Another wierd difference between scenes

[islander]

The dialogue and scene of Jack, Hurley and Kate was slightly different after they were dumped in that pond/lake in the beginning of episode "316" and the end of "316". I didn't understand why TPTB wouldn't just replay the same exact scene so, always enjoying a good conspiracy, I thought that was evidence that similar events were happening in different dimensions. Others thought it was no big deal - just a production decision to slightly alter the scene by TPTB.

Well, I definitely recall in episode "316" that the first turbulance on the airplane occurred as Jack finished reading Locke's suicide note he then sort of looked up, but in this "Namaste" episode when the turbulance occurs, Jack looks like he had his eyes closed when the first turbulance hit.

The scenes look slightly different to me. Maybe someone who can go frame by frame can review the two scenes. In "316" it's the last couple minutes and in "Namaste" it's the first couple minutes.

[Harpie]

I don't recall the differences off the top of my head about the different dialogue, but the turbulance scenes were definitely different. I don't even need to look to know you're right on about that. I HIGHLY doubt that the TPTB would make such huge and obvious errors when they know how they are scrutinized at every turn. It really has to mean something at this point in the show when these obvious discrepencies occour.

[NoData]

I have heard something about this before and although I missed it myself, I will believe that there are small differences. In Namaste they made a special point to show us a small difference in the 1977 group photo also, so they are definitely trying to tell us something. I guess the only good theory I have heard so far to explain this is the multiple-dimensions-theory.

For those who may have missed the discrepancy, when Christian shows Sun the photo, Hurley is looking directly at the camera. Then the scene cuts to 1977 when the photo was taken, and just before the click of the shutter is heard, Hurley looks to the side and says something to Kate. The photo should have shown Hurley with his head turned toward Kate.

[islander]

It's hard to argue what happened, happened, if slightly different things are happening.

(I'll dive under my desk now) ;-)

[NoData]

I'm not sure I buy "what happened, happened". Hawking went to great lengths to convince Desmond to make a certain choice, and Faraday got pretty agitated when Sawyer kept banging on the Swan's front door, trying to get Desmond's attention.

Edit: Of course both of these examples involve Desmond, who is an exception, so maybe not the best examples. :D

[notsolost42]

I'm not sure I buy "what happened, happened". Hawking went to great lengths to convince Desmond to make a certain choice, and Faraday got pretty agitated when Sawyer kept banging on the Swan's front door, trying to get Desmond's attention.

Edit: Of course both of these examples involve Desmond, who is an exception, so maybe not the best examples. :D

But what you just said is exactly Dan's point. Sawyer could have banged on that hatch door from now till doomsday and Des would never have opened it. He did not meet him yet. Wouldn't happen. Couldn't happen. As for Mrs. Hawking, both her and Brother Campbell were responsible in steering Desmond in the right direction towards his path. He could have proposed to Pen but I bet something would have prevented them from getting married. Desmond was actually spared some heartache and grief by them doing that, in my opinion.

[NoData]

But what you just said is exactly Dan's point. Sawyer could have banged on that hatch door from now till doomsday and Des would never have opened it. He did not meet him yet. Wouldn't happen. Couldn't happen. As for Mrs. Hawking, both her and Brother Campbell were responsible in steering Desmond in the right direction towards his path. He could have proposed to Pen but I bet something would have prevented them from getting married. Desmond was actually spared some heartache and grief by them doing that, in my opinion.Desmond hadn't met Daniel yet either. That changed, and Desmond gained a new memory because of it. I said my examples were bad because Desmond is the only one who has been shown to change things.

[notsolost42]

Desmond hadn't met Daniel yet either. That changed, and Desmond gained a new memory because of it. I said my examples were bad because Desmond is the only one who has been shown to change things.

Well, actually Desmond had met Daniel before. They met at Oxford in 1996, which was before Dan pounded on the hatch. So, again, nothing changed.

[NoData]

It seems awfully convenient to on the one hand say "what happened, happened" and on the other hand attribute whatever changes TPTB put in to different dimensions.

[woogie]

It seems awfully convenient to on the one hand say "what happened, happened" and on the other hand attribute whatever changes TPTB put in to different dimensions.

What are you referring to ??

[notsolost42]

It seems awfully convenient to on the one hand say "what happened, happened" and on the other hand attribute whatever changes TPTB put in to different dimensions.

Well, so far the only changes that I personally have referred to that make me believe there is another dimension were actual slight changes in the action and dialogue of the script. For instance, in 316 both beginning and ending scene with Kate. This was no error on behalf of the producers. It is impossible. So, I have only spoken of scenes that are the same but different. See, in a parallel type dimension, the paths may vary slightly but the end result is always the same. That was the point.

[TuesdaySmith]

I don't see any difference in the first and last scene.. other than seeing more in the last scene.. nothing different.

[notsolost42]

I don't see any difference in the first and last scene.. other than seeing more in the last scene.. nothing different.

When Kate woke up in the beginning scene she just mumbled and came to. In the last scene she spoke actual lines. A definite difference. Check it out.

[NoData]

...in a parallel type dimension, the paths may vary slightly but the end result is always the same.Putting aside for a moment whether or not you are interpreting this correctly, how will you feel about this story if that is how it ends? If TPTB decide to tell us that fate rules? Out in the the real world, do you believe in fate or do you believe in choice? I would not want to create a story that says that our choices don't matter. I find that to be a very debilitating statement. I can't imagine myself, if I were a producer, working on a project for 6 seasons just to have it end on that note. I choose to be empowered and decide my path. Do you believe TPTB will let fate win?

[TuesdaySmith]

I watched them twice right before posting.

The last scene is cut a little so they don't replay the whole thing we just watched, and then it's extended a little to show us more.

There's no difference in content.

[notsolost42]

I watched them twice right before posting.

The last scene is cut a little so they don't replay the whole thing we just watched, and then it's extended a little to show us more.

There's no difference in content.

Sorry, I see a complete difference and I am not the only one. Who knows?

Okay, so now I just went back and rewatched the opening and closing scenes. First scene, Jack wakes, runs, jumps in, saves Hurley and see Kate. So far, so good, right? Kate is revived, she opens her eyes and says "Are we..." and Jack acknowledges "We're back." Then Kate says "What happened."

Now, in the last scene, same Jack, Hurley thing. We get to Kate. Kate opens her eyes and says "What happened?" Now, I can see where this can be interpreted as a continuation of the first scene. But, the thing is that they show Kate just opening her eyes and saying that. That is not what she said when she opened her eyes in the first scene. That's my point. Now, if this is some fancy, slick trick cutting effort, I will be extremely disappointed by TPTB because it is a cheap effort in my books of trickery. So, I would rather believe that it appears to be two different things. I am watching from the point of Kate opening her eyes and her first words.

[chester]

It's hard to argue what happened, happened, if slightly different things are happening.

(I'll dive under my desk now) ;-)

Is there room for one more ? :D

[NoData]

Desmond hadn't met Daniel yet either. That changed, and Desmond gained a new memory because of it. I said my examples were bad because Desmond is the only one who has been shown to change things.Well, actually Desmond had met Daniel before. They met at Oxford in 1996, which was before Dan pounded on the hatch. So, again, nothing changed.Okayy I'm going to try this one more time. You are right, Desmond and Daniel had met before, although I have to wonder if Desmond would have had any recollection of it, seeing as how he had time traveled from the future when it happened. But be that as it may, the scene with Daniel getting Desmond's attention at the hatch was clearly intended to show that Daniel gave Desmond a new memory. TPTB even had Daniel explain it to us by saying that the rules don't apply to Desmond. That new memory is a change, even if a slight one. We have not yet seen the full effects of that change. Desmond will be the one that gets around the whole "what happened, happened" thing.

[krakup]

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr3/baxterkrak/photoframes.jpg

[chester]

There is a logical interpretation of that saying which doesn't mean that things can't be changed. It just means that if they were changed, then those changes are now in the past from the point of view of the present - they've happened. No matter what happens, it's always now.

Daniel's Law, if taken literally, makes no argument against the notion that things can be changed if you have the ability to travel back in time. If there is more than one person doing it, however, it would be very difficult to do or get away with, because the effects of your changes might not be suitable the others who had things set up to be favourable for them, and who would have to go back and change those things back....until it reaches some kind of equilibrium??? What we are seeing in the episodes could be different repetitions, even within the one episode, it could be happening many times and we, not knowing the characters thoughts, remain unaware of it. Mostly. Or they could just be making errors in the shows production. And everything can be explained using a linear model.

[NoData]

There is a logical interpretation of that saying which doesn't mean that things can't be changed. It just means that if they were changed, then those changes are now in the past from the point of view of the present - they've happened. No matter what happens, it's always now.I see what you are saying here but I don't think that is what Daniel means. The context within which he uses that phrase on the show implies that he means the past cannot be changed - at least in a major way. There is always 'course correction' to ensure that the major events stay the same even if minor changes are made.

What we are seeing in the episodes could be different repetitions, even within the one episode, it could be happening many times and we, not knowing the characters thoughts, remain unaware of it. Mostly. Or they could just be making errors in the shows production. And everything can be explained using a linear model.Yes it could be different repetitions. Kind of like running an experiment again and again, the end result should be the same if your controls are good, but little details could be different that will not have a bearing on the outcome. Desmond would be a kind of variable that has the potential of giving unexpected results.

[ortrules]

Now, in the last scene, same Jack, Hurley thing. We get to Kate. Kate opens her eyes and says "What happened?" Now, I can see where this can be interpreted as a continuation of the first scene. But, the thing is that they show Kate just opening her eyes and saying that. That is not what she said when she opened her eyes in the first scene. That's my point. Now, if this is some fancy, slick trick cutting effort, I will be extremely disappointed by TPTB because it is a cheap effort in my books of trickery. So, I would rather believe that it appears to be two different things. I am watching from the point of Kate opening her eyes and her first words.

It's not trickery - they do this with hundreds of shows out there. Even previously on this show, we saw this happen. Earlier this season when everyone met with Mrs. Hawking, the show ended with her giving this menacing look. Then the next episode started with the same scene, but she didn't give that look and dialogue was slightly different. It's as simple as them reshooting that event because they no longer needed her menacing look that ended the previous episode, so they shot it again without her doing that. As a result, some dialogue slightly changed, but there's really nothing more to it than that.

[kwatt99]

Interesting. When I watched that episode, I was a little peeved that they wasted time re-showing the opening scene at the end of the show. I had the same feeling last night when they started to replay the flight 316. Maybe this has something to do with it.