Dan's Journal Equation Proving Time Can Change

[notsolost42]

Ahhh Dan, I'm gonna miss my little necktie wearing geek! But, the journal you left behind will be your legacy. I have been researching one of the new journal pages shown in The Variable. The page on the right side contains equations. They are extremely difficult to make out, however I have been able to read the three letters that begin the equation as RAA.

RAA stands for Reductio Ad Absurbium. This is latin (of course it is!) for reduction to absurdity. This is a process of reasoning that derives a contradiction from some set of assumptions and concludes that the set of assumptions as a whole, cannot be, is untenible, so that at least one of them in the set is rejected.

Okay, laymans terms. It is a logical argument where one assumes a claim for the sake of argument and derives an absurd or ridiculous outcome, and then concludes that the original claim must have been wrong as it led to an absurd result. In other words, the argument that WHH is fact, is completly wrong! So, Dan's journal shows that time can change. Here's a picture of the journal page.

Dan lives on!!!!!

Also, just a little side note. There is anothe light cone on the page on the left at the top. And there has been a page removed from between these two pages. Note the little piece of paper still bound to the book at the top in between them.

What I also find interesting is that the RAA takes us right to a mirror matter world also. I found this abstract and it is very interesting.

"It is demonstrated that the original reductio ad absurdum proof of the generalization of the Hohenberg-Kohn theorem for ensembles of fractionally occupied states for isolated many-electron Coulomb systems with Coulomb-type external potentials by Gross and colleagues is self-contradictory, since the to-be-refuted assumption (negation) regarding the ensemble one-electron densities and the assumption regarding the external potentials are logically incompatible to each other due to the Kato electron-nuclear cusp theorem. It is proved, however, that the Kato theorem itself provides a satisfactory proof of this theorem."

A coulomb system describes charges, positive and negative, and the force with which they repel or attract and the distance between the objects. For example, opposite charges attract. Why is this important? I believe it seems to relate to the mirror matter theory and the particle pairs of opposite polarities or charges and the spacial distance between them.

[Simon Blackrock]

nice, more proof for the mirror matter theory!

i just ffound this cool antique book you would like notso,from 1926 called "3 men discuss relativity" seeing that this is what Dan studied all his life!

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

In other words, the argument that WHH is fact, is completly wrong!

Your persistence and intelligence are exceeded only by your creativity. :D

[Epy]

Neato.

Hopefully we will get many more journal shots in the next episode.

[notsolost42]

Your persistence and intelligence are exceeded only by your creativity. :D

Hehehe! Thanks, but I didn't create it, I just looked it up! :D

[littleredman]

However, just because Dan now believes that time can change, it doesn't neccessarily make it so.

[ortrules]

However, just because Dan now believes that time can change, it doesn't neccessarily make it so.

Yea. Dan also came on and said "we can change things, I know we can" and then ended up getting shot by his mother. Fast forward a couple years and Eloise tells us that she sent her son to the island knowing what would happen to him.

Turns out, Dan didn't change anything.

Just because Dan made a note of something he believes in doesn't mean it's true. If he wrote "the Earth is flat" and then came on the show and said "the Earth is flat" - do we take that as fact simply because it's in his journal?

Dan's journal is very likely filled with all sorts of information and theories - many of which I'm sure have turned out to be wrong. Until we know anything for certain, his journal is no more credible than Widmore's hair plugs from Dead is Dead.

[notsolost42]

However, just because Dan now believes that time can change, it doesn't neccessarily make it so.

I think it's absolutly brilliant how TPTB have woven threads of real science through the fabric of this science fiction show. Its not that you have to understand the science but rather it's there as a means for them to say, 'Look, we meant this the whole time."

And littleredman, you may very well be right. I can only see the equations that are shown to me. When I looked at Dan's journal page with the spheres and lines marked Real World, Real Time, Imaginary World, Imaginary Time, I theorized a duality of worlds or multiverse. Now, the proof is mounting faster than we can count that there are two worlds, that they are mirror worlds. This is all well and good until the next equation comes along but I'm sticking with it. Everyone will believe what they choose and that's okay with me.

[notsolost42]

Yea. Dan also came on and said "we can change things, I know we can" and then ended up getting shot by his mother. Fast forward a couple years and Eloise tells us that she sent her son to the island knowing what would happen to him.

Turns out, Dan didn't change anything.

Just because Dan made a note of something he believes in doesn't mean it's true. If he wrote "the Earth is flat" and then came on the show and said "the Earth is flat" - do we take that as fact simply because it's in his journal?

Dan's journal is very likely filled with all sorts of information and theories - many of which I'm sure have turned out to be wrong. Until we know anything for certain, his journal is no more credible than Widmore's hair plugs from Dead is Dead.

You will always believe the way you want to Ort. I would never try to change your mind. But I find it kinda funny the way TPTB are disproving the WHH theory. I had to smile just a little when I understood the latest equation about disproving something by proving how absurd the initial idea of it actually is.

[ortrules]

But I find it kinda funny the way TPTB are disproving the WHH theory.

Disproving it how? Absolutely every event in the 70s lines up with WHH, including Dan wanting to change things and then getting shot and not actually changing anything.

So tell me, where are they disproving it? And where do they say that this one entry in Dan's journal is that proof?

[notsolost42]

Disproving it how? Absolutely every event in the 70s lines up with WHH, including Dan wanting to change things and then getting shot and not actually changing anything.

So tell me, where are they disproving it? And where do they say that this one entry in Dan's journal is that proof?

Ort, don't get your shorts in a bunch. I'm talking about storyline and story telling. It's ironic that at the moment of the story, when the storyline may be trying to change and a character that has been important in interpreting all the science to the audience, now turns and says the time can change and there is a notation in his journal showing the same. I thihnk its brilliant the way TPTB weave all of this together. We will see what we see when they show us Ort. But for now, this is what they are showing us.

[ortrules]

Ort, don't get your shorts in a bunch. I'm talking about storyline and story telling. It's ironic that at the moment of the story, when the storyline may be trying to change and a character that has been important in interpreting all the science to the audience, now turns and says the time can change and there is a notation in his journal showing the same. I thihnk its brilliant the way TPTB weave all of this together. We will see what we see when they show us Ort. But for now, this is what they are showing us.

My shorts are not in a bunch. It was honest question, and one that you seem keen on avoiding.

Just because Dan shows up with some outrageous claim and has something written in his diary does not make it true. Again, if he showed up saying "the world is flat" and then had "the world is flat" written in his diary, does that make it true?

Dan coming back to the island and saying we can change things is a theory, and an unproven one at that. And one the producers wanted us to consider. Dan even admitted himself that every time he calculated something it came back with the same results, you can't change the past. So now his theory is to try and introduce a variable. He sets out to test his theory. He gets shot and doesn't change anything. His theory failed. He was wrong. I don't see why Dan having something written in his journal makes it any less wrong.

[Brother Desmond]

I'm talking about storyline and story telling. It's ironic that at the moment of the story, when the storyline may be trying to change and a character that has been important in interpreting all the science to the audience, now turns and says the time can change and there is a notation in his journal showing the same. I thihnk its brilliant the way TPTB weave all of this together. We will see what we see when they show us Ort. But for now, this is what they are showing us.

A couples rants by Faraday, and a new equation in his notebook does not mean for sure the rules are changing. All that shows is that there may be a possibility time can change. It doesn't make it a fact. And at this point I think there is more evidence pointing to WHH than TCC, but like you said, we will see when they show us for sure.

[notsolost42]

My shorts are not in a bunch. It was honest question, and one that you seem keen on avoiding.

Just because Dan shows up with some outrageous claim and has something written in his diary does not make it true. Again, if he showed up saying "the world is flat" and then had "the world is flat" written in his diary, does that make it true?

Dan coming back to the island and saying we can change things is a theory, and an unproven one at that. And one the producers wanted us to consider. Dan even admitted himself that every time he calculated something it came back with the same results, you can't change the past. So now his theory is to try and introduce a variable. He sets out to test his theory. He gets shot and doesn't change anything. His theory failed. He was wrong. I don't see why Dan having something written in his journal makes it any less wrong.

Ort, I am not avoiding anything. What am I avoiding exactly? Because I believe differently than you do? Because I have all along? Reading what you have written only makes me picture a two year old stamping their foot and haveing a temper tantrum...not that I am saying that's what you are doing. I think Dan's point was that he never included an variables in his initial equations to begin with and that is why he is saying they can change. The events may be the constant, the WHH, but the people, our losties who are living their future not the past, are the variables. And that is exactly why things can and will undoubtably change.

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

Notso, I think you have some very creative theories, and they may still yet turn out to be correct. But I have to agree with Ort here that TPTB have not shown us anything that goes against WHH. If there is something that goes against WHH, it will be a major twist, and you will have been brilliant in projecting it ahead of time. Until that time, though, I'm sure you can see how others may not be as convinced.

[Missie]

Im sticking with the WHH theory. Dan getting shot is only futher evidence that by trying to change the past they create it exactly as it has always happened. Also there was a little creative foreshadowing put in the show by the writers when Little Dan siad "I can make time." and Eloise replys with "If only you could."
Side note: Im not suprised that Daniel is trying to change the past at all. After loosing two girlfriends because of time traveling experiments he is bound to feel guilty and want to change everything. He seems to think that he can make a different decision that will create a ripple effect to start changing things, but he doesnt know what his first decisions were... so how can he change them?

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

... he doesnt know what his first decisions were... so how can he change them?

This is a crucial concept. None of the characters know what their decisions were the first time this happened, so how can they be "changed" rather than just "acted out?"

[notsolost42]

Notso, I think you have some very creative theories, and they may still yet turn out to be correct. But I have to agree with Ort here that TPTB have not shown us anything that goes against WHH. If there is something that goes against WHH, it will be a major twist, and you will have been brilliant in projecting it ahead of time. Until that time, though, I'm sure you can see how others may not be as convinced.

That's true. They just introduced the idea of TCC now. They will show it soon if it is true, and I believe they showed it to us for that reason. I don't think they would introduce an idea that is so different and not do anything with it. It makes no sense. That's like them introducing Jughead in one episode and never coming back to it. It's not a matter of my being brilliant. I am not predicting anything. I am just doing what I always do. I am reading the scientific equations that are left around for clues. I read Mrs. Hawking's equations and said that she was calculating where and when the island was, thereby proving that the island moved in both space and time. But there are still many disbelievers. So, I tend to think that even when it is there, plainly in front of our faces, there will still be people that do not believe it. They will only want to see what they want to see. That, my friend, is life.

[ortrules]

Ort, I am not avoiding anything. What am I avoiding exactly? Because I believe differently than you do? Because I have all along? Reading what you have written only makes me picture a two year old stamping their foot and haveing a temper tantrum...not that I am saying that's what you are doing.

I asked a simple question:

"So tell me, where are they disproving it? And where do they say that this one entry in Dan's journal is that proof?"

Your response was that my shorts are in a bunch. I'm not throwing any tantrum, and I am not being defensive, I just want a simple answer to my question. It should be an easy question for you since you claim that TPTB are proving WHH is not true. I'd just like to know where that proof is.

Dan showing up and saying "we can change things" is not proof. Dan actually making a change is proof. However, he was shot before he changed anything or caused anything to be different, so WHH has not been disproven in that regards.

I think Dan's point was that he never included an variables in his initial equations to begin with and that is why he is saying they can change.

Dan did at least 8 years of research from 1996 to 2004. Every experiment he did came back to the same answer that you can't change the past. He then goes through a very traumatic experience with Charlotte and leaves the island. In that less than 3 year period, he finally decides that he needs to put a variable in his research and he comes back to the island to test it out. He was shot. His test failed. Theory debunked. What more is there?

[notsolost42]

I asked a simple question:

"So tell me, where are they disproving it? And where do they say that this one entry in Dan's journal is that proof?"

Your response was that my shorts are in a bunch. I'm not throwing any tantrum, and I am not being defensive, I just want a simple answer to my question. It should be an easy question for you since you claim that TPTB are proving WHH is not true. I'd just like to know where that proof is.

Dan showing up and saying "we can change things" is not proof. Dan actually making a change is proof. However, he was shot before he changed anything or caused anything to be different, so WHH has not been disproven in that regards.

Ort, perhaps Shakespear said it best, "Thou doth protest too much." All I have done and all I have said is that TPTB have shown us that TCC because they placed this equation in Dan's journal at the same time they have now had the character that explains all the science of time travel to the audience introduce the idea that TCC. I did not say anything has changed yet. I have simply stated that they have shown it can and I am betting that it will. It's kind of like Jughead. TPTB introduced Jughead to us, completly out of the blue, in one single episode. What if they did nothing further with it? It would make Jughead completly pointless and have wasted an hour of airtime. Well, same idea to me about TCC. Why go there if they are not going to do something with it? It would be a pointless waste of time. I don't think that they are in the habit of doing that.
TPTB have just introduced the idea now that TCC. We will, in my opinion, see it happen before the end of the season....or, as a result of whatever happens at the end of the season, then we will see it in 06.

Dan did at least 8 years of research from 1996 to 2004. Every experiment he did came back to the same answer that you can't change the past. He then goes through a very traumatic experience with Charlotte and leaves the island. In that less than 3 year period, he finally decides that he needs to put a variable in his research and he comes back to the island to test it out. He was shot. His test failed. Theory debunked. What more is there?

Dan did not have any reason in those eight years of experiments to include the losties as variables in his equations. I am sure as a scientist he included whatever variables he had for those particular expeiments. This is really a little different now. In my opinion.

[Missie]

Why go there if they are not going to do something with it? It would be a pointless waste of time. I don't think that they are in the habit of doing that.
TPTB have just introduced the idea now that TCC. We will, in my opinion, see it happen before the end of the season....or, as a result of whatever happens at the end of the season, then we will see it in 06.

I beleive that Jack and Kate and whoever else that wants to be involved are going to attempt to change the past. However, the story will play out just like it was suppose to giving us futhur insight to the Dharma missing pieces and island mysteries. Locke and Sun will be successfull in moving the past losties back to the present and a whole new set of problems will be set up for next season that probably will have nothing to do with time-travel. My guess is next season will be more about the shadow people.

So they will continue on this idea of TCC that they introduced but it wont be successfull.

BTW: TCC was actually introduced in Sayid's episode when Sayid tried to change the past by shooting Ben. Little did he know, that it was that action that ultimatly made Ben who he grew up to, again pointing towards WHH.

[Brother Desmond]

All I have done and all I have said is that TPTB have shown us that TCC because they placed this equation in Dan's journal at the same time they have now had the character that explains all the science of time travel to the audience introduce the idea that TCC. I did not say anything has changed yet. I have simply stated that they have shown it can and I am betting that it will. It's kind of like Jughead. TPTB introduced Jughead to us, completly out of the blue, in one single episode. What if they did nothing further with it? It would make Jughead completly pointless and have wasted an hour of airtime. Well, same idea to me about TCC. Why go there if they are not going to do something with it? It would be a pointless waste of time. I don't think that they are in the habit of doing that.
TPTB have just introduced the idea now that TCC. We will, in my opinion, see it happen before the end of the season....or, as a result of whatever happens at the end of the season, then we will see it in 06.

True, they probably wouldn't introduce the notion of TCC and then completely ignore it. But TPTB don't have to validate the theory in order for it to play a role.

For example, they could go ahead and say that time can in fact change, and the characters can literally change what happens to them.

They could also have some of the characters believe they can change time, and in their attempt to do so, realize (eventually) that what they choose to do only ensures what has already happened to them.

In either instance the idead of TCC is revisited, and in one case it plays a role without it even being true.

[ortrules]

Well, same idea to me about TCC. Why go there if they are not going to do something with it? It would be a pointless waste of time.

Because fans have been asking "can you change things?" So they dedicate an episode to Dan coming back and trying to change things. They ended the episode with Dan getting shot and likely dying, confirming that he couldn't change things and WHH.

This has also not been the first time the losties have tried to change things. If you recall, Sayid tried to implement change by shooting Ben. He also failed. Ben was not only rescued by Richard, but it also showed us that Sayid was always supposed to shoot Ben so that Ben could become an Other. Was that a pointless waste of time?

If you're concerned with this being a pointless waste of time, might I point you in the following directions:

Libby in the mental hospital.
Nikki and Paulo.
Jack's tattoo.
The first half of season 3.

I also find it ironic that as someone hoping that the future can change, you would use the term "pointless waste of time". If, for instance, you can change the future like Dan wanted to stop Oceanic 815 from crashing, then wouldn't this entire show from season 1-4 be a "pointless waste of time"?

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

Why go there if they are not going to do something with it? It would be a pointless waste of time.

I disagree. I think there is plenty of entertainment value in allowing the audience to contemplate WHH vs. TCC. I think TPTB threw us a teaser with Dan in getting us to think that the past can be changed. It's just a little misdirection because a lot of folks don't grasp the idea of WHH...it seems to constrictive to folks.

[notsolost42]

I beleive that Jack and Kate and whoever else that wants to be involved are going to attempt to change the past. However, the story will play out just like it was suppose to giving us futhur insight to the Dharma missing pieces and island mysteries. Locke and Sun will be successfull in moving the past losties back to the present and a whole new set of problems will be set up for next season that probably will have nothing to do with time-travel. My guess is next season will be more about the shadow people.

So they will continue on this idea of TCC that they introduced but it wont be successfull.

BTW: TCC was actually introduced in Sayid's episode when Sayid tried to change the past by shooting Ben. Little did he know, that it was that action that ultimatly made Ben who he grew up to, again pointing towards WHH.

Was it really the action that ultimatly made Ben grow up the way he did? Ben had a pretty lousey childhood with Roger and was looking to join the Others before Sayid came along. I can't say that it was the single incident that made Ben the way he is. I think it simply was a contributory event. I think that if Sayid did not shoot Ben he may have grown up just the same way. Ben was always going to join the Others. Sayid had no influence on that. Ben always had a bad childhood. I'm not saying it had no impact but perhaps not as much as you think, that's all. Just my opinion.

[Missie]

[/COLOR]

Was it really the action that ultimatly made Ben grow up the way he did? Ben had a pretty lousey childhood with Roger and was looking to join the Others before Sayid came along. I can't say that it was the single incident that made Ben the way he is. I think it simply was a contributory event. I think that if Sayid did not shoot Ben he may have grown up just the same way. Ben was always going to join the Others. Sayid had no influence on that. Ben always had a bad childhood. I'm not saying it had no impact but perhaps not as much as you think, that's all. Just my opinion.

Ill give you that. But not completly. We dont know what would have happened if Sayid had not shot Ben. So its not really not right for me to say that it was the ultimate factor. But it was a big one. If Sayid had not shot Ben, then He would not have gone to the temple. And we really dont know what happened in there. Either way it was still an introduction to the TCC thoery.

[notsolost42]

Because fans have been asking "can you change things?" So they dedicate an episode to Dan coming back and trying to change things. They ended the episode with Dan getting shot and likely dying, confirming that he couldn't change things and WHH.

This has also not been the first time the losties have tried to change things. If you recall, Sayid tried to implement change by shooting Ben. He also failed. Ben was not only rescued by Richard, but it also showed us that Sayid was always supposed to shoot Ben so that Ben could become an Other. Was that a pointless waste of time?

If you're concerned with this being a pointless waste of time, might I point you in the following directions:

Libby in the mental hospital.
Nikki and Paulo.
Jack's tattoo.
The first half of season 3.

I also find it ironic that as someone hoping that the future can change, you would use the term "pointless waste of time". If, for instance, you can change the future like Dan wanted to stop Oceanic 815 from crashing, then wouldn't this entire show from season 1-4 be a "pointless waste of time"?

TPTB have said that no, they were not going to visit Libby's story again but they also said that the reason she was in the mental hospital was a huge reason that things turned out the way they did. They had time constraints and could not write her story in any more. I think it was in an interview from within the last two or three weeks when they made their statement.

Nikki and Paulo were fan driven characters that TPTB catered to and they also were not happy with them. They bent to fan pressure to introduce more characters from the crash. Bad move.

Jack's tatoo was also a complete waste of one hour and they admit to that as well.

The first half of season 3 is just your opinion. I think it had great relevance to our story.

By your mentioning these particular issues I gather that you read the TV Guide interview when they discussed these very things!

[notsolost42]

Ill give you that. But not completly. We dont know what would have happened if Sayid had not shot Ben. So its not really not right for me to say that it was the ultimate factor. But it was a big one. If Sayid had not shot Ben, then He would not have gone to the temple. And we really dont know what happened in there. Either way it was still an introduction to the TCC thoery.

Yes, okay it was. And perhaps it has....

[ortrules]

Ill give you that. But not completly. We dont know what would have happened if Sayid had not shot Ben. So its not really not right for me to say that it was the ultimate factor. But it was a big one. If Sayid had not shot Ben, then He would not have gone to the temple. And we really dont know what happened in there. Either way it was still an introduction to the TCC thoery.

As I saw it. Ben told Sayid that he spoke with Richard 4 years ago. I don't think there were any plans coming up to invite Ben into the Others. And when Richard did take Ben to the Temple, he mentioned that Ben would lose his innocence. And in all likelihood, Ben went through the same transition that Rousseau's crew did. So I'd say that was wholly important, and without this event, Ben would not be who he is today. At the very least, Ben wouldn't have been healed at the Temple and dealt with the "side effects" from that.

But regardless, it was Sayid's intention to kill young Ben and change the past/future with older Ben.

[Missie]

[COLOR=white]By your mentioning these particular issues I gather that you read the TV Guide interview when they discussed these very things!

I dont want to speak for Ort, but Im guessing he knew those episodes were a waste of time before the tv guide interview.... we have discussed them as being a waste of time pretty much since I joined this forum. Nice to see that the producers are finnaly admitting it!

[ortrules]

TPTB have said that no, they were not going to visit Libby's story again but they also said that the reason she was in the mental hospital was a huge reason that things turned out the way they did. They had time constraints and could not write her story in any more. I think it was in an interview from within the last two or three weeks when they made their statement.

Nikki and Paulo were fan driven characters that TPTB catered to and they also were not happy with them. They bent to fan pressure to introduce more characters from the crash. Bad move.

Jack's tatoo was also a complete waste of one hour and they admit to that as well.

I did not read this interview, but I already knew the reasons for these things. But it still doesn't negate the fact that these will now always be "pointless" things that happened in Lost. When all is said and done and we rewatch the entire series, these will be the things we point out and say "well that was useless". The point being, Lost is a TV show and is not immune to these kinds of responses.

[Panda]

[/COLOR]

Was it really the action that ultimatly made Ben grow up the way he did? Ben had a pretty lousey childhood with Roger and was looking to join the Others before Sayid came along. I can't say that it was the single incident that made Ben the way he is. I think it simply was a contributory event. I think that if Sayid did not shoot Ben he may have grown up just the same way. Ben was always going to join the Others. Sayid had no influence on that. Ben always had a bad childhood. I'm not saying it had no impact but perhaps not as much as you think, that's all. Just my opinion.

But her you are saying that no matter what the losties did in 77 that Ben would always end up with the others....that sounds pretty much WHH not really TCC
Or do I misunderstand it? So please correct me if I misunderstood.

[notsolost42]

I did not read this interview, but I already knew the reasons for these things. But it still doesn't negate the fact that these will now always be "pointless" things that happened in Lost. When all is said and done and we rewatch the entire series, these will be the things we point out and say "well that was useless". The point being, Lost is a TV show and is not immune to these kinds of responses.

Ah, okay. And are you lumping TCC in with that group? Because if you are you may be a bit premature on that one and might want to consider waiting just a bit before you do. Otherwise, you might sound just a wee bit rigid in your thoughts. And Ort, I know you are not rigid in any way! :rolleyes:My opinion anyway.

[notsolost42]

But her you are saying that no matter what the losties did in 77 that Ben would always end up with the others....that sounds pretty much WHH not really TCC
Or do I misunderstand it? So please correct me if I misunderstood.

Panda, I believe what the other people may be saying is that Ben wound up with the Others because Sayid shot him. I am saying that he already had decided he wanted to be with them before that and Richard Alpert had already spoken to him and told him he was special. So, in other words, Ben would have wound up with the Others even if Sayid did not shoot him. Sayid did not change things nor did he prove WHH. He really had no influence, or very little actually, on Ben becoming an Other. So, he did not influence history one way or the other. If it would have happened either way, then WHH did not even include Sayid. And that is why the losties are variables.

[smthng2dowthlost]

but we know charles wouldn't have let little ben in the temple because he yelled at richard for bringing an outsider. If sayid hadn't shot ben richard would never have taken ben to the temple, by doing that he overruled widmore's objection of letting ben be an other.

[notsolost42]

but we know charles wouldn't have let little ben in the temple because he yelled at richard for bringing an outsider. If sayid hadn't shot ben richard would never have taken ben to the temple, by doing that he overruled widmore's objection of letting ben be an other.

We know this???? Really??? How and when was all this revealed???? Richard could care less about what Chuckie thought and he has said that. Ben was always going to be an Other ever since he met with Richard in the jungle after he saw his mother by the sonic fence. Richard told him he was special but he would have to wait. He was always going to be an Other. I don't think that Charles has any say so or control over Richard at all.

[ortrules]

Ah, okay. And are you lumping TCC in with that group? Because if you are you may be a bit premature on that one and might want to consider waiting just a bit before you do. Otherwise, you might sound just a wee bit rigid in your thoughts. And Ort, I know you are not rigid in any way! :rolleyes:My opinion anyway.

I am just now going to sound a wee bit rigid in my thoughts? pffftt...that don't scare me. :p

Here's a thread I started talking about Horace in Locke's dream - and how it supported my ex-favorite time loop theory. If you search harder, you'll see me supporting the time loop theory. I don't anymore.
http://www.lost.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3033

Here's one where I say Ben and Widmore are actually working together.
http://www.lost.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2768

Here's one after we saw Ben waking up in Tunisia. I guessed that he passed through the Arctic to get there. And after reading this thread, I think it would have been better for Ben to pass through the arctic than go through a frozen donkey wheel chamber.
http://www.lost.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2669

Those are just a taste. What a crazy ride it's been.

[ortrules]

We know this???? Really??? How and when was all this revealed???? Richard could care less about what Chuckie thought and he has said that. Ben was always going to be an Other ever since he met with Richard in the jungle after he saw his mother by the sonic fence. Richard told him he was special but he would have to wait. He was always going to be an Other. I don't think that Charles has any say so or control over Richard at all.

I'd say the way Charles reacted to Ben is the same way Ben reacted to Locke. Both were threatened by the sudden entrance of this new guy. It's all guessing, of course, but I'd say that Charles would have refused to let Ben be an Other for fear that Ben would take his position - which he did. But now that Ben has already been to the Temple, it's too late for that. Much like it was too late for Ben when rumors of Locke landing on the island hit the Others.

[notsolost42]

I am just now going to sound a wee bit rigid in my thoughts? pffftt...that don't scare me. :p

Here's a thread I started talking about Horace in Locke's dream - and how it supported my ex-favorite time loop theory. If you search harder, you'll see me supporting the time loop theory. I don't anymore.
http://www.lost.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3033

Here's one where I say Ben and Widmore are actually working together.
http://www.lost.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2768

Here's one after we saw Ben waking up in Tunisia. I guessed that he passed through the Arctic to get there. And after reading this thread, I think it would have been better for Ben to pass through the arctic than go through a frozen donkey wheel chamber.
http://www.lost.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2669

Those are just a taste. What a crazy ride it's been.

...I KNOW!!!!....You? Rigid???? Pishaw!!!!! :D This has been and still is a crazy ride! And, I think the season finale will nail all our butts to the wall this time and then next year, who knows????????????

My season 5 finale prediction: Jack detonates Jughead and we see everything go boom!!!!! Fade to black......

[smthng2dowthlost]

We know this???? Really??? How and when was all this revealed???? Richard could care less about what Chuckie thought and he has said that. Ben was always going to be an Other ever since he met with Richard in the jungle after he saw his mother by the sonic fence. Richard told him he was special but he would have to wait. He was always going to be an Other. I don't think that Charles has any say so or control over Richard at all.

Not richard but ben richard can do what he wants but widmore is in charge of the others. And richard didn't say ben was special he replied to ben "maybe that can happen maybe but you have to be patient" I guess we all jump to conclusions with certain dialogues.

[notsolost42]

Not richard but ben richard can do what he wants but widmore is in charge of the others. And richard didn't say ben was special he replied to ben "maybe that can happen maybe but you have to be patient" I guess we all jump to conclusions with certain dialogues.

Got the transcript to back up your version of the dialogue?

[ortrules]

RICHARD: Whoa whoa whoa whoa. Whoa. Whoa, hey, hey, whoa, I didn't mean to scare you. Wait, wait! Are you lost? Wait!
BEN: Are you one of them?
RICHARD: One of whom?
BEN: A hostile.
RICHARD: Do you even know what that word means? What's your name?
BEN: Ben.
RICHARD: Ben? So you wanna tell me what you're doing in the middle of the jungle all by yourself?
BEN: I left home, and...I'm looking for my Mom.
RICHARD: You think she's out here?
BEN: You wouldn't believe me.
RICHARD: Try me.
BEN: She's dead.
RICHARD: Did she die here, on the Island?
BEN: No. When I was a baby.
RICHARD: Did you see her, out here, Ben, in the jungle?
BEN: She talked to me.
RICHARD: What did she say?
BEN: That I couldn't come with her. She said it wasn't time yet.
RICHARD: You should go home now, your people will be looking for you.
BEN: I don't want to go back there! I hate it there! Take me with you.
RICHARD: Maybe that can happen, maybe. But if that's what you really want, Ben, if that's what you want, I want you to really think about that. And you're gonna have to be very, very patient.

[smthng2dowthlost]

thanks ort

[notsolost42]

Thanks Ort! You're always so good at that! So, even though the words that were quoted before by smthg2dowthlost was really only part of what Richard says and smooshes the beginning and the end of the statement together, which does not give it the right perspective to me. Thanks for the entire dialogue. My bad, I thought Richard said Ben was special, he just noticed it instead. It was an implied belief by his questions to Ben.

[boutte]

And i thought I was smart because I noticed the torn out page.

[notsolost42]

And i thought I was smart because I noticed the torn out page.

The torn out page is probably going to be very important Boutte! What do you wanna bet Eloise Hawking did it back in Ann Arbor???? hahahahaha!!!

[smthng2dowthlost]

Thanks Ort! You're always so good at that! So, even though the words that were quoted before by smthg2dowthlost was really only part of what Richard says and smooshes the beginning and the end of the statement together, which does not give it the right perspective to me. Thanks for the entire dialogue. My bad, I thought Richard said Ben was special, he just noticed it instead. It was an implied belief by his questions to Ben.

Oh come on I only missed the I want you to really really think about this if thats what you want part My memory isn't that good:D

[boutte]

The torn out page is probably going to be very important Boutte! What do you wanna bet Eloise Hawking did it back in Ann Arbor???? hahahahaha!!!

This time loop just keeps getting bigger and bigger.

[InTheBeginning]

Why didn't I think of this until that transcript above?

Ben's mom (Emily) has to be tied in here somewhere if she's showing up on the island, right? Or was she just 'attached' to Ben's memory and 'appeared' on the island that way? Had Emily been to the island before meeting Roger?

[chester]

Yes, I'm thinking that torn page was the major point of that shot, because he seems to be reading from one side of the book to the other - as if, what was about to happen down there was written on the torn out page. Maybe that's an important scene.

Has anyone found any 'production errors' between the scene as we see it in ep1 and in ep14? Was it the same guy? I don't know, just fishing...

[notsolost42]

Why didn't I think of this until that transcript above?

Ben's mom (Emily) has to be tied in here somewhere if she's showing up on the island, right? Or was she just 'attached' to Ben's memory and 'appeared' on the island that way? Had Emily been to the island before meeting Roger?

Actually, there is talk per Michael Emerson...SPOILER....

That his wife, who played Emily Linus, will make another appearance...I hipe he meant on the island! Or at least shown to be connected with it somehow!

[InTheBeginning]

Actually, there is talk per Michael Emerson...SPOILER....


cool http://www.vhlinks.com/vbforums/images/smilies/thumb.gif