The Man With the Red Shoes

[notsolost42]

When Desmond was trying to buy the engagement ring for Penny in Flashes Before Your Eyes, and Mrs. Hawking stops him she takes him outside to explain how the universe course correction works is a scene we are all pretty familiar with already. She buys a bag of chestnuts and points to the man wearing red shoes. Desmond watches as the man is killed beneath a scaffolding when it falls on him, leaving only his red shoes sticking out. Kind of like when the house landed on the witch in the Wizard of Oz and if I remember correctly, most of the conversation generated was about that theme connection. Mrs. Hawking goes on to explain course correction to Desmond.

Could that theme connection, the Wizard of Oz, have been a distraction from what we should have been asking at the time? How did Mrs. Eloise Hawking know that the man with the red shoes was about to die? There is still no answer to that question. How many choices does that leave us? Not many. I think she is a time traveler. I have posted this one before. That is how she knows. She is able to time jump consciously at will. If this is the case that would have a huge impact on the storyline now. It makes me think of Richard Alpert.

I am beginning to wonder if many of these theme related events on Lost are nothing more than a magicians trick of distraction when they perform an illusion. They are taking us away from what we should be focusing on and focusing our attention on what they want us to see. This is a definite possibility in my books. Are TPTB the magicians? Most likely, yes.

[Jeremy]

Perhaps. Maybe Desmond will soon be able to time travel at will as well and possibly stop something that was/is "supposed" to happen.

Either that or Hawking somehow knows what will happen. Maybe time isn't quite so linear after all and thus knows the "future" by researching the "past". Except, of course, such a minute detail as a man with red shoes dieing probably wouldn't have been recorded.

[notsolost42]

Perhaps. Maybe Desmond will soon be able to time travel at will as well and possibly stop something that was/is "supposed" to happen.

Either that or Hawking somehow knows what will happen. Maybe time isn't quite so linear after all and thus knows the "future" by researching the "past". Except, of course, such a minute detail as a man with red shoes dieing probably wouldn't have been recorded.

Jeremy, what do you mean wouldn't be recorded? Recorded where? Lostpedia? They actually have a page dedicated to it. Not much info but it was important enough of an event to record it there on its own.
And maybe you are right about Desmond. Maybe he just doesn't know it yet. Like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz. She was wearing the red shoes for a while before she was told all she had to do was click her heels together to go home! She didn't know it either! Red shoes!!! Hahaha!!!

[Jeremy]

Recorded as in, a person known as "the man with the red shoes" wouldn't be put in an obituary. Maybe Hawking actually found out his name and everything, but it seems more likely she had witnessed it before than read about him.

Still, I think it's possible that time in Lost is circular in that, let's say the world would "end" in 2010, just because. But perhaps after that, everything starts over, exactly as it had played out before. Maybe those like Hawking remember it from before or know about it, and thus can try to prevent it.

[notsolost42]

Recorded as in, a person known as "the man with the red shoes" wouldn't be put in an obituary. Maybe Hawking actually found out his name and everything, but it seems more likely she had witnessed it before than read about him.

Still, I think it's possible that time in Lost is circular in that, let's say the world would "end" in 2010, just because. But perhaps after that, everything starts over, exactly as it had played out before. Maybe those like Hawking remember it from before or know about it, and thus can try to prevent it.

Yes, I agree that it would have been unlikely for Hawking to read his obit in the paper in advance. If she knew anything in advance I would have to go with her just knowing the guy was going to die.
I also agree with you about a time loop. I have talked about that about a billion times! LOL!!! Perhaps if it is a loop, then that is why she knows. But one thing is for sure, she is very special and I don't think we've seen all of it yet!

[Jeremy]

You know, we have so much in common. You should do my schoolwork. :p

Yeah, I've been wondering if we would be seeing her again after 316. Of course, it's almost inevitable they'll run into the 1977 Ellie, but I'm not sure about the one in 2007. Maybe we'll get a Charles centric episode and we'll find out what their relationship is.

[notsolost42]

You know, we have so much in common. You should do my schoolwork. :p

Yeah, I've been wondering if we would be seeing her again after 316. Of course, it's almost inevitable they'll run into the 1977 Ellie, but I'm not sure about the one in 2007. Maybe we'll get a Charles centric episode and we'll find out what their relationship is.

I do think the 2007 Ellie will make an appearance on the island! All she has to do is click her heels together and do the time warp to get there! Seriously though, yes, she will make an on island appearance! Wait and see!!!!!
P.S....about your homework, I've already done it!!!!!! Now it's your turn! But if you need some help just PM me and I'll see what I can do!

[Jeremy]

How do you know? Have you read spoilers? I can't seem to find any good ones...
If she does return to the island, I wonder if she'll interact with Locke when(or if) he gets back to wherever the Others are now.

Well, my homework does involve time travelling bunnies. Basically, if Bunny A experiences time normally at 55 mph, and Bunny B goes in reverse at 150 mph, does it really matter since they're really both the same bunny anyway>

[bunnydixon]

interesting idea - especially after the 'how did you get here' comment to richard this episode. like he KNEW already. however, i still believe that it was locke who brought time travel to their attention.

[ortrules]

How did Mrs. Eloise Hawking know that the man with the red shoes was about to die? There is still no answer to that question. How many choices does that leave us? Not many. I think she is a time traveler.

Or maybe she just knew the same way Desmond knew Charlie was going to die.

I don't buy the idea that anyone can time travel at any time. The only instances of time travel we've seen on the show are a result of some other event. Ben jumped into the future after turning the wheel, Sawyer and co went back to 1977 as a result of the wheel, Desmond time traveled after the hatch implosion and then again when Frank slightly veered off the correct bearing.

[rochnative]

More and more this is starting to remind me of the book Slaughterhouse 5 by Kurt Vonegut. The main character randomly jumps to different parts of his life and lives them over and over again. He cannot do anything differently than what he origionally did, nor does he want to. Not everyone reminds me of this, but Desmond and Eloise (possibly) have shown that they will revisit different periods of their prior life. While Desmond attempts to make changes and handle himslef differently he realizes that what he did the first time would be the ultimate result of what he does each subsequent time.

[bunnydixon]

perhaps the information is being relayed to them via someone else?

[natego]

It seems pretty obvious she knows the future so, my vote is with her as a time traveler at will (if it was unvoluntary like Desmond, wouldn't she get nosebleeds? And if she found her constant to prevent them, wouldn't that end her time-jumping as it did for Desmond?). And, it also seems pretty clear her goal is to save the world from ending (i.e "God help us all") so, it also seems reasonable to think that she saw the end of the world, but somehow time traveled back in order to try to change events to prevent the end of the world. Of course this is anti WHH, but whatever.....

[Simon Blackrock]

maybe she is special like Des. maybe sometime on the island she was exposed to an em blast similiar to when Des tuns the key. but she is more advanced at controlling her powers because she is older and more experienced.

[notsolost42]

All great input! Wow! I personally think she is some kind of a time lord. As Christian is some type of guide through time. That is what he seems to be doing. He is showing a path to someone that they need to take in time. To help in course correction. But Ellie Hawking is more of a time jumper I'm thinking. I hope we get to see Brother Campbell back also! I think they may both be the same kind of time lords. As for why Desmond knew Charlie was going to die, well I think that he had been suffering from what I've always called the "Slingshot Effect" from the blast of EM he got when he turned the failsafe key. It seemed to me that it threw him back in time and he kept bouncing back and forth from past to present but it is pretty clear now that it may have thrown him in the future as well.
As to why we haven't seen this kind of time travel on the show before, well yes. That is true. But just because we haven't seen it yet doesn't mean it may not happen. We are constantly seeing new things on the show. As for how she obtained this ability, who knows, maybe it does have to do with the Incident. The incident may be responsible for a bunch of things like the pregnancy issues, this type of time travel, or who knows what! The best part is, we'll find out soon!

[bunnydixon]

im wondering if its possible she has some ability like walt and miles?

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

Good thread, NotSo.
Nagego, I agree that Eloise couldn't be doing this like Desmond - no ill effects with her.
She's def someone with some degree of clout, for sure. Time Lord of a sort, perhaps.
She's probably directing things for the "good" (and obviously is not intimidated whatsoever by Ben) but I still don't like her. :p

[Chelebella]

Could that theme connection, the Wizard of Oz, have been a distraction from what we should have been asking at the time? How did Mrs. Eloise Hawking know that the man with the red shoes was about to die?

An even bigger question is how did she know that Desmond had managed to "pop" back in time, and would be at that store, at that time, buying Penny a ring? This requires an intricate knowledge of past, present and future events. Eloise seemed to be working at the store, so I wondered too about that. Did she just appear, explain to the store owner that she needed to convince someone not to buy a ring in order to "save us all" and they put her behind the counter? Was Redshoes the owner of the store and she killed him? Who knows?

I think there is only one answer. Ellie (or someone she works for) can see future and past events. If time is a loop, one might say they can see all of time, as one picture, instead of a line.

So, of course she knew where Desmond would be, as well as what he needed to do. She also knew the man with the red shoes would die, and that his death would help convince Desmond that she spoke the truth. Of course, she may have just been manipulating him.

All of this has led me to conclude that both sides, good and evil (and I still have no idea which side is which) are not trying to change anything that happened in the past - because they cannot - but rather trying to change something that will happen in the future.

[Chelebella]

...it also seems reasonable to think that she saw the end of the world, but somehow time traveled back in order to try to change events to prevent the end of the world. Of course this is anti WHH, but whatever.....

It seems to me that the science of what happened, happened is pretty solid. But, though we cannot change the past, we can change our futures.

This is how Desmond was able to save Charlie over and over again. Desmond had seen Charlie die in the FUTURE. He was able to be there to save Charlie over and over again from death. Eventually (after Eloise told him so) he realized that he could only put off Charlie's death for a time, but that it was inevitable.

So, if Eloise/Charles are each trying to change something that is to happen in the future (the war, the end of the world, whatever), how would they do that if they cannot change anything that happened in the past? Perhaps by altering things they can change, giving the players new experiences and knowledge in their present time that will ultimately change the choices they make in their futures (when they have freewill to make any choice they wish).

How many times have you wished you could go back in time and change something you did? Knowing you can never do that, you change the way you are today, so as not to repeat the mistakes you made in the past.

To me, this show has always had a central theme of change and redemption. Almost every character has made mistakes they wish they could change. Almost all of them have grown and today, after all they have gone through on the island and off, most of them are not the same people they were when that plane first crashed. Some of them are already altering their behavior in present-time.

How will that effect the "war" and the ultimate end-game between good and evil? I think it's obvious - some people will have learned and truly changed enough to make new choices, others not so much but, in the end, enough of them will have changed so that new choices will be made and the future will change.

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

She did say, "God help us all"....referring, if I remember correctly, to getting them all back there in order to thwart something occuring in the future...right?

[Jeremy]

But what exactly is all this talk about the future? It all seems pretty relative to me. If the show had started when Desmond was telling everyone that it wasn't Penny's boaat, or when Ben sent that flaming Dharma van into a house, or some time we haven't seen yet, to use, it would be then that would be the present and other parts would be the past or the future. They are really just terms humans use.

[Chelebella]

OK. No future, no past, no present...all one big time loop happening all at once, with no name for any part of it.

In that case, it would be easier to say that what happened, happened (and so cannot be altered) and what hasn't happened, hasn't happened and can be altered or effected.

If nothing can ever be changed anywhere in the time loop (past, present, future or whatever name you choose to call (or not call) those "points in time"), so many people (who seem to have a lot more knowledge of how this stuff works than we do) wouldn't be trying to be doing just that - change something, or ensure something goes down as planned.

[Jeremy]

I'm not saying it can't be changed(by those who can either jump back and forth in their own minds, or otherwise know what has or will happen), but past and future is relative, so I think that if they can change the future, they could as easily change the past.

[notsolost42]

An even bigger question is how did she know that Desmond had managed to "pop" back in time, and would be at that store, at that time, buying Penny a ring? This requires an intricate knowledge of past, present and future events. Eloise seemed to be working at the store, so I wondered too about that. Did she just appear, explain to the store owner that she needed to convince someone not to buy a ring in order to "save us all" and they put her behind the counter? Was Redshoes the owner of the store and she killed him? Who knows?

I think there is only one answer. Ellie (or someone she works for) can see future and past events. If time is a loop, one might say they can see all of time, as one picture, instead of a line.

So, of course she knew where Desmond would be, as well as what he needed to do. She also knew the man with the red shoes would die, and that his death would help convince Desmond that she spoke the truth. Of course, she may have just been manipulating him.

All of this has led me to conclude that both sides, good and evil (and I still have no idea which side is which) are not trying to change anything that happened in the past - because they cannot - but rather trying to change something that will happen in the future.

Actually, I don't see it as the bigger question at all. Here's my thoughts. What Desmond saw, when he walked into the little shop with Ellie, the man with the red shoes, all of it..........was an illusion! It was just a dimensional shift that Mrs. Hawking controled. She manipulated it all. None of it was real, per say. Desmond believed it to be a real experience but it never happened. Not in the real sense anyway. She created this "universe or dimension" where it all occured. Right down to Desmond having that picture taken. Do you realize how many copies of that picure we've seen so far? Desmond had his copy in the hatch. Penny had her copy framed by her bed. Naomi had a copy when she parachuted onto the island. Mrs. Eloise Hawking is a time lord!

[Jeremy]

Speaking of that, when Desmond does time travel in such a way, did it always happen like that? Would it create memory problems for the "past" Desmond, who would be overiden by the "present" Desmond's mind?

[notsolost42]

Speaking of that, when Desmond does time travel in such a way, did it always happen like that? Would it create memory problems for the "past" Desmond, who would be overiden by the "present" Desmond's mind?

When Des time jumped he did so into his mind of that time period. When he was on the frieghter for example, he was in his 1994 military head when he jumped. In fact, when he returned he returned in his 1994 head for a while. When he looked into the mirror Minkowski even remarked to him that he looked a lot older. In other words, Des didn't exactly recognize why he looked so old. After speaking with Penny, his mind was resolved and settled.

[krakup]

Actually, I don't see it as the bigger question at all. Here's my thoughts. What Desmond saw, when he walked into the little shop with Ellie, the man with the red shoes, all of it..........was an illusion! It was just a dimensional shift that Mrs. Hawking controled. She manipulated it all. None of it was real, per say. Desmond believed it to be a real experience but it never happened. Not in the real sense anyway. She created this "universe or dimension" where it all occured. Right down to Desmond having that picture taken. Do you realize how many copies of that picure we've seen so far? Desmond had his copy in the hatch. Penny had her copy framed by her bed. Naomi had a copy when she parachuted onto the island. Mrs. Eloise Hawking is a time lord!

didn't tptb say she was like a temporal policewoman? when abbadon said "he gets ppl to where they need to be" i thought that sounded similar to what mrs H is doing

[notsolost42]

didn't tptb say she was like a temporal policewoman? when abbadon said "he gets ppl to where they need to be" i thought that sounded similar to what mrs H is doing

I think of her position as even higher than Abaddon's. She seems to be more "in control" of events to make things happen. Abaddon was definitly the guy who helped get people where they needed to be. I like that temeral policewoman thing. I never heard it before. Time lord, time cop! Sounds good to me! Thanks!

[mhzmike]

previously on "LOST"....

Eloise Hawking lived and breathed the Island like Richard Alpert,and these two have advanced special knowledge of how the Island works. It's easy to believe they learned how to travel through time...Question: Was she the woman who conducted "the trial "at the Hydra ???...you know when Juliette was found guilty ?? remember ???
........................do not attempt to adjust your television sets........

[notsolost42]

previously on "LOST"....

Eloise Hawking lived and breathed the Island like Richard Alpert,and these two have advanced special knowledge of how the Island works. It's easy to believe they learned how to travel through time...Question: Was she the woman who conducted "the trial "at the Hydra ???...you know when Juliette was found guilty ?? remember ???
........................do not attempt to adjust your television sets........

No, she wasn't. It was a different actress and she had a different name. The time frame would have allowed for the Eloise that we know in the present to be "herself" in that scene. Just a few years different. But, as for the rest of what you said, absolutely! Eloise and Richard can most certainly time travel without donkey wheels or the orchid pod! I believe dear Brother Campbell fits in there as well.

[Jeremy]

When Des time jumped he did so into his mind of that time period. When he was on the frieghter for example, he was in his 1994 military head when he jumped. In fact, when he returned he returned in his 1994 head for a while. When he looked into the mirror Minkowski even remarked to him that he looked a lot older. In other words, Des didn't exactly recognize why he looked so old. After speaking with Penny, his mind was resolved and settled.

I'm not sure if I'm understanding(probably because I'm up so late and haven't been getting enough sleep), and it's hard to explain, but what I mean is, before Desmond actually jumped back to that point in his life, did events always turn out the way they did? Did he always meet Hawking and have the same conversations with her, or did he always meet Charlie when he was playing Wonderwall? Did he always go and meet Faraday at Oxford or tell Penny that he'd call her eight years later?

I guess we could say it turned out somewhat that way, considering Faraday got those eleven hertz things for his time machine from Desmond...unless he figured that out by himself or from somewhere else, and there was a bit of course correction involved when Desmond met him.

[notsolost42]

I'm not sure if I'm understanding(probably because I'm up so late and haven't been getting enough sleep), and it's hard to explain, but what I mean is, before Desmond actually jumped back to that point in his life, did events always turn out the way they did? Did he always meet Hawking and have the same conversations with her, or did he always meet Charlie when he was playing Wonderwall? Did he always go and meet Faraday at Oxford or tell Penny that he'd call her eight years later?

I guess we could say it turned out somewhat that way, considering Faraday got those eleven hertz things for his time machine from Desmond...unless he figured that out by himself or from somewhere else, and there was a bit of course correction involved when Desmond met him.

Yes, those things always happened. I just think that Mrs. Hawking may have "highjacked" Desmond to show him what the rules were. Once it happened it always happened but I think it happened in a different dimension or universe perhaps.

[sphinrylee]

does anyone remember an episode where eloise stops time while she's talking to someone in a flashback...?

i distinctly remember eloise having a conversation with someone off island where time was frozen completely still

I original thought it may have been with desmond, in either "the constant" or "flashes before your eyes", but i've looked and looked and can't find anything

this is really bugging me

can anyone help?