So, I can Kill Him

[Newbie]

Locke is meant to KILL jacob....WOW...WHY??

[Jaystar™]

Maybe this goes back to when Jacob told Locke to help him?

[Ghee]

Now I am confused. Locke said the island told him when to show up at the plane. But, now he is supposed to kill Jacob. I thought the island and Jacob were of one mind.

[LOSTLOST]

yes, mayb jacob needs Locke to kill him so he could be resurected like Locke was. Idk why else

[LostandAlone]

wow! John seems very sure of himself! Who the hell is Jacob? Is he really a live human being? If so, where does he get his food and necessities if he has no contact with his "people"? What a mystery!

[Newbie]

Maybe this goes back to when Jacob told Locke to help him?

Yes. Jacob must die..Why? He is trapped and wants to go to the afterlife?

Now I am confused. Locke said the island told him when to show up at the plane. But, now he is supposed to kill Jacob. I thought the island and Jacob were of one mind.

The island and jacob MUST be different....Just WOW...WOW

[Ghee]

I am dying to know the connection/relationship between Jacob and Richard.

[tpbaxter]

Now I am confused. Locke said the island told him when to show up at the plane. But, now he is supposed to kill Jacob. I thought the island and Jacob were of one mind.

yeah, apparently not? :confused:

[BomberDawg95]

Yes. Jacob must die..Why? He is trapped and wants to go to the afterlife?



The island and jacob MUST be different....Just WOW...WOW

Is it possible John got his orders from the Island? That Jacob had supplemented the Island, and Locke gave the Island the one thing it needed. Ben & Richard felt John was returning on Jacob's side, but he's returning on the Island's side?

Good Lord season 6 is gonna be CRAZY!

[weldonryckman]

hmmmm, maybe he plans on killing christian? although christian is only the voice of jacob. I wonder what ben plans on accomplishing by double crossing both richard and john..... It seems obvious to me that the Island told him to kill jacob. I see no other motivation for john to do it

[LOSTLOST]

From the way John was talking about Jacob, notg being real and all, it reminded me of an old Twilight Zone episode titled, "The old man in the cave"- the episode is about a group of nuclear war survivors who take orders from "an old man in a cave" nobody in the group ever actually sees a man (just like the others) and only the groups leader can go to see him (Locke, Ben, Richard, who ever is the leader) in the end some get second thoughts and the whole group goes to the cave and find out the man was a machine/computer.

It is really similar to what is happening, check it out

[rock-lobster]

maybe jacob is the mastermind of the island's (or maybe even the world's?) course correction system? if so, killing jacob would allow course correction to be thrown out the window for jack and co to do their thing on the h-bomb so that everybody lives happily ever after (not you kate, you get to go to jail).

doubtful but possible. :)

[notsolost42]

Time IS the essence......Jacob is Jacob.....John Locke is evil.......Ben is good!

[Unbridled Pageantry]

Yes. Jacob must die..Why? He is trapped and wants to go to the afterlife?

That's probably the best theory; but we've seen that Jacob can be invisible and control the movement of objects, and pretty much freak people out. So can he go to the afterlife or is he already there.
Maybe because Locke is dead he's on equal ground with Jacob; and a dead guy killing a dead guy brings that dead guy back to life.
I don't know.

[hutsunuwu84]

I am dying to know the connection/relationship between Jacob and Richard.

I believe that what Locke is saying is that Richard is Jacob so to speak. Not that I think they are the same person but Locke was almost hinting at the possibility that Jacob doesnt exist so either Jacob is a fake constructed by Richard or Jacob is real but maybe controlled by Richard told what to say and basically Richards pawn

[islander]

Is it possible John got his orders from the Island? That Jacob had supplemented the Island, and Locke gave the Island the one thing it needed. Ben & Richard felt John was returning on Jacob's side, but he's returning on the Island's side?

Good Lord season 6 is gonna be CRAZY!

That is very close to what I was thinking. Locke is with the island and Jacob is not. Jacob needed Locke on his side to oppose the island when he said "Help Me", but Locke is having none of that.

So is the war Widmore mentioned the island vs Jacob?

[delfrio]

Sounds to me like Richard and Ben have been keeping Jacob prisoner, and now he wants to die to be released.

But the real question is -- why would John tell Ben that? Maybe he is just playing with him.

[LostandAlone]

From the way John was talking about Jacob, notg being real and all, it reminded me of an old Twilight Zone episode titled, "The old man in the cave"- the episode is about a group of nuclear war survivors who take orders from "an old man in a cave" nobody in the group ever actually sees a man (just like the others) and only the groups leader can go to see him (Locke, Ben, Richard, who ever is the leader) in the end some get second thoughts and the whole group goes to the cave and find out the man was a machine/computer.

It is really similar to what is happening, check it out
well that's also like the Wizard of Oz - everyone was so afraid of this great wizard - then what was he? not what everyone imagined!Maybe Jacob is like the Wizard.

[hutsunuwu84]

Also consider that Jacob could actually be somebody like Hugo or Jack even someone like Chang. We dont know for sure when Jacob came to be so we could assume that Jacob is any one of the guys in 1977

I think that might be a stretch but im not willing to discount it either

[hyperchord24]

Sounds to me like Richard and Ben have been keeping Jacob prisoner, and now he wants to die to be released.

But the real question is -- why would John tell Ben that? Maybe he is just playing with him.
Or relying on the fact that the island threatened to destroy Ben, so Ben won't get in the way of Locke.

[weldonryckman]

We can pretty much assume Jacob was present in 1954 because John mentioned Jacob and Richard had a surprised reaction. And Richard said, 'We all answer to somebody' or something

[delfrio]

Or relying on the fact that the island threatened to destroy Ben, so Ben won't get in the way of Locke.

John supposedly doesn't know about that. Unless the island whispered it to him sometime we didn't see.

[hutsunuwu84]

We can pretty much assume Jacob was present in 1954 because John mentioned Jacob and Richard had a surprised reaction. And Richard said, 'We all answer to somebody' or something

touche
forgot about that

[LOSTLOST]

Im still thinking that Richard and Jacob are brothers. or Richard is his son, some type of relation.

[perso3]

hmm interesting

[LostFreak21]

What happens if "John" really isn't our John? When they put Christian's shoes on him maybe he was brought back to life as someone else in John's body? Who said to John tonight you seem different?

[delfrio]

Im still thinking that Richard and Jacob are brothers. or Richard is his son, some type of relation.

I think Richard was Jacob's second-in-command, and they were both part of an ancient Egyptian army. However, either Richard is loyal and sticking by Jacob after something happened to him, or Richard was a traitor who trapped Jacob.

[Professor Faulken]

good point, maybe Locke isn't actually Locke in spirit. and maybe Christian isnt actually Christian. after all, Dead is Dead.

and i have a hunch that Jacob is a imaginary creation of Richard to control the others, thus him being nervous about this pilgrimage to produce a being that doesn't even exist.

[LostFreak21]

Ya, seems like there's something fishy going on here with the Lockeman. He says he has a purpose. The Island talks to him and he is setting this up and lying to Sun.

[hyperchord24]

I too am getting a real "Wizard of Oz" feel to this Jacob character. I'm reminded of Lord of the Flies. Now in that story a bunch of kids were stranded on a deserted island and though they tried to have some sort of order, they all ended up trying to kill each other. These Others are in a sort of similar situation, though I'm sure they're only "stranded" by choice. They have a very elaborate leadership structure -- that we do know. And I think it's to prevent the same sort of mutiny within the Others. Though really, every society needs a reason to keep order, a deterent. And that's what religion is for. There's always been religion to keep people in line. People want to go to heaven so they behave. Maybe this Jacob is a fabrication of Richard's to keep people in line. "Be good and don't challenge authority or Jacob will get you!" springs to mind. There are a lot of parallels from Jacob to God in this episode. Like if a child asks his parents "where's God? I want to ask him for a bike." What does the parent say? "It doesn't work like that," just like Ben said.

Of course, if he were made up, then why would the island tell Locke to kill him? Just to mess with Ben's head? And why didn't Richard just pull Locke aside and explain the whole Jacob thing if he really didn't exist? And Locke can't be the only one to have questions about Jacob? Widmore and Hawking were far more pushy than Locke, so I find it hard to believe they didn't have the same questions.

[sirchin]

I was thinking Locke is Jacob, caught in some kind of time loop, or something that's why he can't be seen or heard clearly because he's drifting back and forth constantly between different times or dimensions. In other words John going to kill himself. This effect I am theorizing could also explain why John couldn't die. I also believe we now know Richard is also evil like Ben, just duping the others. I don't think he and Ben even know who or what Jacob is. But I think Locke does.

[LostFreak21]

But John heard Jacob in the cabin and I think Ben was suprised.

[Hurley eats the baby]

Gosh, I am so confused. But I am loving it - another great episode. I can't wait for the finale!

[MagicoA]

Maybe this goes back to when Jacob told Locke to help him?
my thoughts exactly,well like 5minutes after the show i get all into the what then mouth open moment b4...LOST
Now I am confused. Locke said the island told him when to show up at the plane. But, now he is supposed to kill Jacob. I thought the island and Jacob were of one mind.
like said above maybe it is and thats how he'll help jacob as he said in the man behind the curtin: "help me!"
From the way John was talking about Jacob, notg being real and all, it reminded me of an old Twilight Zone episode titled, "The old man in the cave"- the episode is about a group of nuclear war survivors who take orders from "an old man in a cave" nobody in the group ever actually sees a man (just like the others) and only the groups leader can go to see him (Locke, Ben, Richard, who ever is the leader) in the end some get second thoughts and the whole group goes to the cave and find out the man was a machine/computer.

It is really similar to what is happening, check it out
yeah suprisingly(cuz i only saw like a dozen twilight zones) i remember that and ur right also its simaler the wizard of OZ
maybe jacob is the mastermind of the island's (or maybe even the world's?) course correction system? if so, killing jacob would allow course correction to be thrown out the window for jack and co to do their thing on the h-bomb so that everybody lives happily ever after (not you kate, you get to go to jail).

doubtful but possible. :)
well i feel it either cuases a parodox(yet the writers promised not to)or they all die(which they cant...yet)

That's probably the best theory; but we've seen that Jacob can be invisible and control the movement of objects, and pretty much freak people out. So can he go to the afterlife or is he already there.
Maybe because Locke is dead he's on equal ground with Jacob; and a dead guy killing a dead guy brings that dead guy back to life.
I don't know.
or maybe a "dead guy" killing a "dead guy" kills him 4 good

[LOSTLOST]

I was thinking Locke is Jacob, caught in some kind of time loop, or something that's why he can't be seen or heard clearly because he's drifting back and forth constantly between different times or dimensions. In other words John going to kill himself. This effect I am theorizing could also explain why John couldn't die. I also believe we now know Richard is also evil like Ben, just duping the others. I don't think he and Ben even know who or what Jacob is. But I think Locke does.

No i think Richard knows, i think he is the only one who actually really knows as of right now, but we will see what happens

[LostFreak21]

Why would Ben bring John back unless he knew he was going to do what he is going to do. Ben didn't have to tell John what Richard said.

[scottie D]

Thankfully this thread has people seeing clear. This is not Locke folks. This is evil incarnated. Throw WHH out the window because Locke wants to prove that all too well. The island, I think, is talking to John, and the island is evil

[islander]

At least we can put that "Vincent is Jacob" theory to bed. PETA would be all over TPTB if they even joked about killing a dog on this show.

[LostFreak21]

Unless we hear barking in the distance next week!

[Gonnequip23]

well that's also like the Wizard of Oz - everyone was so afraid of this great wizard - then what was he? not what everyone imagined!Maybe Jacob is like the Wizard.

Remember Season 3 - The Man Behind the Curtain? The Ben-centric episode? Well everyone assumed this title was referring to Ben, but this is also the first episode that John goes to see Jacob. So Jacob could be the man behind the curtain.

I cannot make up my mind as to whether John is killing Jacob to "free" him or because he's angry at him.

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

Yes. Jacob must die..Why? He is trapped and wants to go to the afterlife?



The island and jacob MUST be different....Just WOW...WOW

Ok, I don't even know who I really want to quote here (heehee) but to throw in this thought as well...... There was SOME reason Ben spoke both reverently and condescending to Jacob that time in the cabin... and Jacob's saying "Help meeee" to John.... I believe it has something to do with that ring of ashes surrounding the cabin. Ashes are generally to keep evil either in or out, one or the other.....
And I DO believe Ben is a good guy.... just putting more pieces of the puzzle together...... I think Jacob desperately wants John to "free him" ... but John has a plan to kill him????? WHAT?????

[coldandevell]

It is possible that John was playing a Ben game with Ben and just saying that to freak Ben out. Perhaps John knew Ben was playing his both sides against the middle game and John was playing at him back.

[LostFreak21]

Tell John to get those damn shoes off! That is why Eloise wanted Jack to recreate as best as possible the man in the casket-Christian. I don't want John to be bad. If it is John aaaahhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!

[sirchin]

Ok, I don't even know who I really want to quote here (heehee) but to throw in this thought as well...... There was SOME reason Ben spoke both reverently and condescending to Jacob that time in the cabin... and Jacob's saying "Help meeee" to John.... I believe it has something to do with that ring of ashes surrounding the cabin. Ashes are generally to keep evil either in or out, one or the other.....
And I DO believe Ben is a good guy.... just putting more pieces of the puzzle together...... I think Jacob desperately wants John to "free him" ... but John has a plan to kill him????? WHAT?????

I think killing him is the only way to set him free, that's another reason I think John may be Jacob. He knows he should be dead but isn't because a piece of him is still drifting through time in that cabin trapped. He want's to finish the job Ben started.

[LostFreak21]

I was wondering when John and Ben paddled the canoe to the other place, John had his shoes off and put them on when he was on the dock. Thought that was strange like he didn't want them to get wet.

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

I think killing him is the only way to set him free, that's another reason I think John may be Jacob. He knows he should be dead but isn't because a piece of him is still drifting through time in that cabin trapped. He want's to finish the job Ben started.

Interesting, Sirchie....

[LOSTLOST]

I was wondering when John and Ben paddled the canoe to the other place, John had his shoes off and put them on when he was on the dock. Thought that was strange like he didn't want them to get wet.

that really interesting, mayb the shoes, is what gives him the knowledge of the island

[coldandevell]

To quote Cinderella " the right shoes can change your life" :)

[LostFreak21]

If the shoe fits...

[R070V470R]

shoes too!
yet another wizard of oz connection.

[LostFreak21]

So, do you think the guy in the red shoes has more meaning then what we thought?

[sirchin]

So, do you think the guy in the red shoes has more meaning then what we thought?

The Ruby slippers!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[LostFreak21]

It goes back to The Man Behind The Curtain.
Good Witch, Bad Witch.
If I only had a brain...

[imascootinspook]

When did the island tell Locke? When he went MIA at the old DI camp? In the future, which we haven't seen yet? Sometimes, like with this episode, I have a hard time convincing myself that our losties were not already in a time loop prior to season 1 episode 1.

[LostFreak21]

Maybe when he was dead the Island told him.

[Baibe]

Maybe right after it told him how to take Ben to smokie... when he appeared from the woods

[InTheBeginning]

Anyone else notice how John spoke of himself in the third person? When he, Ben and Richard were in the jungle at the Beechcraft. John said something along the lines of, "a man will come out of the jungle...yada yada yada..."

That's not our John anymore!

[LOSTLOST]

Anyone else notice how John spoke of himself in the third person? When he, Ben and Richard were in the jungle at the Beechcraft. John said something along the lines of, "a man will come out of the jungle...yada yada yada..."

That's not our John anymore!

yea i thought that was kinda strange. Why couldnt he just say it was himself right from the beginning

[Newbie]

Anyone else notice how John spoke of himself in the third person? When he, Ben and Richard were in the jungle at the Beechcraft. John said something along the lines of, "a man will come out of the jungle...yada yada yada..."

That's not our John anymore!

(nice avatar..season ender..fork in socket)
ben asked.. "whose that man" and Locke answered " its ME" not in third person?

[Archangel-Player]

Smokie told Ben to folow John Locke no questions asked or it would destroy him. So apparantly Smokie agrees with John`s motives. Smokie seems to be A God or leader to the others. It was Smokie whom Richard brought Ben to be heald. Perhaps Ben did see Jacob and doesn`t remember because it was errased. Perhaps Smokie is Jacob and Locke must kill him. But why would Smokie help John if he was to kill him or why would Jacob call out to Locke for help? If he knows everything. Surly he knows Locke want`s to kill him. I think Smokie is behind Locke wanting to kill Jacob. Smokie needs him out of the way.

[Newbie]

Maybe when he was dead the Island told him.

maybe "this place is Death"? everyone is meant to die? Dieing is the only way to see the light, path...such as locke. But No one wants to die
Richard did say.." I watch them all die"

[imascootinspook]

After remembering The Man From Tallahassee....I wonder if Locke talks Ben into killing Jacob, or try to. Granted Locke is a different person now, but I think Locke may put Ben up to do the task and not himself.

[InTheBeginning]

(nice avatar..season ender..fork in socket)
ben asked.. "whose that man" and Locke answered " its ME" not in third person?

OK, I'll give you that one. Up until then, it seemed wierd.

[thebecoming]

The change in Locke is peculiar, and the imagery of this episode is telling. Locke has shown himself throughout Lost to be becoming a man of faith, of purpose. He believed things when others wouldn't, or couldn't. He tried to get Jack to believe him when he told him to stay on the Island in season 4. He tried to get others to come back to the island, and had faith that a strange island man (Richard) was telling the truth when he said Locke had to die for his purpose to be fulfilled! This is a place of miracles, says Locke, and he believes them even without wondering about the cause of them. That is the essence of faith.

And yet...

Here Locke is, giving this inspired speech to his people about how they have never seen Jacob before, and how they shouldn't blindly follow his orders! He's lecturing them for having faith in a leader that they've never seen. He leads them out of the darkness and uncertainty of the night into the bright daylight sun, toward knowledge, toward an understanding of Jacob and to an understanding of the island's miracles? Wha?

Isn't this the opposite of faith? Instead of trusting and believing in the miracles of the island and having faith in your leader, to instead demand knowledge and question his actions? This is a bold move for a man of faith!

Could it be that he is trying to expose Jacob as some sort of false prophet or idol to the Others, so that they can again have faith in the spirit of the One True Island?

[boutte]

I was thinking Locke is Jacob, caught in some kind of time loop, or something that's why he can't be seen or heard clearly because he's drifting back and forth constantly between different times or dimensions. In other words John going to kill himself. This effect I am theorizing could also explain why John couldn't die. I also believe we now know Richard is also evil like Ben, just duping the others. I don't think he and Ben even know who or what Jacob is. But I think Locke does.

I was about to post the same thing. It'll be interesting to see how the smoke monster ties in to all of this. Remember that Smokey put the fear of god into Ben which is why Ben is now following Locke like a little puppy dog. (For the time being.) If the Smokey is ok with Locke killing Jacob it must be for the benefit of the Island.

[Nemesis Prime]

Could it be that he is trying to expose Jacob as some sort of false prophet or idol to the Others, so that they can again have faith in the spirit of the One True Island?


I think it's pretty safe to say that Jacob and the Island are two separate entities. Since it's the Island that John seems to be following now and we know that it's the Islands properties that cause all of our strange happenings, I'm leaning on the side that John is right in what he's doing. If the Island really want's Jacob dead then it has to be the right move.

On the subject of Ben, I think he really is going to have John's back. At least for a while anyway. As much as he may hate it i think he took what smokie said to him to heart and will follow through with it. I think this is why we were showed his little talk with Richard. I think the only reason for that was so that he could tell John what was said. Maybe Ben knows of a reason why John should be more weary of Richard.

[Jeremy]

For now I'm going to go with the idea that Jacob and the smoke monster are against each other, possibly fighting over the island. Locke may not necessarily be possesed, but perhaps the monster is giving him more "dreams" and he thinks that it is what the island itself wants.

Kind of reminds me of how, in Okami, Orochi(the evil eight headed dragon) appeared in Susano's(decendant of the hero who sealed Orochi away) dreams and tricked him into releasing itself. Of course by the end of the story, Susano redeems himself and helps Okami kill Orochi. I'm hoping it'll be the same for Locke, if these stories have any similarities as well.

[abcd1234]

6am and this thread has been viewed 3000 times.

I think this line was put in to make you forget everything else you saw this episode. I also think locke is lying to Ben for kicks. I think locke thinks jacob is a trick and isnt real, and is trying to get ben in a corner. even though he is undead and newly confident, he is still a dumbass and wont listen to anyone, even for 5 minutes.

aside from that, how likely is it that locke is going to kill jacob (if he exists)?

[LostFreak21]

It's as if John is going to expose some one. He is having all the people come with him so there won't be any questions to what went on.

[valkirk]

Of course, if he were made up, then why would the island tell Locke to kill him? Just to mess with Ben's head? And why didn't Richard just pull Locke aside and explain the whole Jacob thing if he really didn't exist? And Locke can't be the only one to have questions about Jacob? Widmore and Hawking were far more pushy than Locke, so I find it hard to believe they didn't have the same questions.

Isn't "destroying the myth" of Jacob the same as killing him?

As others have said, I wonder if Jacob = Richard. Richard was really trying to talk to Locke in his tent before Locke started his speech.

[hpbatman7]

I have been mulling over last night's episode all morning now....one thing is for certain, this is NOT the Locke we are used to seeing.....he has definately been changed, not sure if he's "good" or "bad" now....which at this point I think good or bad has lost all meaning, (no pun).....

I am not sure why Locke told Ben, and I had begun to suspect for a while now that Jacob was a red herring....but now....you can't kill someone or something that isn't real.....but then maybe that's the point, maybe Locke is going to kill the illusion of Jacob the illusion that there is someone above Richard who is pulling the strings...

I mean did you see how shocked both Ben and Richard were when Ben said that he wanted to see Jacob? I mean they were taken by surprise for sure and what was with that comment that Richard made to Ben that "it looks like John Locke is starting to become a problem?".....

So many questions.....and the previews were def light on next week....oh man....I don't know where this is all going but I sure as hell am enjoying the ride....

[valkirk]

Why would Ben bring John back unless he knew he was going to do what he is going to do. Ben didn't have to tell John what Richard said.
You actaully believe that Ben was telling the truth? Isn't it the old Ben trick of making people think that he is on their side?

[ortrules]

Jacob does exist, this is certain. We've seen him before - albeit for just brief moments. We've seen his eye and we saw him in the rocking chair when Ben and Locke first went to see him.

I personally think it's a ruse that Locke is putting on to test the loyalty of Ben, Richard, and the Others.

[Chelebella]

I think Smokie is behind Locke wanting to kill Jacob. Smokie needs him out of the way.

It makes sense. In most story plots, there is good and there is bad (evil). So much of LOST has to do with human nature and our ability to change ourselves, our future and our default settings. In other words, much of LOST is about redemption and that battle within all of us - do we do the right thing, the good thing, or the thing that may be "bad" for us or those around us? Once we do bad things, does that make us bad? Can we change? If you knew then what you know now...would you try to change things?

Once the dust and mystery settles in the story of LOST, a figurehead for GOOD and one for BAD must emerge. I think these figureheads will be both spiritual (ie Smokie, "Jacob", the Island in all its manifestations) and human (Widmore, Locke, Ben, Hanso, etc.).

Clearly, Smokie wanted Ben to listen to John, and John says he must kill Jacob. If he is telling the truth and not just pulling Ben's chain, then he is doing Smokie's bidding.

Who is good? Who is evil? Time will tell, but I can't help but get the feeling that Locke is merely someone's pawn in a much larger game. I can't help but reflect on how easily he is manipulated. His change of personality is weird too. The scene that struck me the most last night was the one where he was questioning Jacob's existence, based on the fact that no one can see him. Pretty odd for the "man of faith", who up until recently believed in God (another figure many believe in though they have never seen him/her/it). Remember how hard he fought Jack about leaps of faith?

[LostFreak21]

In a way Ben is always telling the truth he just manipulates people with it.

[abcd1234]

i think locke was lying to ben. this was probably to shock ben and get him off track so he couldnt scheme up something else. and to throw us off, making us think about the wrong thing.

REMEMBER THIS locke asked richard how he knew he'd been shot, and richard said 'you told me'. I mean, I feel pretty dumb for totally forgetting that whole conversation.

[audienceofone]

I think John is lying to Ben to goad Ben into doing something that will cause Ben to be eliminated. John would never confide anything to Ben.

OR

Ben is Jacob...now that would be an interesting twist.

OR

Richard is Jacob...???

[delfrio]

I agree John could be leading Ben on, but I also think that Jacob could really want to die. We have seen characters in movies who are trapped or being tortured that they sometimes ask others to kill them. This could be behind Jacob's "Help me." Richard and Ben could have Jacob trapped or they are just conveniently using him as a way to keep the Others in line.

[losttime]

I am dying to know the connection/relationship between Jacob and Richard.

its RA's uncle.

[abcd1234]

its RA's uncle.

stop it.


anyway, if john really wants to kill jacob, it must be because the island wants him to. so why would the island want to kill jacob? is this what the war is about?

[2cansam]

Forever we have heard of this Jacob , but yet we never see him...How can you have a tv show where the ultimate charater of the story never appears? And what the heck is up with Richard ? His whole persona just got blown out of the water. His charter isn't even that great anymore. Can someone expalin the deal with Horace building Jacobs Cabin ? Will this come to light anytime soon?

[3d-aholic]

wow! John seems very sure of himself! Who the hell is Jacob? Is he really a live human being? If so, where does he get his food and necessities if he has no contact with his "people"? What a mystery!
Simple really...
Jacob is not a "person" or a "living being".

Its a computer, electronic device, or something that is ethereal.

[lynnhart]

Jacob does exist, this is certain. We've seen him before - albeit for just brief moments. We've seen his eye and we saw him in the rocking chair when Ben and Locke first went to see him.

I personally think it's a ruse that Locke is putting on to test the loyalty of Ben, Richard, and the Others.

Really, we've seen Jacob's eye? How/when? I must have missed this.

[jlazarus]

I remember thinking, when watching "The Man Behind the Curtain" that Ben is such a master manipulator. I mean, Locke doesn't believe Jacob exists in that episode - not until the cabin scene - and he actually accuses Ben of being the Man Behind the Curtain.

Ben later acts all upset (after he shoots Locke) upon hearing that Jacob supposedly told Locke "Help Me". But I think Ben was feigning being upset...I think Ben, all along, knows Jacob doesn't really exist, and the whole cabin thing may be an elaborate hoax - probably with Richard's assistance...Remember, Richard is an advisor of sorts...maybe the engineer behind the smoke and mirrors.....

So if Jacob is a hoax, what are Richard and Ben protecting? Just the fact that Jacob is a hoax, or something more?

[ortrules]

Really, we've seen Jacob's eye? How/when? I must have missed this.

When Hurley found the cabin. Christian was sitting in the rocking chair and an eye appeared in the hole Hurley was peering through. The producers confirmed that eye was Jacob.

[LOSTLOST]

I remember thinking, when watching "The Man Behind the Curtain" that Ben is such a master manipulator. I mean, Locke doesn't believe Jacob exists in that episode - not until the cabin scene - and he actually accuses Ben of being the Man Behind the Curtain.

Ben later acts all upset (after he shoots Locke) upon hearing that Jacob supposedly told Locke "Help Me". But I think Ben was feigning being upset...I think Ben, all along, knows Jacob doesn't really exist, and the whole cabin thing may be an elaborate hoax - probably with Richard's assistance...Remember, Richard is an advisor of sorts...maybe the engineer behind the smoke and mirrors.....

So if Jacob is a hoax, what are Richard and Ben protecting? Just the fact that Jacob is a hoax, or something more?

I definitly think that Jacob is more than just some old guy in a cabin. He will definitly have great importance

[Archangel-Player]

The change in Locke is peculiar, and the imagery of this episode is telling. Locke has shown himself throughout Lost to be becoming a man of faith, of purpose. He believed things when others wouldn't, or couldn't. He tried to get Jack to believe him when he told him to stay on the Island in season 4. He tried to get others to come back to the island, and had faith that a strange island man (Richard) was telling the truth when he said Locke had to die for his purpose to be fulfilled! This is a place of miracles, says Locke, and he believes them even without wondering about the cause of them. That is the essence of faith.

And yet...

Here Locke is, giving this inspired speech to his people about how they have never seen Jacob before, and how they shouldn't blindly follow his orders! He's lecturing them for having faith in a leader that they've never seen. He leads them out of the darkness and uncertainty of the night into the bright daylight sun, toward knowledge, toward an understanding of Jacob and to an understanding of the island's miracles? Wha?

Isn't this the opposite of faith? Instead of trusting and believing in the miracles of the island and having faith in your leader, to instead demand knowledge and question his actions? This is a bold move for a man of faith!

Could it be that he is trying to expose Jacob as some sort of false prophet or idol to the Others, so that they can again have faith in the spirit of the One True Island?

About Locke`s speach to his people. Where there are Good spirited leaders there is also evil spirted leaders. A evil spirited leader can do false mircles and tell lies that seem like the honust truth. That was what Locke was pointing out. Now that he was chosen as the leader and guided by the island. He is ready to expose the island`s truths and false. He is the savoir that is guiding them away from the dark rule of the false good leader. So to me he isn`t doubting his faith in the island. He is simply showing the Hostiles to have faith in the true good. Not Jacob. But the island.

[LostFreak21]

Just think ABC has a character in Jacob who they don't have to pay!

[Newbie]

Some state that Locke is listening to the island? I always considered the island and Jacob as one. But now we see that is not true...or is it? The writers themselves have stated the island is Only the place where these people are living on. If its a "place" then how does it speak to people

Lindelof quoted: "That's a very finite question. 'Who is Jacob?' OK, yes, we've been talking to this guy named Jacob, so those questions then should have answers, but 'What is the Island?' That starts to get into 'What is the Force?' (star wars)It is a PLACE. I can't explain to you why it moves through space-time, it just does. You have to accept the fact that it does." Can you live with that?"

[Damon Lindelof]

Jacob is a person, not some sort of machine.
Locke is going to kill him..to set him free.

[New Age Messiah]

Richard is a Pharaoh, Jacob is a deity over whom Richard has acquired power, by tricking him into revealing his name.

[Panda]

We can pretty much assume Jacob was present in 1954 because John mentioned Jacob and Richard had a surprised reaction. And Richard said, 'We all answer to somebody' or something

But as far as we have seen now....Richard only answers to himself.
He doesn't answer Eloise or Widmore or Ben.....
So if he answers somebody....and that somebody is a someone in a body.....so not a ghost....than Jacob could be a part of him that he answers to?

[TheNagual]

Thankfully this thread has people seeing clear. This is not Locke folks. This is evil incarnated. Throw WHH out the window because Locke wants to prove that all too well. The island, I think, is talking to John, and the island is evil
BS. stop thinking in linear fashion, this IS Locke, the one that he was suppose to be become, the leader, the confident, doesnt waste any time and he ll do anything that is necessary to be done and he s connected to the island more then anybody.

[TheNagual]

The change in Locke is peculiar, and the imagery of this episode is telling. Locke has shown himself throughout Lost to be becoming a man of faith, of purpose. He believed things when others wouldn't, or couldn't. He tried to get Jack to believe him when he told him to stay on the Island in season 4. He tried to get others to come back to the island, and had faith that a strange island man (Richard) was telling the truth when he said Locke had to die for his purpose to be fulfilled! This is a place of miracles, says Locke, and he believes them even without wondering about the cause of them. That is the essence of faith.

And yet...

Here Locke is, giving this inspired speech to his people about how they have never seen Jacob before, and how they shouldn't blindly follow his orders! He's lecturing them for having faith in a leader that they've never seen. He leads them out of the darkness and uncertainty of the night into the bright daylight sun, toward knowledge, toward an understanding of Jacob and to an understanding of the island's miracles? Wha?

Isn't this the opposite of faith? Instead of trusting and believing in the miracles of the island and having faith in your leader, to instead demand knowledge and question his actions? This is a bold move for a man of faith!

Could it be that he is trying to expose Jacob as some sort of false prophet or idol to the Others, so that they can again have faith in the spirit of the One True Island?
There is a difference between Faith and Blind Faith.
And this is the general confusion with religion today also.
Locke's "faith" always came from his connection to island, so it wasnt just blind faith, whatever he's doing now is trying to reveal the ultimate truth about who's pulling the strings. Also, many people confuse the island itself with Jacob, the island could be a positive place, Jacob might be not.

[coldandevell]

I don't know, we all keep assuming that the person in the cabin saying "help me" was Jacob. Part of the assumption seemed right because Ben was there too to witness and mislead. My thought is if Ben couldn't see the someone in the cabin then it really could be anyone that Locke saw. Ben was so freaked out at the time that Locke heard anyone in the cabin which now in light of the new developments really stands out to me.

I think Locke is on to Richard and Ben about something and he is about to reveal what that something is. I think it is very possible Jacob does not exist At least not in the sense we have been assuming he does. I am getting the feeling Ben just wants to be on the side that he thinks is winning lol.

[thebecoming]

About Locke`s speach to his people. Where there are Good spirited leaders there is also evil spirted leaders. A evil spirited leader can do false mircles and tell lies that seem like the honust truth. That was what Locke was pointing out. Now that he was chosen as the leader and guided by the island. He is ready to expose the island`s truths and false. He is the savoir that is guiding them away from the dark rule of the false good leader. So to me he isn`t doubting his faith in the island. He is simply showing the Hostiles to have faith in the true good. Not Jacob. But the island.

But what caused this turn in his belief? Why does he now doubt Jacob? He knows he has a purpose, but at what point did he understand that Jacob impeded that purpose?

[thebecoming]

There is a difference between Faith and Blind Faith.
And this is the general confusion with religion today also.
Locke's "faith" always came from his connection to island, so it wasnt just blind faith, whatever he's doing now is trying to reveal the ultimate truth about who's pulling the strings. Also, many people confuse the island itself with Jacob, the island could be a positive place, Jacob might be not.

I've always assumed that Jacob was some type of "human" manifestation of the miracles of the Island. Whereas not everyone can listen to what the Island wants, Jacob is there to guide them with the help of a select few that he directly communicates with. The Island, Jacob, and chosen ones able to communicate with him are all interwoven into an allegory of faith and prophets.

If this were true, and if Jacob is now not of the Island, then one wonders what he did to upset the Island.

[Lost in Lost]

From the way John was talking about Jacob, notg being real and all, it reminded me of an old Twilight Zone episode titled, "The old man in the cave"- the episode is about a group of nuclear war survivors who take orders from "an old man in a cave" nobody in the group ever actually sees a man (just like the others) and only the groups leader can go to see him (Locke, Ben, Richard, who ever is the leader) in the end some get second thoughts and the whole group goes to the cave and find out the man was a machine/computer.

It is really similar to what is happening, check it out

The whole scene I got the sense that Jacob was a made up entity, and John, by inviting the clan, attempts to prove that RA and Ben (and whomever else) has been scaming them. This will solidify his position as the leader.

[audienceofone]

and i have a hunch that Jacob is a imaginary creation of Richard to control the others, thus him being nervous about this pilgrimage to produce a being that doesn't even exist.

Like that old Twilight Zone episode called "The Old Man In The Cave". The oft repeated line in that episode was; The old man in the cave told us to...

[smthng2dowthlost]

The whole scene I got the sense that Jacob was a made up entity, and John, by inviting the clan, attempts to prove that RA and Ben (and whomever else) has been scaming them. This will solidify his position as the leader.

I got that feeling too, which makes me think when they show up jacob is going to be there and do something really bad ass, they usually don't do exactly what they've set up.

[abcd1234]

the whole episode too where ben and widmore were arguing over the baby, and ben kept saying jacob this and jacob that, and someone else said is that what jacob would want. it seems they have all been using the name jacob to gain influence, but that doesnt mean they have ever spoken to him. the whole scene where ben took locke to jacob, it felt like a big performance, that ben was acting. but once locke heard him and he turned on the flashlight everything went crazy, and it set on fire. then it stopped and the lamp was back on the table. the same lamp christian had in the cave.

[Fysh19]

Now Walts conversation with Locke ( life /death of Jeremy Bentham) makes sense. It will be the "others " surrounding Locke. Hmmmm.......

[smthng2dowthlost]

Now Walts conversation with Locke ( life /death of Jeremy Bentham) makes sense. It will be the "others " surrounding Locke. Hmmmm.......

he's not wearing a suit and I think the only ones that want to hurt him are richard and ben(who can't or he'll get destroyed by the smokemonster).

Actually I don't think that walt's dream ever happened unless it was when ben shot caesar.

[Fysh19]

he's not wearing a suit and I think the only ones that want to hurt him are richard and ben(who can't or he'll get destroyed by the smokemonster).

Actually I don't think that walt's dream ever happened unless it was when ben shot caesar.

Lets hope.

[Newbie]

Did the writers say that jacob was in the very first episode of season one?
Or was that just a rumor?

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

I finally got to the end of this thread! MAN! Many excellent points all around!
I would like to throw in another 2 cents...

There is some ideas on the threads about mirror images and I was just thinking that perhaps we should begin questioning if maybe .... just maybe... it will turn out that who and what we thought was good is actually evil and vice versa... Wouldn't that be a jaw dropping conclusion?

I am not convinced John is Jacob but there is talk of that too.
The general concensus is that John is Good, Jacob is Bad.
It occurred to me that I've been ignoring that the cabin MOVES... I think it moves in time.... If Jacob needs help, it is because someone may be "containing" him in that time traveling cabin.
If John needs to kill Jacob, to free him, perhaps John doesn't even realize he might BE Jacob (or maybe not..heehee) ... but at any rate, Richard and Ben who have been generally ill-spoken of, are definitely trying to keep Jacob under wraps.... maybe Richard and Ben are not such bad 'uns after all, and John, our beloved, isn't actually John but _____ (fill in the baddie blank):eek::eek:

[mnm4334]

6am and this thread has been viewed 3000 times.

I think this line was put in to make you forget everything else you saw this episode. I also think locke is lying to Ben for kicks. I think locke thinks jacob is a trick and isnt real, and is trying to get ben in a corner. even though he is undead and newly confident, he is still a dumbass and wont listen to anyone, even for 5 minutes.

aside from that, how likely is it that locke is going to kill jacob (if he exists)?

john doesnt have any questions anymore, he has all the answers, he doenst need to listen to anyone for 5 seconds let alone 5 minutes. John is the human embodiment of the islands will, if the island wants Jacob dead, Jacob will die. Sure locke could be lying, but why would he? He has Ben and Richard by the balls. If smokie wont let Ben touch Locke I'm pretty confident that smokie will have Locke's back in other regards as well, Richard also has never been one to take matters in to his own hands, unless you count the saving of Ben as a boy. An interesting idea could be that Richard is Jacob, and uses his advisory role to make sure his orders are followed.
The only evidence to this would be that there wasnt time for Richard to find a human person and ask permission to save Ben's life, but Richard claimed that Jacob wanted him to save Ben even though he had only known Ben was hurt when Sawyer and Kate showed up.

[TXAgg]

I haven't been able to read through the entire thread yet so I don't know if this has been brought up. But when Richard goes to visit Locke as a child and he chooses the knife over the compass, Richard gets upset and leaves. Does Locke picking the knife somehow indicate killing jacob, or being violent, or whatever....

Basically I'm trying to figure out the importance of the different items and why it was a bid deal that the knife was chosen.

[New Age Messiah]

Does Locke picking the knife somehow indicate killing jacob, or being violent, or whatever.... Basically I'm trying to figure out the importance of the different items and why it was a bid deal that the knife was chosen.Good thought. Now Richard is nervous/upset that Locke is doing what he's doing. Richard must know he can't stop it, and maybe he knew back then that Locke choosing the knife was a sign of things to come.

[tpbaxter]

* out of break *

wooo... all caught up. that was a lot...

That's probably the best theory; but we've seen that Jacob can be invisible and control the movement of objects, and pretty much freak people out. So can he go to the afterlife or is he already there.
Maybe because Locke is dead he's on equal ground with Jacob; and a dead guy killing a dead guy brings that dead guy back to life.
I don't know.

UP, your logic is impeccable! I am not sure what the rules are for dead guys killing other dead guys, but that sounds about right to me! This show makes me think about strange things :D

Simple really...
Jacob is not a "person" or a "living being".

Its a computer, electronic device, or something that is ethereal.

Something notsolost42 quoted a few times is that Damen Lindeloff (the writer, not necessarily the person who posts here with that name) said that there is a possible scientific or reasonable explanation for everything that happens in the show. Right now I cannot think of any realistic reason why a man would come back from the dead or why undead ghosts roam the Island. Which makes me think something is awry. So so far I am still sticking with my nanobots theory.

the whole episode too where ben and widmore were arguing over the baby, and ben kept saying jacob this and jacob that, and someone else said is that what jacob would want. it seems they have all been using the name jacob to gain influence, but that doesnt mean they have ever spoken to him. the whole scene where ben took locke to jacob, it felt like a big performance, that ben was acting. but once locke heard him and he turned on the flashlight everything went crazy, and it set on fire. then it stopped and the lamp was back on the table. the same lamp christian had in the cave.

kind of like how people, like politicians, use the word God sometimes, eh? ;)

[TXAgg]

It would be pretty interesting if that same knife shows up again... like maybe to kill jacob (if he exists) or maybe even richard with.

[tpbaxter]

by the way, nice use of stars on this thread. there's a lot of conversations going on in the season 5 section and a lot of them are long and some of them are redundant. If I had time to read them all I would but it's cool to know which one's people think are the most worth while. I probably would not have tried to read through all of this if it didn't have any stars.

[TheNagual]

john doesnt have any questions anymore, he has all the answers, he doenst need to listen to anyone for 5 seconds let alone 5 minutes. John is the human embodiment of the islands will, if the island wants Jacob dead, Jacob will die. Sure locke could be lying, but why would he? He has Ben and Richard by the balls. If smokie wont let Ben touch Locke I'm pretty confident that smokie will have Locke's back in other regards as well, Richard also has never been one to take matters in to his own hands, unless you count the saving of Ben as a boy. An interesting idea could be that Richard is Jacob, and uses his advisory role to make sure his orders are followed.
The only evidence to this would be that there wasnt time for Richard to find a human person and ask permission to save Ben's life, but Richard claimed that Jacob wanted him to save Ben even though he had only known Ben was hurt when Sawyer and Kate showed up.
You are correct.
Locke is the shaman, or the leader of the tribe, the only one the communicates with the island and its intentions directly.
The shamans are known to have allies, inorganic beings that help them, in this case that would be the 'smoke monster'.

[Archangel-Player]

But what caused this turn in his belief? Why does he now doubt Jacob? He knows he has a purpose, but at what point did he understand that Jacob impeded that purpose?

Because Locke is one with the island. The island represents the higher power. Jacob is said to be A higher power. Locke is listning to the voice of the island. The hostiles never heard or seen Jacob. But yet they folow him. So if Jacob is the higher power. Let him prove it. Locke is calling out the evil so to speak. He doesn`t know if Jacob is fake or not. So he is going to find out.

[LostFreak21]

So Locke and the gang are walking down the beach to find Jacob, not through the woods. Are they on their way to the Four Toed Statue then?

[Newbie]

So Locke and the gang are walking down the beach to find Jacob, not through the woods. Are they on their way to the Four Toed Statue then?

I dont believe so, I think they are going to the cabin,just taking the beach first before entering the jungle.
Isnt Jacob trapped in the cabin?
BUT if he is in the cabin, How are all those people going to fit inside..lol

[thebecoming]

Because Locke is one with the island. The island represents the higher power. Jacob is said to be A higher power. Locke is listning to the voice of the island. The hostiles never heard or seen Jacob. But yet they folow him. So if Jacob is the higher power. Let him prove it. Locke is calling out the evil so to speak. He doesn`t know if Jacob is fake or not. So he is going to find out.

If the analogy of Jacob to a prophet is correct, then Jacob must have done something wrong to have incurred the Island's wrath. My question is, how did Jacob lose favor with the Island? Or was Jacob a false prophet the entire time and the Island was simply waiting for outsiders like Locke to arrive, to fulfill their destiny and destroy Jacob?

[losttime]

Time IS the essence......Jacob is Jacob.....John Locke is evil.......Ben is good!

You really think Locke is evil?

[Archangel-Player]

If the analogy of Jacob to a prophet is correct, then Jacob must have done something wrong to have incurred the Island's wrath. My question is, how did Jacob lose favor with the Island? Or was Jacob a false prophet the entire time and the Island was simply waiting for outsiders like Locke to arrive, to fulfill their destiny and destroy Jacob?

Im not to sure about Jacob`s history since none has been presented. So we the viewers only know Locke belives the island is talking to him and he belives Jacob must die. The question is. Is Locke correct in thinking this is what the island wants or has he misinterpited. Like he did when Christian told him to move the island. Is it truly the island speaking to Lock or is if another manipulation by Smokie? Since Smokie shows intress in Locke as well. Is Smokie the "Island" that guide`s Locke? Hopefuly we will get some anwsers next episode. Im thinking Jacob doesn`t need to die as Locke speculates. Im thinking this is Smokie`s "guidence" to Locke. Im thinking Jacob is truly the good guy. Locke may be mislead.

[Newbie]

You really think Locke is evil?

The reason I thought ben was good because I thought he was doing what needed to be done for the sake of the island, in that sense, Locke now believes he also is doing whats best for the island.
Who's evil, IDK
Killing Jacob doesnt make Locke evil, maybe Jacob even wants it, needs it...he did say "help me" and some theories are that he is trapped

[TheNagual]

Well, Locke being the only one to come back from the dead says a lot, even Ben couldnt believe it, so basically the Island resurected Locke, so whatever he decides now its not a matter of doubt but the truth itself.

[5starboss]

or maybe a "dead guy" killing a "dead guy" kills him 4 good
lol funny.
Just think ABC has a character in Jacob who they don't have to pay!
i know that's right. who else has been talked about this much and we've seen only a glimpse? Hnery Gale that's who.
kind of like how people, like politicians, use the word God sometimes, eh? ;)

I was also thinking of when kids want their way, they'll say " momma told me you have to____." That's what I think of wehn Ben says, " because Jacob wants it to happen...."
************************************************** ******
So, about the original post, Locke killing Jacob, could this be the WAR? everyone picks a side.
Locke-Christian-Jack-Widmore-Hawking
vs.
Jacob-RA-Ben-others-paik-?