TCC, Variables, WHH, Constants, the Past and the Future

[notsolost42]

Let's take a rational look at all this. These are not really mutually exclusive ideas if you think about it. Mrs. Hawking's explains to Desmond that the man with the red shoes will always die. And whether it is under a collapsed building, hit by a car, or falling in the shower, he will always die. That is WHH, right? I believe so. The act of the man dying, what I'll call the event, is a constant. The constant, mathematically speaking not time travel speaking that is. What the variable is, in this case, is the way he dies. It can change. It can happen in any number of ways she pointed out, but it will still happen. The variable is the method he dies. It always was and it was always explained to us. Mrs. Hawking just never elaborated about that point.

The variable, the method of death in the case of the man with the red shoes, will affect a different set of people depending upon which way he dies. If the man is hit by a car, then the driver and his family and his insurance company, right down to his auto mechanic and the girl at the front desk are affected. These are the ripples that flow outward from the method of his death. This is essentially the Butterfly Effect. If the man dies under the building collapse, as we witnessed, it affects the owner of the construction company, the workers, the city inspectors, the hot dog vender at the building sight. These are the ripples that flow outward from this method of his death.

The point is, there are always constants and variables. It was always explained to us. The constants, the course correction as it were, will always happen. Thus, a constant. The variables are the methods, the ways it can happen. The variables are the unexpected or unidentified, something that is capable of causing change. The losties are variables because they are creating their futures not creating the past. The losties can still exercise free will to create whatever future they want to for themselves. This will generate its own ripples outward an touch everything else. I don't know if any major event that happened in the past can be changed. Probably not. That will remain WHH because it is the past. I am sure that there will be minimal affects though.

Case in point. Young Benjamin Linus sees his dead mother. They talk. One night, he runs to the sonic fence and Richard finds him. He tells Richard how unhappy he is and that he wants to join the Others. Richard tells him that he must think it through and if he really wants to then it may be possible. I think Richard has taken special notice of Ben's story about seeing his dead mother. He ahd asked him questions about her. That was one past. Then, after time flashes, we have the moment when Sayid pulls a gun out and shoots little Ben. Young Ben is brought to Richard to save his life. He takes him and does so at the Temple. Whether Sayid shot Ben or not I firmly believe that Ben would have become an Other. Sayid's influence in the past did not change it. And it was because WHH but not for the reason that Sayid had always shot Ben. I think that it was because Ben would have always become an Other. Sayid really did not influence the past at all.

So, with this example, I am saying that the losties can influence their futures and TCC. It may minimally affect the past, just as Sayid shooting Ben did. Ben would have always become an Other. Perhaps it was the actions of Sayid that simply sped it up. It never changed it. Sayid has influenced his own future though.

I hope that this makes sense to you all. I hope I have explained how it can all exist together but that WHH references the past and what is constant and has and always will happen and TCC references the future and the variables that were not accounted for and the changes they will make. This is my view of it all and my opinion anyway.

[Epy]

I concur. Well said, I have nothing more to say without repeating what you said.

[LOSTLOST]

makes sense to me. Very good explaination Notso

[chester]

The only thing I'd like to suggest, is that we use HCC (history can change) instead of TCC. Because, to me, time seems to be changing all the time. :D

[notsolost42]

The only thing I'd like to suggest, is that we use HCC (history can change) instead of TCC. Because, to me, time seems to be changing all the time. :D

But they are not changing history. They are not really changing the past. So, to me, history doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Yes, agreed, time does always change. But in this instance, we are using the term time in a very generalized way.

[chester]

But they are not changing history. They are not really changing the past. So, to me, history doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Yes, agreed, time does always change. But in this instance, we are using the term time in a very generalized way.

Variables are changing historical events, i.e., history. They are not turning time into anything different, are they? Even generally?

[LincolnEcho06]

The one thing that was perhaps bounced around was Eloise's ability to see the future happen to people. Well, let's go back to when the hatch blew up and remember Desmond is extremely close when the electro-magnetic force is emitted. Desmond is found running through the jungle naked (lucky for the ladies) and has the new-found ability to foresee Charlie's deaths. We find out that however many times Desmond stops Charlie from death, it is inevitable he will have to die.

I am guessing based on my evidence mentioned that Eloise is close to the electro-magnetic force in the "incident" and gets the ability to foresee people's deaths even if they are stopped. Perhaps she possesses this ability throughout life due to being very close to the explosion and the electromagnetic force being so high in the "incident".

[notsolost42]

The one thing that was perhaps bounced around was Eloise's ability to see the future happen to people. Well, let's go back to when the hatch blew up and remember Desmond is extremely close when the electro-magnetic force is emitted. Desmond is found running through the jungle naked (lucky for the ladies) and has the new-found ability to foresee Charlie's deaths. We find out that however many times Desmond stops Charlie from death, it is inevitable he will have to die.

I am guessing based on my evidence mentioned that Eloise is close to the electro-magnetic force in the "incident" and gets the ability to foresee people's deaths even if they are stopped. Perhaps she possesses this ability throughout life due to being very close to the explosion and the electromagnetic force being so high in the "incident".

That is an excellent thought!

[Lost Down Under]

Does this mean then that Flight 815 would have always crashed on the island, even if Desmond hadn't stopped pushing the button? Does it mean that the Gang (Jack, Kate, John etc) would have met no matter what - even if they hadn't have been on the plane?

[LincolnEcho06]

Going along with the themes on the show there is one where Eloise and Desmond could see people's deaths no matter if they changed. Then there is the constants and variables mixed in with time skipping; which seems to be the problem occuring (or was occurring) with the 77ers. Finally, there is the earlier theme of fate.

I honestly think if Desmond would have pressed the button, the plane would not have crashed; as that was determined back in season 2. When other factors can't be explained, it looks like fate is the answer. Fate is also the easier answer. I think only time will tell the answer. Jack may wake up in the airport and it was all a dream.

[Epy]

Does this mean then that Flight 815 would have always crashed on the island, even if Desmond hadn't stopped pushing the button? Does it mean that the Gang (Jack, Kate, John etc) would have met no matter what - even if they hadn't have been on the plane?

For the first one, theoretically yes, but this theory might not work for this particular event. If someone went back in time to push the button for Desmond, then 815 would find another way to crash, or something would happen to prevent the person from pushing the button. This is course correction at work, the outcome remains the same but the events are slightly different.

For the second one, not neccecarily. That would be an outstanding string of coincidences!

Heres another example of how this would work. If someone went back in time to save Locke from falling out the window, he would either still end up on flight 815 for a different reason, or the person would have there attempt to save Locke prevented somehow.

We are starting to see the big picture now. WHH, Course correction, variables; they are all cogs in the large machine that is space-time.

[notsolost42]

For the first one, theoretically yes, but this theory might not work for this particular event. If someone went back in time to push the button for Desmond, then 815 would find another way to crash, or something would happen to prevent the person from pushing the button. This is course correction at work, the outcome remains the same but the events are slightly different.

For the second one, not neccecarily. That would be an outstanding string of coincidences!

Heres another example of how this would work. If someone went back in time to save Locke from falling out the window, he would either still end up on flight 815 for a different reason, or the person would have there attempt to save Locke prevented somehow.

We are starting to see the big picture now. WHH, Course correction, variables; they are all cogs in the large machine that is space-time.

Well said Epy, well said! The losties were all manipulated through constants and variables to even be on 815 in the first place. Some events were most likely influenced by Ellie or Charles or who knows who, and other events would have always happened. The ripples in the pond were great and seems to have led them all to the island.

[Lost Down Under]

For the first one, theoretically yes, but this theory might not work for this particular event. If someone went back in time to push the button for Desmond, then 815 would find another way to crash, or something would happen to prevent the person from pushing the button. This is course correction at work, the outcome remains the same but the events are slightly different.

For the second one, not neccecarily. That would be an outstanding string of coincidences!
Heres another example of how this would work. If someone went back in time to save Locke from falling out the window, he would either still end up on flight 815 for a different reason, or the person would have there attempt to save Locke prevented somehow.

We are starting to see the big picture now. WHH, Course correction, variables; they are all cogs in the large machine that is space-time.

But throughout all of S01 and S02, we saw nothing but a string of coincidences about how the O6 crossed each other's paths. So why would it be such an outstanding string of coincidences? Sorry, don't mean to sound rude.

Uh oh - my head is hurting now thinking about all this. As always, just when I think I'm getting it....BAM something comes up and I've lost it all.....!

[Lost Down Under]

For the first one, theoretically yes, but this theory might not work for this particular event. If someone went back in time to push the button for Desmond, then 815 would find another way to crash, or something would happen to prevent the person from pushing the button. This is course correction at work, the outcome remains the same but the events are slightly different.

For the second one, not neccecarily. That would be an outstanding string of coincidences!

Heres another example of how this would work. If someone went back in time to save Locke from falling out the window, he would either still end up on flight 815 for a different reason, or the person would have there attempt to save Locke prevented somehow.

We are starting to see the big picture now. WHH, Course correction, variables; they are all cogs in the large machine that is space-time.

Well said Epy, well said! The losties were all manipulated through constants and variables to even be on 815 in the first place. Some events were most likely influenced by Ellie or Charles or who knows who, and other events would have always happened. The ripples in the pond were great and seems to have led them all to the island.


How were they manipulated? And what events were influenced by Ellie / Charles / someone else? I can only really think of John being influenced by Matthew Abbadon. (But, my memory is about as good as a goldfishs, so maybe I'm forgetting more than I think I am!)

[tpbaxter]

I agree HCC sounds more appropriate than TCC.

About Eloise Hawking and the man with red shoes; should we take what she said about him at face value? That whole business about "course correction" sounds like stupid superstitious mumbo jumbo if you ask me. If someone pulls me back to the curb before crossing the street and saves me from getting hit by a car, are you saying that I'm still going to die later? no point in saving me? beside the fact that everyone dies eventually, that concept just doesn't make sense. I don't see how that has any scientific merit.

I say the only real effect those comments about course correction had on Desmond was that it made him believe he could not save Charlie Pace... Maybe that's why she said it? I mean, if everything was going to be course corrected, then why did she scold Desmond for not buying the ring? One way or the other he was going to end up on that Island, so let him do whatever he wants?

[chester]

I agree HCC sounds more appropriate than TCC.

About Eloise Hawking and the man with red shoes; should we take what she said about him at face value? That whole business about "course correction" sounds like stupid superstitious mumbo jumbo if you ask me. If someone pulls me back to the curb before crossing the street and saves me from getting hit by a car, are you saying that I'm still going to die later? no point in saving me? beside the fact that everyone dies eventually, that concept just doesn't make sense. I don't see how that has any scientific merit.

I say the only real effect those comments about course correction had on Desmond was that it made him believe he could not save Charlie Pace... Maybe that's why she said it? I mean, if everything was going to be course corrected, then why did she scold Desmond for not buying the ring? One way or the other he was going to end up on that Island, so let him do whatever he wants?

I think we were witnessing some 'course correction' right there, when Eloise talked him back into not getting the ring, like he didn't last time. I agree, 'course correction' not involving people sounds a bit silly. Unless, the Copenhagen interpretation is used, so some kind of conscious observation would need to be involved for any reality to exist - and this is where Jacob comes in.

[notsolost42]

[QUOTE=notsolost42;214227]


How were they manipulated? And what events were influenced by Ellie / Charles / someone else? I can only really think of John being influenced by Matthew Abbadon. (But, my memory is about as good as a goldfishs, so maybe I'm forgetting more than I think I am!)

Yeah, the devil's in the details. I am speaking in more of an overview rather than specifics but there are some. Many are still unexplained. For instance, Thoomas, Claire's boyfriend and Aaron's father, was a painter, right? Well, in a scene of Desmond in Charles Widmore's office there was a painted by Thomas. That was in 1996. Then, in 2004 we see that same painting in Claire and Thomas's apartment. Why? Don't know. But, what we can safely infer is that Widmore had known Thomas. So, you can go out on a limb and think that perhaps he had some influence in him leaving Claire, which started her on her journey to 815. Stuff like that.

[notsolost42]

I agree HCC sounds more appropriate than TCC.

About Eloise Hawking and the man with red shoes; should we take what she said about him at face value? That whole business about "course correction" sounds like stupid superstitious mumbo jumbo if you ask me. If someone pulls me back to the curb before crossing the street and saves me from getting hit by a car, are you saying that I'm still going to die later? no point in saving me? beside the fact that everyone dies eventually, that concept just doesn't make sense. I don't see how that has any scientific merit.

I say the only real effect those comments about course correction had on Desmond was that it made him believe he could not save Charlie Pace... Maybe that's why she said it? I mean, if everything was going to be course corrected, then why did she scold Desmond for not buying the ring? One way or the other he was going to end up on that Island, so let him do whatever he wants?

Except we are not talking about history. History is the past. That is not what I was saying. You and Chester can think that but it really has nothing to do with what I have said though.

[Lost Down Under]

[QUOTE=Lost Down Under;214231]

Yeah, the devil's in the details. I am speaking in more of an overview rather than specifics but there are some. Many are still unexplained. For instance, Thoomas, Claire's boyfriend and Aaron's father, was a painter, right? Well, in a scene of Desmond in Charles Widmore's office there was a painted by Thomas. That was in 1996. Then, in 2004 we see that same painting in Claire and Thomas's apartment. Why? Don't know. But, what we can safely infer is that Widmore had known Thomas. So, you can go out on a limb and think that perhaps he had some influence in him leaving Claire, which started her on her journey to 815. Stuff like that.

Yeah, OK fair enough. I forgot about all those little details.

[notsolost42]

[QUOTE=notsolost42;214240]

Yeah, OK fair enough. I forgot about all those little details.

I'm just inferring these things from those strange stats that we do know. I think TPTB have left a lot up to us to infer and figure out. I keep calling it a trail of breadcrumbs...like in the Hansel and Gretel fairy tale.

[linuxit]

My take is that Faraday thought he was a variable, but he turned out to be a constant.

[chester]

Except we are not talking about history. History is the past. That is not what I was saying. You and Chester can think that but it really has nothing to do with what I have said though.

Of course, how silly of me. History is the past. *slaps forhead* There's no time in the past, is there? So how exactly does time change again. I obviously completely misunderstood what you were saying. Which, as I understood it, was nothing new by the way.

[notsolost42]

Of course, how silly of me. History is the past. *slaps forhead* There's no time in the past, is there? So how exactly does time change again. I obviously completely misunderstood what you were saying. Which, as I understood it, was nothing new by the way.

You know, you just never cease to amaze me. I guess we are not as smart as you are Chester.

[chester]

Nor you me, Nots. I don't think other people would appreciate you speaking on their behalf on that last bit though :D

[wiley]

If the universe really did course correction then I would find my keys.

[ortrules]

I don't believe in course correction, I think that was a giant ruse by Mrs. Hawking to manipulate Desmond. The only reason Desmond backed down from proposing to Penny is because Hawking told Desmond that he is meant to go to the island and he can't prevent it - and Desmond took that as fact.

Yet, if we are to say that humans are variables with free will, then Desmond can prevent it - and course correction is worthless.

I think the best situation to look at is Charlie and Desmond in the Looking Glass station. Had Desmond not saved Charlie all those previous times, who would have stopped the jamming code to get Penny's message? I believe Charlie is the only one of our Losties who has enough musical training to do what needed to be done. I can't imagine some outside force would magical course correct Desmond so that he would know how to play the code.

Second, the guy Mrs. Hawking was talking about. Let's say that guy survives and the universe course corrects like Mrs. Hawking says. So then a taxi comes along and hits the guy and kills him. Doesn't that change everything? Now not only is that guy dead, but now we have a taxi driver who could face charges, a taxi company that will have to take some heat, family members suing, etc etc. The overall outcome of that minor change will have had a much larger effect - similar to the idea of the butterfly effect. But then what, does time just keeping correcting itself over and over so that the taxi people don't get in trouble? It seems like a large stretch to be taken as truth.

[abcd1234]

if there is course correction, then it wouldnt matter if the swan was built, the plane would crash for another reason, right? so what happened with charlie, how did desmond know he was going to die, and why did he keep almost dying? (if there is no course correction)

[ortrules]

so what happened with charlie, how did desmond know he was going to die, and why did he keep almost dying?

I would chalk up Desmond's visions to the same kind of magical power that the island performed when it took 4 passengers of 316 back in time while everyone else stayed in the present - it did it because it had to. The island needed Charlie to survive, so it gave Desmond these visions in the hope that Desmond would be the nice guy we all think he is and save Charlie until the time was right.

[notsolost42]

I don't believe in course correction, I think that was a giant ruse by Mrs. Hawking to manipulate Desmond. The only reason Desmond backed down from proposing to Penny is because Hawking told Desmond that he is meant to go to the island and he can't prevent it - and Desmond took that as fact.

Yet, if we are to say that humans are variables with free will, then Desmond can prevent it - and course correction is worthless.

I think the best situation to look at is Charlie and Desmond in the Looking Glass station. Had Desmond not saved Charlie all those previous times, who would have stopped the jamming code to get Penny's message? I believe Charlie is the only one of our Losties who has enough musical training to do what needed to be done. I can't imagine some outside force would magical course correct Desmond so that he would know how to play the code.

Second, the guy Mrs. Hawking was talking about. Let's say that guy survives and the universe course corrects like Mrs. Hawking says. So then a taxi comes along and hits the guy and kills him. Doesn't that change everything? Now not only is that guy dead, but now we have a taxi driver who could face charges, a taxi company that will have to take some heat, family members suing, etc etc. The overall outcome of that minor change will have had a much larger effect - similar to the idea of the butterfly effect. But then what, does time just keeping correcting itself over and over so that the taxi people don't get in trouble? It seems like a large stretch to be taken as truth.

ou seem to miss the point Ort. The event that was course corrected was the man in the red shoes dying. Period. The variable was the way he died and yes, you finally see how variables can change things with an outflow of ripples in spacetime!
Constant that will be course corrected until it occurs = man in red shoes dying.
Variable that can change everything is the way he dies and the affects it has on everyone else.
The universe was simply interested in the man in the red shoes at that point and not the other people that affected. They will have their own histories in time....

[bunnydixon]

I would chalk up Desmond's visions to the same kind of magical power that the island performed when it took 4 passengers of 316 back in time while everyone else stayed in the present - it did it because it had to. The island needed Charlie to survive, so it gave Desmond these visions in the hope that Desmond would be the nice guy we all think he is and save Charlie until the time was right.

i waffled some about this on another thread.

its been assumed that desmond had these visions due to time travelling, therefore at some point the events he 'saw' had to actually have happened. sometimes its easy to forget this is just an assumption and not actual fact.

therefore, there is the high chance that these visions are not events that occured and charlie never actually died in any other alternate past etc..this makes the most sense otherwise, desmond saving charlie over and over would technically have created several paradoxes based on the WHH rule.

i also waffled elsewhere about oedipus - the whole concept of trying to change your destiny but in doing so, inadvertently causing the very thing you were trying to avoid happen. i think this is exactly what is going on within the show so whilst you may vary the route that is taken you ultimatley end up at the same destination.

[wiley]

I think it's easy to "cherry pick" a specific item or event to reinforce a point of view. But if you look at the big picture or the totality of the show so far, the rule of WHH still holds.

[Pung]

I think it's easy to "cherry pick" a specific item or event to reinforce a point of view. But if you look at the big picture or the totality of the show so far, the rule of WHH still holds.

Oh snap! Wiley's holding it down for WHH. I applaud you, brotha. Or sista, IDk.

[glroark]

I think, ultimately, that's what Lost is about. Viewers and characters are trying to figure out where Destiny ends and Freewill begins. Clearly, the Incident will happen - Destiny. Yet exact nature of Charlie's death is subject to Desmond's freewill. Noone (except TPTB) knows where the line is. Faraday didn't know, O6 does not know, Ben does not know and, I suspect, Eloise does not know either. Through trial and error characters are trying to figure it out. We can guess and maybe one of the guesses would be spot on, but the fact remains is that we don't have enough info yet to piece it all together.

[ortrules]

ou seem to miss the point Ort. The event that was course corrected was the man in the red shoes dying. Period. The variable was the way he died and yes, you finally see how variables can change things with an outflow of ripples in spacetime!
Constant that will be course corrected until it occurs = man in red shoes dying.
Variable that can change everything is the way he dies and the affects it has on everyone else.
The universe was simply interested in the man in the red shoes at that point and not the other people that affected. They will have their own histories in time....

I think you missed the point. Ok, fine, the universe is only interested in the man in red shoes at that point. And yes, it was only concerned with him dying. And how he dies is the variable. I'm with you on that, I don't disagree. However, if Mrs. Hawking saves him and the universe course corrects so that he dies another way, the new way he dies could have a dramatic effect on someone else, and it would begin to snowball from there.

For instance, Mrs. Hawking says:

"Had I warned him about the scaffolding tomorrow he'd be hit by a taxi. If I warned him about the taxi, he'd fall in the shower and break his neck. The universe, unfortunately, has a way of course correcting. That man was supposed to die"

The scaffolding is a freak accident that really puts no one at blame. The man getting hit by a taxi, well, that puts blame on the taxi driver, the taxi company, etc etc. If the universe were to course correct and that was the outcome, it would have a much different effect than this guy dying in a freak accident.

Now, let's also toy with another idea. Let's say that this man was working for Widmore and had important information on Ben. He is two blocks from Widmore and two blocks away from revealing important information. Mrs. Hawking saves him. Yes, the universe will eventually course correct so that he dies, but he will live long enough to deliver his message to Widmore - thereby dramatically changing events on the timeline.

[notsolost42]

I think you missed the point. Ok, fine, the universe is only interested in the man in red shoes at that point. And yes, it was only concerned with him dying. And how he dies is the variable. I'm with you on that, I don't disagree. However, if Mrs. Hawking saves him and the universe course corrects so that he dies another way, the new way he dies could have a dramatic effect on someone else, and it would begin to snowball from there.

For instance, Mrs. Hawking says:

"Had I warned him about the scaffolding tomorrow he'd be hit by a taxi. If I warned him about the taxi, he'd fall in the shower and break his neck. The universe, unfortunately, has a way of course correcting. That man was supposed to die"

The scaffolding is a freak accident that really puts no one at blame. The man getting hit by a taxi, well, that puts blame on the taxi driver, the taxi company, etc etc. If the universe were to course correct and that was the outcome, it would have a much different effect than this guy dying in a freak accident.

Now, let's also toy with another idea. Let's say that this man was working for Widmore and had important information on Ben. He is two blocks from Widmore and two blocks away from revealing important information. Mrs. Hawking saves him. Yes, the universe will eventually course correct so that he dies, but he will live long enough to deliver his message to Widmore - thereby dramatically changing events on the timeline.

Ah, so you do believe in variables!!!!! As for your last paragraph, I don't think I get your point. Is the universe interested in the man dying or is the universe interested in him delivering his information? That is the question.

[Pung]

I think, ultimately, that's what Lost is about. Viewers and characters are trying to figure out where Destiny ends and Freewill begins. Clearly, the Incident will happen - Destiny. Yet exact nature of Charlie's death is subject to Desmond's freewill. Noone (except TPTB) knows where the line is. Faraday didn't know, O6 does not know, Ben does not know and, I suspect, Eloise does not know either. Through trial and error characters are trying to figure it out. We can guess and maybe one of the guesses would be spot on, but the fact remains is that we don't have enough info yet to piece it all together.

The Incident is not Destiny...it's history. That is why it will always happen no matter whose consciousness you use to view it. If you are there at the time of the incident you will see it as it always happened.

Charlie's death happened in what we would describe as the present. We havent seen any alternate consciousness or perspective to determine any other timelines or universes that Charlie actually did die in one of Desmonds visions. Free will creates Destiny. And the fickle thing about Destiny is that you dont know what it is until its in the past.

[ortrules]

Ah, so you do believe in variables!!!!! As for your last paragraph, I don't think I get your point. Is the universe interested in the man dying or is the universe interested in him delivering his information? That is the question.

No, in context of the conversation we're having, I'm with you when it comes to the idea of variables.

In my last paragraph, the universe is interested in the man dying. The difference here is that he doesn't die because someone interrupts. The universe will course correct itself so he eventually dies, but he still manages to deliver information that he otherwise wouldn't had he just died the first time.

Perhaps a better example is Charlie and Desmond. As a believer in course correction, you would say that Charlie was ultimately going to die and Desmond just prolonged it. However, as we saw, Charlie played a vital role in shutting down the jamming frequency - a role that likely couldn't have been filled by another character. (If you believe it could have, you're crazy, no one else had musical training to do it) So by "changing" Charlie's death, a completely different outcome has been born. That's course correction, is it not?

Course correction can lead to different, though possibly unintended, outcomes. And I don't think it exists outside of the ruse Mrs. Hawking made up to convince Desmond to go to the island.

[notsolost42]

No, in context of the conversation we're having, I'm with you when it comes to the idea of variables.

In my last paragraph, the universe is interested in the man dying. The difference here is that he doesn't die because someone interrupts. The universe will course correct itself so he eventually dies, but he still manages to deliver information that he otherwise wouldn't had he just died the first time.

Perhaps a better example is Charlie and Desmond. As a believer in course correction, you would say that Charlie was ultimately going to die and Desmond just prolonged it. However, as we saw, Charlie played a vital role in shutting down the jamming frequency - a role that likely couldn't have been filled by another character. (If you believe it could have, you're crazy, no one else had musical training to do it) So by "changing" Charlie's death, a completely different outcome has been born. That's course correction, is it not?

Course correction can lead to different, though possibly unintended, outcomes. And I don't think it exists outside of the ruse Mrs. Hawking made up to convince Desmond to go to the island.

Do you honestly think that Hurley would not recognise the song Good Vibrations? Not that he could have ever swam down to the station but your premise that NO ONE COULD HAVE known the song to do this is wrong! It's a popular song known to many! How many pianists do we have in our little crew? Hmmm, let's see, Charlie, Jack, Daniel, Ben, and so on and so on. Now, how many other folks played other musical instruments or was involved in music? Hmmm, let's see, Hurley at the least. For all you know, Jack programed the song! Not that I am saying he did, but it would be entirly possible. So, other people could have entered the code is all I am saying! Call me crazy! It won't be the first time Ort!!! lol.

[ortrules]

Do you honestly think that Hurley would not recognise the song Good Vibrations? Not that he could have ever swam down to the station but your premise that NO ONE COULD HAVE known the song to do this is wrong! It's a popular song known to many! How many pianists do we have in our little crew? Hmmm, let's see, Charlie, Jack, Daniel, Ben, and so on and so on. Now, how many other folks played other musical instruments or was involved in music? Hmmm, let's see, Hurley at the least. For all you know, Jack programed the song! Not that I am saying he did, but it would be entirly possible. So, other people could have entered the code is all I am saying! Call me crazy! It won't be the first time Ort!!! lol.

Yes, everyone knows Good Vibrations. Do you? Ok, here's a test. Pick up your phone right now and try to play Good Vibrations on it. Go ahead. It should be easy, you know the song.

Second, Dan wasn't on the island when they went to the station. And Ben certainly wouldn't have helped them either. That leaves Charlie and Jack, and Jack was busy leading people to the middle of the island. So what else you got?

[notsolost42]

Yes, everyone knows Good Vibrations. Do you? Ok, here's a test. Pick up your phone right now and try to play Good Vibrations on it. Go ahead. It should be easy, you know the song.

Second, Dan wasn't on the island when they went to the station. And Ben certainly wouldn't have helped them either. That leaves Charlie and Jack, and Jack was busy leading people to the middle of the island. So what else you got?

But you said NO ONE ELSE could have done it....and you are not right.

[Pung]

But you said NO ONE ELSE could have done it....and you are not right.

But no one else was a bloody rock god!

[notsolost42]

But no one else was a bloody rock god!

Actually, neither was Charlie. He was a one hit wonder. Name a second song that was a hit!!! Hahahahaha!!!!

[ortrules]

But you said NO ONE ELSE could have done it....and you are not right.

I'm not right? Who else was going to do it then? You gave me three alternative options. Two could not/would not, and Jack was busy, so what else to you got?

Of all the survivors on that island, Charlie was the only person with enough musical training to do what he did. Until you can show me otherwise that someone else was available to do it, you have no argument.

[wiley]

I'm not right? Who else was going to do it then? You gave me three alternative options. Two could not/would not, and Jack was busy, so what else to you got?

Of all the survivors on that island, Charlie was the only person with enough musical training to do what he did. Until you can show me otherwise that someone else was available to do it, you have no argument.

Not to mention the fact that Charlie did do it and that fact is never going to change.

[Pung]

Not to mention the fact that Charlie did do it and that fact is never going to change.

Oh snap again! Thats the stuff that I am talking about Wiley!

[chester]

But no one else was a bloody rock god!

I watched the S1 ep where Charlie and Jack get caved in. Just after Charlie yells out "I'm a bloody rock god". *rocks come raining down*

Made me think of the Douglas Adams story where a truck driver in Europe, a guy who absolutely hates rain, spends almost his entire life being rained on. Because, unbeknown to him, he is a cloud god, and the clouds love him so much, and can't help but shower their love on him...LOL

So maybe Charlie was that kind of "rock" god.:D

[notsolost42]

Getting back on track here, has anyone else listened to the last podcast about The Variable? TPTB do say so much! And, there is a hint at something else that is clearly and completly out of the blue! I was wondering if anyone else heard it?

[Pung]

Getting back on track here, has anyone else listened to the last podcast about The Variable? TPTB do say so much! And, there is a hint at something else that is clearly and completly out of the blue! I was wondering if anyone else heard it?

I did not. Can you share without spoling?

[notsolost42]

I did not. Can you share without spoling?

Here's a link. You should listen to it! Enjoy!

http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/index?pn=podcast#t=3421

If you want to discuss it we certainly can. We may need a new thread in spoilers though I guess.

[Pung]

Here's a link. You should listen to it! Enjoy!

http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/index?pn=podcast#t=3421

If you want to discuss it we certainly can. We may need a new thread in spoilers though I guess.

Thank you, but I am very disappointed in your TCC thread. Let me know if you start a thread in the spoiler section please. Thanks again.

[notsolost42]

Thank you, but I am very disappointed in your TCC thread. Let me know if you start a thread in the spoiler section please. Thanks again.

Why are you disappointed in it? What I have said or how it degraded? I'm curious.