. whatever, why should I have to even point out the relevance, none of any of the questions I have posted have been addressed because the quasi-intellectuals in this forum would have to use actual thought rather then google or wikipedia to answer them.

If you've got any spare copies, my address is.... LOL..... its been awhile since I have seen it to be honest.

Can you post your questions again somewhere, have you been asking your questions ......umm...non-agressively? I would be happy to try to answer any that I think I might know about. and I will remember not to offer you any advice on where the information might be located if that information is not located in my head. We're all LOST fans here, lets try to at least recognise and remember this commonality amongst us. (is that even a word??)

:)

[abcd1234]

Thanks chester, although I dont even remember what I had asked. I think most threads come down to either me disagreeing with a scientific theory and being called stupid, or talking about plot theories that end up being hijacked by kate is actually widmore theories (replace "kate" and "widmore" with anyone, on or off the show).

the current question on my mind is who was that guy with the glasses from the episode with the book club? has he ever reappeared?

also where do these other dimensions physically exist? I know imaginary numbers in math exist to complete computations or whatever, even though they arent always tangible, i.e. you can owe someone a dollar but you cant physically own -$1. so if these dimensions are imaginary, do they exist, or not? it doesnt seem feasible that they would be on top of our world and existing as a distorted copy of this dimension

[chester]

I think most threads come down to either me disagreeing with a scientific theory and being called stupid, or talking about plot theories that end up being hijacked by kate is actually widmore theories (replace "kate" and "widmore" with anyone, on or off the show).

LOL way too funny!!

the current question on my mind is who was that guy with the glasses from the episode with the book club? has he ever reappeared?

Adam. And still alive according to lostpedia (:eek:) , I reckon we will see more of him (and his Steven King hating smuggy face :mad:)

also where do these other dimensions physically exist? I know imaginary numbers in math exist to complete computations or whatever, even though they arent always tangible, i.e. you can owe someone a dollar but you cant physically own -$1. so if these dimensions are imaginary, do they exist, or not? it doesnt seem feasible that they would be on top of our world and existing as a distorted copy of this dimension

Any "other dimensions", apart from time, that are talked about in physics are normally associated with string-theory, which I believe to be distinctly different to quantum theory, and is something I have alot of difficulty understanding (past there supposing to be tiny string-like things that permeate the universe and vibrate in multiple dimensions at some frequency/ies according to whatever energy/particle they are suppose to represent). I have enough trouble trying to comprehend time as a free dimesion like the other three - string theory increases that to, what 9?

The multiple universes hypothesis, suggests complete new universes, each with their own 4 dimentions, differing only in the outcome of whatever particular event is supposed to separate them (and whatever diffences flow on from that). I guess they are supposed to "exist" in the same thing that the universe we know about exists - whatever that is. Aparently it's a quantum soup, some kind of potential where all the matter and energy we "experience" comes from.

[abcd1234]

I just dont see how a dimension officially exists whenever a seperate path of possibilites appears. I can see the idea that if you do one thing, X happens and if you do another Y happens, but its hard to comprehend that both happen and exist layered upon each other, becasuse there are infinite possibilites happenining every few seconds. for example, I dont know, what if nixon wasnt impeached. the world events would definately be different today if that event never happened, but I dont know that I think there is another dimension where this is the reality - at least not in real life. in sci-fi hey whatever, thats cool.

string theory I will have to read more about to see if I can grasp it better.

adam - around for a while? he seems older, I wonder how long he was on the island

[chester]

I just dont see how a dimension officially exists whenever a seperate path of possibilites appears. I can see the idea that if you do one thing, X happens and if you do another Y happens, but its hard to comprehend that both happen and exist layered upon each other, becasuse there are infinite possibilites happenining every few seconds. for example, I dont know, what if nixon wasnt impeached. the world events would definately be different today if that event never happened, but I dont know that I think there is another dimension where this is the reality - at least not in real life. in sci-fi hey whatever, thats cool.

string theory I will have to read more about to see if I can grasp it better.

adam - around for a while? he seems older, I wonder how long he was on the island

LOL Sh*t dude, if you understood THAT you'd be my new hero. But that seems to be the sort of thing thats going on (in real life!, according to the physicists). All of what you see of modern technology, the pixels on your screen included, owes itself to that mathematics, which leads to those ridiculous conclusions. I'm still waiting for someone to give me the answers. There are no educational facilities offering at that knowledge at this point in time that I am aware of ......;)

Hey, it would be a good thing to make a TV show out of though, loosely and all, of course - keep the fi in the sci-fi.....

[abcd1234]

but if all the matter that has ever existed exists now, wouldnt all these new possibilities create new dimensions demanding the rapid growth of new dimensions every second?

I am putting away my cape, looks like I wont be a hero today hahaha

[ricorose]

you know a lot of physicists dealing with Quantum Mechanics became buddhists to not longer to suffer the cleft between marco and mirco world. the rest is looking for the grand unified theory and becoming insane.
Of course the many-world-theory is only a try to merge the strange observations made in the world of smallest particels with "our real" world - there are no multiple universes. On the other hand: there are no logical explanations for what the hell is going on with the smallest particels which we consider to be the modules of our world and ourselfes - why can smallest particels communicate faster than with light speed, but we, made of these particals, are bound to light speed? Why can particels remain in superposition (dead and alive), but we can only experience life or death?
Maybe we haven't tried hard enough and we CAN do everything the particels can do we are made of... I mean this drives everybody crazy and one of the results to answer this paradox is the many-world-theory. Another conclusion is: nothing is real, everything is an illusion (that won't help to stay sane either).

Since the nature of the smallest particels was discovered the suicede-rate among physicists increesed dramatically. But literature and art were inspired too to answer this paradox, mostly getting to this third conclusion: we CAN do everything the smallest particals can do - we just don't know how to use our powers yet. Here comes the buddhism in again. There is a great book by Fritjof Capra "The Tao Of Physics" - check the amazon reviews to get an idea how this scientist "converted" to faith and why. He explains very easy to follow the basics of Quantum Mechanics.

However: since there is absolutely NO proof for what the universe is really made of and why the smallest particels contradict everything we believe to know, Lost is lost in speculations / free to speculate like the rest of us. And this makes the show so great to me.

Forget about "are there really multiple universes?" / "would Schroedingers Cat really be dead and alive?" - there is no "really" or proof or any science which would have any answer to this. Nobody knows (I mean NOBODY) and everybody is thrown back to the question: but what do I believe? Do I prefer to ignore things I can't explain (Jack and Einstein) or am I ready to accept things I can't explain (Locke and Capra).

I think the physics and the mysticism in this show are the very same thing - they mirror exactly this point: what do I believe if everything I ever knew turns out to be untrue.

BTW: I was also afraid, that the set-up 815 in the ocean is our 815. But then the O6 could never have returned home (where they are known/observed to be dead) - this is just not possible (even if quantum mechanics would work for our marco-world). A person might be dead and alive in the same time but as soon as there are witnesses/observers around this person has to be alive or dead. It just wouldn't make any sense and I very trust in the writers fascination and understanding of the mysteries of Quantum Mechanics...

[dreadstar]

[/QUOTE]
BTW: I was also afraid, that the set-up 815 in the ocean is our 815. But then the O6 could never have returned home (where they are known/observed to be dead) - this is just not possible (even if quantum mechanics would work for our marco-world). A person might be dead and alive in the same time but as soon as there are witnesses/observers around this person has to be alive or dead. It just wouldn't make any sense and I very trust in the writers fascination and understanding of the mysteries of Quantum Mechanics...[/QUOTE]

Actually.....
That's a weird thing. In the double-slit experiments, they did have one electron that ended up in two distinct spots AFTER observation. If the "split" in probabilities occurred prior to observation, then the two distinct results MAY be able to co-exist. At least that was my understanding of it...on the line of good books describing this, I would also suggest "The Dancing Wu Li Masters". An excellent layman description of the concepts we've discussed here, it bridges physics and philosophy very well.

[notsolost42]

Please visit the website of Dr. Fred Alan Wolf. He is an astrophysicist who is deeply involved in Yoga and Buddism. He has written several books on quantum physics, time travel and the Buddist beliefs. There are several free downloads on his site as well. He is a fan of Lost and I exchange emails with him on occasion about the show and bounce my quantum theories off of him. He believes, as Buddah did, that time travel is possible and not just science fiction. He believes, as I do, that through yoga and quantum physics, time is really just a projection of our minds. Time can stand still through meditation. I studied yoga quite a very long time ago in New York City, way back when it was a popular activity of a certain subculture. In other words, in the sixties when I was a little hippie girl! LOL!!! But, I have to say that it opened my mind to many things. Being a creature of science and evidentuary findings, at first it was difficult to blend the two ideas. But, as the Sanskrit even shows, they are all connected. It has always been an ancient belief that time, space and the mind are interconnected. Science is at the threshold of this and at some point, I believe we will unlock these secrets.
I appreciate your explanation of waves earlier. I know that there were equations relating to wave theory on one of Dan Faraday's journal entries. Not having ever studied physics before my readings for the show, I thank you for clarifying the concept for me. I feel that my studies of meditation and yoga in my youth are what gave me the ability to think in an abstract manner and grasp quantum physics to a point.
I thank you and Chester for your valuable input and explanations of quantum physics. It's nice to see that more people who have a great understanding of science and do not act aggressively towards another when they post about it and are able to so eloquently express their ideas to others.

[dreadstar]

Ha! Quite true. Same coin, different sides.
What's the difference between science and belief? Spelling. :)

Also, thank you as well, Notso, as you have constantly introduced new ideas for me to chew upon. Maybe not all apply to Lost, but some definitely do, and nontheless, the concepts are always intriguing. Thanks!

[notsolost42]

Ha! Quite true. Same coin, different sides.
What's the difference between science and belief? Spelling. :)

Also, thank you as well, Notso, as you have constantly introduced new ideas for me to chew upon. Maybe not all apply to Lost, but some definitely do, and nontheless, the concepts are always intriguing. Thanks!

Since I have no formal training in physics, what so ever, I thank you very much but feel that together, we can sort it all out and explain it! You sound as though you have had actual, formal training in physics verses my self taught version and seem to be able to explain things in laymans terms better than I.

[S L P]

. . also where do these other dimensions physically exist? . . .

where they likened it to drawing a stick figure and scene on a piece of paper. The stick being's awareness is confined to this 2D universe. Our 3D world would be incomprehensible.

Poke your pencil through the paper. What, if anything, would the stick being experience?

Imagine stacking a bunch of these drawings one on top of the other. There would be no knowledge of or interactions between each other.

Stack them as high as you want to infinity!

[notsolost42]

where they likened it to drawing a stick figure and scene on a piece of paper. The stick being's awareness is confined to this 2D universe. Our 3D world would be incomprehensible.

Poke your pencil through the paper. What, if anything, would the stick being experience?

Imagine stacking a bunch of these drawings one on top of the other. There would be no knowledge of or interactions between each other.

Stack them as high as you want to infinity!

Very well said!!! Great job!!!!