EM explosion vs. H-bomb explosion

[navyguy]

Daniel is a crackpot. What went through his head? Let me guess

"hmmm.....swan station+drilling=kaboom, h-bomb=kaboom. I GOT IT! ILL PREVENT ONE EXPLOSION BUT CREATING ANOTHER EXPLOSION! EUREKA!"

[notsolost42]

Daniel was most certainly NOT a crackpot as you say. If the h-bomb is detonated in the Swan's EM field, I would gather that the EM will cause the h-bomb to implode rather than explode. The USA did many underground nuclear tests from the 1940's through the 1990's. If you take a look at some of those videos and imagine the energy is not released outward but inward you might get where Dan was going. He is trying to destroy the exotic matter, no doubt, but will fail. The h-bomb will not destroy it as an h-bomb releases its own magnetic radiation energy on detonation. Well, that's my thought anyway. Dan is not a crackpot.

[3d-aholic]

I would gather that the EM will cause the h-bomb to implode rather than explode.

That makes no sense. An H-bomb explodes due to a chain reaction...the reason is explosive not implosive.

Yes, a H-bomb releases a large amt of Electromagnetic radiation. It is said that if an H-bomb ever goes off, all electronic devices and computers will stop working as a result. The miltary have made special H-Bombs that are considered tactical in which thats all they do.

I assume Dan thinks the one EMP pulse will "cancel" out the other. If that is true, than the Islands pulse has to be some sort of "anti-matter" pulse since the H-Bomb will me matter based. I can't see any other way except if there is something like a "computer/electrical" device generating the pulse that can be destroyed by another EMP.

Its probably a crashed UFO down there.

[Panda]

Daniel was most certainly NOT a crackpot as you say. If the h-bomb is detonated in the Swan's EM field, I would gather that the EM will cause the h-bomb to implode rather than explode. The USA did many underground nuclear tests from the 1940's through the 1990's. If you take a look at some of those videos and imagine the energy is not released outward but inward you might get where Dan was going. He is trying to destroy the exotic matter, no doubt, but will fail. The h-bomb will not destroy it as an h-bomb releases its own magnetic radiation energy on detonation. Well, that's my thought anyway. Dan is not a crackpot.

But this could mean that this is what happened back in 77?
That they tried to stop it using the H bomb but failed?

[notsolost42]

That makes no sense. An H-bomb explodes due to a chain reaction...the reason is explosive not implosive.

Yes, a H-bomb releases a large amt of Electromagnetic radiation. It is said that if an H-bomb ever goes off, all electronic devices and computers will stop working as a result. The miltary have made special H-Bombs that are considered tactical in which thats all they do.

I assume Dan thinks the one EMP pulse will "cancel" out the other. If that is true, than the Islands pulse has to be some sort of "anti-matter" pulse since the H-Bomb will me matter based. I can't see any other way except if there is something like a "computer/electrical" device generating the pulse that can be destroyed by another EMP.

Its probably a crashed UFO down there.

Yes, an h-bomb is explosive. But we are talking about it being detonated in an atmosphere of extreme electromagnetism and I am hypothesizing that it energy released by the detonation will cause an implosion rather than an explosion based on the EM that surrounds it. I am not saying that they will cancel out each other. If the islands pulse is antimatter and it comes in contact with matter from the h-bomb, well then, ah....no more show! Do you know that a mere teaspoon of antimatter can destroy a city? This was mentioned by the astrophysicist Michael Kaku in a recent interview.

[Panda]

But there is some other question I have.
Daniel is saying something like, that if he can prevent the incident, that there will be no need for the someone pushing a button in the swan.
But as we see after the Hatch imploded....nobody is pushing any button anymore.
And the Island still exists, and live seems to go on out there, and off Island nothing happens really different either.
So to me it seems that pushing that button did nothing at all.
They could have turned that fail safe key or whatever it was called much more early....if they wanted to prevent 815 from crashing.

[Panda]

Do you know that a mere teaspoon of antimatter can destroy a city? This was mentioned by the astrophysicist Michael Kaku in a recent interview.

No I had no Idea about antimatter and how many teaspoons you need to destroy a city.
But it seems that there are not enough tea spoons of antimatter on the Island to destroy the Island itself.

[notsolost42]

But there is some other question I have.
Daniel is saying something like, that if he can prevent the incident, that there will be no need for the someone pushing a button in the swan.
But as we see after the Hatch imploded....nobody is pushing any button anymore.
And the Island still exists, and live seems to go on out there, and off Island nothing happens really different either.
So to me it seems that pushing that button did nothing at all.
They could have turned that fail safe key or whatever it was called much more early....if they wanted to prevent 815 from crashing.

I don't think so. I think that destroying the Swan caused the islands time difference to change. I think that it is the same as the real world time after the Swan was destroyed and that is why everything seems to be aging rapidly on the island. I have posted about this before and now it has been brought up that Miles' hair is getting grey real fast, as well as somone elses. Sawyer is suddenly using glasses to drive. Nearsightedness can be caused by age, etc. So, the Swan and pushing the button kept the island on its own path of time. The island seems to be catching up to itself now.

[Panda]

I don't think so. I think that destroying the Swan caused the islands time difference to change. I think that it is the same as the real world time after the Swan was destroyed and that is why everything seems to be aging rapidly on the island. I have posted about this before and now it has been brought up that Miles' hair is getting grey real fast, as well as somone elses. Sawyer is suddenly using glasses to drive. Nearsightedness can be caused by age, etc. So, the Swan and pushing the button kept the island on its own path of time. The island seems to be catching up to itself now.

In what way would that harm people off Island, if the Island is on a different path of time?

[notsolost42]

In what way would that harm people off Island, if the Island is on a different path of time?

I didn't say it would harm people off island but the people on the island seem to be aging a bit faster than you would in just three years. Especially since they are so young to begin with. Maybe I should clarify it that the time passing on the island is now the same as time passing in the real world and that is not what is supposed to be happening on the island.

[Panda]

I didn't say it would harm people off island but the people on the island seem to be aging a bit faster than you would in just three years. Especially since they are so young to begin with. Maybe I should clarify it that the time passing on the island is now the same as time passing in the real world and that is not what is supposed to be happening on the island.


I know you didn't say that.
I was just wondering what harm it could do to people off Island.
Why are Eloise and Widmore whom ar both of Island, manipulating so much to get certain people on that Island and to catch some to get them off that Island?
Why are they doing all this, if whatever happens on that Island has no real influence on the world off Island?

[Waitin4Godot]

Yes, an h-bomb is explosive. But we are talking about it being detonated in an atmosphere of extreme electromagnetism and I am hypothesizing that it energy released by the detonation will cause an implosion rather than an explosion based on the EM that surrounds it.

I suppose one could also theorize that if an H-bomb were to explode in an extreme EM field, it's really how unicorns are born.... but I digress.

I think Daniel's plan is a lot simplier... by detonating the H-bomb one thing will definitely happen: The H-bomb would pretty much ensure the Swan is never built. The site would be a radioactive crater... so Desmond would never push the button.. there'd be no Swan complex... and no plane crash.

While I know the Swan had cement like Chernobyl... there'd still be the crater and all the around around the Swan would be radioactive, not just the "small" area of the Swan.

[delfrio]

Do you know that a mere teaspoon of antimatter can destroy a city? This was mentioned by the astrophysicist Michael Kaku in a recent interview.

Did you also know that it would cost $250 trillion dollars to produce a teaspoon of antimatter?

[notsolost42]

Did you also know that it would cost $250 trillion dollars to produce a teaspoon of antimatter?

Yes, that was the price tag for CERN or something, and did you know the final NASA mission is to send something up there to try and find some???? Ha! What are they going to do if they find it????

[vonnie]

I know you didn't say that.
I was just wondering what harm it could do to people off Island.
Why are Eloise and Widmore whom ar both of Island, manipulating so much to get certain people on that Island and to catch some to get them off that Island?
Why are they doing all this, if whatever happens on that Island has no real influence on the world off Island?
I'm in agreement with Notso's changing time theory, Ihad the same question about what the big deal with the button was if nothing much changed when it wasn't being pushed anymore. But the time theory makes sense. I do think though that it has to have larger implications off island, or maybe I just hope that. Ellie and Widmore could just be trying to save the island but I would like to think the show and all that has happened is for a bigger purpose, like eventually the island and the rest of the world would start time jumping or something.

[LostinUlsan]

I'm thinking maybe the fail safe that destroyed the hatch was the H-bomb. When it went off it does exactly what Daniel thought it might, which is cancel out the exotic matter and end the need to push the button.

But now that Daniel is dead... who knows what will happen if the bomb goes off. There's only a notebook which I'm sure nobody left truely understands.

So Daniels plan is going to become the last resort as opposed to pushing the button.

[MagicoA]

I'm thinking maybe the fail safe that destroyed the hatch was the H-bomb. When it went off it does exactly what Daniel thought it might, which is cancel out the exotic matter and end the need to push the button.

But now that Daniel is dead... who knows what will happen if the bomb goes off. There's only a notebook which I'm sure nobody left truely understands.

So Daniels plan is going to become the last resort as opposed to pushing the button.
yeah i think that too because when some1 else here mentioned an implosion i thought back to that ep where it imploads and assumed maybe the h-bomb is already there so i guess thats where they buried the H-bomb,in the swan site haha

[notsolost42]

I'm thinking maybe the fail safe that destroyed the hatch was the H-bomb. When it went off it does exactly what Daniel thought it might, which is cancel out the exotic matter and end the need to push the button.

But now that Daniel is dead... who knows what will happen if the bomb goes off. There's only a notebook which I'm sure nobody left truely understands.

So Daniels plan is going to become the last resort as opposed to pushing the button.

Jughead could not possibly have caused what happened to the Swan. The Swan imploded. It did not explode. That's the first thing. Second, the exotic matter has not been destroyed at all. What is currectly happening is that it is out of control now and because there is no button to push to release the EM build up there will be another big incident when it is exposed. Not to mention that it has caused a time shift on the island itself. Instead of the island moving in spacetime the way it always had, it is now moving at the same rate as the real world. This is way people are aging and the island is aging. It is basically catching up to itself in time.

[NappyP]

Jughead could not possibly have caused what happened to the Swan. The Swan imploded. It did not explode. That's the first thing. Second, the exotic matter has not been destroyed at all. What is currectly happening is that it is out of control now and because there is no button to push to release the EM build up there will be another big incident when it is exposed. Not to mention that it has caused a time shift on the island itself. Instead of the island moving in spacetime the way it always had, it is now moving at the same rate as the real world. This is way people are aging and the island is aging. It is basically catching up to itself in time.

Wouldn't an H bomb vaporize all the matter around it?
all the matter that makes up the dirt, the swan, and whatever is around the EM field, would all be vaporized. All thats left, An EM field naturally occurring on the island (supposedly anti mater) and an EM pulse from the bomb. On the off chance that these EMs are on the same wavelength, they could cancel each other out.

The fail safe was the bomb. If you have a future physicist who has a notebook full of real equations that have not be discovered yet and knowledge of current situation, i would listen to his plan. DO you really wanna blow up the special island? no, so it becomes a back up plan or the fail safe. the 108 min is a controlled vent of the EM.

[notsolost42]

Wouldn't an H bomb vaporize all the matter around it?
all the matter that makes up the dirt, the swan, and whatever is around the EM field, would all be vaporized. All thats left, An EM field naturally occurring on the island (supposedly anti mater) and an EM pulse from the bomb. On the off chance that these EMs are on the same wavelength, they could cancel each other out.

The fail safe was the bomb. If you have a future physicist who has a notebook full of real equations that have not be discovered yet and knowledge of current situation, i would listen to his plan. DO you really wanna blow up the special island? no, so it becomes a back up plan or the fail safe. the 108 min is a controlled vent of the EM.

Ohhhh, where should I start? Let's begin with the negativly charged exotic matter. This is not, as you state, anti-matter. If it were, anything it touched would be vaporized, the island and everything. The exotic matter, in my opinion, is a black body. Possibly a singularity. A black body emits EM when it is hot. Why do you think it is in an ice cave? The wheel acts as a mechanism to open whatever the exotic matter is contained in like an apiture and exposes it to the heat, thus releasing the EM. What happens to the person that turns the wheel is much like what happened to Desmond when he turned the fail safe key. The computer releases the smalll build up of EM in a controled manner. When a black body overheats and releases these large amounts of EM it is called an Ultraviolet Catastrophe. This is real science. That was what everyone on the island called the Purple Sky Event. When Desmond used the failsafe key, he did not detonate the h-bomb, he released the EM build up that was in a greater quantity and much more dangerous than when the computer releases it. That is why the Swan imploded. It was sudden and it was a great deal of EM. The sky lit up purple. The Swan did not explode. It was all sucked into itself, attracted my the magnetism, into a little, useless, crumbled mass of metal. Desmond was temporally displaced causing him to time travel when this occured. It's the same thing that happened to George Minkowski and the woman on the freighter. But Des is special and he did not suffer the side effects as they did.

We will see the Jughead still in tact in the coming episodes. Bet on it. Perhaps at that point some idiot will set off Jughead. In fact, you can bet on that as well. That is why the Swan basement is encased in cement. Just like Chernobyl, as Sayid noted. It is radioactive hot. It is contained. The EM from the Swan area was there long before the failsafe key was ever turned as we plainly saw in The Variable and was described by Dan as 30,000 times more powerful than that at the Orchid. I don't understand why you said what you did and hope that this helps explain it to you a little better.

[wiley]

The relationship between science and the show is a loose reference at best.
For example magnetic force is not cumulative nor is the magnetic force created by an electromagnetic field however an electrical charge can be. So there would never be a reason to "release" a build-up of EM. You might need to release an electrical charge, kinda like a capacitor. But it's the release of the charge that would create the EM not the charging. The slow build-up of a electrical charge would create a very small EM field. But the release of that charge all at once would create a much larger field. The button to systemically release EM does not make sense, it's a plot tool not science.

[notsolost42]

The relationship between science and the show is a loose reference at best.
For example magnetic force is not cumulative nor is the magnetic force created by an electromagnetic field however an electrical charge can be. So there would never be a reason to "release" a build-up of EM. You might need to release an electrical charge, kinda like a capacitor. But it's the release of the charge that would create the EM not the charging. The slow build-up of a electrical charge would create a very small EM field. But the release of that charge all at once would create a much larger field. The button to systemically release EM does not make sense, it's a plot tool not science.

This is directly from Wiki about Black Bodies. I've only copied a small part of it that explains what I mean. I believe that the exotic matter is a black body:

n physics, a black body is an idealized object that absorbs all electromagnetic radiation that falls on it. No electromagnetic radiation passes through it and none is reflected. Because no light (visible electromagnetic radiation) is reflected or transmitted, the object appears black when it is cold. However, a black body emits a temperature-dependent spectrum of light. This thermal radiation from a black body is termed black-body radiation.[1]

At room temperature, black bodies emit mostly infrared light, but as the temperature increases past a few hundred degrees Celsius, black bodies start to emit visible wavelengths, from red, through orange, yellow, and white before ending up at blue, beyond which the emission includes increasing amounts of ultraviolet. (as in purple sky event or in physics, an ultraviolet catastrophy)

Blackbody radiation is light in thermal equilibrium, light radiation with a given temperature. It is the basic thermodynamic state of light. Because light is the oscillation of a continuous electromagnetic field, the study of blackbody radiation reveals how continuous fields can have a temperature, something which contradicts classical physics. Because the thermal state of light was so confusing before the advent of quantum mechanics, the 19th century arguments that light has a thermal equilibrium state were made very carefully.

So, light is an electromagnetic wavelength to begin with. When a black body heats it releases electromagnetic radiation. The computer released this EM in controled amlounts. When the buttons were not pressed the EM built up and imploded causing the purple sky event.

[NappyP]

Notso. i think were thinking the same thing. with a few details off.

i do believe still that jug head is still part of the failsafe system. it would explain how the hatch itself is blown onto the beech.

[notsolost42]

Notso. i think were thinking the same thing. with a few details off.

i do believe still that jug head is still part of the failsafe system. it would explain how the hatch itself is blown onto the beech.

Oh, okay. If you are basically saying what I am saying that didn't come across. By the way, I think the hatch door went flying due to the energy and pressure created inside the hatch as it was being squeezed into something smaller and smaller and more compact. Kinda like squeezing a plastic bottle or toothpaste tube and the top pops off.

[NappyP]

Oh, okay. If you are basically saying what I am saying that didn't come across. By the way, I think the hatch door went flying due to the energy and pressure created inside the hatch as it was being squeezed into something smaller and smaller and more compact. Kinda like squeezing a plastic bottle or toothpaste tube and the top pops off.

lets clarify.
The hatch is imploded by the ultraviolet explosion. how does the UV explosion happen? does Desmond cause it by turning the failsafe. ie, he opens the cork on the EM field allowing the event to take place that the 108 min button was preventing.

ill buy the hatch door being blown out.

how does Chernobyl cementing in the area help the whole situation?
I only see it as the casing around Jughead, for now. it would be following Dans advice and common logic to encase a nuke. espicailly a damaged nuke that cannot reach fusions or fission.


---

rambling thoughts...

Jughead cannot go nuclear due to the damage it has in it casing, but that does not mean i cant go boom. Therefore we have no nuke go off when the failsafe is turned, but a large explosion counteracting the UV event and throwing Desmond through time and the hatch to the beech.

[notsolost42]

lets clarify.
The hatch is imploded by the ultraviolet explosion. how does the UV explosion happen? does Desmond cause it by turning the failsafe. ie, he opens the cork on the EM field allowing the event to take place that the 108 min button was preventing.

ill buy the hatch door being blown out.

how does Chernobyl cementing in the area help the whole situation?
I only see it as the casing around Jughead, for now. it would be following Dans advice and common logic to encase a nuke. espicailly a damaged nuke that cannot reach fusions or fission.




rambling thoughts...

Jughead cannot go nuclear due to the damage it has in it casing, but that does not mean i cant go boom. Therefore we have no nuke go off when the failsafe is turned, but a large explosion counteracting the UV event and throwing Desmond through time and the hatch to the beech.

No, your first statement was what I am thinking. The failsafe key released the buildup of EM just as entering the numbers does, but it was a much larger amount of it. That is what causes the ultraviolet light catastrophy. The purple sky event.

When Dan suggested that Jughead be buried he was talking to Richard Alpert and the Others, not the DI. I didn't see any bags of cement laying around by the Others's tents, so I don't think they did that. I think we will see Jughead in the upcoming episodes and we will see it in the possession of the Others. I think it will be used in the incident or is what caused the incident. I think after the hotspot cools, it will be sealed in concrete and the Swan will be built. The Jughead will not have destroyed the exotic matter at all. So, the computer will be needed to release the buildup of the EM as we have seen.

[NappyP]

No, your first statement was what I am thinking. The failsafe key released the buildup of EM just as entering the numbers does, but it was a much larger amount of it. That is what causes the ultraviolet light catastrophy. The purple sky event.

When Dan suggested that Jughead be buried he was talking to Richard Alpert and the Others, not the DI. I didn't see any bags of cement laying around by the Others's tents, so I don't think they did that. I think we will see Jughead in the upcoming episodes and we will see it in the possession of the Others. I think it will be used in the incident or is what caused the incident. I think after the hotspot cools, it will be sealed in concrete and the Swan will be built. The Jughead will not have destroyed the exotic matter at all. So, the computer will be needed to release the buildup of the EM as we have seen.


where is Jughead then?

also look at your UV incident explanation. Having Jughead part of that equation doesn't change at all what your saying. It adds one more layer to the UV incident. ... i dunno what im trying to say... this..

IF Jughead isn't the failsafe, where is it? its got to be around somewhere.

[notsolost42]

where is Jughead then?

also look at your UV incident explanation. Having Jughead part of that equation doesn't change at all what your saying. It adds one more layer to the UV incident. ... i dunno what im trying to say... this..

IF Jughead isn't the failsafe, where is it? its got to be around somewhere.

I think I may know but this isn't a spoiler thread so I'm not even gonna guess.

[NappyP]

EDIT: double post.

[NappyP]

I think I may know but this isn't a spoiler thread so I'm not even gonna guess.

haha, nice. i do enjoy going unspoiled. anyway. i enjoyed our semi debate.

now iv got to think up a whole other Jughead theory.

---
do you think the blackness of the EM thingy could be come sentient? et, theres smokie? seems like you have more behind that theory than iv seen you say.