Who didn't 'push the button' to make Ajira crash?

[chester]

If it was Desmond not pushing the Swan button in '04 that 'opened a window' and caused the O815 flight to crash on the island; where was the button, and who didn't press it, to make the A316 flight crash? Was it an event that happened in '74 or or '07? If there was such an event, I would guess it was in '07, since that's when the plane is supposed to be in, right? Or has the window been jarred open since the Swan implosion?

[MagicoA]

If it was Desmond not pushing the Swan button in '04 that 'opened a window' and caused the O815 flight to crash on the island; where was the button, and who didn't press it, to make the A316 flight crash? Was it an event that happened in '74 or or '07? If there was such an event, I would guess it was in '07, since that's when the plane is supposed to be in, right? Or has the window been jarred open since the Swan implosion?
ima go with that last one

[Nemesis Prime]

That is a really good question. Since the swan is gone in 07 I guess it's safe to say that the plane didn't crash because of that. Maybe because it blew up some of the residual effects were still around enough to screw with the airplanes equipment? Other than that I can't really think of reason for it to crash.

[wiley]

If it was Desmond not pushing the Swan button in '04 that 'opened a window' and caused the O815 flight to crash on the island; where was the button, and who didn't press it, to make the A316 flight crash? Was it an event that happened in '74 or or '07? If there was such an event, I would guess it was in '07, since that's when the plane is supposed to be in, right? Or has the window been jarred open since the Swan implosion?

The plane didn't really crash. It just got pulled into the magical mystery island's sphere of influence. It had to happen that way because there were not enough blank pages left in the script for anything more believable.

[Nemesis Prime]

The plane didn't really crash. It just got pulled into the magical mystery island's sphere of influence. It had to happen that way because there were not enough blank pages left in the script for anything more believable.

Lol, that probably has some truth to it.

[chester]

The plane didn't really crash. It just got pulled into the magical mystery island's sphere of influence. It had to happen that way because there were not enough blank pages left in the script for anything more believable.

Yes, Ajira did not break apart like Oceanic. Does that mean O815 would just not break apart, if anyone manages to stop the 'incident' and it's chain of events that leads to Desmond not pushing the button, but would still be 'pulled into the islands influence'?

[wiley]

Yes, Ajira did not break apart like Oceanic. Does that mean O815 would just not break apart, if anyone manages to stop the 'incident' and it's chain of events that leads to Desmond not pushing the button, but would still be 'pulled into the islands influence'?

Good point. I see what your saying, so if someone does change something maybe 815 doesn't crash the same way but still manages to end up on the island.
Is that your point?

[LissaMarie]

Didn't Mrs. Hawking describe it as "a window is open"? It kind of sounded to me like the Ajira flight simply flew through that open window. I suppose the next logical question is, if our O6 weren't on the flight, would flight 316 still have ended up on the island? Did their presence on that flight have something to do with it ending up on the island? Sorry...instead of answering any questions I just added a few more!

[chester]

Good point. I see what your saying, so if someone does change something maybe 815 doesn't crash the same way but still manages to end up on the island.
Is that your point?

That is a point I am curious about, yes.

[Nemesis Prime]

If something did get changed in the past who is to say that the island would even be in the correct global position for 815 to fly over it in the first place.

[chester]

Didn't Mrs. Hawking describe it as "a window is open"? It kind of sounded to me like the Ajira flight simply flew through that open window.

So the turning of the fail safe resulted in a window being left open? Which Ajira flew into when the Island was spatially moved into its flightpath?

I suppose the next logical question is, if our O6 weren't on the flight, would flight 316 still have ended up on the island? Did their presence on that flight have something to do with it ending up on the island? Sorry...instead of answering any questions I just added a few more!

I don't know. We haven't been told much about the properties of this window thing, have we?

[LostandAlone]

Didn't Mrs. Hawking describe it as "a window is open"? It kind of sounded to me like the Ajira flight simply flew through that open window. I suppose the next logical question is, if our O6 weren't on the flight, would flight 316 still have ended up on the island? Did their presence on that flight have something to do with it ending up on the island? Sorry...instead of answering any questions I just added a few more!
Ben had to consult with Eloise in order to determine WHEN they could get back. She did tell them they had a certain amount of time before the "window" of opportunity closed. Also, there's that thing about "recreating" 815....Jack had to get his father's shoes for Locke - so they could get to the island. So Chester, at first I said, OK - who didn't push the button? but in 07 there was no button-pushin' goin' on. So it seems it was some other mystical set of circumstances that Eloise had "calculated". Remember in the last episode, Daniel said he had to go to his mother because she was "the only one who could get them back to where they belonged"? That was in 1977 - Apparently Mrs Hawking has had some special knowledge for a very long time...so like you said Lisa- more questions than answers!

[chester]

Hey L&A. Yes, the 'didn't push the button' thing was more metaphorical in the A316 case.

It was just that Daniel was going on in the last ep about how it was Des not pushing the Swan button, that caused O815 to crash on the island. Which made me curious as to what similar event was the cause for the A316 crash-landing, since, as you say, there shouldn't be any Swan button on the island any more, not to push.

[LostandAlone]

(I still can't see a face in your coffee beans Ches! that drives me crazy! - not really - I'm still looking!)

[chester]

(I still can't see a face in your coffee beans Ches! that drives me crazy! - not really - I'm still looking!)

(Lol, right down the bottom, about seven beans in.)

[LostandAlone]

(Lol, right down the bottom, about seven beans in.)
I see it now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks, Chester!:)

[krakup]

(Lol, right down the bottom, about seven beans in.)

ahh thank you

[Jeremy]

I think 815 didn't have to go through a window because it just happened to fly over exactly where the island was. Because Desmond didn't push the button in time, the amount of EM was able to build up enough so that it could mess everything up on the plane. However, the Swan has since imploded, thus ridding the island of the problem of the electromagnetic energy, and wouldn't have anything to do with 316. I think 316 crashed because something messed with it when going through the wormhole, or "window".

[Greg Lafluer]

I think that when the airja flight went the time hole..in 1977 the D.I. was doing drilling around the area where the hatch will be. and realeased energ somehow caused the plane to crash and yet suck some of the o6...
just how when desmond didnt oush the button it released energy which cause oceanic to get sucked into the island.....

[friendly1013]

I think 815 didn't have to go through a window because it just happened to fly over exactly where the island was. Because Desmond didn't push the button in time, the amount of EM was able to build up enough so that it could mess everything up on the plane. However, the Swan has since imploded, thus ridding the island of the problem of the electromagnetic energy, and wouldn't have anything to do with 316. I think 316 crashed because something messed with it when going through the wormhole, or "window".

There was a flash that the non-time travellers experienced when the arrived at the island, and that is when the plane started to nosedive. It is also important to notice that it was night time and after the flash it was broad daylight. No one ever mentions this. Then plane was transported in time also when it entered the "window" and was probably transported in space. My theory is that perhaps, after the flash, the plane flashed into a position in which it was pointed the wrong way (downward) which is why they were headed straight for a mountain, and had to be pulled up to avoid hitting the ground.

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

Perhaps the same mechanism that returns the time traveling Losties to 2007 also causes the plane to malfunction.

[Jeremy]

I don't think the plane is necessarily moved in time(and they are apparently still in 2007). It's just that the window could be on one side of the earth, and the island itself could be on the other.

[InTheBeginning]

So...Des doesn't push the button, and the island becomes 'visible' and the EM causes 815 to crash. Do we all agree?

Now for 316, there isn't a button to be not pushed and the plane is able to land intact in the present time. However, a 'window' also opens to allow some of our Losties to pop up in 1977. Agreed?

So then, according to the LampPost's calculations, when the island itself 'opens'/become visible, it is in the present and there is also a portal to a different time? Or did they not know that the 1977 window would be open. Please explain.

[TXAgg]

I'm trying to figure this out...

So it's possible that Desmond didn't push the button, which opened up a non-naturally occurring window that sucked in 815.

Also, Ajira got sucked in because the Lampost was able to calculate when a naturally occurring window would be open and the Ajira flight just had to fly into it.

If it works this way then why did the O6 have to "recreate, as best you can" the conditions of 815. If they had to recreate 815 then it would seem that there is something more going on than just returning to the island

[bunnydixon]

i think that it's similar to the whole dome/freighter/jin/chopper issue.

when they were within this dome surrounding the island, the losties flahsed with the island. this flash caused the plane to do something (what, im not quite sure yet as not only does it move from night to day, frank clearly loses control and has to crash land). i dont think it's directly the same as the button although in saying that, when the button wasn't pushed, the sky turned purple. when they flashed in time, the same thing was happening. so perhaps these flashes are periodic bursts of EM energy being released but not as strong as before? perhaps the energies at the swan and the orchid are similar yet with different side effects if you like?

[LissaMarie]

So the turning of the fail safe resulted in a window being left open? Which Ajira flew into when the Island was spatially moved into its flightpath?

I'm not sure what caused the window to be open. Either Mrs. Hawkings explained it was Ben turning the wheel or I just assumed it was. I can't remember! Time to check the transcripts...

Edit: I'm a boob for assuming! It appears that the island is always moving and windows open when it does? (see transcript below)I don't know. We haven't been told much about the properties of this window thing, have we?

Here's a transcript:

ELOISE: [Sighs] All right. I apologize if this is confusing, but... [To Jack, who is still staring at the photo] Let's pay attention, yes? The room we're standing in was constructed years ago over a unique pocket of electromagnetic energy. That energy connects to similar pockets all over the world. The people who built this room, however, were only interested in one.

SUN: The Island.

ELOISE: Yes. The island. They'd gathered proof that it existed. They knew it was out there somewhere, but they just couldn't find it. Then a very clever fellow built this pendulum on the theoretical notion that they should stop looking for where the island was supposed to be and start looking for where it was going to be.

[Pendulum whooshes]

JACK: What do you mean, "Where it was going to be"?

ELOISE: Well, this fellow presumed, and correctly, as it turned out, that the Island was always moving. Why do you think you were never rescued? Now while the movements of the Island seem random, this man and his team created a series of equations which tell us, with a high degree of probability, where it is going to be at a certain point... in time. Windows, as it were, that while open, provide a route back. Unfortunately, these windows don't stay open for very long. Yours closes... in 36 hours. [She hands the binder to Jack]
DESMOND: Um, I'm sorry. Excuse me. [Chuckles] Am I really hearing this? That's what this is about? You're all going back to the Island? Willingly?

SUN: Yes. Why are you here, Desmond?

DESMOND: [Sighs, scoffs] I came here to deliver a message. [To Eloise] Daniel Faraday--your son--sent me here. He wanted me to tell you that he and all the people on the Island need your help. He said that only you could help them. He didn't say Jack. He didn't say Sun. He didn't say Ben. He said you.

ELOISE: But I am helping, dear.

DESMOND: [Scoffs] Consider the message delivered.

ELOISE: I'm sorry to have to tell you this, Desmond, but the Island isn't done with you yet.

DESMOND: This woman cost me four years of my life--four years that I'll never get back because you told me that I was supposed to go to the Island! That it was my bloody purpose! [To Jack] You listen to me, brother, and you listen carefully. [Panting] These people--they're just usin' us. They're playing some kind of game, and we are just the pieces. [Lowers voice] Whatever she tells you to do... ignore it. [Normal voice, to Eloise]You say the Island's not done with me? Well, I'm done with the Island.

[Pendulum continues whooshing]

[Desmond leaves, slamming the door behind him.]

ELOISE: Jack... the binder in your hands shows all the air routes that fly over the coordinates where I believe the Island will be in little more than a day from now. There's a commercial airliner flying from L.A. to Guam. It's going to go right through our window. Ajira Airways, Flight 316. If you have any hope of the Island bringing you back, it must be that plane. You all need to be on it. It must be that flight. [Sighs] If you... want to return, you need to recreate as best you can the circumstances that brought you there in the first place. That means as many of the same people as you are able to bring with you.

JACK: And what if we can't get anyone else to come with us? What if we're it?

ELOISE: All I can tell you is the result would be... unpredictable.

[hpbatman7]

New poster, long time lurker and Lost fan...

I thought it had to do with Locke turning the wheel myself...I think the plane was flying overhead just as Locked turned the wheel, hence why the Losties ended back up in 1977. Why didn't Sun go...I think it's because she was not pregnant...(not sure on that, but in Lost land that's as good a theory as any)

I think that was the window that Hawking was refering to...

[LissaMarie]

New poster, long time lurker and Lost fan...

I thought it had to do with Locke turning the wheel myself...I think the plane was flying overhead just as Locked turned the wheel, hence why the Losties ended back up in 1977. Why didn't Sun go...I think it's because she was not pregnant...(not sure on that, but in Lost land that's as good a theory as any)

I think that was the window that Hawking was refering to...

Hey Batman! Welcome to the family!:D

I also thought it had to do with the wheel turning but IF we believe what Mrs. Hawking said, it seems that it was simply because the island is always moving. That leads me to believe that a window to the island opens occasionally and has nothing to do with the wheel being turned at all.

[hpbatman7]

Hey Batman! Welcome to the family!:D

I also thought it had to do with the wheel turning but IF we believe what Mrs. Hawking said, it seems that it was simply because the island is always moving. That leads me to believe that a window to the island opens occasionally and has nothing to do with the wheel being turned at all.

I thought of that too....but one thing has always bugged me...IF the island is always moving, not just in space but in time, how was DHARMA able to "lock" it in place back in the 70's?....I guess if they knew where the island was going to be in a place what Hawking says makes sense, but it's that whole jumping in time thing that had me thinking.....that and to be honest I am not sure how much we can believe anyone when they say something in lost land....

Regardless I am sure we will find out, and I am thinking by the end of this season....maybe..lol

[mysavior]

This is my first post, so bear with me. Eloise wasn't clear as to what time they were going to appear on the island. Our 'Losties' were thinking they would pick up right where they left off. Besides, there was no button to push because it hadn't been invented yet.

[Panda]

So it is clear that when 316 landed on the Island there was no button to be pushed.
In 77 the swan didn't exist yet.....and in 2007 the swan was already gone.

Who forgot to push the button when Yemi the brother of Ekko and the plane full off drugs came over the Island?
Was a natural window open? Or was it a moment where people in the Swan didn't push that button?
What about the man in the balloon Henry Gail?
Someone didn't push the button in the swan? Or a natural window again?

[InTheBeginning]

Sure...naturally occurring windows caused all previous crashes/shipwrecks, etc... These were perhaps not being tracked by Eloise at the LampPost at the time.

My biggest ?? is why did the 316ers split into two times? That has not happened before (as far as we know).:confused:

MySavior - welcome! It seems that Ilana and Ceasar had some knowledge of when/where they were going, but the remnants of our O6 did not fathom ending up in 1977.

[TXAgg]

I don't think all accidential arrivals have to do with a button not being pressed...

what about Rousseau's ship, or Desmond's boat?

If every time the button wasnt pushed someone crashed then why was there no crash the first time the counter rolled past 108, or when the hatch finally exploded you would think that half of the planes in the air would have gotten sucked in...

[Panda]

My biggest ?? is why did the 316ers split into two times? That has not happened before (as far as we know).:confused:



I remember something that Eloise said that they needed to look 316 like 815 so they all had to be on the flight.

Now 316 didn't crash it landed.

But 815 did crash on several places on the Island. So the passengers got split up in different places on the Island.

So if 316 does not split passengers on the Island on different places.....the only way to split them up is to set some in a different time.....?

Just rambling

[InTheBeginning]

So if 316 does not split passengers on the Island on different places.....the only way to split them up is to set some in a different time.....?

Just rambling

Hmmmm...Ilana is a tough female character much like Ana Lucia. So, they split up like the 815ers, just not the same times? This sure appears to be what happened.

[chester]

New poster, long time lurker and Lost fan...

I thought it had to do with Locke turning the wheel myself...I think the plane was flying overhead just as Locked turned the wheel, hence why the Losties ended back up in 1977. Why didn't Sun go...I think it's because she was not pregnant...(not sure on that, but in Lost land that's as good a theory as any)

I think that was the window that Hawking was refering to...

Hey Batman! Welcome to the family!:D

I also thought it had to do with the wheel turning but IF we believe what Mrs. Hawking said, it seems that it was simply because the island is always moving. That leads me to believe that a window to the island opens occasionally and has nothing to do with the wheel being turned at all.

I don't think it would have been from John turning the wheel, because John was on the plane at the time - dead.

[chester]

Here's a transcript:

ELOISE: Well, this fellow presumed, and correctly, as it turned out, that the Island was always moving. Why do you think you were never rescued? Now while the movements of the Island seem random, this man and his team created a series of equations which tell us, with a high degree of probability, where it is going to be at a certain point... in time. Windows, as it were, that while open, provide a route back. Unfortunately, these windows don't stay open for very long. Yours closes... in 36 hours. [She hands the binder to Jack]

Thanks for the Transcript Lissa. So, according to Elly, part of the spatial moving of the island, that happens all the time, is a window is opened for a short time, upon each move. Is that right?

Maybe the Swan and pushing the button was keeping the window closed then? So was Desmond 'sent' to the island for the specific purpose of not pushing the button, so this chain of events could then take place?

[LissaMarie]

Thanks for the Transcript Lissa. So, according to Elly, part of the spatial moving of the island, that happens all the time, is a window is opened for a short time, upon each move. Is that right?

Maybe the Swan and pushing the button was keeping the window closed then? So was Desmond 'sent' to the island for the specific purpose of not pushing the button, so this chain of events could then take place?

Well, I think that's what Mrs. Hawking was eluding to anyway. I know I'm better at asking questions rather than answering them so why break with tradition now. Can we trust her and believe what she says? I am not convinced that she is a reliable source. She seems to have a specific agenda and I'm kind of thinking she might have just been trying to convince Jack and the others to go back.

Maybe that's right. Would that mean the island wasn't moving around while the button was being pushed and the window was closed? I seem to remember one of the characters on the show saying that while the button was being pushed the island was invisible but after the Hatch imploded, it was visible again until the Looking Glass was disabled. Maybe the island is visible when the window is open?

[InTheBeginning]

Maybe that's right. Would that mean the island wasn't moving around while the button was being pushed and the window was closed? Maybe the island is visible when the window is open?

A few weeks ago...I remember discussing the FDW being a kind of 'anchor' for the island. So I think you are right on with the above. The island was stationary in time but invisible for years....time was moving forward at a normal pace for the inhabitants, just invisible to the rest of the world. That explains why the coordinates worked for the food drops, sub, helos, etc... Once Des didn't push the button and/or the FDW was whacked off it's axis.....BAM! Time jumps.

[LissaMarie]

A few weeks ago...I remember discussing the FDW being a kind of 'anchor' for the island. So I think you are right on with the above. The island was stationary in time but invisible for years....time was moving forward at a normal pace for the inhabitants, just invisible to the rest of the world. That explains why the coordinates worked for the food drops, sub, helos, etc... Once Des didn't push the button and/or the FDW was whacked off it's axis.....BAM! Time jumps.

I like the anchor analogy. Thanks Beginning!

Do you think it was stationary geographically as well?

[InTheBeginning]

I like the anchor analogy. Thanks Beginning!

Do you think it was stationary geographically as well?

Sure...that would allow the coordinates to work for the DI sub and food drops etc...

just found this:

GAULT: Stay on a heading of exactly 3-0-5. Faraday says that's the only safe way to and from the boat.

To and from the boat??? I know this was discussed elsewhere, same direction both ways, that doesn't make sense...

[LissaMarie]

Sure...that would allow the coordinates to work for the DI sub and food drops etc...

just found this:

GAULT: Stay on a heading of exactly 3-0-5. Faraday says that's the only safe way to and from the boat.

To and from the boat??? I know this was discussed elsewhere, same direction both ways, that doesn't make sense...

You are absolutely right about it not making sense that the coordinates would be the same both ways. I have read that before and thought it was a great catch but have no theories as to how that could make sense!

Just to play devil's advocate, as far as the food drops go, if someone was manning the station at the Lamp Post I suppose they could determine where a window was open and make a drop or advise the sub where to go, right?