"He changed the rules"

[Tahami]

OK, given what we saw in this episode, what did Ben mean when he said "he changed the rules?" Who, and what?

[krakup]

OK, given what we saw in this episode, what did Ben mean when he said "he changed the rules?" Who, and what?

u start :)

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

OK, given what we saw in this episode, what did Ben mean when he said "he changed the rules?" Who, and what?

That was a little unclear but here is what happened: We think/thought a big rule was that neither Ben or Widmore could go after each others families, and having Keemy kill Alex was what shocked Ben and made him say, "He (Widmore) changed the rules."
Then when it showed Widmore having to leave the island, Ben commented that Widmore made the infraction of having a child with an outsider, someone not an islander, and evidently came and went at will, living two lives. And apparantly Widmore made decisions on his own despite Jacob's orders (which Ben challenged when he posed the question to Widmore as to whether Jacob actually wanted innocent baby Alex killed - to which Widmore had nothing to say then)... Maybe much of this also contributed to Widmore's being escorted off the island.
Anyone else ?

[krakup]

That was a little unclear but here is what happened: We think/thought a big rule was that neither Ben or Widmore could go after each others families, and having Keemy kill Alex was what shocked Ben and made him say, "He (Widmore) changed the rules."
Then when it showed Widmore having to leave the island, Ben commented that Widmore made the infraction of having a child with an outsider, someone not an islander, and evidently came and went at will, living two lives. And apparantly Widmore made decisions on his own despite Jacob's orders (which Ben challenged when he posed the question to Widmore as to whether Jacob actually wanted innocent baby Alex killed - to which Widmore had nothing to say then)... Maybe much of this also contributed to Widmore's being escorted off the island.
Anyone else ?

yeah not bad summary, how about when they were questioning whether or not it was alex's destiny to die, neither of them were 100% certain? as for the rules, perhaps it is the famous book of law or some teaching of the others along with latin

[Panda]

What I don't understand is how it could be a like a crime to the Island if you would make a child with a "non Islander".
Penny seems to be a wonderful woman. What can the Island have against her to be born form Charles and a "non Islander"? The result of this action is beautiful and she seems to be a loving person....?

What kind of rule is it that that it is prohibited to have children with "non Islander"?

[5starboss]

What I don't understand is how it could be a like a crime to the Island if you would make a child with a "non Islander".
Penny seems to be a wonderful woman. What can the Island have against her to be born form Charles and a "non Islander"? The result of this action is beautiful and she seems to be a loving person....?

What kind of rule is it that that it is prohibited to have children with "non Islander"?

Exactly Panda, and Ben was an outsider and the Island needed/chose to heal and use him for the leader after Widmore.

As far as the rules, Ben also admitted to breaking the rules and knew he'd get judged for it. What doesn't make sense to me isthis:

Widmore says kill the baby. Ben disobeys. Ben later "kills" the baby and is judged for it. what gives?

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

I am not saying I'm a hundred per cent sure on this, but I'm thinking more along the lines of Ben being too full of himself and as a result of recklessly calling Keamy's bluff, Alex died. In that respect, I don't think the island "wanted" Alex dead. But it certainly used ALex's image to get its message through to Ben.
Widmore was calling shots on his own, saying to kill the baby. When Ben cornered him, he looked away and shut up.

If, on the other hand, the island wanted her to be dead, this is what occurred to me:
I do kind of wonder if MANY of Ben's actions were an effort to keep Alex alive through the years. If the island wanted her dead, (that's a big IF), maybe that's why he "contained" Jacob in the cabin using those ashes in a circle around the cabin. ??? Thoughts on that???

[Turnip Queen]

I don't know the answer, BUT the game theme came up yet again this episode. Even when Ben and Locke walked into Ben's former home, to be greeted by Sun and Frank, there was a board game out on the table in there. They keep hinting at the idea of it all being a big game. And remember before they said 'Australia is the key to everything' - and Christian was in Australia too.

[gingergrant]

I don't know the answer, BUT the game theme came up yet again this episode. Even when Ben and Locke walked into Ben's former home, to be greeted by Sun and Frank, there was a board game out on the table in there. They keep hinting at the idea of it all being a big game. And remember before they said 'Australia is the key to everything' - and Christian was in Australia too.

ties in with the www.Lostisagame.com theory

[notsolost42]

I think that the "he changed the rules" might refer to killing a fellow Other. Widmore had Alex killed...just a thought. There really has never been any insider violence. Just some snarky game playing between Widmore and Ben but no actual violence on the island.

[notsolost42]

I don't know the answer, BUT the game theme came up yet again this episode. Even when Ben and Locke walked into Ben's former home, to be greeted by Sun and Frank, there was a board game out on the table in there. They keep hinting at the idea of it all being a big game. And remember before they said 'Australia is the key to everything' - and Christian was in Australia too.

Yeah, was it Risk again? I thought it was but I'm not 100% sure.

[gingergrant]

I think that it was the same game that Hurley and Sawyer were playing earlier when they got interrupted.

[notsolost42]

I think that it was the same game that Hurley and Sawyer were playing earlier when they got interrupted.

Ojay, that was Risk. The game of world domination! How's everything Ginger? You guys are ALL back now? ALL of you? Things went well I hope!!!!!

[gingergrant]

Ojay, that was Risk. The game of world domination! How's everything Ginger? You guys are ALL back now? ALL of you? Things went well I hope!!!!!

hey Notso! Yeah we are ALL back, yay! I'll be putting up some photos of Liza when I can get DH to help me get them off his little travel computer.
Thanks!

[notsolost42]

hey Notso! Yeah we are ALL back, yay! I'll be putting up some photos of Liza when I can get DH to help me get them off his little travel computer.
Thanks!

MAJOR {{{{HUGS}}}} TO YOU ALL!!!! How wonderful!!!!! Congratulations!!!!! Yippeee!!!!! You must be sooooo relieved it's behind you now and you are all home!!!!! I can't wait to see her!!!!

[gingergrant]

MAJOR {{{{HUGS}}}} TO YOU ALL!!!! How wonderful!!!!! Congratulations!!!!! Yippeee!!!!! You must be sooooo relieved it's behind you now and you are all home!!!!! I can't wait to see her!!!!
LOL! Notso, wow, that's a lot of !!!!!'s :eek: (but I feel the same way:)

[notsolost42]

LOL! Notso, wow, that's a lot of !!!!!'s :eek: (but I feel the same way:)

I get excited. :o It's such a happy event.

[gingergrant]

she's a sweetie, and is fitting right in. She still doesn't really have any idea about what's going on though.... give it time. She is getting spoiled already by all of the other kids.

[notsolost42]

she's a sweetie, and is fitting right in. She still doesn't really have any idea about what's going on though.... give it time. She is getting spoiled already by all of the other kids.

I am sure she has no idea, she's so young. The baby of the bunch is always the most spoiled. It comes with the territory. I'm so happy for you. Though I really don't know you very well, I've read about all the trials and tribulations you've gone through to get to this day. What you and your husband have done is remarkable. You are all very special people.

[LissaMarie]

Here's another thought concerning Juliette.

If Ben's banishment of Widmore was due to making babies with a non-islander, wouldn't Juliette have been taboo for Ben? He loved her and thought of her as "his" so that would mean Juliette must have been a native, Ben had a rebellious heart or that wasn't the infraction that led to Widmore's banishment.

[krakup]

Here's another thought concerning Juliette.

If Ben's banishment of Widmore was due to making babies with a non-islander, wouldn't Juliette have been taboo for Ben? He loved her and thought of her as "his" so that would mean Juliette must have been a native, Ben had a rebellious heart or that wasn't the infraction that led to Widmore's banishment.

we saw richard and ethan recruit juliette but i agree ben wanted her, why did he get so jealous , is she annie.

[LissaMarie]

we saw richard and ethan recruit juliette but i agree ben wanted her, why did he get so jealous , is she annie.

That's exactly my point, Krak, thanks! The natural assumption is that Juliette was born off island, which would make her taboo to Ben if Widmore's banishment was because he had "relations" with an off-islander.

I have heard a lot of speculation about Juliette possibly being an "ancient" like Richard, so I included that as another possible scenario.

Just trying to solidify a theory on why they banished Widmore.:)

[krakup]

That's exactly my point, Krak, thanks! The natural assumption is that Juliette was born off island, which would make her taboo to Ben if Widmore's banishment was because he had "relations" with an off-islander.

I have heard a lot of speculation about Juliette possibly being an "ancient" like Richard, so I included that as another possible scenario.

Just trying to solidify a theory on why they banished Widmore.:)

i'd say bastard ben had him evicted after the alex situation. we know he is the master manipulator and had richard onside

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

wow, you guys really do stay up late!
probably old subject by now, but about Juliet.... Ben was also not born there, so I don't think it had to do with where one was born, but rather that it should be someone who is NOW there. (btw, Juliet didn't know what she turned down, man; I woulda JUMPED into Ben's arms! Ahhh...):)
But all that speculation about Juliet's past...sure, I've always thought it, and now that statue really resembles her too.

[R.I.P.Charlie]

where is there a statue of juliette, locke?

[moody]

What I don't understand is how it could be a like a crime to the Island if you would make a child with a "non Islander".
Penny seems to be a wonderful woman. What can the Island have against her to be born form Charles and a "non Islander"? The result of this action is beautiful and she seems to be a loving person....?

What kind of rule is it that that it is prohibited to have children with "non Islander"?

:)Idont think penny is a good person at all.She kept questioning desmond about findig faradays mother.she also said she wouldnt go with him to Island then changes her mind n wants go.Plus she has atrackin station,not for finding desmond though but to find the Island.At the end of series 2 the 2 men who phoned her said theyd found it not him.I think penney wants what she thinks belongs to her the Island.I think she will do ANYTHING to find it sorry dont trust her,ive watched lost since the 1st episode.Just look how she came into desmonds life where there was a photo of eloise hawkin,and thers laods of raesons why i dont trust her[eloise].

[moody]

Sorry about sum spelling just checked afer i sent it

[iggyjeckel]

What if the "rule" was Locke was suppose to turn the wheel not Ben and die to that changed evetthing. Christian already told Locke he was supposed to and to get things right he had to get them back. Ben broke the rule by coming back and this was judged for the rule broken but he changed them by taking lockes job and turning the donkey wheel

[tpbaxter]

wow, you guys really do stay up late!
probably old subject by now, but about Juliet.... Ben was also not born there, so I don't think it had to do with where one was born, but rather that it should be someone who is NOW there. (btw, Juliet didn't know what she turned down, man; I woulda JUMPED into Ben's arms! Ahhh...):)
But all that speculation about Juliet's past...sure, I've always thought it, and now that statue really resembles her too.

I'm not really following this conversation but I think young Ben told Richard Alpert that he was born on the Island, which was a lie.

It seems that we have been given false information by both Mr. Linus and Mr. Widmore. Widmore said that Linus tricked him off the Island and I believe he also implied that he turned the wheel? Neither of those things appears to be true at this point.

As far as Juliet, I'm guessing one can become an Other? Locke seems to be an Other now. Maybe there is some sort if initiation process. Sleeping with Benjamin Linus or being killed by Benjamin Linus appears to be part of their hazing ritual.

um... as far as rules go, I get the feeling that any rules are just pretense from two squabbling children. Either of them will break the rules when it suits them to do so.

By the way, I don't think Benjamin Linus "loved" Juliet. I think she was more of a material possession that he wanted for himself. something like that...

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

where is there a statue of juliette, locke?

Charleee, I meant that huge 4 Toed statue we have only seen from behind before it was blown up or crumbled or whatever happened to it... It was just an observation - I said out loud when we first saw it, "Wow, that looks like Juliet!"

I'm not really following this conversation but I think young Ben told Richard Alpert that he was born on the Island, which was a lie.

It seems that we have been given false information by both Mr. Linus and Mr. Widmore. Widmore said that Linus tricked him off the Island and I believe he also implied that he turned the wheel? Neither of those things appears to be true at this point.

As far as Juliet, I'm guessing one can become an Other? Locke seems to be an Other now. Maybe there is some sort if initiation process. Sleeping with Benjamin Linus or being killed by Benjamin Linus appears to be part of their hazing ritual.

um... as far as rules go, I get the feeling that any rules are just pretense from two squabbling children. Either of them will break the rules when it suits them to do so.

By the way, I don't think Benjamin Linus "loved" Juliet. I think she was more of a material possession that he wanted for himself. something like that...

Baxie, yes, both Ben and Widmore have told untruths as you stated above.

But I was under the impression the Others could recruit at will, no? like Juliet or even bringing Roger there to get Ben there. And what about Others like Tom? I never got the impression he was anything ancient or special. Just a recruit to help carry things out. Where did Karl come from?
And I'm guessing you were just trying to be funny, but no one had to sleep with Ben to become an Other. Sheesh, Baxie....
I do think both Ben and Widmore are capable of breaking rules and it would appear that both feel they are above scrutiny.
Ben love Juliet? Well, he was enamored by the fact that she "looks just like" someone yet unnamed...