WHH or TCC

[tpbaxter]

ok people, this is it. a war is looming between the WHHers and the TCCers (aka HCCers) in a final confrontation of good vs. evil and the fate of the entire world is at stake. everyone must choose, but choose wisely.

here is an explanation of your choices:

WHH (What happened, happened):

WHHers believe that the Lost characters will crash on flight 815. There is only one reality and history will not be changed. WHAHers (What happpened always happened) are also part of this group.

Daniel Faraday, Eloise, Miles & Sawyer support the WHHers.

If the WHHers win their enemies will be destroyed in some predetermined way.

TCC (Time Can Change):

Also known as HCC (History Can Change). TCCers believe that the Lost characters will succeed in changing the future and that a new alternate reality will be spawned in which flight 815 does not crash.

Daniel Faraday, Jack & Kate support the TCCers.

If the TCCers win their enemies will be destroyed in a manner of their own choosing.

Neutral/Indifferent:

This group doesn't care at all and are just waiting to see what happens. Some people in this group are tired of time travel while others love it but have no strong preference about the outcome. Technically people in this group are WHHers or more appropriately they think What Will Be, Will Be (WWBWB).

que sera, sera. Juliet & Vincent support the WWBWBers?

People in this group will either die in a manner of their choosing or in some predetermined way.

[Mr. J]

Im going with what happened happened.:D

[Epy]

I went with neutral/indifferent, as I believe both are probably true.

[Pung]

WHHers Unite!!!

[VeraLynn]

Easy one. "I didn't blink" ;)

Baxter - Nice new avatar.

[chester]

WHHers Unite!!!

Boo, to the Fatalists!!

Fight for free will!!!

[tpbaxter]

Sayid and Faraday fought for free will. look what happened to them.

[Pung]

Boo, to the Fatalists!!

Fight for free will!!!

WHHers: "Rabble!"
TCCers: "Rabble!"

[Pung]

Sayid and Faraday fought for free will. look what happened to them.

Oh Snap!

You can put that in the General Discussion thread as things you shouldnt be able to say.

[chester]

Sayid and Faraday fought for free will. look what happened to them.

Yeah, they'll be back. Even bigger and stronger than before :D

[tpbaxter]

I knew this would happen by the way. :)

FYI: Chester will say this next:

"Have you seen it happen already? Can you let me know? I want to try to change it. What did I say next?"

[ortrules]

Faraday fought for free will. look what happened to them.

Yea, but at least now Dan doesn't have to have this same conversation over and over again.

[chester]

I knew this would happen by the way. :)

FYI: Chester will say this next:

"Have you seen it happen already? Can you let me know? I want to try to change it. What did I say next?"


As you can see, I am not saying that next anymore. I once did. But not any more. I've used my free will, perhaps while being partially manipulated by tpbaxter (meaning that he saw that I could 'prove' my point, and accurately predicted I would do so, but of course not knowing exactly what I would do), and came 'back in time' to change it. To this.l

http://whitneymcd7.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/lunar-eclipse.jpg

[wiley]

WHH I have proof and I keep checking to make sure. Every time I Re-watch an episode nothing has changed and the recordings haven't gone blank or anything.

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

The correct response to put here is "WHH"

Why?

- if WHH is true, then you got it right.
- if HCC is true, then you can always go back and fix your answer the next iteration. :D

[chester]

WHH I have proof and I keep checking to make sure. Every time I Re-watch an episode nothing has changed and the recordings haven't gone blank or anything.

They've already, mostly, been changed. We've seen most of the changes happen already. We're just not aware of it yet. What we have seen is not as straight forward as it seems. As crooked as that is. 'Expose', I think, might be like a 'keyword' to help cracking the code of LOST.

[wiley]

They've already, mostly, been changed. We've seen most of the changes happen already. We're just not aware of it yet. What we have seen is not as straight forward as it seems. As crooked as that is. 'Expose', I think, might be like a 'keyword' to help cracking the code of LOST.

LOL ok so maybe proof is a strong word (but I love using it here). I won't be able to prove it until I see your copies and compare them to mine and then to maybe 3 other sources just to sure.:)

[New Age Messiah]

What happened can unhappen.

WHCU

[chester]

LOL ok so maybe proof is a strong word (but I love using it here). I won't be able to prove it until I see your copies and compare them to mine and then to maybe 3 other sources just to sure.:)

LOL. Yeah I know, Islander has called it. WHH is the answer till near the end. I'm just offering some lubicant for the impending mindf*k, that's fast approaching.

[tpbaxter]

I knew this would happen by the way. :)

FYI: Chester will say this next:

"Have you seen it happen already? Can you let me know? I want to try to change it. What did I say next?"

Chester, do you see what I did here? WHH.

* waits for Chester's response disproving WHAH *

[chester]

Chester, do you see what I did here? WHH.

* waits for Chester's response disproving WHAH *

But that's different to what I said before. Now.

[wiley]

Ok here is the simplest way I can think of it.
If TCC then all memory of anything else will be overwritten with changed info.
Therefore WHH.

[ortrules]

I'm just offering some lubicant for the impending mindf*k, that's fast approaching.

I don't think I want to watch Lost anymore - this sounds like much more than just a mindf*k.

[tpbaxter]

But that's different to what I said before. Now.

I don't understand what you mean. I have completely proven WHH. You could go back and edit your post, disproving WHAH, but WHH.

[chester]

I don't think I want to watch Lost anymore - this sounds like much more than just a mindf*k.

Ahh, it might hurt at first.....but you'll start enjoying it soon enough :D

[linuxit]

WHH and TCC.

WHH because the Others built the runway that flight 316 landed on. They knew the plane was coming.

TCC because the Others built the runway that flight 316 landed on. They prevented the plane from crashing and probably saved Ben's life.

[chester]

I don't understand what you mean. I have completely proven WHH. You could go back and edit your post, disproving WHAH, but WHH.

But what you said I would say next, I didn't say next anymore. I went back, used my free will, and changed it. I have completely proven you can change the past. Oh wait, so WHH now means you can change the past?

[tpbaxter]

WHH and TCC.

WHH because the Others built the runway that flight 316 landed on. They knew the plane was coming.

TCC because the Others built the runway that flight 316 landed on. They prevented the plane from crashing and probably saved Ben's life.

We have never seen a time when that runway wasn't built, so nothing has changed. It was always the case that they built that runway and 316 landed on it.

Now we can keep debating this endlessly, or we can settle this through violence. I vote for violence. War!

[chester]

A time war.

Where information is "the bomb".

[tpbaxter]

I knew this would happen by the way. :)

FYI: Chester will say this next:

"Have you seen it happen already? Can you let me know? I want to try to change it. What did I say next?"

Now I've come back in time and changed what I said?

But what you said I would say next, I didn't say next anymore. I went back, used my free will, and changed it. I have completely proven you can change the past. Oh wait, so WHH now means you can change the past?

no. i correctly said what you would say next by going back and editing my original post after seeing what you said; therefore WHH.

then you went back and changed what you said, disproving WHAH but not WHH.

therefore WHAH is false but WHH is true

[chester]

no. i correctly said what you would say next by going back and editing my original post after seeing what you said; therefore WHH.

then you went back and changed what you said, disproving WHAH but not WHH.

therefore WHAH is false but WHH is true

So what's the catch?

[tpbaxter]

So what's the catch?

no catch. that's all i have.

[wiley]

If TCC were true then I wouldn't have to leave these forums today. Since I live on the west coast (about a mile from abc/disney studios by the way) I won't be able to watch the episode for about 7 more hours. But since WHH is true and if I stay here I will get spoiler info before I can watch it, and I won't be able to change that because WHH.;)

[tpbaxter]

Chester, do you see what I did here? WHH.

* waits for Chester's response disproving WHAH *

BUT did you notice that I also correctly predicted that you would go back in time and change your previous comments? I knew you would and I almost manipulated you into it.

Did you exercise your free will when you went back and changed that comment or were you just doing what Destiny/God/gods wanted you to?

[chester]

BUT did you notice that I also correctly predicted that you would go back in time and change your previous comments? I knew you would and I almost manipulated you into it.

Did you exercise your free will when you went back and changed that comment or were you just doing what Destiny/God/gods wanted you to?

As far as I was concerned, I was using my free will. Even if that will was being manipulated by an evil genious intent on ruling the world, and even becoming a god?

[tpbaxter]

As far as I was concerned, I was using my free will. Even if that will was being manipulated by an evil genious intent on ruling the world, and even becoming a god?

BWAHAHAHA...

see this experiment proves my hypothesis about free will and WHH being logically possible. one's actions can be predicted if you know enough about the person. i knew you would not let me win and that you would want to go back in time and change your response. The real variables in this equation are environment, knowledge and stimuli as you said. I simply provided the stimuli. No paradox has occurred.

In this example you were like Jack, Chester. Jack has ignored certain evidence and has persisted with trying to impose his will in order to maintain an illusion of control. Like you. You do not want to believe you do not have free will and refuse to accept that some things are out of your control. And because of Jack's stubbornness and ignorance, his actions are predictable and he will ultimately cause WHH or at the least fail to prevent it. Like you.

We know this because we have already seen the future. It WILL happen, and always will happen, not despite Jack's free will, but because of it.

[chester]

I still changed the past

[tpbaxter]

I still changed the past

I'm not sure how far we can take this example, but technically I think you didn't. Go back and unless you edit it again, it says what you said. I guess this still disproves WHAH but not WHH.

[islander]

Chester, we may be outnumbered, but they are overconfident....we've got them right where we want them.

[chester]

Chester, we may be outnumbered, but they are overconfident....we've got them right where we want them.

Yeah, I know. The good guys always win, right? Are you an advocate of free-will too, Islander?

[tpbaxter]

Yeah, I know. The good guys always win, right? Are you an advocate of free-will too, Islander?

wait, I thought we were the good guys? I almost hope you guys are right. you are the underdog at this point.

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to talk about the current episode right now here, but if things keep on their current path I'm not sure I want the past to happen as it seems like it will/did anyway.

[islander]

Yeah, I know. The good guys always win, right? Are you an advocate of free-will too, Islander?

I wouldn't be watching right now if I didn't believe they are able to exercise their free will.

Take heart, considering how this show is famous for twists and turns, the mere fact that 50% more people believe WHH, pretty much proves TCC. :D

[Richard_Cranium]

wait, I thought we were the good guys? I almost hope you guys are right. you are the underdog at this point.

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to talk about the current episode right now here, but if things keep on their current path I'm not sure I want the past to happen as it seems like it will/did anyway.

oh please talk about the current episode here I am looking for info.

[SkippingInTime]

Im pretty sure this season we are seeing it as WHH, but I'm not fully convinced that it can't be changed.

Maybe there are ways to change time and we may find out about it in the next season. Did anyone see that quick blurb, btw? Sounded like Sawer saying, "Just because you've seen it doesn't mean it has to be that way."

But in order for the survivors to change time, they would have to experience it first hand before they can make a change. I doubt no matter what, WHH can be erased fully from the people's conciousness. They would have to fully remember everything that happened and that would be the only way that they could change time. (and I'm not yet sure if time could be changed if it will be any "better" than WHH. That may be something they will find out if that is true.)

So I guess I'm kind of leaning TCC, but I don't discount some of the WHH theories.

[tpbaxter]

I wouldn't be watching right now if I didn't believe they are able to exercise their free will.

Take heart, considering how this show is famous for twists and turns, the mere fact that 50% more people believe WHH, pretty much proves TCC. :D

argh! some of us keep saying that WHH doesn't mean they are not exercising their free will!

[tpbaxter]

I wouldn't be watching right now if I didn't believe they are able to exercise their free will.

Take heart, considering how this show is famous for twists and turns, the mere fact that 50% more people believe WHH, pretty much proves TCC. :D

by the way, well sorry if you haven't watched the episode then stop reading



now


i think the incident still needs to happen and flight 815 needs to crash, but I'm hoping Richard was wrong. This show will suck if we have to watch while knowing all the main characters are going to die with no hope of them achieving victory.

eh, i am supposed to put aside my bias right?

[linuxit]

They can appear to die in 1977, but still be alive in 2007.

[NoData]

They've already, mostly, been changed. We've seen most of the changes happen already. We're just not aware of it yet. What we have seen is not as straight forward as it seems. As crooked as that is. 'Expose', I think, might be like a 'keyword' to help cracking the code of LOST.That would be awesome, if the whole meaning of Lost is hidden within what has been seen as the throwaway 'Expose' episode. I love it!

[NoData]

BWAHAHAHA...

see this experiment proves my hypothesis about free will and WHH being logically possible. one's actions can be predicted if you know enough about the person. i knew you would not let me win and that you would want to go back in time and change your response. The real variables in this equation are environment, knowledge and stimuli as you said. I simply provided the stimuli. No paradox has occurred.

In this example you were like Jack, Chester. Jack has ignored certain evidence and has persisted with trying to impose his will in order to maintain an illusion of control. Like you. You do not want to believe you do not have free will and refuse to accept that some things are out of your control. And because of Jack's stubbornness and ignorance, his actions are predictable and he will ultimately cause WHH or at the least fail to prevent it. Like you.

We know this because we have already seen the future. It WILL happen, and always will happen, not despite Jack's free will, but because of it.I still changed the pastOh snap! TP comes out with a combination that has Chester on the ropes! Chester swings... and misses! He's down for the count! And the crowd goes wild!!!

lol You guys should look up Derren Brown; he's a master at manipulating people's free will. Check out this youtube video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyQjr1YL0zg

He influences two guys who work in the advertising industry to create almost exactly the same ad that he wants them to, and he does it all subliminally. They think the ad is their idea! And I guess technically it is.

[chester]

by the way, well sorry if you haven't watched the episode then stop reading



now


i think the incident still needs to happen and flight 815 needs to crash, but I'm hoping Richard was wrong. This show will suck if we have to watch while knowing all the main characters are going to die with no hope of them achieving victory.

eh, i am supposed to put aside my bias right?

Yes, Bax. Your allowed to change your mind. Everyone will believe eventually. ;):D

[chester]

Oh snap! TP comes out with a combination that has Chester on the ropes! Chester swings... and misses! He's down for the count! And the crowd goes wild!!!

lol You guys should look up Derren Brown; he's a master at manipulating people's free will. Check out this youtube video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyQjr1YL0zg

He influences two guys who work in the advertising industry to create almost exactly the same ad that he wants them to, and he does it all subliminally. They think the ad is their idea! And I guess technically it is.

Yeah, one of my faves.

Don't worry, No, your allowed to change your mind too. Any time.
And I'm feeling fresh as a daisy after having one of the "enemies" 'prove' my point with me. And thinking it was all due to Bax's manipulations is a delusion I was quite happy to play along with. Because having ones free-will manipulated is another one of my points in what I think is happening in LOST. It just goes to 'prove' it further. These are good times :D

Oooh, and now, going back in time again. I think Derren is an excellent example. It shows you don't even need to have the free-willed person, who is traveling back in time, to have personal knowledge of the event that is under consideration of change. It only requires that that person is under the influence of someone who does 'have' that knowledge....

[Nemesis Prime]

BWAHAHAHA...
We know this because we have already seen the future. It WILL happen, and always will happen, not despite Jack's free will, but because of it.


I agree, this is pretty much the outlook I've had for a while now too. We have been watching everyone on the show exercise their free will this whole time. It just so happens that it's their choices that cause everything to happen the way it did in the first place.