My problem with Losties changing things...

[Waitin4Godot]

So.. here's my problem with the idea of the Losties (or anyone) changing something that leads to the events we've seen 'not happening':

Imagine what the last shots would be if they were to make this change and the plane didn't crash... we could see everyone filing off the plane after a normal/uneventful landing.

Kate in handcuffs... off to jail.

Locke being (probably) the last one off since he'd need help... not being able to walk and all.

Sawyer... sans Juilette.... off to do some new con.

Jack... to go get his dad.. probably never talking to Kate.....

In other words, this would kind of be like a dream. Everyone would 'revert' back to who/what they were before.

Just strikes me as... uhm... well... on one hand interesting, but makes it all pretty much pointless to have watched.

[MagicoA]

So.. here's my problem with the idea of the Losties (or anyone) changing something that leads to the events we've seen 'not happening':

Imagine what the last shots would be if they were to make this change and the plane didn't crash... we could see everyone filing off the plane after a normal/uneventful landing.

Kate in handcuffs... off to jail.

Locke being (probably) the last one off since he'd need help... not being able to walk and all.

Sawyer... sans Juilette.... off to do some new con.

Jack... to go get his dad.. probably never talking to Kate.....

In other words, this would kind of be like a dream. Everyone would 'revert' back to who/what they were before.

Just strikes me as... uhm... well... on one hand interesting, but makes it all pretty much pointless to have watched.
yeah i feel ya but i feel if they did that ending then somthing else woulda changed like the purge, or the plane crashs and they all die rather then land on the island i think this "third party" will spice things up and twist this

[chester]

Not pointless at all. Still the same cause and effect of a normal story. Just with time-travel. They wouldn't have been able to 'not crash' if they didn't go through all the things we've seen them going through. What's wrong with that? And this way we get to watch characters who have free will. I think it would be pointless to have a show about fate-controlled puppets.

[XmasDVD]

If they keep the plane from crashing...

* Charlie would be alive
* Ecko would be alive
* Anna Lucia would be alive
* Boone would be alive
* Michael would be alive
* Shannon would be alive

* Desmond would still be waiting for a replacement and never marry Penny
* Aaron would be with Claire

[New Age Messiah]

I think it would be pointless to have a show about fate-controlled puppets.I think it would be about a higher power orchestrating different instruments, with each of the instruments believing they are the cause of the music, acting on their "free will". But they are being played by (drum roll please) God (the Island).

The easiest way I know to make the point I'm trying to make, is that people say "I" went to the bathroom, but really all of that happened beyond their control. They HAD to go to the bathroom.
.

[notsolost42]

If they keep the plane from crashing...

* Charlie would be alive
* Ecko would be alive
* Anna Lucia would be alive
* Boone would be alive
* Michael would be alive
* Shannon would be alive

* Desmond would still be waiting for a replacement and never marry Penny
* Aaron would be with Claire

And...
Kate would be in jail
Jack would bury Christian
Locke would still be paralyzed and continue to lead his miserable life
Nike and Paulo would be alive
Arnst would be alive
Daniel. Alex and Karl would be alive
Mikhail would be alive, et al Others
But.....
Ben would die from his spinal tumor

Hmmmm, I think I'm glad they crashed afterall!

[Unbridled Pageantry]

And...
Kate would be in jail
Jack would bury Christian
Locke would still be paralyzed and continue to lead his miserable life
Nike and Paulo would be alive
Arnst would be alive
Daniel. Alex and Karl would be alive
Mikhail would be alive, et al Others
But.....
Ben would die from his spinal tumor

Hmmmm, I think I'm glad they crashed afterall!

Would anybody be alive on the island???
If they actually do blow the Hbomb (which I doubt will happen) wouldn't everyone on the island be killed??
Unless they sought refuge on the Hydland, somewhat like your old MIKE bomb thread notso.

[chester]

I think it would be about a higher power orchestrating different instruments, with each of the instruments believing they are the cause of the music, acting on their "free will". But they are being played by (drum roll please) God (the Island).

The easiest way I know to make the point I'm trying to make, is that people say "I" went to the bathroom, but really all of that happened beyond their control. They HAD to go to the bathroom.
.

Well, yeah, 'going to the bathroom' is pretty much an involuntary action. We can't consciously make ourselves not digest foods and process liquids.

[rich101682]

If they keep the plane from crashing...

* Charlie would be alive
* Ecko would be alive
* Anna Lucia would be alive
* Boone would be alive
* Michael would be alive
* Shannon would be alive

* Desmond would still be waiting for a replacement and never marry Penny
* Aaron would be with Claire

Desmond would never be there to wait for a replacement because there would be no button to push.

[notsolost42]

Would anybody be alive on the island???
If they actually do blow the Hbomb (which I doubt will happen) wouldn't everyone on the island be killed??
Unless they sought refuge on the Hydland, somewhat like your old MIKE bomb thread notso.

I suggest that the electromagnetic energy beneath the Swan may be strong enough to "inhale" the energy from the explosion of the H-bomb. Just a thought that could possible account for it. Kind of like the old underground experiments they did in the USA in the 50's or 60's. The explosions were "contained" underground.

[Unbridled Pageantry]

I suggest that the electromagnetic energy beneath the Swan may be strong enough to "inhale" the energy from the explosion of the H-bomb. Just a thought that could possible account for it. Kind of like the old underground experiments they did in the USA in the 50's or 60's. The explosions were "contained" underground.

awwww, so the bomb would kind of implode like the Swan did, and be sucked into nothingness.

[notsolost42]

awwww, so the bomb would kind of implode like the Swan did, and be sucked into nothingness.

Yup. And the radiation is what both causes and cures cancer, pregnancy issues, etc. I will do a little reading later about the underground tests that were performed in the US later tonight and see if I come up with anything different. I don't know what about the energy from an h-bomb explosion would really be attracted by electromagnetism but it deserves a look see. I think that the EM is just plain so incredibly strong that it acts like a black hole in a way, just sucking it all in!

[New Age Messiah]

Well, yeah, 'going to the bathroom' is pretty much an involuntary action. We can't consciously make ourselves not digest foods and process liquids.Still, we take credit for it, assign authorship to ourselves. I took a dump. :eek:

Philosophical deep question, being pondered within Lost story line... Are we the authors of anything?

Since the process of thinking was CERTAINLY not authored by us, can we take credit for doing it?

It occurs within a realm (our mind) we THINK we control, but do we? Are those thoughts the result of GAZILLIONS AND BABILLIONS of interchanges throughout our lives and other lives and all time and and and...

Is "our" reaction/action "our's" or is "it" all one omniscient thing living through us, i.e. God, the Universe, Spirit, Nature?

[Waitin4Godot]

Not pointless at all. Still the same cause and effect of a normal story. Just with time-travel. They wouldn't have been able to 'not crash' if they didn't go through all the things we've seen them going through. What's wrong with that? And this way we get to watch characters who have free will. I think it would be pointless to have a show about fate-controlled puppets.

You miss my point... if things change so they don't crash -- then NOTHING we've see from the crash on happened. It would basically be like a dream.

They would never have done anything we saw them do... because they never crashed to have to do something to not crash. All the things they've gone through.. never would have happened. Nothing. Not one bit of it.

I suppose it would be a sort of cool ending to just see them all get off the plane safe and sound... but well, I just find it really... unsatisfying.

[chester]

You miss my point... if things change so they don't crash -- then NOTHING we've see from the crash on happened. It would basically be like a dream.

They would never have done anything we saw them do... because they never crashed to have to do something to not crash. All the things they've gone through.. never would have happened. Nothing. Not one bit of it.

But they did do all that. We saw it. It just got changed by time-travelers so it didn't happen anymore.

[Jeremy]

I think this might be a theme for the next few episodes, or at least it seems Kate might bring it up to Jack. Stopping horrible things from happening versus erasing so much of how far they have come since coming to the island. They can either sacrifice their own for the good of everyone else on the island, or they can try a different approach. At least as far as they know. I believe that whatever they do is what has always happened.

[Waitin4Godot]

But they did do all that. We saw it. It just got changed by time-travelers so it didn't happen anymore.

This is really the whole point about a paradox. Everything we saw, quite literally, could not and did not happen. Sort of the definition of the future is changed. Let's say they (in their present in the 70's) do change sometthing... Jughead does go off like Daniel planned and, therefore, the whole button pushing thing never starts... and so no plane crash, right?

That would mean the Oceanic flight never crashed... so NOTHING we saw happened.

Jack wouldn't know Kate.. or anyone else. He'd get off the plane and bury his dad.. end of story. He wouldn't "remember" anything or "know" anything because it literally didn't happen. The future is literally changed... by people who now were never in a position to change it.

Look at another example... let's that the end of the last episode is tweaked a little bit.. Daniel gets shot, but Jack... in an unexpected rage at Daniel (his hope to get back to a normal life lost) shoots Daniel's killer. He has no idea who she is.. but he kills her -- BOOM headshot.

If they can change things... then they can kill her... and that would mean Daniel is never born. But.. Jack just saw Daniel die.. which is why he killed her.

What would happen to Daniel's body? The body of a man never born....?

There's no way Jack (or anyone) could remember Daniel because he was never born.

The same will be true in countless ways if, somehow, they stop the plane from crashing. Anything anyone knows as a result of the plane crash couldn't be known. Rose... will still be deathly ill and likely die. Charlie would be alive and addicted to heroin... Locke a frustrated man in a wheelchair... Kate in jail... Sawyer conning people... and all the rest.

[chester]

This is really the whole point about a paradox. Everything we saw, quite literally, could not and did not happen. Sort of the definition of the future is changed. Let's say they (in their present in the 70's) do change sometthing... Jughead does go off like Daniel planned and, therefore, the whole button pushing thing never starts... and so no plane crash, right?
That would mean the Oceanic flight never crashed... so NOTHING we saw happened.

But it did happen. It is all what led to the past being changed.

Jack wouldn't know Kate.. or anyone else. He'd get off the plane and bury his dad.. end of story. He wouldn't "remember" anything or "know" anything because it literally didn't happen. The future is literally changed... by people who now were never in a position to change it.

But they were in the position to do it. We saw it.

Look at another example... let's that the end of the last episode is tweaked a little bit.. Daniel gets shot, but Jack... in an unexpected rage at Daniel (his hope to get back to a normal life lost) shoots Daniel's killer. He has no idea who she is.. but he kills her -- BOOM headshot.

If they can change things... then they can kill her... and that would mean Daniel is never born. But.. Jack just saw Daniel die.. which is why he killed her.

What would happen to Daniel's body? The body of a man never born....?

Applying the 'Rant' hypothesis to this scenario would make Daniel an immortal. He would be someone "with no beginning, and therefore no end. Put simply...a god"

The same will be true in countless ways if, somehow, they stop the plane from crashing. Anything anyone knows as a result of the plane crash couldn't be known. Rose... will still be deathly ill and likely die. Charlie would be alive and addicted to heroin... Locke a frustrated man in a wheelchair... Kate in jail... Sawyer conning people... and all the rest.

So. Life goes on. And maybe they'll be able to travel back in time and improve things for themselves. If time travel is possible and people have free will, then lots of different things could happen.

[PJlost]

Well, if all this happens and they are able to change the future and not crash, how will they get to a different time period without having two of the same person in the same place? For example, they are able to leave the island before the bomb goes off and are saved...what time period do they travel to and would there be the chance they would see themselves? Also, when Faraday left, couldn't he have gone and found himself and told himself everything that had happened????? He would have been a boy the age we saw in this last episode.

[smthng2dowthlost]

You miss my point... if things change so they don't crash -- then NOTHING we've see from the crash on happened. It would basically be like a dream.

They would never have done anything we saw them do... because they never crashed to have to do something to not crash. All the things they've gone through.. never would have happened. Nothing. Not one bit of it.

I suppose it would be a sort of cool ending to just see them all get off the plane safe and sound... but well, I just find it really... unsatisfying.

I would too. All the details we paid extra attention all the phrasing of sentances we disected I would feel shorted. I get the point of it did happen that's how it got changed but this story is so detail oriented. And time travel is weird we have no idea the kinds of ramification that could come from changing anything, anything could happen people could die early never have been born to get on the flight in the first place it's not like you can change something and then all of a sudden the plane lands in LA they would be huge changes in every aspect of everyone's life that is related to the island in any small way.

[smthng2dowthlost]

Well, if all this happens and they are able to change the future and not crash, how will they get to a different time period without having two of the same person in the same place? For example, they are able to leave the island before the bomb goes off and are saved...what time period do they travel to and would there be the chance they would see themselves? Also, when Faraday left, couldn't he have gone and found himself and told himself everything that had happened????? He would have been a boy the age we saw in this last episode.

If anything changes they would not be there in the first place to have changed things the whole thing changes. Faraday detenating the bomb would cancel out the electromagnetic energy which means no button no desmond not pushing the button no crash no oceanic six no 316 no time travel back no detenating the bomb to cancel out the electromagnetic and it causes a whole huge problem which I think the consequence would be like back to the future they would disapear. thats why I think they can't not without des. WHH

[vonnie]

I will be very let down if things are changed so that the plane just lands and none of it ever happened. All the mysteries, the connections between the losties, all of it, would seem like there was nothing to it and the plane just accidently crashed on an island. Since there is another season, I don't think that the incident can be avoided and everybody just go home.