"Sacrifice" questions

[islander]

When Christian and Locke were together near the wheel they had what seems like a strange dialogue :

Locke: Richard said I was going to die."

Christian: "I suppose that's why they call it a sacrifice."

Locke: "Alright. I'm ready."

....................................

First, what did Christian mean when he used the word "they"? They who? A generic 'they' or someone specific?

Second, you would think John might have additional questions, like wanting to see the memo detailing where he became the sacrifice.

Third, I don't think John actually talked anyone into going back which is what he thought he was supposed to do. They just needed someone to fill a coffin, and he was it.

Fourth, when I think of other "sarifices" Charlie comes to mind because he knew he was going to die, as did John, but what other characters have sacrificed themselves for the island or their friends?

And lastly, are the O6 sacrificing themselves by returning to the island?

[bunnydixon]

dont forget that boone was a sacrifice the island demanded ;)

i watched an episode recently from S3 and they mentioned sacrifice and it kinda got my attention a wee bit in that hindsight way lol and now its gonna bug me as i cant really remember what it was!!! bah!

[islander]

dont forget that boone was a sacrifice the island demanded ;)

i watched an episode recently from S3 and they mentioned sacrifice and it kinda got my attention a wee bit in that hindsight way lol and now its gonna bug me as i cant really remember what it was!!! bah!

Didn't John say that Boone was a sacrifice that the island demanded? I never understood that. Boone pretty much died for nothing unlike Charlie or Locke. Same with Alex, you could argue Ben sacrificed her, but it didn't seem like her death helped anyone else.

Didn't Des and Brother Campbell have a conversation about sacrifice? I will hunt for that.

[ortrules]

Didn't John say that Boone was a sacrifice that the island demanded? I never understood that. Boone pretty much died for nothing unlike Charlie or Locke. Same with Alex, you could argue Ben sacrificed her, but it didn't seem like her death helped anyone else.

Didn't Des and Brother Campbell have a conversation about sacrifice? I will hunt for that.

I guess you could make an argument that Boone was "sacrificed" so that Aaron could be born - given that both events happened at the same exact time.

But really, I think Locke's use of the word sacrifice was just a qualifier to make himself feel better.

[ortrules]

After Jack helped Sawyer and Kate escape by holding Ben hostage in the operating room - Kate made it a mission to go save Jack. She mentioned that Jack sacrificed himself to save them and this was something she needed to do so that it wasn't for nothing.

[bunnydixon]

the brother campbell & desmond thing sounds familiar....

[ortrules]

the brother campbell & desmond thing sounds familiar....

Lostpedia to the rescue!

[Desmond looks at the “Moriah Vineyards” label]
DESMOND: Moriah. I find the name the brothers have chosen for the wine made here, interesting.
MONK: And why is that brother?
DESMOND: Well Moriah's the mountain where Abraham was asked to kill Isaac. Its not exactly the most, festive locale is it.
MONK: And yet God spared Isaac.
DESMOND: Well one might argue then, God may not have asked Abraham to sacrifice his son in the first place.
MONK: Well then it wouldn't have been much of a test, would it brother? Perhaps you underestimate the value of sacrifice.


Amazing how much this conversation mirrors the one between Christian and Locke, and what happens to Locke mimics the story of Isaac.

[bunnydixon]

thanks ort!!

im so lazy :D (and im kinda watching tv at the same time too *gasp*)

[islander]

Here is that dialogue between Desmond and Brother Campbell:

Desmond: "Well, one might argue that God need not have asked Abraham to sacrifice his son in the first place."

Brother Campbell: "Well then, it wouldn't have been much of test, would it, brother? Perhaps you underestimate the power of sacrifice."

The "power of sacrifice"... what does that mean?

[beachblinkette]

Here is that dialogue between Desmond and Brother Campbell:

Desmond: "Well, one might argue that God need not have asked Abraham to sacrifice his son in the first place."

Brother Campbell: "Well then, it wouldn't have been much of test, would it, brother? Perhaps you underestimate the power of sacrifice."

The "power of sacrifice"... what does that mean?
To me the power of sacrifice means that it ends the cycle of vengeance and reprisal in human groups. We have a code of laws and judges who mete out reprisals for the violence people do.One act equals one reprisal. The end.

Primitive societies may not have that. They are in danger of being destroyed because the endless cycle of violence and payback can escalate to the point where they completely destroy themselves.


This may be why the purge happened. And why Richard had to have a sacrifice of Paul's body. He had to quell the cycle of violence and reprisal in human societies.

This is why IMO Juliet had to be sacrificed by being branded. Her violent act of shooting Bonnie's husband needed a reprisal or sacrifice. If there had been no sacrifice the level of vengeance would have increased and possibly destroyed the Others.

This also applies to why John had to kill Cooper. Cooper's acts of violence needed a reprisal not only for John but for Sawyer and many others. This may be why Richard, the peacekeeper, had to show John the file on Sawyer. When Cooper died, or was sacrificed, the cycle of vengeance was satisfied. People were calmed or placated.

John was sacrificed so that the 06 would return to the island.
Who were these people sacrificed for-- in one way or another?
Christian
The Marshall
Nadia
Charlie
Claire
Michael
Jin
Montand and crew
Charlotte
Ana Lucia
Libby
Alex, Carl and Danielle
Boone
Shannon's Dad
the pregnant lady Christian killed
Mr. Eko and all the rest?????

[TuesdaySmith]

First, what did Christian mean when he used the word "they"? They who? A generic 'they' or someone specific?

Second, you would think John might have additional questions, like wanting to see the memo detailing where he became the sacrifice.

Third, I don't think John actually talked anyone into going back which is what he thought he was supposed to do. They just needed someone to fill a coffin, and he was it.

Fourth, when I think of other "sarifices" Charlie comes to mind because he knew he was going to die, as did John, but what other characters have sacrificed themselves for the island or their friends?

And lastly, are the O6 sacrificing themselves by returning to the island?

I think "they" was just a generic "they".. as in "they say, don't count your chickens before they hatch" or whatever.

I don't think that John asked questions because to him it was just true, no matter what happened.. like, he already believed that the island needed certain sacrifices and he already believed that something bigger than everyone was happening.. so, when he learned that he needed to be a sacrifice, he thought about it for a second, and was just like ok, if that's what the island needs, then that's what will have to happen (no matter the outcome).

I think that John met up with the others more times than we were shown.. someone at some point says something to someone else that Locke said to them, but we didn't see that "scene".. it happened but we weren't shown it.. I can't remember the specifics about who said what.. someone here will remember, I'm sure.. but I think that shows that Locke had more conversations with the other guys than we have seen.

I can't think of other sacrifices.. as least not ones where it was there choice. Oh, wait, Ms. Klue told Patchy to shoot her. Does she count?

I think there's a good chance the O6 are sacrificing themselves, but they just might not know it yet.

[TuesdaySmith]

Didn't John say that Boone was a sacrifice that the island demanded? I never understood that. Boone pretty much died for nothing unlike Charlie or Locke. Same with Alex, you could argue Ben sacrificed her, but it didn't seem like her death helped anyone else.


Maybe it was because his "sacrifice" was just an event that needed to happen in order for other things to happen.. not that it was Boone exactly that needed to be sacrificed, but that Boone's relationship with Locke led them to explore which led them to be in that place at that time, which led Boone to be the one to go up to the plane, which led him to play with the radio and talk to Bernard (which had it's own effects), which caused the plane to fall.. it's like a Choose Your Own Adventure..

Shannon freaks out and wants a gun because Boone is dead.. everything that happens after that was because (among other things) Boone died.

Eko finds the plane and Yemi.. everything happened because Boone died.

Etc..

But, this could be argued for pretty much everything that happens, not just Boone's death.

[TuesdaySmith]

Here is that dialogue between Desmond and Brother Campbell:

Desmond: "Well, one might argue that God need not have asked Abraham to sacrifice his son in the first place."

Brother Campbell: "Well then, it wouldn't have been much of test, would it, brother? Perhaps you underestimate the power of sacrifice."

The "power of sacrifice"... what does that mean?

For the willing, I think that sacrifice is anything anyone gives up, which of no benefit to themselves, makes other people's lives better.

For the unwilling, I think that sacrifice is taking something to serve a purpose.

[islander]

Lots of good observations.

As Hawking has become more important, Brother Campbell has become more important in my mind. So when he tells Des he doesn't understand the power of sacrifice, and Des tells Hawking he is never going back to the island, it makes me think the four years Des spent on the island are not the sacrifice Brother Campbell was talking about. Des has more work to do and it involves a major sacrifice on his part.

[clight01]

I can't help but also think about how Widmore continually referred to Desmond as a coward. Perhaps he knows or believes that Desmond will not be willing to make the required sacrifice?

[Baibe]

Which would be... losing Penny, Charlie or dying himself? If Penny and/or Charlie is dead.. maybe that is his sacrifice.

[Rosebud]

Jin is not dead

[danielle]

In your post you refer to the theme of "sacrifice" . You also refer to this as being particularly important when the theme of "choice" is also relevant. I think "choice has a huge part to play in the series. It goes back to "the moth" in series one, when Locke is trying to get Charlie to voluntarily turn his back on heroine. He tries to get Charlie to understand the importance of the difference between giving something up voluntarily as opposed to having the decision forced upon him. Although the physical outcome will be the same ((ie the supply of heroine will run out) the benefit of taking the voluntary choice makes you mentally stronger.

This choice mirrors others like the choice between how Locke will die ie suicide v murder, or the conversation that Brother Campbell has with Des about the Sacrifice that Isaac has to make on the mountain. ie the important part is the choice behind the sacrifice ie it has to be willing.

[beachblinkette]

Which would be... losing Penny, Charlie or dying himself? If Penny and/or Charlie is dead.. maybe that is his sacrifice.
I see it that way, too. Desmond has already been through this with Charlie. It's called foreshadowing, I think. Is he going to have to realize that there is no way out for him, just like there was none for Charlie? But even Charlie "saved" his death until he found something worth dying or sacrificing for--the safety of Claire and Aaron. So, does Desmond's being "special" mean that he can avoid and reserve his death norder to choose his being sacrificed? Charlie had Desmond to warn him, maybe Charlie will warn Desmond? Or Desmond, because he is special, will be on his own BIG learning curve in the future! I don't see him being a coward then.

The cycle of violence and vengeance is escalating with the hostiles and the Di. That was apparent in last night's show. The community becomes so agitated that a scapegoat is chosen and sacrificed. Soon there will be a sacrifice- a death. After this there will be a period of calm. The scapegoat will need to be sacrificed in order for the community to survive. Many myths contains this pattern or element. This is how the cycle of violence and vengeance in human societies works. It is as old as time!! Unless rules are set up to control this cycle, it can magnify to a point and utterly destroy them. We are witnessing what has been going on in human societies for eons.

[islander]

In your post you refer to the theme of "sacrifice" . You also refer to this as being particularly important when the theme of "choice" is also relevant. I think "choice has a huge part to play in the series. It goes back to "the moth" in series one, when Locke is trying to get Charlie to voluntarily turn his back on heroine. He tries to get Charlie to understand the importance of the difference between giving something up voluntarily as opposed to having the decision forced upon him. Although the physical outcome will be the same ((ie the supply of heroine will run out) the benefit of taking the voluntary choice makes you mentally stronger.

This choice mirrors others like the choice between how Locke will die ie suicide v murder, or the conversation that Brother Campbell has with Des about the Sacrifice that Isaac has to make on the mountain. ie the important part is the choice behind the sacrifice ie it has to be willing.

I like your thought, and assuming Brother Campbell is a genuine monk, I think he'd agree with you....to choose to sacrifice is more powerful than being sacrificed.

[Rosebud]

Remember when Desmond and Penny were at the pier and Desmond told Penny we are not meant to be together...because he was told by Mrs. Hawkins told him they can't be together and the most important thing he would do is turn the key on the island...so he was not meant to be with Penny ever. Desmond sacrified his love for Penny, but then got back to Penny. I still don't think Desmond is done with the Island. I am courious if Ben came back and did do something to Penny...if this is so...Desmond will come back to kill Ben. I have an inclination that Sayid's reason for coming back is to kill Ben after seeing him in the jail cell. I think we will see this in the next episode and Sayid will be hurt or killed. Since it is in the past and Sayid is still alive in the future..I am not sure..just a thought...I do beleive the group will come together again as a family..the DI will be distroyed and ??? who knows what will happen.

[Dead but Here]

The conversation with Des and the Monk is very interesting.... Considering Des 'sacrificed' one Charlie, and now has a son named Charlie. I wonder if getting back to the island will involve some sort of symbolic sacrifice of his son.

[islander]

Remember when Desmond and Penny were at the pier and Desmond told Penny we are not meant to be together...because he was told by Mrs. Hawkins told him they can't be together and the most important thing he would do is turn the key on the island...so he was not meant to be with Penny ever. Desmond sacrified his love for Penny, but then got back to Penny. I still don't think Desmond is done with the Island. I am courious if Ben came back and did do something to Penny...if this is so...Desmond will come back to kill Ben. I have an inclination that Sayid's reason for coming back is to kill Ben after seeing him in the jail cell. I think we will see this in the next episode and Sayid will be hurt or killed. Since it is in the past and Sayid is still alive in the future..I am not sure..just a thought...I do beleive the group will come together again as a family..the DI will be distroyed and ??? who knows what will happen.

If you just look at the parents: Walt's parents are dead, Ji Yeon's are on the island in different spacetimes, and young Charlie's are probably the next to get taken away...wierd...I never noticed that before.

[Rosebud]

OK, who areJi Yeon's parents on the island...???????, explain. I am now very confussed...Did I miss something.?????

[jasonm222]

Ji yeons parents are Jin and Sun

[islander]

Ji yeons parents are Jin and Sun

y...same island, just 30 years apart in time.

[Rosebud]

But Ji Yang isn't on the island...is she????confussed...

[islander]

But Ji Yang isn't on the island...is she????confussed...

No, that's what i was trying to say. none of the kids are on the island right now but all the parents are either dead or on the island. (not counting claire's SO). I can't figure out how all that works out. Does Sun/Jin get reunited with Ji Yeon and Claire with Aaron?

[Rosebud]

I think they will down the road. I am wondering if they will explain when the show is over. I hope they go over the whole story in short..so we will understand all the details. I sure hope so...this will drive me bonkers if it they do not go over it all...from the beginning...There are lots of things people don't understand and need explaining. Many viewers are confused and want answers including me. I think everyone who landed on the Island need peace within themselves and I know Jacob will give it to them. I know I am getting off the subject of the thread but what are others ideas about the show ending with all the details..do you think the director will have an entire senario of the show. What do you all think????

[Richard_Cranium]

No, that's what i was trying to say. none of the kids are on the island right now but all the parents are either dead or on the island. (not counting claire's SO). I can't figure out how all that works out. Does Sun/Jin get reunited with Ji Yeon and Claire with Aaron?

clairs dad is on the island "Christian"