The wheel gets turn again in '77 [Archive]

yokogleeton

03-27-2009, 04:48 PM

I was just thinking about the polar bear remains that Charolette found. The bear had a DI tag on it and if that was in Tunisia then we will probably see that the wheel gets turned in '77 by a polar bear. I'm thinking Faraday is underground digging for the wheel like we saw him in a previous epi.

Aside from the remains of the bear we know that charles whidmore turns the wheel too, and that shouldn't happen until Ben grows up to be an other.

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 04:56 PM

Aside from the remains of the bear we know that charles whidmore turns the wheel too, and that shouldn't happen until Ben grows up to be an other.
Wrong. The wheel cannot have been turned any time between the construction of the Orchid station and 2004. In order to get to the wheel in 2004, Ben had to blow up the Orchid station, so the fact that the station was intact in 2004 means that it hadn't been turned since before the station was built. Therefore, Widmore HAD to have been lying when he told Locke that Ben tricked him into turning the wheel because the station was being built when Ben was a kid, and there is no way that Widmore was tricked by a tweener Ben into turning the wheel.

Moreover, we still have no idea when Widmore actually left the island. All we know is that he claimed to have been with the Others for around three decades, and that he was with them in 1954. We don't know when the three decades clock started or ended. I posted a detailed theory about this a few weeks ago.

ortrules

03-27-2009, 05:03 PM

Wrong. The wheel cannot have been turned any time between the construction of the Orchid station and 2004. In order to get to the wheel in 2004, Ben had to blow up the Orchid station, so the fact that the station was intact in 2004 means that it hadn't been turned since before the station was built. Therefore, Widmore HAD to have been lying when he told Locke that Ben tricked him into turning the wheel because the station was being built when Ben was a kid, and there is no way that Widmore was tricked by a tweener Ben into turning the wheel.

When was the date of construction on the Orchid? We can't really say for sure, other than we saw Dan there, meaning it was anytime after 1974. So if the Orchid is not built until 1980, that gives them 6 years to turn the wheel.

Also, we could easily say that after the Orchid is constructed, one of the others break in, destroys part of the station, and turns the wheel. Then when Dharma gets back to the Orchid, they rebuild the wall that was destroyed.

If Widmore turns the wheel in the mid 80s, that still gives Dharma time to rebuild the Orchid area that was destroyed before they get purged in 1992.

MsSpaceman

03-27-2009, 05:05 PM

Aside from the remains of the bear we know that charles whidmore turns the wheel too, and that shouldn't happen until Ben grows up to be an other.

Are we sure Widmore turns the wheel, or were we just told that? Sorry, too many deets to remember sometimes! AAHHHH.

Missie

03-27-2009, 05:06 PM

We dont know how many different ways the are are to get to the wheel. I think it is safe to say that the DI did not ever turn the wheel. However, the possiblity is still open for our LOSTies.

yokogleeton

03-27-2009, 05:14 PM

Wrong. The wheel cannot have been turned any time between the construction of the Orchid station and 2004. In order to get to the wheel in 2004, Ben had to blow up the Orchid station, so the fact that the station was intact in 2004 means that it hadn't been turned since before the station was built. Therefore, Widmore HAD to have been lying when he told Locke that Ben tricked him into turning the wheel because the station was being built when Ben was a kid, and there is no way that Widmore was tricked by a tweener Ben into turning the wheel.

Moreover, we still have no idea when Widmore actually left the island. All we know is that he claimed to have been with the Others for around three decades, and that he was with them in 1954. We don't know when the three decades clock started or ended. I posted a detailed theory about this a few weeks ago.

Ok so you're saying that Charles may have lied about his exit from the island?

I'll concede that this may be, but i do so with the following "buts:"

But how does charles know the exit point in Tunisa? It is fact that he had the area monitored because he knew it to be the exit point.
But do we know when the Orchid was constructed?
But who's to say the back of the vault wasn't blasted out by charles and repaired by Dharma?
But how do we know there isn't alternate access to the wheel from the other side?

So fine, we definitly know the polar bear came out the exit, so someone (or thing) turned the wheel. :)

ortrules

03-27-2009, 05:15 PM

We dont know how many different ways the are are to get to the wheel. I think it is safe to say that the DI did not ever turn the wheel. However, the possiblity is still open for our LOSTies.

Precisely. I think that the Others dug the well and discovered the wheel, so they probably know more about it than Dharma does. I also think it's possible that Ben blew up the Orchid wall to fool Locke. There's probably a secret and easier way to get to the wheel, but Ben didn't want to let Locke in on that secret.

MsSpaceman

03-27-2009, 05:25 PM

When was the date of construction on the Orchid? We can't really say for sure, other than we saw Dan there, meaning it was anytime after 1974. So if the Orchid is not built until 1980, that gives them 6 years to turn the wheel.

Also, we could easily say that after the Orchid is constructed, one of the others break in, destroys part of the station, and turns the wheel. Then when Dharma gets back to the Orchid, they rebuild the wall that was destroyed.

If Widmore turns the wheel in the mid 80s, that still gives Dharma time to rebuild the Orchid area that was destroyed before they get purged in 1992.

Yeah, I agree...I wouldn't discount turning the wheel just because Ben had to blow the station to get at it. Also, aren't there some underground tunnels, one of which was in Bens closet?

...in 2007 Widmore himself told Locke that he had been the Others' leader for three decades and Miles said in 2005 that Widmore had been searching for the island for twenty years. That would mean that Widmore turned the wheel in 1985. So, maybe he wasn't the "leader" yet when we saw him in 1954, making it possible that we will see him in a 1977 episode soon.

Missie

03-27-2009, 05:25 PM

Precisely. I think that the Others dug the well and discovered the wheel, so they probably know more about it than Dharma does. I also think it's possible that Ben blew up the Orchid wall to fool Locke. There's probably a secret and easier way to get to the wheel, but Ben didn't want to let Locke in on that secret.

Maybe Ben doesnt know at all. It makes since he would know about the Orchid entrance because he was once a member of the DI. We know there are tunnels that run throughout the island. Maybe the Frozen Donkey Wheel Room is just one corridor in the entire tunnel system. Id like to see what else is down there.

Missie

03-27-2009, 05:28 PM

Yeah, I agree...I wouldn't discount turning the wheel just because Ben had to blow the station to get at it. Also, aren't there some underground tunnels, one of which was in Bens closet?

...in 2007 Widmore himself told Locke that he had been the Others' leader for three decades and Miles said in 2005 that Widmore had been searching for the island for twenty years. That would mean that Widmore turned the wheel in 1985. So, maybe he wasn't the "leader" yet when we saw him in 1954, making it possible that we will see him in a 1977 episode soon.

When you turn the wheel you time jump when entering Tunsia though. So 20 years to Widmore could mean a few more in actual time. So maybe he turns the wheel in 1977, but then its 1985 in Tunsia and he searches for 20 years aking it 2005 when he finds the island again.

ortrules

03-27-2009, 05:34 PM

Yeah, I agree...I wouldn't discount turning the wheel just because Ben had to blow the station to get at it. Also, aren't there some underground tunnels, one of which was in Bens closet?

...in 2007 Widmore himself told Locke that he had been the Others' leader for three decades and Miles said in 2005 that Widmore had been searching for the island for twenty years. That would mean that Widmore turned the wheel in 1985. So, maybe he wasn't the "leader" yet when we saw him in 1954, making it possible that we will see him in a 1977 episode soon.

Absolutely. I also believe that it is entirely possible that a 15 year old Ben is able to "manipulate" Widmore into turning the wheel. Perhaps Ben will claim that he has an astute knowledge of what happens when you turn the wheel - especially given that he's been a part of Dharma for 4 years.

We should also consider that during the conversation Widmore and Ben had in Widmore's room, Widmore called Ben "boy". Perhaps that's a sign of young Ben talking Widmore into turning the wheel.

ortrules

03-27-2009, 05:40 PM

I just looked up the line I referred to in my previous post. During the episode "The Shape of Things To Come" when Ben is talking to Widmore.

WIDMORE: I know who you are, boy. What you are. I know that everything you have you took from me.

Widmore refers to Ben as "boy" - perhaps reflecting that Ben was a boy when Widmore was leader of the Others. It also sounds like the two of them never really met when Widmore was on the island, but more like Ben was indirectly responsible for getting Widmore off the island. Perhaps Ben gives some information to Richard and it's really Richard who tells Widmore to move the wheel. But since the original info came from Ben, Widmore blames him

MsSpaceman

03-27-2009, 05:42 PM

When you turn the wheel you time jump when entering Tunsia though. So 20 years to Widmore could mean a few more in actual time. So maybe he turns the wheel in 1977, but then its 1985 in Tunsia and he searches for 20 years aking it 2005 when he finds the island again.

Yeah, I had thought about that too, but part of me really hopes that some of the Inormation we are given, especially dates, they are clues for us to figure out some stuff. Wishful thinking? Maybe. I mean, we do know of time discrepancies on/off the island from the heli scenes and the freighter stuff so you do have a point.

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 06:00 PM

When was the date of construction on the Orchid? We can't really say for sure, other than we saw Dan there, meaning it was anytime after 1974. So if the Orchid is not built until 1980, that gives them 6 years to turn the wheel.

Also, we could easily say that after the Orchid is constructed, one of the others break in, destroys part of the station, and turns the wheel. Then when Dharma gets back to the Orchid, they rebuild the wall that was destroyed.

If Widmore turns the wheel in the mid 80s, that still gives Dharma time to rebuild the Orchid area that was destroyed before they get purged in 1992.
There is no REASON to turn the wheel while Dharma is there. It is extremely dangerous, and only a last resort. In 2004, Ben turns the wheel because Widmore knows where the island is, and if he moves it, Widmore can't find it again. Widmore only found it in 2004 because of the hatch being blown up, so by moving it, the island is safe from Widmore. Dharma can find the island again because they have another station off-island (where we see Hawking in 2007), so moving the island in the 1970's does the Others no good, and is extremely risky. Why would they bother, even if they find a window of opportunity while the Orchid is being constructed?

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 06:01 PM

We dont know how many different ways the are are to get to the wheel. I think it is safe to say that the DI did not ever turn the wheel. However, the possiblity is still open for our LOSTies.
If there had been another way to get to the wheel, Ben wouldn't have done something as dangerous as he did to get to it in 2004. Ben is many things, but stupid isn't one of them.

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 06:04 PM

Ok so you're saying that Charles may have lied about his exit from the island?

I'll concede that this may be, but i do so with the following "buts:"

But how does charles know the exit point in Tunisa? It is fact that he had the area monitored because he knew it to be the exit point.
But do we know when the Orchid was constructed?
But who's to say the back of the vault wasn't blasted out by charles and repaired by Dharma?
But how do we know there isn't alternate access to the wheel from the other side?

So fine, we definitly know the polar bear came out the exit, so someone (or thing) turned the wheel. :)
I would bet that Widmore probably DID turn the wheel, and that is how he knew where the exit was. However, just because he told the truth about that doesn't mean he wasn't lying about everything else. (You can read my post for yourself-- it is a few weeks back).

If somebody had blown up the Orchid to get to the wheel, and turned it during Dharma's stay, don't you think they would have made it a bit more difficult to do again?!

ortrules

03-27-2009, 06:05 PM

There is no REASON to turn the wheel while Dharma is there. It is extremely dangerous, and only a last resort. In 2004, Ben turns the wheel because Widmore knows where the island is, and if he moves it, Widmore can't find it again. Widmore only found it in 2004 because of the hatch being blown up, so by moving it, the island is safe from Widmore. Dharma can find the island again because they have another station off-island (where we see Hawking in 2007), so moving the island in the 1970's does the Others no good, and is extremely risky. Why would they bother, even if they find a window of opportunity while the Orchid is being constructed?

Because our Losties will help convince the Others that turning the wheel will return them to the future.

Additionally, I could turn this around and ask you the same question. What purpose does Widmore turning the wheel prior to Dharma showing up have? They aren't in danger from anyone, and it's very risky, so why move it?

Missie

03-27-2009, 06:05 PM

There is no REASON to turn the wheel while Dharma is there. It is extremely dangerous, and only a last resort. In 2004, Ben turns the wheel because Widmore knows where the island is, and if he moves it, Widmore can't find it again. Widmore only found it in 2004 because of the hatch being blown up, so by moving it, the island is safe from Widmore. Dharma can find the island again because they have another station off-island (where we see Hawking in 2007), so moving the island in the 1970's does the Others no good, and is extremely risky. Why would they bother, even if they find a window of opportunity while the Orchid is being constructed?

I think the island is always moving regardless of the wheel turnings. Hawkings kinda gave us this idea when she said "Why do you think you were never found?"

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 06:06 PM

Precisely. I think that the Others dug the well and discovered the wheel, so they probably know more about it than Dharma does. I also think it's possible that Ben blew up the Orchid wall to fool Locke. There's probably a secret and easier way to get to the wheel, but Ben didn't want to let Locke in on that secret.
No, DI didn't dig the well- they FILLED the well. When the Losties showed up in 1974, the well had been FILLED IN, but some of the structure was still there in dilapidated form. DI probably found the wheel by exploring the well, then filled it in and built the Orchid so that they could take advantage of it.

ortrules

03-27-2009, 06:07 PM

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 06:08 PM

Yeah, I agree...I wouldn't discount turning the wheel just because Ben had to blow the station to get at it. Also, aren't there some underground tunnels, one of which was in Bens closet?

...in 2007 Widmore himself told Locke that he had been the Others' leader for three decades and Miles said in 2005 that Widmore had been searching for the island for twenty years. That would mean that Widmore turned the wheel in 1985. So, maybe he wasn't the "leader" yet when we saw him in 1954, making it possible that we will see him in a 1977 episode soon.
If Ben could have gotten to it an easier way, then why didn't he?!

Second, WIDMORE DID NOT SAY HE WAS THE OTHERS' LEADER FOR THIRTY YEARS! He said that he was their leader, and that they, collectively, protected the island for 30 years. That doesn't mean he was their leader for 30 years. We have no idea when that 30 years started, or when it ended, but I come back to the question: why would ANYONE turn the wheel during DI given how dangerous it is, and how little it would benefit ANYONE?

Missie

03-27-2009, 06:10 PM

No, DI didn't dig the well- they FILLED the well. When the Losties showed up in 1974, the well had been FILLED IN, but some of the structure was still there in dilapidated form. DI probably found the wheel by exploring the well, then filled it in and built the Orchid so that they could take advantage of it.

I dont hink that DI found the wheel from the well. In the premier epi we saw the constuction guy show Cheng a picture of wheel he got from radar. They were trying to get to it and then Cheng stoped them. I think they had some way to detect the exotic matter in that area and decided to build the Orchid and then discovered the wheel.

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 06:10 PM

Maybe Ben doesnt know at all. It makes since he would know about the Orchid entrance because he was once a member of the DI. We know there are tunnels that run throughout the island. Maybe the Frozen Donkey Wheel Room is just one corridor in the entire tunnel system. Id like to see what else is down there.
I come back to the basic point-- if there is a safer way to get to the wheel, why take the dangerous route? Once Ben shows Locke where the wheel is, he can get there again anyway, so there is NO reason to try to hide another secret entrance.

wiley

03-27-2009, 06:10 PM

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 06:12 PM

Absolutely. I also believe that it is entirely possible that a 15 year old Ben is able to "manipulate" Widmore into turning the wheel. Perhaps Ben will claim that he has an astute knowledge of what happens when you turn the wheel - especially given that he's been a part of Dharma for 4 years.

We should also consider that during the conversation Widmore and Ben had in Widmore's room, Widmore called Ben "boy". Perhaps that's a sign of young Ben talking Widmore into turning the wheel.
The Orchid is a SECRET-- even within Dharma! There is NO WAY that a 15 year old Ben knows about the wheel, knows what it does, and somehow manages to snooker Widmore into turning it.

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 06:13 PM

ortrules

03-27-2009, 06:13 PM

I come back to the basic point-- if there is a safer way to get to the wheel, why take the dangerous route? Once Ben shows Locke where the wheel is, he can get there again anyway, so there is NO reason to try to hide another secret entrance.

Really? So if you could get to the Orchid using Ben's secret closet door, Ben should have just showed Locke how to get to the Orchid that way?

I mean really, why would Ben want to give all his secrets away? Sure, Locke knows how to get there, but he doesn't know any other secrets.

Missie

03-27-2009, 06:13 PM

If Ben could have gotten to it an easier way, then why didn't he?!

Second, WIDMORE DID NOT SAY HE WAS THE OTHERS' LEADER FOR THIRTY YEARS! He said that he was their leader, and that they, collectively, protected the island for 30 years. That doesn't mean he was their leader for 30 years. We have no idea when that 30 years started, or when it ended, but I come back to the question: why would ANYONE turn the wheel during DI given how dangerous it is, and how little it would benefit ANYONE?

Have you read any of my posts yet?

Ben may not have known any other way to get to the wheel. Widmore may have been tricked into turning the wheel. The Losties may turn the wheel to return to their own times. There are many scenerios that could lead to someone turning the wheel, not just when bad guys are out to get you.

ortrules

03-27-2009, 06:14 PM

The Orchid is a SECRET-- even within Dharma! There is NO WAY that a 15 year old Ben knows about the wheel, knows what it does, and somehow manages to snooker Widmore into turning it.

Just like there's no way an 11 year old Ben knows how to turn off the sonar fence? Or run a burning van into a building?

Ben is craftier than you think.

Missie

03-27-2009, 06:16 PM

I come back to the basic point-- if there is a safer way to get to the wheel, why take the dangerous route? Once Ben shows Locke where the wheel is, he can get there again anyway, so there is NO reason to try to hide another secret entrance.

The Orchid is a SECRET-- even within Dharma! There is NO WAY that a 15 year old Ben knows about the wheel, knows what it does, and somehow manages to snooker Widmore into turning it.

The "boy" comment is just a condescending remark to a younger person. However, I agree that they never met on the island. Read my earlier thread for my proposed Widmore timeline.

This is called multi-quoting. :) I think you will find it usefull.

Why do you feel like turning the wheel is so dangerous?

MsSpaceman

03-27-2009, 06:16 PM

No, DI didn't dig the well- they FILLED the well. When the Losties showed up in 1974, the well had been FILLED IN, but some of the structure was still there in dilapidated form. DI probably found the wheel by exploring the well, then filled it in and built the Orchid so that they could take advantage of it.

Just a funny thought, remember after Locke turned the wheel and they flashed, Sawyer was still holding the rope so it was just a rope sticking out of the ground? What if that was the way the wheel, or even just that special area the wheel was built, was found! Someone comes across this rope and out of curiosity discovers it's purpose.

If anybody watched the previews for next week, Kate says "we caused all of this".....maybe they caused IT ALL. Loop de loop

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 06:16 PM

Because our Losties will help convince the Others that turning the wheel will return them to the future.

Additionally, I could turn this around and ask you the same question. What purpose does Widmore turning the wheel prior to Dharma showing up have? They aren't in danger from anyone, and it's very risky, so why move it?
I don't see why the Others would care about the Losties in the 70s any more than they care about the Losties in the 90s.

On the other point, good question, and I don't have a specific answer, but we know that the Others constantly worry about people finding the island. However, moving the island only helps if you do it BEFORE they actually find it.

wiley

03-27-2009, 06:16 PM

Have you read any of my posts yet?

Ben may not have known any other way to get to the wheel. Widmore may have been tricked into turning the wheel. The Losties may turn the wheel to return to their own times. There are many scenerios that could lead to someone turning the wheel, not just when bad guys are out to get you.

I agree with this, one of the Losties may figure it's the only way to get back. and Wham turns the wheel.

wiley

03-27-2009, 06:18 PM

Just a funny thought, remember after Locke turned the wheel and they flashed, Sawyer was still holding the rope so it was just a rope sticking out of the ground? What if that was the way the wheel, or even just that special area the wheel was built, was found! Someone comes across this rope and out of curiosity discovers it's purpose.

If anybody watched the previews for next week, Kate says "we caused all of this".....maybe they caused IT ALL. Loop de loop

You know that wheel looks a lot like the steering wheel of an old ship. what if the Black Rock had something to do with the wheel getting there in the first place?

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 06:19 PM

Really? So if you could get to the Orchid using Ben's secret closet door, Ben should have just showed Locke how to get to the Orchid that way?

I mean really, why would Ben want to give all his secrets away? Sure, Locke knows how to get there, but he doesn't know any other secrets.
Ben ALREADY gave up the secret by showing Locke where the wheel was! Who cares whether or not there is another way?! Why would Ben risk killing himself to prevent Locke from knowing another route to the wheel?!

Missie

03-27-2009, 06:19 PM

I agree with this, one of the Losties may figure it's the only way to get back. and Wham turns the wheel.

Like maybe, lets say um Jin... who desperatly wants to get back to his wife, or maybe even Sun who is looking for her husband.

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 06:19 PM

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 06:21 PM

Just like there's no way an 11 year old Ben knows how to turn off the sonar fence? Or run a burning van into a building?

Ben is craftier than you think.
I have no problem believing that an 11 year old Ben can do those things. However, you will need one heck of a plausible explanation for how Ben knows the deepest, darkest secrets of the island at 15 years old, before he even fully joins the Others. Then, there is the question of how dumb Widmore would have to be to be manipulated by a 15 year old. However smart you think Ben is, how dumb to you think Widmore is?

Missie

03-27-2009, 06:21 PM

Such as...?

Such as the post where I said that Ben may not have known any other way to get to the wheel.

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 06:22 PM

This is called multi-quoting. :) I think you will find it usefull.

Why do you feel like turning the wheel is so dangerous?
Because Ben panicked when he found out that was Jacob's plan, and doing it nearly killed everyone on the island who wasn't in the temple. That sounds pretty dangerous to me.

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 06:23 PM

I agree with this, one of the Losties may figure it's the only way to get back. and Wham turns the wheel.
Even knowing that it nearly killed everyone?!

Missie

03-27-2009, 06:24 PM

I have no problem believing that an 11 year old Ben can do those things. However, you will need one heck of a plausible explanation for how Ben knows the deepest, darkest secrets of the island at 15 years old, before he even fully joins the Others. Then, there is the question of how dumb Widmore would have to be to be manipulated by a 15 year old. However smart you think Ben is, how dumb to you think Widmore is?

Do you seriously think Locke is dumb? Because Ben was able to manuipulate him time after time after time. And Sayid too.

Ben would obviously be looking for the deepest secrets in the DI so he could give info to the Others and turn traitor.

Missie

03-27-2009, 06:25 PM

Because Ben panicked when he found out that was Jacob's plan, and doing it nearly killed everyone on the island who wasn't in the temple. That sounds pretty dangerous to me.

He panicked bacause he didnt want to leave the island. Ben screwed up he did not turn the wheel correctly that is why it nearly killed everyone. Had he turned the wheel correctly all the flashes may not have happened.

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 06:25 PM

Like maybe, lets say um Jin... who desperatly wants to get back to his wife, or maybe even Sun who is looking for her husband.
Jin wouldn't risk everyone else's lives just to get back to Sun. He might take a risk to save Sun, but Sun isn't even in that time period.

wiley

03-27-2009, 06:26 PM

Even knowing that it nearly killed everyone?!

Sure why not? Locke did!

MsSpaceman

03-27-2009, 06:26 PM

If Ben could have gotten to it an easier way, then why didn't he?!

Second, WIDMORE DID NOT SAY HE WAS THE OTHERS' LEADER FOR THIRTY YEARS! He said that he was their leader, and that they, collectively, protected the island for 30 years. That doesn't mean he was their leader for 30 years. We have no idea when that 30 years started, or when it ended, but I come back to the question: why would ANYONE turn the wheel during DI given how dangerous it is, and how little it would benefit ANYONE?

Okay, maybe I'm wrong on him being the LEADER for three decades, BUT I think that Miles saying in 2005 that widmore has been searching for the island for TWENTY years means something. I may not know WHY widmore turned the wheel but the years we have been given tells us he was EXILED in 1985.

And...don't forget that just because DI doesn't know what the wheel does, our Losties are there, including FARADAY, and he knows what it does.. We have seen him in the tunel.

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 06:27 PM

Such as the post where I said that Ben may not have known any other way to get to the wheel.
I was asking for another scenario that would lead to someone turning the wheel. It isn't the deflector array on the enterprise, and it isn't the universal solution to every problem...

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 06:28 PM

Do you seriously think Locke is dumb? Because Ben was able to manuipulate him time after time after time. And Sayid too.

Ben would obviously be looking for the deepest secrets in the DI so he could give info to the Others and turn traitor.
I haven't said anything about Locke at all.

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 06:28 PM

He panicked bacause he didnt want to leave the island. Ben screwed up he did not turn the wheel correctly that is why it nearly killed everyone. Had he turned the wheel correctly all the flashes may not have happened.
That's why it is dangerous!

MsSpaceman

03-27-2009, 06:29 PM

I agree with this, one of the Losties may figure it's the only way to get back. and Wham turns the wheel.

Or has the polar bear turn the wheel :)

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 06:29 PM

Sure why not? Locke did!
No, Locke wasn't risking anything. If he had done nothing, they all would have died. The only way to save them was to put the wheel back on track to undo the damage done by Ben turning the wheel.

wiley

03-27-2009, 06:29 PM

Or has the polar bear turn the wheel :)

Good point!

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 06:32 PM

Okay, maybe I'm wrong on him being the LEADER for three decades, BUT I think that Miles saying in 2005 that widmore has been searching for the island for TWENTY years means something. I may not know WHY widmore turned the wheel but the years we have been given tells us he was EXILED in 1985.

And...don't forget that just because DI doesn't know what the wheel does, our Losties are there, including FARADAY, and he knows what it does.. We have seen him in the tunel.
No, that doesn't mean he left in 1985. You are assuming not only that Miles is correct, but that Widmore started searching the day after he left. We don't know exactly what Widmore did when he first left, or when he formulated a plan to find the island again.

MsSpaceman

03-27-2009, 06:32 PM

You know that wheel looks a lot like the steering wheel of an old ship. what if the Black Rock had something to do with the wheel getting there in the first place?

OMG you're right! High five! It's definitely super old, maybe Adam and Eve put it there...maybe that was the time the rope got stuck in the ground by Sawyer?

wiley

03-27-2009, 06:35 PM

No, Locke wasn't risking anything. If he had done nothing, they all would have died. The only way to save them was to put the wheel back on track to undo the damage done by Ben turning the wheel.

We have not been shown that turning the wheel causes people to die, only that turning the wheel incorrectly causes problems and some people die and maybe more if it does not get corrected.

MsSpaceman

03-27-2009, 06:40 PM

No, that doesn't mean he left in 1985. You are assuming not only that Miles is correct, but that Widmore started searching the day after he left. We don't know exactly what Widmore did when he first left, or when he formulated a plan to find the island again.

Yeah I already thought about that. Look, with all this time travel stuff and not knowing if he litterally started looking for the island the very second he was exilied, it's a giant rabbit hole. This IS a show and like I said before, I have a shred of hope that some of these hints or pieces of the puzzle actually do help us figure some stuff out.

I say, let's talk more about it after we know. I will lay my cards out...Widmore was exiled from the island in 1985 :)

Smokestack360

03-27-2009, 06:55 PM

You know that wheel looks a lot like the steering wheel of an old ship. what if the Black Rock had something to do with the wheel getting there in the first place?

You have a valid point here. I think the big question is what the heck is that wheel? What exactly does it turn? A big pile of exotic matter, 45 degrees to the left and bam there you are in Tunisia.

Any ideas on what is behind that wall the wheel is sticking out of, or what it's connected to?

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 07:02 PM

We have not been shown that turning the wheel causes people to die, only that turning the wheel incorrectly causes problems and some people die and maybe more if it does not get corrected.
That still means turning the wheel is dangerous. You only get hurt skiing down a tough slope if you screw up, but that doesn't mean it isn't dangerous.

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 07:03 PM

Yeah I already thought about that. Look, with all this time travel stuff and not knowing if he litterally started looking for the island the very second he was exilied, it's a giant rabbit hole. This IS a show and like I said before, I have a shred of hope that some of these hints or pieces of the puzzle actually do help us figure some stuff out.

I say, let's talk more about it after we know. I will lay my cards out...Widmore was exiled from the island in 1985 :)
Fair enough. I posted a theory a while back that Widmore left pre-Dharma, and then became one of the behind-the-scenes backers of Dharma. We'll see who is right.

MsSpaceman

03-27-2009, 07:11 PM

Fair enough. I posted a theory a while back that Widmore left pre-Dharma, and then became one of the behind-the-scenes backers of Dharma. We'll see who is right.

Ohhhhh! I like that theory, quite a twist! Yes, if that is so...maybe we are just assuming with whom he is speaking of when he says he was with the others for three decades.

Can you point me to the thread?

ortrules

03-27-2009, 07:12 PM

Ben ALREADY gave up the secret by showing Locke where the wheel was! Who cares whether or not there is another way?! Why would Ben risk killing himself to prevent Locke from knowing another route to the wheel?!

But Ben didn't risk killing himself, he knew exactly what he was doing.

And you really missed my point about there being another way. If the other way is secret, such as you can get there from Ben's secret closet or the Temple, why would Ben want to expose all those secret paths to Locke? Sure, Locke knows where the frozen wheel is, but he only knows how to get there by going through the Orchid. What he doesn't know is that there are secret rooms and entrances to it - see my point? So no, Ben didn't reveal all the secrets to Locke, that's what I'm saying. He did it in such a way that Locke would have as little information as possible.

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 07:17 PM

Ohhhhh! I like that theory, quite a twist! Yes, if that is so...maybe we are just assuming with whom he is speaking of when he says he was with the others for three decades.

Can you point me to the thread?
The thread was called, "A proposed Charles Widmore timeline," and the last post was on 3/10.

XmasDVD

03-27-2009, 07:17 PM

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 07:20 PM

But Ben didn't risk killing himself, he knew exactly what he was doing.

And you really missed my point about there being another way. If the other way is secret, such as you can get there from Ben's secret closet or the Temple, why would Ben want to expose all those secret paths to Locke? Sure, Locke knows where the frozen wheel is, but he only knows how to get there by going through the Orchid. What he doesn't know is that there are secret rooms and entrances to it - see my point? So no, Ben didn't reveal all the secrets to Locke, that's what I'm saying. He did it in such a way that Locke would have as little information as possible.
Causing an explosion big enough to destroy the time machine is ALWAYS dangerous. There is no possible way to create such an explosion without risking your own death. Ben is smart, but he isn't god, and what he did to get to the wheel was risky. There is no such thing as a detonation without risk.

Second, I didn't see another entrance to the chamber with the wheel, and even if there had been, what secret would Ben consider worth risking his own life?

ortrules

03-27-2009, 07:21 PM

ortrules

03-27-2009, 07:28 PM

Second, I didn't see another entrance to the chamber with the wheel, and even if there had been, what secret would Ben consider worth risking his own life?

That's why they call them secret entrances.

And what secret would Ben consider worth risking his own life? I don't know, how to summon smokie. Secrets to the island. Who Jacob is. The so-called "magic box." Take your pick of any secret to the island we don't know about. Look at what happened between young Widmore and his friend. Widmore was so passionate about keeping their secret that he killed his fellow Other and risked his own life by running. Seems to me like they all have something very important that they would rather die for than discuss.

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 07:30 PM

Let's also sort through this.

In 2007, Widmore tells Locke that he spent 30 years protecting the island. We saw Widmore was on the island in 1954. So, at the latest, Widmore was on the island until 1984.

In 2004, Miles says that Widmore has been looking for the island for 20 years. So he's been looking for the island since at least 1984.

I'm sorry, but even if both characters are lying or don't know the full truth, both times lead us to 1984. So it would seem Widmore left the island in the late 70s or early 80s - and look at that, our Losties just happen to be there in the late 70s. I'm inclined to think it's not all a big coincidence.
I disagree. Widmore's statement does not lead us to 1984. It only does so if you assume that he had just arrived on the island when we saw him in 1954, and that strikes me as extremely implausible. If he was the leader of the Others, that suggests that he was contacted as a young boy, as Locke and Ben were. If he passed the type of test that Richard gave to Locke in 56, then he would have been on the island for perhaps 10 years in 1954. For all we know, he was BORN on the island! I categorically reject the claim that Widmore's statement leads to him leaving the island in 1954.

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 07:32 PM

That's why they call them secret entrances.

And what secret would Ben consider worth risking his own life? I don't know, how to summon smokie. Secrets to the island. Who Jacob is. The so-called "magic box." Take your pick of any secret to the island we don't know about. Look at what happened between young Widmore and his friend. Widmore was so passionate about keeping their secret that he killed his fellow Other and risked his own life by running. Seems to me like they all have something very important that they would rather die for than discuss.
Widmore and Ben are different people. I don't see him risking his life for anything. He even let his own adopted daughter die in front of his eyes to save his own butt.

Besides, I remind you that there wasn't another entrance shown to the chamber with the donkey wheel...

wiley

03-27-2009, 07:33 PM

That still means turning the wheel is dangerous. You only get hurt skiing down a tough slope if you screw up, but that doesn't mean it isn't dangerous.

True enough. It's not like there were a set of instructions on the wall.

MsSpaceman

03-27-2009, 07:33 PM

I am noticing that everyone seems to be forgeting that when you mention 'Dharma' you now have to remember that our losties are now part of 'Dharma' and they have knowledge of the future.

It's possible for them to impart their future knowledge, whether on purpose or not, onto the 1977 gang.

Next week, Kate will start talking about the 'coverup' that the O6 put together. This may be a way 1977 Dharma learns of future events - heck, Sayid talked last week, strapped to the tree - whether they believed him at the time or not - they have to be questioning it.

Yes, I agree with you. I mentioned earlier that Faraday is digging in the tunnel, -- assuming he's digging for the wheel. The DI isn't ignorant to what the wheel does exactly because our Losties ARE there and were ALWAYS there and they already know about it. WHH, and "we caused all of this" leads me to believe that no matter what they do, it was what happened to begin with. Plus, in the comi con video Dr. Change is being recorded by Faraday (unless is just sounds like him, which i doubt) trying to warn of the events to come in the future. Faraday, however is still sure that it's useless to do this because of his theory of WHH. It would seem that the DI is informed of the future by our losties.

ortrules

03-27-2009, 07:39 PM

I disagree. Widmore's statement does not lead us to 1984. It only does so if you assume that he had just arrived on the island when we saw him in 1954, and that strikes me as extremely implausible. If he was the leader of the Others, that suggests that he was contacted as a young boy, as Locke and Ben were. If he passed the type of test that Richard gave to Locke in 56, then he would have been on the island for perhaps 10 years in 1954. For all we know, he was BORN on the island! I categorically reject the claim that Widmore's statement leads to him leaving the island in 1954.

First, I clarified my statement by saying that at the latest he was there until 1984.

Second, Ben arrived on the island when he was 11. He told us in this latest episode he spoke with Richard 4 years ago. So even though he was contacted as a young child, he's still not a part of the others when he's 15. Widmore was 17 in 1954. So if he didn't join the others until around the same age Ben joined the Others, he's only been part of them for 2 years. So then if he protected the island for 30 years, that means he was there from 1952 to 1982.

If Widmore was 10 when he joined the Others, then he was protecting the island from 1947 to 1977. Furthermore, I doubt a 10 year old boy would consider himself as a protector of the island. So the time still does match up really well for Widmore to leave the island in the late 70s to early 80s like I said.

ortrules

03-27-2009, 07:43 PM

Widmore and Ben are different people. I don't see him risking his life for anything. He even let his own adopted daughter die in front of his eyes to save his own butt.

Watching Alex die is not the same. As soon as Alex was killed, Ben mentioned that "he broke the rules". It would seem that Ben and Widmore have certain rules of engagement, which I would imagine are somewhat similar to the rules of the truce between Dharma and the Hostiles. According to those rules, Alex wasn't supposed to be killed. Yet she was, hence, he broke the rules. Ben didn't "let her die" he simply believed that according to their rules, she wouldn't be harmed and Keamy was just trying to threaten him.

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 07:48 PM

First, I clarified my statement by saying that at the latest he was there until 1984.

Second, Ben arrived on the island when he was 11. He told us in this latest episode he spoke with Richard 4 years ago. So even though he was contacted as a young child, he's still not a part of the others when he's 15. Widmore was 17 in 1954. So if he didn't join the others until around the same age Ben joined the Others, he's only been part of them for 2 years. So then if he protected the island for 30 years, that means he was there from 1952 to 1982.

If Widmore was 10 when he joined the Others, then he was protecting the island from 1947 to 1977. Furthermore, I doubt a 10 year old boy would consider himself as a protector of the island. So the time still does match up really well for Widmore to leave the island in the late 70s to early 80s like I said.
If Widmore was born on the island, and left at 30, he may very well have said that he and his people collectively protected the island for 30 years. My point is that it is very very very unlikely that Widmore actually left in 1984, because that means he had just arrived on the island when we saw him in 1954, and he wasn't exactly acting like a newbie.

There is a 17-year window for when his time on the island started, so it seems kind of odd to focus on the last mathematically possible day for him to leave as having some critical insight. Besides, if he turned the wheel in 1984, he would have needed to blow up the Orchid to do it, and since the Orchid was fine in 2004, that suggests that if Widmore turned the wheel, he did so before the Orchid was built.

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 07:49 PM

Watching Alex die is not the same. As soon as Alex was killed, Ben mentioned that "he broke the rules". It would seem that Ben and Widmore have certain rules of engagement, which I would imagine are somewhat similar to the rules of the truce between Dharma and the Hostiles. According to those rules, Alex wasn't supposed to be killed. Yet she was, hence, he broke the rules. Ben didn't "let her die" he simply believed that according to their rules, she wouldn't be harmed and Keamy was just trying to threaten him.
And yet, I doubt he would have taken the same risk with his own life...

ortrules

03-27-2009, 07:55 PM

If Widmore was born on the island, and left at 30, he may very well have said that he and his people collectively protected the island for 30 years. My point is that it is very very very unlikely that Widmore actually left in 1984, because that means he had just arrived on the island when we saw him in 1954, and he wasn't exactly acting like a newbie.

There is a 17-year window for when his time on the island started, so it seems kind of odd to focus on the last mathematically possible day for him to leave as having some critical insight. Besides, if he turned the wheel in 1984, he would have needed to blow up the Orchid to do it, and since the Orchid was fine in 2004, that suggests that if Widmore turned the wheel, he did so before the Orchid was built.

I'm not focusing on that last possible mathematical day.

I again remind you - Ben was approached by Richard when he was 11. Yet when he was 15, he still wasn't a part of the Others. Locke was approached by Richard when he was 5, and then it wasn't until age 16 that Locke was invited to "Mittelos Laboratories" - the same cover up used when the Others drafted Juliet.

Unless Widmore was born on the island, which I find highly unlikely given the Others fertility problems and their desire to steal babies (which Amy referred to in the Dharma meeting). So it's like he was brought to the island and joined the Others when he was 15 or 16. The gives him 1 or 2 years to integrate with the Others, more than enough time to no longer be a "newbie"

So if Widmore got to the island when he was 15, then 30 years means he was on the island from 1952 to 1982. And if he got there earlier, say when he was 10, then he'd be on the island from 1947-1977. Both give plenty of room for him to the leader of the Others while Sawyer and company are in Dharma time, and plenty of time for him to turn the wheel.

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 08:01 PM

I'm not focusing on that last possible mathematical day.

I again remind you - Ben was approached by Richard when he was 11. Yet when he was 15, he still wasn't a part of the Others. Locke was approached by Richard when he was 5, and then it wasn't until age 16 that Locke was invited to "Mittelos Laboratories" - the same cover up used when the Others drafted Juliet.

Unless Widmore was born on the island, which I find highly unlikely given the Others fertility problems and their desire to steal babies (which Amy referred to in the Dharma meeting). So it's like he was brought to the island and joined the Others when he was 15 or 16. The gives him 1 or 2 years to integrate with the Others, more than enough time to no longer be a "newbie"

So if Widmore got to the island when he was 15, then 30 years means he was on the island from 1952 to 1982. And if he got there earlier, say when he was 10, then he'd be on the island from 1947-1977. Both give plenty of room for him to the leader of the Others while Sawyer and company are in Dharma time, and plenty of time for him to turn the wheel.
Locke was given a test at 5. He failed, but if he had passed, it was strongly implied that Richard would have brought him to the island. If Widmore passed a test at 5, he could quite easily have been brought at 5, and I have no trouble believing he was born on the island. Ethan was born in 1977 without complication, so whatever created the preganacy problem started after 1977. I don't remember Amy saying anything about Others having a fertility problem. Can you point me to it in the transcript?

Then, I keep going back to the points about turning the wheel. 1) There is no point turning the wheel AFTER Dharma arrives because they'll just find it again, and 2) the Orchid was intact in 2004, which suggests that the wheel hadn't been turned since the Orchid's construction.

2cansam

03-27-2009, 08:22 PM

It dosnt matter if they turn the wheel to travel in time. The Swan Station can also make the island travel in time .

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 08:23 PM

One more point about the supposed other mystery path to the FDW. Hypothetically, let's say there is another tunnel that leads to the chamber that Ben doesn't want to show Locke. If Locke can find the wheel, he can find that path too! If path A leads to destination B, and path C also leads to destination B, then showing someone path A allows them to find path C anyway, so there is no point trying to hide path C.

Besides, I just rewatched the end of Season 4, and there are no other entrances to the FDW chamber.

2cansam

03-27-2009, 08:28 PM

Who cares you don't have to use the Orchid to move the island . I think Desmond and Kelvin where prof of that. The only reason Ben uses the wheel was because the Swan was blowed up .

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 08:33 PM

Who cares you don't have to use the Orchid to move the island . I think Desmond and Kelvin where prof of that. The only reason Ben uses the wheel was because the Swan was blowed up .
The Swan station did not move the island. The detonation just made it visible to the outside world.

2cansam

03-27-2009, 08:42 PM

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 08:48 PM

yeh thats becuse the island was existing in a diffrent time. When Desmond fails to hit the button in the Swan station, he temporarily moves the island to the year 2004. the island was existing in a diffrent time .

Read the theroy .
http://www.timelooptheory.com/the_timeline.html
No. There was an unusual electromagnetic field in that location of the island. A Dharma experiment there created "an incident," and from then on, electromagnetic energy would build up, and need to be dissipated every 108 minutes. Pressing the button dissipated the energy. When Desmond failed to press the button, so much electromagnetic energy built up that it affected a plane overhead, causing it to crash. The button had nothing whatsoever to do with the island moving.

MsSpaceman

03-27-2009, 08:49 PM

I just wanted to throw this out there again, the reason I started this thread.....

I was theorizing that because Charolette found the remains of the polar bear with the DI tags on it in Tunisia, the someone between the time charolette found the bear and the time the DI arrived on the island turned the wheel, or rather, had the bear turn the wheel.

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 08:54 PM

I just wanted to throw this out there again, the reason I started this thread.....

I was theorizing that because Charolette found the remains of the polar bear in Tunisia, the someone between the time charolette found the bear and the time the DI arrived on the island turned the wheel, or rather, had the bear turn the wheel.
I doubt a bear turned the wheel. That would just be too cartoonish. (Not to mention to construction issues that I have pointed out).

However, there is clearly some sort of connection between the energy at the Orchid station and the location in Tunisia (a wormhole, or whatever). More likely, they put a bear in the chamber, did an experiment, something went wrong, and the bear wound up in Tunisia.

Richard_Cranium

03-27-2009, 09:01 PM

MsSpaceman

03-27-2009, 09:10 PM

I doubt a bear turned the wheel. That would just be too cartoonish. (Not to mention to construction issues that I have pointed out).

However, there is clearly some sort of connection between the energy at the Orchid station and the location in Tunisia (a wormhole, or whatever). More likely, they put a bear in the chamber, did an experiment, something went wrong, and the bear wound up in Tunisia.

Let's see....okay, earlier I talked a out the rope in the well after the flash it was in the dirt. Now, if the "we caused this" comment holds up, then maybe someone a LONG time ago found that rope (because that was a short period before the next flash and the well was filled - we don't know WHEN that was) and dug down and for reasons unknown to us at this point, build the wheel....then the DI found the wheel and tested it using the bear. A simple harness and some fish biscuits would do I think!! If they caused everything...that would include the building of the wheel because sawyer held on to the rope leaving it stuck in the dirt.

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 09:16 PM

But the bear figuring out the 3 part fish biscuit is not cartoonish?
I believe the bear turned the wheel just my opinion.
Animals are frequently given puzzles to test their intelligence. However consider the following scenario:

The Dharma people find a frozen wheel buried deep in the ground. They wonder what happens when they turn it, but nobody wants to do it. Someone says, "hey, I've got an idea! Let's try to squeeze a polar bear through this narrow passageway, dump it in the chamber and try to convince it to turn the wheel!" Yes, I find that much more cartoonish than the cage puzzle, which is really no different from putting a rat in a maze.

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 09:20 PM

Let's see....okay, earlier I talked a out the rope in the well after the flash it was in the dirt. Now, if the "we caused this" comment holds up, then maybe someone a LONG time ago found that rope (because that was a short period before the next flash and the well was filled - we don't know WHEN that was) and dug down and for reasons unknown to us at this point, build the wheel....then the DI found the wheel and tested it using the bear. A simple harness and some fish biscuits would do I think!! If they caused everything...that would include the building of the wheel because sawyer held on to the rope leaving it stuck in the dirt.
That is quite a reach. I think it is possible that the rope was stuck in the ground because it flashed with them, but if that is the root cause, that is far too inocuous for them to panic about. The Losties are going to cause problems with something far more dramatic than flashing a rope through time.

MsSpaceman

03-27-2009, 09:51 PM

That is quite a reach. I think it is possible that the rope was stuck in the ground because it flashed with them, but if that is the root cause, that is far too inocuous for them to panic about. The Losties are going to cause problems with something far more dramatic than flashing a rope through time.

All I'm saying is that there is a reason we saw them flash to first....before the well was dug and possibly before the wheel was built, and secondly after the well was filled up. Again, this is a show and I'd like to think that clues we are giving may add up to some fraction of an answer or at least, lead us in a direction. They didn't have to show us the rope in the dirt for us to understand that the losties were traveling through time, simply seeing them flash to the time the well was filled up accomplishes that. There was a reason for that.

This show is about time travel (among many things) - why is it so hard to think that maybe, with all the looping we see and the "we caused this" comment that ironically Sawyer flashing back in time w/the rope actually led to the source of energy being discovered and the wheel being put in place?

We already KNOW that something like this HAS happened before...Future Locke told 1954 Richard to go find himself as a child and gave him the compass. If Richard never gave him the compass when he was a boy - Locke wouldn't have been able to give it to Richard to give to Locke in the first place.

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 09:55 PM

All I'm saying is that there is a reason we saw them flash to first....before the well was dug and possibly before the wheel was built, and secondly after the well was filled up. Again, this is a show and I'd like to think that clues we are giving may add up to some fraction of an answer or at least, lead us in a direction. They didn't have to show us the rope in the dirt for us to understand that the losties were traveling through time, simply seeing them flash to the time the well was filled up accomplishes that. There was a reason for that.

This show is about time travel (among many things) - why is it so hard to think that maybe, with all the looping we see and the "we caused this" comment that ironically Sawyer flashing back in time w/the rope actually led to the source of energy being discovered and the wheel being put in place?

We already KNOW that something like this HAS happened before...Future Locke told 1954 Richard to go find himself as a child and gave him the compass. If Richard never gave him the compass when he was a boy - Locke wouldn't have been able to give it to Richard to give to Locke in the first place.
I agree with you on everything except the rope being central to the plot. It just seems too minor, and I think that the critical consequence of the Losties traveling back in time is going to be about "the incident" at the Swan rather than the rope.

wiley

03-27-2009, 09:59 PM

It's quite possible that the bear was dead when it was transported. How the wheel was turned or how the bear was transported is still unknown. If the bear was alive when transported it likely would have traveled quite a distance before it died. Maybe the incident has everything to do with the bear.

yokogleeton

03-27-2009, 10:50 PM

wiley

03-27-2009, 10:56 PM

Well we don't know how far from the exit point it was where the bear was excavated. Do we?

No except that it was Tunisia and there were only bones left.

MsSpaceman

03-27-2009, 11:18 PM

I agree with you on everything except the rope being central to the plot. It just seems too minor, and I think that the critical consequence of the Losties traveling back in time is going to be about "the incident" at the Swan rather than the rope.

I don't disagree about the critical consequence, but in discussing weather or not the wheel gets turned between the time when the DI arrives on the island and when we first see our losties arrive....the polar bear with the DI tags being in Tunisia tells me that the wheel DOES get turned at some point. Weather or not they strap the bear to it or someone is riding the bear side sadle...it gets turned. This discussion leads me to think about the rope and the time loops. I just don't think the rope in the ground was shown for no reason, and if our losties DID cause all the trouble, it's a possibility that they caused ALL the trouble...including the discovery of the source in the first place. Time Loop.

NoData

03-27-2009, 11:18 PM

Well we don't know how far from the exit point it was where the bear was excavated. Do we?We know the bear was not immediately at the exit point because we did not see the excavation when Ben or Locke exited.

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 11:27 PM

I don't disagree about the critical consequence, but in discussing weather or not the wheel gets turned between the time when the DI arrives on the island and when we first see our losties arrive....the polar bear with the DI tags being in Tunisia tells me that the wheel DOES get turned at some point. Weather or not they strap the bear to it or someone is riding the bear side sadle...it gets turned. This discussion leads me to think about the rope and the time loops. I just don't think the rope in the ground was shown for no reason, and if our losties DID cause all the trouble, it's a possibility that they caused ALL the trouble...including the discovery of the source in the first place. Time Loop.
Again, you are returning to the cartoon image of the bear turning the wheel. There is a much more plausible and much less cartoonish explanation. There is a wormhole connecting the pocket of exotic matter at Orchid to a specific location in the Tunisian desert. Releasing the energy by turning the wheel opens the wormhole. However, we also know that turning the wheel is not the only way to tap into that energy. The purpose of the Orchid station is to tap into it. It seems far more plausible to me that DI wanted to know what happens when you put a living thing into the machine. They did experiments with rabbits, but at some point, they wanted to see what would happen with larger animals. So, they tried a bear. They screwed something up, used too much power, or something like that, and the wormhole opened, zapping the bear into the Tunisian desert.

Now, compare that scenario to trying to push a polar bear through that very narrow passageway and trying to convince it to turn the wheel... Do you seriously think the latter scenario makes more sense?

MsSpaceman

03-27-2009, 11:40 PM

Again, you are returning to the cartoon image of the bear turning the wheel. There is a much more plausible and much less cartoonish explanation. There is a wormhole connecting the pocket of exotic matter at Orchid to a specific location in the Tunisian desert. Releasing the energy by turning the wheel opens the wormhole. However, we also know that turning the wheel is not the only way to tap into that energy. The purpose of the Orchid station is to tap into it. It seems far more plausible to me that DI wanted to know what happens when you put a living thing into the machine. They did experiments with rabbits, but at some point, they wanted to see what would happen with larger animals. So, they tried a bear. They screwed something up, used too much power, or something like that, and the wormhole opened, zapping the bear into the Tunisian desert.

Now, compare that scenario to trying to push a polar bear through that very narrow passageway and trying to convince it to turn the wheel... Do you seriously think the latter scenario makes more sense?

Well, I must admit, that I was only thinking about how we know two people to have turned the wheel and ended up in Tunisia because of it - - that is why my mind goes to ... polar bear w/DI tags in Tunisia = wheel turn. The machine I was not considering.

I'm not saying the bear was wearing a beanie hat and juggling while riding a unicycle...but I really don't see it as cartoon-ish for them to use a big strong bear to pull the wheel if they didn't want any humans getting exiled.

What if Faraday figures out that they need to turn the wheel again, but he knows of the "exile factor" so they need a non-human to do it? It's not that far fetched to me.

Saboteur's Requiem

03-27-2009, 11:44 PM

Again, you are returning to the cartoon image of the bear turning the wheel. There is a much more plausible and much less cartoonish explanation. There is a wormhole connecting the pocket of exotic matter at Orchid to a specific location in the Tunisian desert. Releasing the energy by turning the wheel opens the wormhole. However, we also know that turning the wheel is not the only way to tap into that energy. The purpose of the Orchid station is to tap into it. It seems far more plausible to me that DI wanted to know what happens when you put a living thing into the machine. They did experiments with rabbits, but at some point, they wanted to see what would happen with larger animals. So, they tried a bear. They screwed something up, used too much power, or something like that, and the wormhole opened, zapping the bear into the Tunisian desert.

Now, compare that scenario to trying to push a polar bear through that very narrow passageway and trying to convince it to turn the wheel... Do you seriously think the latter scenario makes more sense?

They could have possibly transported the bear into the chamber, using the machine. It would be ridiculous for us to dismiss the theory that the polar bear couldn't have turned the wheel because he was too big to fit through a hole in the wall. Just like the bunny was transported through time i think so was the polar bear, to the FDW chamber.

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 11:46 PM

Well, I must admit, that I was only thinking about how we know two people to have turned the wheel and ended up in Tunisia because of it - - that is why my mind goes to ... polar bear w/DI tags in Tunisia = wheel turn. The machine I was not considering.

I'm not saying the bear was wearing a beanie hat and juggling while riding a unicycle...but I really don't see it as cartoon-ish for them to use a big strong bear to pull the wheel if they didn't want any humans getting exiled.

What if Faraday figures out that they need to turn the wheel again, but he knows of the "exile factor" so they need a non-human to do it? It's not that far fetched to me.
Even if that is the case, how do they get the bear through that narrow passageway? Beanie or not, the image of trying to get the bear TO the wheel in the first place just strikes me as ridiculous. Watch the end of Season 4 again. Watch how Ben has to get to the wheel. No, picture trying to shove a sedated polar bear through that same route.

Seriously, isn't the machine a more plausible story?

a_number_not_a_name

03-27-2009, 11:48 PM

They could have possibly transported the bear into the chamber, using the machine. It would be ridiculous for us to dismiss the theory that the polar bear couldn't have turned the wheel because he was too big to fit through a hole in the wall. Just like the bunny was transported through time i think so was the polar bear, to the FDW chamber.
The machine isn't a star trek transporter machine. The only other place the wormhole seems to go is Tunisia.

Besides, if they had wanted to test the wheel, they would have done so BEFORE blocking it off with the Orchid machine. They wouldn't build the machine, then decide they wanted to try turning the wheel, teleport a bear to the wheel, then hope it complies by turning the wheel.

chester

03-27-2009, 11:58 PM

How was the wheel built, before the was a well OR a an orchid station? Looks like a pretty big wheel too. They would've had to have had fairly generous access to get in there wouldn't they? Unless they got it at Ikea i guess.

wiley

03-27-2009, 11:59 PM

MsSpaceman

03-28-2009, 12:06 AM

Even if that is the case, how do they get the bear through that narrow passageway? Beanie or not, the image of trying to get the bear TO the wheel in the first place just strikes me as ridiculous. Watch the end of Season 4 again. Watch how Ben has to get to the wheel. No, picture trying to shove a sedated polar bear through that same route.

Seriously, isn't the machine a more plausible story?

Okay, at this point we are arguing something totally different LOL :)

How the bear gets to the wheel, I haven't thought about it yet. What makes anybody think the well hasn't been dug yet? The wheel got there somehow. How about sedate the bear, beanie and all, and lower it down the hole.

If Faraday is there and he's digging what seems to be a tunnel most likely for the wheel...and he discovers that it needs to be moved, what is so hard about getting the bear down there?

wiley

03-28-2009, 12:10 AM

Okay, at this point we are arguing something totally different LOL :)

How the bear gets to the wheel, I haven't thought about it yet. What makes anybody think the well hasn't been dug yet? The wheel got there somehow. How about sedate the bear, beanie and all, and lower it down the hole.

If Faraday is there and he's digging what seems to be a tunnel most likely for the wheel...and he discovers that it needs to be moved, what is so hard about getting the bear down there?

It might also be entirely possible that there is some other access to the force that transports matter to Tunsia, and somehow the bear fell victim to it. The incident may describe this as well as to why they blocked up passages with cement.

a_number_not_a_name

03-28-2009, 12:15 AM

Okay, at this point we are arguing something totally different LOL :)

How the bear gets to the wheel, I haven't thought about it yet. What makes anybody think the well hasn't been dug yet? The wheel got there somehow. How about sedate the bear, beanie and all, and lower it down the hole.

If Faraday is there and he's digging what seems to be a tunnel most likely for the wheel...and he discovers that it needs to be moved, what is so hard about getting the bear down there?
Watch the end of Season 4. Watch the dimensions of the tunnel Ben has to traverse. Then, think about what it would take to get a polar bear through that. Polar bears are not nice creatures. It would have to be sedated, and pushing a sedated polar bear through that tunnel just wouldn't work. Every aspect of the bear-turns-the-wheel story is just too silly.

And as for Ikea and the wheel, the wheel looks far too sturdy.

a_number_not_a_name

03-28-2009, 12:16 AM

It might also be entirely possible that there is some other access to the force that transports matter to Tunsia, and somehow the bear fell victim to it. The incident may describe this as well as to why they blocked up passages with cement.
"The incident" was at Swan station-- quite far from Orchid. However, my whole point is that the machine at Orchid taps into the exotic matter, and the wormhole to Tunisia. That is how it works, so the machine is a more plausible way for the bear to get to Tunisia.

wiley

03-28-2009, 12:28 AM

"The incident" was at Swan station-- quite far from Orchid. However, my whole point is that the machine at Orchid taps into the exotic matter, and the wormhole to Tunisia. That is how it works, so the machine is a more plausible way for the bear to get to Tunisia.

Yeah but according to the map we've seen apparently all of the stations are connected to one central location marked by a giant ?. Could be that central point is where all this exotic matter/electromagnetism/flux capacitor etc.. is located?

a_number_not_a_name

03-28-2009, 12:31 AM

Yeah but according to the map we've seen apparently all of the stations are connected to one central location marked by a giant ?. Could be that central point is where all this exotic matter/electromagnetism/flux capacitor etc.. is located?
No. The exotic matter is at the Orchid. That is why they built the Orchid there. The magnetic anomaly is at the Swan. That is why they built the Swan there. The magnetic anomaly and the exotic matter are separate phenomona, in separate parts of the island.

MsSpaceman

03-28-2009, 12:33 AM

It might also be entirely possible that there is some other access to the force that transports matter to Tunsia, and somehow the bear fell victim to it. The incident may describe this as well as to why they blocked up passages with cement.

Maybe I'm being a simpleton but, to me from what we've been shown....you turn wheel, you end up in Tunisia. I understand what you are saying though, energy minus wheel still sends you to Tunisia. I just think it's significant to our timeline...Dharma bear found and since we k ow the years they were operating on the island we may be able to deduce that the wheel was turned before.

a_number_not_a_name

03-28-2009, 12:38 AM

Maybe I'm being a simpleton but, to me from what we've been shown....you turn wheel, you end up in Tunisia. I understand what you are saying though, energy minus wheel still sends you to Tunisia. I just think it's significant to our timeline...Dharma bear found and since we k ow the years they were operating on the island we may be able to deduce that the wheel was turned before.
You seriously think that shoving a sedated bear through a narrow tunnel and hoping it turns the wheel is more plausible than a glitch in the machine at the Orchid station?!

MsSpaceman

03-28-2009, 12:38 AM

Watch the end of Season 4. Watch the dimensions of the tunnel Ben has to traverse. Then, think about what it would take to get a polar bear through that. Polar bears are not nice creatures. It would have to be sedated, and pushing a sedated polar bear through that tunnel just wouldn't work. Every aspect of the bear-turns-the-wheel story is just too silly.

And as for Ikea and the wheel, the wheel looks far too sturdy.

Maybe I missed something but, how do we know when they filled the well? We've seen Faraday digging underground, how do you know they didn't go down the well to beging tunneling outward? What tells us when the well was filled?

MsSpaceman

03-28-2009, 12:45 AM

You seriously think that shoving a sedated bear through a narrow tunnel and hoping it turns the wheel is more plausible than a glitch in the machine at the Orchid station?!

I get why you think it's silly, especially if it was wearing a beanie :)

I never suggested they sent the bear on it's way and hoped it would turn the wheel. You are right, the wheel isn't the only way to harness the energy.

What then, do you think was the purpose in the SHOW lost making a point of showing that? What is that piece of knowledge supposed to lead us to?

chester

03-28-2009, 12:45 AM

Maybe I'm being a simpleton but, to me from what we've been shown....you turn wheel, you end up in Tunisia. I understand what you are saying though, energy minus wheel still sends you to Tunisia. I just think it's significant to our timeline...Dharma bear found and since we k ow the years they were operating on the island we may be able to deduce that the wheel was turned before.

Even the whole "turn the wheel, get zapped to Tunisia some time later" notion is just speculation. All we have seen is the bright light when the wheel gets turned (and when skipping), and next we just see the turner on his back in the desert of Tunisia. We have seen nothing of what happens in between - it is just assumed that the two events are imediately connected. Is that assumption correct?

MsSpaceman

03-28-2009, 12:54 AM

Even the whole "turn the wheel, get zapped to Tunisia some time later" notion is just speculation. All we have seen is the bright light when the wheel gets turned (and when skipping), and next we just see the turner on his back in the desert of Tunisia. We have seen nothing
of what happens in between - it is just assumed that the two events are imediately connected. Is that assumption correct?

I know I'm making that connection when maybe it's not that simple. After all the circles and what if's I go through I was just trying to look at it from a person watching a tv show. What is the purpose of showing us that bear? That is what I'm trying to figure out. Maybe thinking 'turn wheel, go to Tunisia' is how I'm being thrown off. on the other hand formulating something from almost nothing isn't necessarily accurate either.

So I pose a new question...why did they choose to show us the bear in Tunisia? Thoughts?

imascootinspook

03-28-2009, 01:01 AM

About the possibility of Widmore turning the wheel, I have my doubts. How much of a possibility is it, from what we have so far seen, that Penny was born on the island?
Her age is right.

chester

03-28-2009, 01:02 AM

I know I'm making that connection when maybe it's not that simple. After all the circles and what if's I go through I was just trying to look at it from a person watching a tv show. What is the purpose of showing us that bear? That is what I'm trying to figure out. Maybe thinking 'turn wheel, go to Tunisia' is how I'm being thrown off. on the other hand formulating something from almost nothing isn't necessarily accurate either.

So I pose a new question...why did they choose to show us the bear in Tunisia? Thoughts?

my belief is that the set-up at the Hydra was to condition the p-bears (and presumably aquatic animals as well) to perform certain tasks. Pushing a knife&fork button was just a simple example (you always start of with simple tasks then gradually get more complicated, according to BF Skinner). Turning the wheel, seems to end you up in Tunisia, however it happens. There was a p-bear skeleton in found in Tunisia(ish) with at Hydra station logo on its collar. Putting all that together I end up with at least one trained bear turned the wheel. There could be other explanations, but that makes the most sense to me, at present. I am always ready to change my opinions when given new information, however.

MsSpaceman

03-28-2009, 01:04 AM

About the possibility of Widmore turning the wheel, I have my doubts. How much of a possibility is it, from what we have so far seen, that Penny was born on the island?
Her age is right.

I've been meaning to ask someone, because I don't recall....did Widmore admit to turning the wheel as far as being exiled? Or did he just say he was exiled from the island?

a_number_not_a_name

03-28-2009, 01:08 AM

I know I'm making that connection when maybe it's not that simple. After all the circles and what if's I go through I was just trying to look at it from a person watching a tv show. What is the purpose of showing us that bear? That is what I'm trying to figure out. Maybe thinking 'turn wheel, go to Tunisia' is how I'm being thrown off. on the other hand formulating something from almost nothing isn't necessarily accurate either.

So I pose a new question...why did they choose to show us the bear in Tunisia? Thoughts?
From a literary perspective, the bear skeleton served several purposes. First, it connected Tunisia to the island. If I remember correctly, we saw Charlotte there before Ben arrived, so that when we saw Ben there later, we would make the connection. Second, it introduced Charlotte, and it did so in a way that indicated she knew something about Dharma. Third, it was cool and weird.

a_number_not_a_name

03-28-2009, 01:09 AM

I've been meaning to ask someone, because I don't recall....did Widmore admit to turning the wheel as far as being exiled? Or did he just say he was exiled from the island?
He claimed that Ben tricked him into turning the wheel, but as I've said, I'm pretty sure that was a lie, and I posted a thread about it a while back. I think he did turn the wheel, but not because Ben tricked him.

2cansam

03-28-2009, 01:20 AM

The Swan Station's Blast Door claims that there was, at one time, an underground tunnel network that connected many of the stations. Notations on the map suggest that the tunnels started falling into disrepair in the early 1980s, around the time the alleged "incident" occurred. So they where in use in 1977.

MsSpaceman

03-28-2009, 01:21 AM

He claimed that Ben tricked him into turning the wheel, but as I've said, I'm pretty sure that was a lie, and I posted a thread about it a while back. I think he did turn the wheel, but not because Ben tricked him.

Ugh, I hate all the "what if he/she was lying" stuff, it makes me crazy!!! :)

I want to make a list of any, if at all, possible lies we have confirmed to shed some light on it a bit. I mean, if anybody could be lying about anything they say then any outcome is possible for many things, which doesn't make for the best storyline IMHO.

I agree the bear in Tunisia was a good way of introducing Charolette and letting us know she was also searching for the island. And at the very least we know that one of the DI's polar bears was transported via the energy, somehow. I can't wait for the answer! I WANT AN ANSWER ABOUT THE DAMN POLAR BEAR!!!

a_number_not_a_name

03-28-2009, 01:26 AM

Ugh, I hate all the "what if he/she was lying" stuff, it makes me crazy!!! :)

I want to make a list of any, if at all, possible lies we have confirmed to shed some light on it a bit. I mean, if anybody could be lying about anything they say then any outcome is possible for many things, which doesn't make for the best storyline IMHO.

I agree the bear in Tunisia was a good way of introducing Charolette and letting us know she was also searching for the island. And at the very least we know that one of the DI's polar bears was transported via the energy, somehow. I can't wait for the answer! I WANT AN ANSWER ABOUT THE DAMN POLAR BEAR!!!
If lies bother you, then change the channel every time Ben shows up on screen. Otherwise, just learn to deal with it.

chester

03-28-2009, 01:40 AM

Ugh, I hate all the "what if he/she was lying" stuff, it makes me crazy!!! :)

I want to make a list of any, if at all, possible lies we have confirmed to shed some light on it a bit. I mean, if anybody could be lying about anything they say then any outcome is possible for many things, which doesn't make for the best storyline IMHO.

I agree the bear in Tunisia was a good way of introducing Charolette and letting us know she was also searching for the island. And at the very least we know that one of the DI's polar bears was transported via the energy, somehow. I can't wait for the answer! I WANT AN ANSWER ABOUT THE DAMN POLAR BEAR!!!

LOL There are no answers, only opinions, more questions, and the next episode.

MsSpaceman

03-28-2009, 01:47 AM

If lies bother you, then change the channel every time Ben shows up on screen. Otherwise, just learn to deal with it.

Well, I don't think Ben is always lying. And like I said, too many lies would make this show such just as much as if it turned out ben was a twin or it was all a dream. Too many lies leads us nowhere and I believe that there are pieces we are given to make accurate predictions.

It's all a game, that is clear.

a_number_not_a_name

03-28-2009, 02:14 AM

Well, I don't think Ben is always lying. And like I said, too many lies would make this show such just as much as if it turned out ben was a twin or it was all a dream. Too many lies leads us nowhere and I believe that there are pieces we are given to make accurate predictions.

It's all a game, that is clear.
Every once in a while, Ben speaks the truth, but one of the things I like about the show is the ambiguity that comes from having characters who aren't always honest people. To pick on star trek again, starfleet officer types are boring.