Free Will (FW) and WHH can coexist

[islander]

I am trying to understand what context people here are addressing the topic of free will. I keep reading posts where people think the Losties have no free will (FW) in a WHH world, and I don't understand why people think that is the case.

Even if WHH holds throughout the show, the way I see it, all the characters have exercised their FW. Even when Charlie learned his destiny was to die, he had the FW to choose how. All of us are going to die, the decisions we make between now and then are hopefully exercises of FW.

As a result of WHH, we think we know how some events on the show are going to occur, but that doesn't constrain FW because so far the events that have occurred on the show have been a result of characters who are free to make decisions. Even if those decisions were mistakes, they were free to make them.

So even if Jack and Company believe Dan's theory about the variable and attempt to exercise their FW to change what they currently know to be their future, their success or failure (their destiny) will be based on the decisions they were free to make.

I think whether or not they are successful in changing their destiny is a separate debate than whether or not they have FW. To quote Ben, "...Destiny is a fickle bitch."

Any comments would be appreciated because I'm trying to understand if there's a consenus view of FW that is different than how I'm looking at it.

[notsolost42]

Well, since I just started a thread called TCC, Time Can Change, I have to say that you are right because you are essentially echoing what I just said. The variables are people who have not been on the island in 1977 before, yet it is their present. That is to say, the losties. I believe that I explained it as the butterfly effect, in that it is the ripples that extend out from the event that can be different. If Jack detonates Jughead, which he will, and it is not Dan, because he is dead, then Jack will have his own method for doing this. He will speak to different people and accomplish this same deed differently. The event may still remain the same, but what happens because of it will be different. I used the example of the man with the red shoes. If he had been killed a different way, as Mrs. H. had said, even though it was his fatacomplete, it would have had different effects on everything around it. If he had been hit by a car and died, it would have effected the driver of the car, the family of the driver, right down to the auto mechanic who would fix his car. See what I mean?
So yes Islander, I agree with what you are saying because I just said basically the same thing. But, you did say one thing I do not agree with. Charlie did not keep putting off his own death. Desmond kept putting Charlie's death off and he did so until it benefited him. And Charlie died when Penny made contact.

[islander]

But, you did say one thing I do not agree with. Charlie did not keep putting off his own death. Desmond kept putting Charlie's death off and he did so until it benefited him. And Charlie died when Penny made contact.

That's interesting...I see Charlie deciding (FW) to volunteer for a suicide mission but you are also correct that Des helped keep Charlie alive long enough so that he could make that decision. That's subtle but important. I see it as Charlie's destiny was to die, but if his destiny includes HOW he dies, his destiny was changed by Des.

[notsolost42]

That's interesting...I see Charlie deciding (FW) to volunteer for a suicide mission but you are also correct that Des helped keep Charlie alive long enough so that he could make that decision. That's subtle but important. I see it as Charlie's destiny was to die, but if his destiny includes HOW he dies, his destiny was changed by Des.

I think Mrs. H. explained it well with the man in the red shoes. She said it didn't matter if he was crushed under the building collapse, hit by a car or fell in the bathtub. He was going to die. And he did. The observation I am making is that each death has different ripple effects. Depending on how he dies, the ripples will touch different sets of people and change their circumstances. That is the butterfly effect. The real one associated with the Chaos Theory, not the movie. Think of skipping stones in a pond. If you throw a stone to the left, the ripples will swell on the left side. If you throw it to the right, then they are on the right side. If there is a poor little baby bird that fell in the water on the left, the ripples could very well drown it. If you throw the stone to the right, it will not do anything. The fatacomplete, the destiny of it as many call it, is that you were going to throw the stone. You chose where to throw it.

[Nemesis Prime]

I pretty much agree with what both of you have said as well. I try thinking of it from the Lostie's perspective. Even thought they are in the past everything is happening to them for the first time. Their reactions to these events are all of their own free will, or at least to them it is. Even though the final outcome of what they are doing may be pre-determined they are exercising what they see as free will to bring them to that point.

Almost like if it wasn't for them using their free will than whatever happened wouldn't have happened.

[notsolost42]

I pretty much agree with what both of you have said as well. I try thinking of it from the Lostie's perspective. Even thought they are in the past everything is happening to them for the first time. Their reactions to these events are all of their own free will, or at least to them it is. Even though the final outcome of what they are doing may be pre-determined they are exercising what they see as free will to bring them to that point.

Almost like if it wasn't for them using their free will than whatever happened wouldn't have happened.

Honestly, it is everyone's present, the losties, the DI, the Others. It's just that the losties are where they should not be. They have warped spacetime by being there. They are there and somewhere else at the same time. The DI and Others are only there in the single spacetime. Well, I can't speak for Richard! :D

[Nemesis Prime]

They have warped spacetime by being there. They are there and somewhere else at the same time.

I think we can just agree to disagree on that point, lol. As for this topic I think we are on the same boat though.

[Waitin4Godot]

Even if WHH holds throughout the show, the way I see it, all the characters have exercised their FW. Even when Charlie learned his destiny was to die, he had the FW to choose how. All of us are going to die, the decisions we make between now and then are hopefully exercises of FW.

I disagree.. and let me try to explain it this way using Charlie and his death as an example. Let's take Charlie to be an live person, not just a character on the show. To Charlie each and everything thing he does from struggling to give up herion to what he says... are all his choices. He's using his free will each and every day to decide who to follow, what to do... and then, after much pondering, when/where to die. From Charlie's point of view, these are all true, honest, free will choices he's making, right?

But... not a single one of them are choices. Everything Charlie does he does... because he simply has to do it. It's in the script - if you'll forgive the use of the word. Everything from Desmond seeing flashes of Charlie dying... are just a means for Charlie to end up dying in the Looking Glass. Desmond and Charlie didn't change anything. Desmond had "visions" of death, but that was just to set them both up to do what happened in the Looking Glass. Charlie couldn't have done it alone, he needed help... so Desmond needed a reason to be there.

Think about how the show would so very, very different if Charlie wasn't the one to volunteer for the Looking Glass mission. Who would have gone? Assuming the death still happened... who would be dead?

Honestly, it is everyone's present, the losties, the DI, the Others. It's just that the losties are where they should not be.

No, everyone is where they should be. Daniel shows this. He had to be back in the past to get shot by Hawking. This puts Hawking on the path to raise Daniel how she did.. so she could one day shoot him.

Kate needed to be in the past to take Ben to the Others to be healed.. just as Sayid needed to be there to shoot him.

Each person has a role they are playing -- some have what we call 'big' events to do factor into.. and others are smaller (at least so far).

[beachblinkette]

Thought this quote from Doc Jensen's recap of the The Variable applies here;

'Faraday's change of mind about changing time was rooted in the almost religious certainty that his fellow time traveler's innate FREE WILL (my caps) was more powerful than mathematics and physics. They were free radicals; they were variables; they were human monkey wrenches in the mechanics of reality.'

[tpbaxter]

I've restated my position on this a few times in a few different threads, but I'll say it again because I feel strongly.

1. Daniel Faraday was FULL OF IT. He was either WRONG or LYING. I believe it was the latter. His words did not match his actions. Even though he was SAYING that he wanted to change the future, everything he DID seemed to be trying to create it. He told Jack that Eloise lied, which motivates Jack to do something, he told Chang to evacuate the area, and he told Charlotte what he swore he would not tell her. He did everything in his power to recreate WHH, despite the fact that he was armed with specific knowledge about the future, which leads me to my next point.

2. The people of Lost have free will, but they do not have enough KNOWLEDGE about the future to change anything. If you don't know the past then you are destined to repeat it. Or in Lost, if you don't know the future then you are destined to create it. The "Variable" is not what Faraday said it was. The Variable is environment or circumstance or stimuli (as chester noted). This matches what we know about the Valenzetti equation and the Numbers. The Numbers represented environmental factors that lead to the end of the world. You see, the characters we know are who they are. It is possible in theory that if you knew everything about me, you will know what I will say next. Based on my personality and life experiences etc. my behavior can be predicted. The only thing that will stop me from doing what Destiny says I must do is by giving me specific KNOWLEDGE about the future OR changing my environment/circumstances/stimuli in some way. The people of Lost are not changing at this point, the environment is what it is, and since the Losties do not have enough knowledge, so the future as it was foretold to us in previous seasons MUST happen. There is nothing in this equation that can cause anyone to change it. At least not yet.

Last point is that since Faraday seemed to have specific knowledge about the future, yet he did things that cause the future to occur, leads me to believe that he did so on purpose. Nothing made him say what he said to Charlotte. He choose to do it and I believe he choose to do it because he wanted WH to H.

[tpbaxter]

I should say that the characters of Lost MAY have free will.

There is an alternate theory that everything these people are doing has been written out by some higher authority and they are just pawns acting out their roles. This is their "Destiny".

And I think the whole point of this show is that we are not supposed to be able to clearly say which is which. Is it Science and Reason or is it Faith and Destiny?

[Deep Thinker]

I think that one distinction I keep trying to make in my own mind is the idea of FW vs the illusion of FW. If the characters on the show have to act a certain way in order for the the future to happen the way it does, then how can they truly have free will. If they do something different than they are supposed to then the future will change, which would change everything (even the past, since they wouldn't go back in time).

My thoughts are that the losties may not have true free will, but only the illusion of free will. They think that they are making choices that will change the future, but in doing so they end up making the choice that created the future. The best analogy I can think of for the illusion of free will is by using Sawyer (or Ben). When he wanted to con (or manipulate) someone, he made sure that they thought things were their idea. The person he conned thought that they were making their own decisions, but he really manipulated them into thinking that. Perhaps destiny is manipulating the losties to think that they are exerting free will, but in reality they already have predetermined roles. I'm not sure that can go hand in hand. I can't see how WHH can coexist with FW...it can only coexist will the illusion of FW.

[notsolost42]

Thought this quote from Doc Jensen's recap of the The Variable applies here;

'Faraday's change of mind about changing time was rooted in the almost religious certainty that his fellow time traveler's innate FREE WILL (my caps) was more powerful than mathematics and physics. They were free radicals; they were variables; they were human monkey wrenches in the mechanics of reality.'

Exactly what I have been posting for the past 24 hours. Even if someone was going to die, a fact certain, the way it happens will have different effects. I have been using the example of the man with the red shoes that Mrs. H. pointed out to Des. He died under the collapse of a building. She said he was destined to die and if it didn't happen that way it would have happened another. She said he would be hit by a car or fall in the tub. Well, each of these ways of him dying would have very different ramifications on everything around it. The ripples that would extend out are different with each example. It would effect different people in different ways. Yes, the man with the red shoes would still die, but the nature of his death is a variable as well. Same with Charlie. I have said all along that Desmond was saving his life to only use it for his own purposes. And he did. He knew Penny was looking for him...

[ortrules]

Same with Charlie. I have said all along that Desmond was saving his life to only use it for his own purposes. And he did. He knew Penny was looking for him...

I don't agree with this. If Desmond was only looking out for himself, why didn't he let Charlie get hit in the throat with the arrow? During that vision, Desmond saw Charlie die and Penny come to the island. So why did Desmond save Charlie that time?

Second, I don't think his vision of Charlie dying in the Looking Glass station involved Penny - at least, not as far as we were told. Desmond seeing Penny appear on the screen was certainly a surprise to him.

[ortrules]

I've restated my position on this a few times in a few different threads, but I'll say it again because I feel strongly.

I agree with everything you said bax. It seemed to me that for someone who wanted to change things (Dan) he did an awful lot to ensure WHH. If he really wanted to make change, he could have simply avoided talking to Charlotte. He could have avoided talking to Chang. But most of all, he could have avoided coming back to the island in the first place. Any one of these simple things could have changed the past.

[Pung]

Exactly what I have been posting for the past 24 hours. Even if someone was going to die, a fact certain, the way it happens will have different effects. I have been using the example of the man with the red shoes that Mrs. H. pointed out to Des. He died under the collapse of a building. She said he was destined to die and if it didn't happen that way it would have happened another. She said he would be hit by a car or fall in the tub. Well, each of these ways of him dying would have very different ramifications on everything around it. The ripples that would extend out are different with each example. It would effect different people in different ways. Yes, the man with the red shoes would still die, but the nature of his death is a variable as well. Same with Charlie. I have said all along that Desmond was saving his life to only use it for his own purposes. And he did. He knew Penny was looking for him...

I guess you didnt feel like responding to my rebutle in your TCC thread, so let's try again in this one.

____________________________________________

While Des and Hawking are talking the man with the red shoes meets his demise. Eloise explains that if she warned him, then he would die a different way tomorrow, and so on. If eloise had warned him, then this is not changing time.

Eloise knew that the mans destiny was to die. she chose not to warn him, with her own free will BTW, and he died. If she did decide to warn him, and then the next day he gets hit by a car, then he dies the next day. Either way, if you were to travel back in time to witness the event then how ever it happened is the way that it happened. What ever choice Eloise made, is the choice any time traveler would see.

The same goes for Charlies death. Desmond was having visions of Charlies death. Visions. Desmond made decisions based on those visions. What ultimately happened in the looking glass was directly caused by Desmonds decisions. His free will. Charlie only died once. and whether you traveled back in time to see it or not, he would have died in exactly the same way.

[tpbaxter]

I agree with everything you said bax. It seemed to me that for someone who wanted to change things (Dan) he did an awful lot to ensure WHH. If he really wanted to make change, he could have simply avoided talking to Charlotte. He could have avoided talking to Chang. But most of all, he could have avoided coming back to the island in the first place. Any one of these simple things could have changed the past.

Another thing that I saw when I re-watched this episode was Faraday's dialogue to Miles after he spoke with Chang. Miles asked Faraday what he thought he was doing and Faraday said he was just making sure Chang did what he was supposed to do. Miles said what's that and Faraday said, 'You'll see'.

That whole thing sounded like he wanted WH to H, but there was the strange conversation with Charlotte where he made it sound like he was just telling her this in case he failed and then the big rant to Jack about the variables, so I don't know. Either way, he certainly didn't change anything and his actions helped WHH.

[tpbaxter]

I guess you didnt feel like responding to my rebutle in your TCC thread, so let's try again in this one.

____________________________________________

While Des and Hawking are talking the man with the red shoes meets his demise. Eloise explains that if she warned him, then he would die a different way tomorrow, and so on. If eloise had warned him, then this is not changing time.

Eloise knew that the mans destiny was to die. she chose not to warn him, with her own free will BTW, and he died. If she did decide to warn him, and then the next day he gets hit by a car, then he dies the next day. Either way, if you were to travel back in time to witness the event then how ever it happened is the way that it happened. What ever choice Eloise made, is the choice any time traveler would see.

The same goes for Charlies death. Desmond was having visions of Charlies death. Visions. Desmond made decisions based on those visions. What ultimately happened in the looking glass was directly caused by Desmonds decisions. His free will. Charlie only died once. and whether you traveled back in time to see it or not, he would have died in exactly the same way.

This is why I hate Eloise and Desmond. That whole scene about the man with the red shoes makes no sense to me and I am not sure what the scientific explanations for all that are. If Eloise knows the future because of Faraday's book, then how does she know about the man in the red shoes? Was she applying Faraday's formula or something? And how come Eloise was able to jump back in time with Desmond? Does she have special time jumping powers too? How did she get these powers?

It might be a stretch, but I still think Desmond's visions about the future where manifestations of the smoke monster. The same way Eko's brother Yemi were. His power doesn't seem to be knowing the future, it was jumping around in time, specifically jumping back into the past. That jives with the rest of the show because it makes you wonder if Charlie had to die or if he chose to die (or someone or something else manipulated him into choosing to die).

[ortrules]

Another thing that I saw when I re-watched this episode was Faraday's dialogue to Miles after he spoke with Chang. Miles asked Faraday what he thought he was doing and Faraday said he was just making sure Chang did what he was supposed to do. Miles said what's that and Faraday said, 'You'll see'.

That whole thing sounded like he wanted WH to H, but there was the strange conversation with Charlotte where he made it sound like he was just telling her this in case he failed and then the big rant to Jack about the variables, so I don't know. Either way, he certainly didn't change anything and his actions helped WHH.

The whole thing was like a giant experiment for Dan. While in Ann Arbor he realized that people with free-will could potentially be a variable. So he comes back to the island and decides to test his hypothesis.

One of the things that jumped out to me in this episode is that Dan was testing the effects of time travel on himself, mostly because he's afraid of putting someone in the same predicament he put Teresa in. So now that he's trying to learn about the potential variables, he decides he's going to test this on himself again. Before he sets out to try and make changes to the timeline, he wants to make sure that WHH is still in place. That way, if his variable test fails, at least he doesn't cause an even larger problem.

It seems obvious, to me at least, that his attempt to change the past/future failed miserably. But again, at least he didn't cause a larger problem by screwing with things too much.

[bunnydixon]

it just makes me think of the whole Oedipus issue. You can try to change the future yet in doing so inadvertently cause the very thing you wanted to avoid happening. this has probably been mentioned before somewhere along the way.

so whilst there is an element of free will involved, WHH lol!!

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

I love the reference to the script above. Everything that happens (real life or 1970's LOST island) is essentially scripted. But as we watch it unfold, we get to see how the decisions came about. As we live our lives or watch LOST with no knowledge of the future, we experience what seems like "free will." That doesn't mean that the events are not scripted and can and will only happen one particular way. It just means that as we are watching the events unfold, we see a wider array of *possibilities* than what actually exists - all merely because we do not know what the future holds. In this sense, free will exists, but it is ultimately an illusion...as everything is scripted.

[islander]

I love the reference to the script above. Everything that happens (real life or 1970's LOST island) is essentially scripted. But as we watch it unfold, we get to see how the decisions came about. As we live our lives or watch LOST with no knowledge of the future, we experience what seems like "free will." That doesn't mean that the events are not scripted and can and will only happen one particular way. It just means that as we are watching the events unfold, we see a wider array of *possibilities* than what actually exists - all merely because we do not know what the future holds. In this sense, free will exists, but it is ultimately an illusion...as everything is scripted.

Ok..so who writes/wrote the scrip?

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

Ok..so who writes/wrote the scrip?

In the case of LOST, well, the writers. :D

In the case of the real life, God.

For those who do not believe in God. I guess you would say each component of the script is determined by the preceding component. It is essentially "being written" as we go, but in a determined fashion.

[Pung]

Ok..so who writes/wrote the scrip?

I think people have been fighting about that for at least a few thousand years now. :p

[islander]

In the case of LOST, well, the writers. :D

In the case of the real life, God.

For those who do not believe in God. I guess you would say each component of the script is determined by the preceding component. It is essentially "being written" as we go, but in a determined fashion.


Oh no, you're not saying God is a WHHer, are you? :eek:

[islander]

I think people have been fighting about that for at least a few thousand years now. :p

Sad but true.

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

Oh no, you're not saying God is a WHHer, are you? :eek:

God most certainly is a WHHer. God doesn't make mistakes that would require a redo.

[bunnydixon]

God most certainly is a WHHer. God doesn't make mistakes that would require a redo.

i beg to differ...but thats a whole other thread for a whole other site lol :p

[tpbaxter]

Oh no, you're not saying God is a WHHer, are you? :eek:

yes. and science could also be a WHH. that's the whole point.

In the case of LOST, well, the writers. :D

In the case of the real life, God.

For those who do not believe in God. I guess you would say each component of the script is determined by the preceding component. It is essentially "being written" as we go, but in a determined fashion.

so i've been trying to explain a scientific or logical explanation that does not involve God. That theory being the people of Lost simply do not have enough KNOWLEDGE about the future to make any changes. Sayid would not have shot Benjamin Linus if he had known it would just create the monster he was trying to kill. Without knowledge he was at a disadvantage to take on destiny and so his actions were predictable.

this is the essence of the show IMO. Man of science or man of faith?

[islander]

I'm not qualififed to debate whether God exists and whether he/she has scripted peoples' lives. Personally, if I were God how much fun would there be in already knowing how things turn out? None, but that's soley my opinion.

However, it does seem to me the Losties and all the characters on the show have been free to make their own choices. Granted there's a fair degree of manipilation happening, and there have been some examples of imprisonment and gun point diplomacy, but whether we are seeing a flashback or events that occurred in the past, those events are the result of freely made choices.

[islander]

God most certainly is a WHHer. God doesn't make mistakes that would require a redo.

We see things differently on that point. I can't speak for God :D, but I've learned more from my mistakes than I've learned when everything went perfectly.

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

We see things differently on that point. I can't speak for God :D, but I've learned more from my mistakes than I've learned when everything went perfectly.

That's why we make them and why God allows for us to make them. It's also why God doesn't make mistakes, IMHO, as there is nothing for Him to learn.

[New Age Messiah]

The marriage of science and spirit: dynamic systems theory and the development of spirituality.

http://arrow.unisa.edu.au:8081/1959.8/46899 This is a link to a paper written that might really be informative, but I don't know how to access the paper.

Creator Cupit, Glenn
Date 2007
Publisher Routledge
Subject dynamic systems theory
Subject spiritual development
Subject agency
Subject phase transition