hey! time travel experts, help me out!!

[addictedtopainmeds]

people are saying that if our hero's die in '77 then they will still be born 'mainland' in which ever year they were born in. ok, if that is the case, what if one of our hero's, say, i don't know, jack, doesn't die in the past. then he will continue to age as time goes forward. so...it is possible that christian could be '77 jack....could this be possible???

[Newbie]

people are saying that if our hero's die in '77 then they will still be born 'mainland' in which ever year they were born in. ok, if that is the case, what if one of our hero's, say, i don't know, jack, doesn't die in the past. then he will continue to age as time goes forward. so...it is possible that christian could be '77 jack....could this be possible???

Are you suggesting the Christian talking with Sun/Frank is a older jack??
I don't think that is true

[addictedtopainmeds]

Are you suggesting the Christian talking with Sun/Frank is a older jack??
I don't think that is true

think about it a little longer. the math works out. we don't know how christian died. locke never told ben he spoke to christian...i think i believe this idea more than any other one i have thought of or heard...

[addictedtopainmeds]

yes! i think it makes perfect sense. everyone try and find a connection that christian could be an older jack. or any non-connections as well. i would like to see if this theory can be proved or disproved...it's buggin' me now!!!!

[agmic]

so when Jack sees Christian in the jungle, he's really just talking to himself ????

[addictedtopainmeds]

so when Jack sees Christian in the jungle, he's really just talking to himself ????

yes! we know its possible. john could have ran into himself. what is important is that every time jack saw him, he lead him somewhere....

[Newbie]

And how about "Ray" his Grandpa...He's just another even older jack.??

[Missie]

Christain appears off the island. And he tells Locke he is Christian and she "Say Hi to my son."
So Im not buying it. Im hoping for a more supernatural explaniation.

[addictedtopainmeds]

Christain appears off the island. And he tells Locke he is Christian and she "Say Hi to my son."
So Im not buying it. Im hoping for a more supernatural explaniation.

of course he can go off the island. he's the new and improved jack. and i assume that if '77 jack raised himself, he may actually consider our jack his son. and to tell you the truth, what else could he have said to john to convince jack to come back?

[addictedtopainmeds]

And how about "Ray" his Grandpa...He's just another even older jack.??

possible, depending on how many times these events have happened

[RuLe976]

I believe the 77 losties might age and still be there in 04, i just posted something like that as a question but I do not think Christian is Jack. I really do think some of them if not all of them age and are still on the island in 04 when the plane crashes, it could happen.

[addictedtopainmeds]

I believe the 77 losties might age and still be there in 04, i just posted something like that as a question but I do not think Christian is Jack. I really do think some of them if not all of them age and are still on the island in 04 when the plane crashes, it could happen.

yes, i do as well. but i believe that Christian is jack because if '77 jack knew everything that went down, wouldn't he try and guide his younger self in a better direction? plus, has ben ever seen christian? maybe '77 jack creates jacob in an attempt to confuse him...

[notsolost42]

think about it a little longer. the math works out. we don't know how christian died. locke never told ben he spoke to christian...i think i believe this idea more than any other one i have thought of or heard...

Christian most likely drank himself to death. Not improbable at all. Obviously, it was nothing suspicious because there was no autopsy. Christian is Christian and Jack is Jack. No one is anyone else!!!!! It makes no sense what so ever!!!!!

[agmic]

NO, Christian is not the older Jack. Christian is dead and now is Jacob.....

[addictedtopainmeds]

Christian most likely drank himself to death. Not improbable at all. Obviously, it was nothing suspicious because there was no autopsy. Christian is Christian and Jack is Jack. No one is anyone else!!!!! It makes no sense what so ever!!!!!

sorry, i'm sticking to my guns with this one. is it hard to make sense of because you can't scribble it on a chalkboard? well, sift through that dust and look beyond the numbers...if it makes no sense, prove me wrong 100% and i will be satisfied

[addictedtopainmeds]

NO, Christian is not the older Jack. Christian is dead and now is Jacob.....

yes! jack is jacob!

[notsolost42]

sorry, i'm sticking to my guns with this one. is it hard to make sense of because you can't scribble it on a chalkboard? well, sift through that dust and look beyond the numbers...if it makes no sense, prove me wrong 100% and i will be satisfied

Hey, you can stick to whatever you want. Believe me, I will not stop you!!!

[addictedtopainmeds]

Hey, you can stick to whatever you want. Believe me, I will not stop you!!!

this thread asked kind folks like you to either bunk or debunk my theory. so, prove me wrong...i am actually wanting this now. in my mind, if i can come back with a logical answer to every comment against my theory, it will have a leg to stand on...

[Panda]

I am glad that i found it myself...this topic.

Do you mean that Jack experiences what Christian experienced in 77?
But it concerns different two different persons father and son.

Or do you mean that Christian is just experiencing again what he already experienced in 77 but just forgot about it....till his dead body crashes upon that Island.
And because of the strange ways of the Island he appears in two versions on the Island?
The one being Christian at the age he died.
The other being Christian at the age he had in those days that he was on that Island before....and is manifesting as Jack?
So Jack is in fact the younger Christian?

Just some questions to see if I get to understand your theory.

In that case it means that Locke was never on that Island before...only in 2004 for the first time.

So when his dead body arrives on the Island in 2007 we may see two locke's as well. But as the age difference between when he was on the Island for the first time and when his dead body returns is not that a big gap....both can be represented by the same actor in one actual age?

[Panda]

So could it be then that Ben is the younger version of Widmore?
And so the reason why they can't kill each other? But they can co-exist of and on Island?

[Lupernikas]

my belief (not that I've got any basis or proof, just cause and effect) is that if you were to die in the past, especially if you were to die BEFORE you are actually born; you tend to derail history and create a paradox because there is no way, in terms of cause and effect, that such an event could possible happen; so History does the equivalent of a Fem-Bot's head exploding...... of course if there are any course-correction theorists out there, please feel free to correct (haha) me....

[Pung]

this thread asked kind folks like you to either bunk or debunk my theory. so, prove me wrong...i am actually wanting this now. in my mind, if i can come back with a logical answer to every comment against my theory, it will have a leg to stand on...

I know that you posted this over a month ago now, but I must have missed this thread when it was on the board. If you still feel the same way about Jack being Christian, then I would tell you that it doesnt make much sense to me. Jack, the baby version, would have been born before 1977. Since Jack dosent arrive in the past until 1977, it would be impossible for him to be off island becoming the father off himslef.

[abcd1234]

Jack is Christian?

[Bluecrew]

I think what he is trying to say is that the character we see in 2004 as Christian is actually Jack 27 years later!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Christian died in 2004 and is dead.

I am also leaning in this direction and here is why:

We know that Miles was able to see himself as a little boy so why can't Jack see himself??

The timing (aging) appears to be accurate.

How would it be possible for a dead Christian to lead Jack to the water near the caves?? But it would be possible for Jack to lead himself to the caves because he has been living there for over 27 years!!

Older Jack never has been too close physically to the Younger Jack. We just all assumed that the character was the dead Christian (a ghost) but why couldn't it be an older Jack???

[TWINKIE6816]

How can this be? We have seen several times young Jack talking to old Christian in the hospital several times off the island! So Jack can not be Christian and vice versa!

[Panda]

I think what he is trying to say is that the character we see in 2004 as Christian is actually Jack 27 years later!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Christian died in 2004 and is dead.
I am also leaning in this direction and here is why:
We know that Miles was able to see himself as a little boy so why can't Jack see himself??
The timing (aging) appears to be accurate.
How would it be possible for a dead Christian to lead Jack to the water near the caves?? But it would be possible for Jack to lead himself to the caves because he has been living there for over 27 years!!
Older Jack never has been too close physically to the Younger Jack. We just all assumed that the character was the dead Christian (a ghost) but why couldn't it be an older Jack???

Thank you very much to explain how you see it.
So on the Island they can meet their younger or their older version, it just depends on how your brains react on the Island and it's properties what it will be?

Does this mean that when Jack crashes on the Island, that when he sees his older self (christian in this case) that he experiences parts of what his "future" will be or at least what he will look like and what he will know in that future time to come? So it means that he should understand that in 27 years he will be still on the Island?

As Jack returned to the Island for as far as I understand it, in 2007 on the ajira flight....he still has like 24 years to go? So in 2031 he will still be an inhabitant of the Isalnd?

[yokogleeton]

How can this be? We have seen several times young Jack talking to old Christian in the hospital several times off the island! So Jack can not be Christian and vice versa!

I'm with you here. For this Jack is Christian theory to be accurate, well where does Jack's mother fit in? Who would "Jack Christian's" father be? Ray?

I'm not thinking Ray and Margo had relations, so what other possibility is there? I'm sticking with the theory that Jack is the son of Christian and they are not the same person.

[VeraLynn]

I'm with you here. For this Jack is Christian theory to be accurate, well where does Jack's mother fit in? Who would "Jack Christian's" father be? Ray?

I'm not thinking Ray and Margo had relations, so what other possibility is there? I'm sticking with the theory that Jack is the son of Christian and they are not the same person.

I agree. Jack had to be born to a mother and a father. Christian raised Jack (off-island) since he was a baby, and presumably did the nasty with Jack's mother to conceive him. You cannot be your own father. End of story. If you still think Christian is an older Jack, then come up with a reasonable explanation as to who Jack's real father is.

[Panda]

I agree. Jack had to be born to a mother and a father. Christian raised Jack (off-island) since he was a baby, and presumably did the nasty with Jack's mother to conceive him. You cannot be your own father. End of story. If you still think Christian is an older Jack, then come up with a reasonable explanation as to who Jack's real father is.

That is true, you can't be your own father.
But many people look a lot like their own parents when they age.
I wasn't thinking that Christian off Island is Jack. But the Christian on Island could be the older Jack.
But indeed, as this person calls himself "Christian" each time....and ask to say "hello tho his son". It does not make much sense.
Unless Jack doesn't remember his name in 27 years and calls himself Christian and that the "hello to my son" reveals that Jack is going to have a son on the Island. Or that he starts to call himself Christian as that Chang guy loves to use other names. Or even like how Sawyer calls himself Sawyer and even Lafleur where his real name is something completely different.

But even all these ideas makes it much to complicated in my opinion.
Would the writers come up with very difficult explications?
To be honest I don't know.
But for each theory that I read, I love to try to understand the one that came up with it.

[yokogleeton]

I agree. Jack had to be born to a mother and a father. Christian raised Jack (off-island) since he was a baby, and presumably did the nasty with Jack's mother to conceive him. You cannot be your own father. End of story. If you still think Christian is an older Jack, then come up with a reasonable explanation as to who Jack's real father is.

well that's just it. I don't think we can 100% rule out the theory, but it's most likely wrong. IF it were true, I feel it would just make all those episodes we watched on jack's backstory less impacting, and while some may argue just the opposite (that it is more impacting) the show has made it a point to delve into the relationships that the characters have with their parents. For someone to have acted as their own parent for all those years...well it just takes away from the story telling, and it would make me like Jack that much less. Not that I was a big jack fan before, but the new, apathetic Jack is someone I'm beginning to enjoy.

[Chronos]

So could it be then that Ben is the younger version of Widmore?
And so the reason why they can't kill each other? But they can co-exist of and on Island?

Ben was born off Island in a time that Widmore had already been on the Island for decades. We could posit that Ben travels back in time to the 50's to be Charles Widmore, but Ben is already older in 2004 than Charles was in 1954 when Locke met him.

Ben and Charles are not the same person.

[abcd1234]

why would christian wear a suit on a deserted island for 27 years?

[VeraLynn]

Let's not forget that Jack was bringing Christian's body to LA. After the crash he found the casket. It was empty. The body was never found. Didn't something similar just happen to Locke? Wasn't Locke a surrogate for Christian on Ajira?

Point being, Christian is Christian, Jack is Jack. This is dumb. (that was bitchy, I'm sorry).

[notsolost42]

why would christian wear a suit on a deserted island for 27 years?

ROFLMAO!!!! Ya know, eventually he did roll up his sleeves!

[Chronos]

Just some questions to see if I get to understand your theory.

In that case it means that Locke was never on that Island before...only in 2004 for the first time.

So when his dead body arrives on the Island in 2007 we may see two locke's as well. But as the age difference between when he was on the Island for the first time and when his dead body returns is not that a big gap....both can be represented by the same actor in one actual age?

Not sure how you make the leap from this "Jack is Christian" theory to stating that Locke was never on the Island before 2004.

Locke skipped through time.... we know he was on the Island in 1954 when he met Richard and Widmore, he was also on the Island when Ethan shot him which was presumably before the Oceanic 815 crash. These are facts, we've seen them.

There can't be two Lockes on the Island in 2007 because Locke did not get stuck in time like Sawyer, Juliet, Miles and Daniel did. Now we also have Jack, Kate, Sayid and Hurley in 1977. Locke skipped through time and at some point he went down the well and pushed the wheel to get off-island. He was off island in 2007 and then went back as a corpse. There is only one Locke.

[Chronos]

this thread asked kind folks like you to either bunk or debunk my theory. so, prove me wrong...i am actually wanting this now. in my mind, if i can come back with a logical answer to every comment against my theory, it will have a leg to stand on...

Okay, here's one question.... why wouldn't Christian (older Jack) tell Sun, when he met her and Lapidus at the Processing Center, something like "Look, I'm Jack... I've been here for 30 years (1977 - 2007), it's so good to know that you made it through the crash... here, let me tell you what happened"?

But that's not what we saw.... Christian introduced himself as Christian and told Sun she has a journey ahead of her. We don't know what that journey will be, but I have a hunch it will involve getting Jack and the '77 losties back to the time they belong.

Seems to me that we will see the Island begin correcting things to their appropriate setting. I believe that Smokie's instructions to Ben to do everything that Locke says indicates that the Island is correcting Ben's destructive, decades-long, meddling. More corrections will come, I'm sure, and Jack will be back to 2007.

[Chronos]

Something else that bothers me about this theory is that it's not consistent with what the writers have presented to us in terms of different actors playing the same character. Here's what we've seen so far, that I can remember:

Baby Ben, teenage Ben, older Ben
Young Sawyer, older Sawyer
Toddler Locke, older Locke
Teenage Widmore, middle-aged Widmore, elderly Widmore
Baby Miles, older Miles
Baby Ethan, teenage Ethan, older Ethan


Each time we've had different actors playing the same character... but we're told so.

Christian is a significant character only because he died... he's a manifestation of the Island's Monster. Before dying he was simply a troubled surgeon with drinking issues, that's all. He wasn't on the Island at any point... he was busy fathering Jack and Claire.

[VeraLynn]

Something else that bothers me about this theory is that it's not consistent with what the writers have presented to us in terms of different actors playing the same character. Here's what we've seen so far, that I can remember:

Baby Ben, teenage Ben, older Ben
Young Sawyer, older Sawyer
Toddler Locke, older Locke
Teenage Widmore, middle-aged Widmore, elderly Widmore
Baby Miles, older Miles
Baby Ethan, teenage Ethan, older Ethan


Each time we've had different actors playing the same character... but we're told so.

Christian is a significant character only because he died... he's a manifestation of the Island's Monster. Before dying he was simply a troubled surgeon with drinking issues, that's all. He wasn't on the Island at any point... he was busy fathering Jack and Claire.

We also saw teenage Locke. Alpert was trying to recruit him to go to a "camp".

[abcd1234]

we also saw a young sawyer when his father killed his mother?

[notsolost42]

We also saw teenage Locke. Alpert was trying to recruit him to go to a "camp".

Actually, that was Locke's high school biology teacher trying to recruit him for Mittelos' Science Camp. Richard tested him when he was about 8 or someething. And, don't forget we saw Locke being born. And we saw Ben being born.

[VeraLynn]

Actually, that was Locke's high school biology teacher trying to recruit him for Mittelos' Science Camp. Richard tested him when he was about 8 or someething. And, don't forget we saw Locke being born. And we saw Ben being born.

"I know you're probably upset right now, but I do have some exciting news for you. I got a call from Portland this morning. There's a company up there doing some very exciting things in chemistry and new technologies. They're called Mittelos Laboratories. I spoke with a Dr. Alpert. He's very interested in finding young bright minds to enter into these new fields of science." He hands Locke a brochure. "They want you to go to their summer camp."

I considered that Alpert trying to recruit him, albeit indirectly.

[notsolost42]

"I know you're probably upset right now, but I do have some exciting news for you. I got a call from Portland this morning. There's a company up there doing some very exciting things in chemistry and new technologies. They're called Mittelos Laboratories. I spoke with a Dr. Alpert. He's very interested in finding young bright minds to enter into these new fields of science." He hands Locke a brochure. "They want you to go to their summer camp."

I considered that Alpert trying to recruit him, albeit indirectly.

Six of one, half a dozen of another then! We are buoth right! I took the literal road.

[VeraLynn]

Six of one, half a dozen of another then! We are buoth right! I took the literal road.

Have we ever heard of "Mittelos Laboratories" before or since that episode? I had totally forgotten about that...

[notsolost42]

Have we ever heard of "Mittelos Laboratories" before or since that episode? I had totally forgotten about that...

Yes. That's who recruited Juliet also I believe and it was Richard and Ethan who went to see her. It's been around before also.

[Bluecrew]

I'm with you here. For this Jack is Christian theory to be accurate, well where does Jack's mother fit in? Who would "Jack Christian's" father be? Ray?

I'm not thinking Ray and Margo had relations, so what other possibility is there? I'm sticking with the theory that Jack is the son of Christian and they are not the same person.


You guys are thinking too deep on this topic.

Jack = Jack
Christian = Christian

but when we see Christian on the island it is basically an 27 year older version of Jack. Sons do have a tendency of growing up to look like their fathers.

Jack basically leads himself to find the water and the caves!! This is possible because we did see Miles look at himself from a distance which would have been exactly what Jack was doing in leading himself to the water.

[Panda]

Not sure how you make the leap from this "Jack is Christian" theory to stating that Locke was never on the Island before 2004.

Locke skipped through time.... we know he was on the Island in 1954 when he met Richard and Widmore, he was also on the Island when Ethan shot him which was presumably before the Oceanic 815 crash. These are facts, we've seen them.

There can't be two Lockes on the Island in 2007 because Locke did not get stuck in time like Sawyer, Juliet, Miles and Daniel did. Now we also have Jack, Kate, Sayid and Hurley in 1977. Locke skipped through time and at some point he went down the well and pushed the wheel to get off-island. He was off island in 2007 and then went back as a corpse. There is only one Locke.

It was only a question not a statement.
And thanks for the answers.
I ask many questions. And the answers I get on them makes it easier to understand what certain theories are about and what not.
Thanks for this clarification.

[Panda]

Ben was born off Island in a time that Widmore had already been on the Island for decades. We could posit that Ben travels back in time to the 50's to be Charles Widmore, but Ben is already older in 2004 than Charles was in 1954 when Locke met him.

Ben and Charles are not the same person.
Thanks for answering my questions.

[Chronos]

You guys are thinking too deep on this topic.

Jack = Jack
Christian = Christian

but when we see Christian on the island it is basically an 27 year older version of Jack. Sons do have a tendency of growing up to look like their fathers.

Jack basically leads himself to find the water and the caves!! This is possible because we did see Miles look at himself from a distance which would have been exactly what Jack was doing in leading himself to the water.

I see what you're saying, it's an interesting idea. There is a caveat, though.

Christian appeared to Locke underground, shortly before Locke turned the wheel. We know that took place during a time that the well did not exist... in fact, it was when the statue was in existence. Does that mean that Dharma janitor Jack, a.k.a. Christian, also skipped through time with Locke and Sawyer & Co?

[chester]

people are saying that if our hero's die in '77 then they will still be born 'mainland' in which ever year they were born in. ok, if that is the case, what if one of our hero's, say, i don't know, jack, doesn't die in the past. then he will continue to age as time goes forward. so...it is possible that christian could be '77 jack....could this be possible???

This idea certainly fits in with the 'Rant' hypothesis. Jack = Rant; Christian = Chet; Grandpa = Green Taylor Simms. Rant, Chet and Green are all the same person - on his way to becoming either an Historian or a Reverse Pioneer. Just needs to terminate his origins to become immortal. In the book, Green is Rant who accidentally 'flashbacked' to a time when his great-grandmother was just of age. And accidentally 'bumped into her'. Then stayed around for when his grandmother was of age, and mother too. Rant is the child of his mother, of course, and himself (Not sure but his mother/grandmother might even be just female versions of himself???). Chet is Rant who travelled back on purpose, before he travelled back accidentally (the first time), to try to prevent Green from messing with his mother. But he emerges from the 'flashback' too late. And decides to live with his "mother" and bring up himself. Rant is the kid how is brought up by himself. Not too sure what he does at the end. It is very confusing. I would recommend anyone trying to get a better handle on this idea, to read the book.

I haven't seen anything in the show that definitely rules this possibility out. And judging by the reaction of others to your theory, it would certainly be a surprising plot twist. Some people's heads might explode.

I like the idea, though it still confuses me. It is only dealt with fairly briefly in the book, which leaves alot of questions unanswered. Aparently there are two sequels, all but written, but are not going to be published until around mid 2010.

[smthng2dowthlost]

So in season 2 when christian was sleeping with jack's ex wife it was old jack stealing young jacks wife? There are numerous other occasion where christian is a bad father to jack wouldn't you be nicer to yourself? And if the miles touching miles bunny touching bunny and something bad happens is true then I don't think christian could be jack because he raised him as a kid I'm sure they would have come in contact at some point.

[Bluecrew]

So in season 2 when christian was sleeping with jack's ex wife it was old jack stealing young jacks wife? There are numerous other occasion where christian is a bad father to jack wouldn't you be nicer to yourself? And if the miles touching miles bunny touching bunny and something bad happens is true then I don't think christian could be jack because he raised him as a kid I'm sure they would have come in contact at some point.

I am not trying to say that Jack = Christian. Those things that happened off the island happened.

What I am trying to say is that when Jack sees his dad on the island and follows him through the jungle to find water and the cave, he could be folowing a older version of himself. We know that you can see your younger self because Miles was watching his dad read him a story.

Why is it so hard to believe that it is possible that a 27 year older Jack would look like his father??

[New Age Messiah]

Why is it so hard to believe that it is possible that a 27 year older Jack would look like his father??Jack, Miles, and Ben are all contemporaneously on the island with their "dead" father. It's a theme.

[abcd1234]

Jack basically leads himself to find the water and the caves!!

This is one of the scenes that really really confuses me. I was pretty sure that jacob or smoke monster were appearing as christian in this scene, and as it turned out jack almost fell to his death, but then did find water and caves... so was something trying to help or hurt jack? (as we know jack is the central character in the show, so its not a stretch to think jacob would want to help him)

But then I saw the mobisode that takes place before the first scene in the first episode, where christian tells vincent to go wake up "my son". so is it really christian? when people are manifested do their personalities and identites sort of blend with the island, as in half-and-half existences?

BTW in my opinion, I dont think the island would bother to pay lip service to a dog, so I think it is in some way really chrisitan, and I also think this debunks the idea that jacob is vincent (as if debunking is necessary). annnnd he didnt say "go wake me up. thats me!" so they probably arent the same guy. I know the one poster was saying they arent the same guy, but the island apparition could have been jack - I get that - but that would mean immediatley after this scene older jack would have to knock christian unconscience and steal his clothes in order to be wearing that suit and leading himself to the caves/water.


Jack, Miles, and Ben are all contemporaneously on the island with their "dead" father. It's a theme.

Love this guy

[notsolost42]

I still say when the plane crashed the island time was different, earler, and that's why Christian was alive and John could walk. It just doesn't account for Claire being pregnant unless that is something that just wouldn't or couldn't change.

[Jeremy]

Not sure about that. If Christian is older Jack, what does that make Ray?

Since we know almost nothing about Charles' background, though, other than that he was with the Others at the age of 17 in 1954, I'm still going by the theory that he is Charlie Hume and he's his own grandpa.