Time Loop!

[LOSTLOST]

The Locke-Richard scene with the bullet is now offically a time loop? I hate time loops!!

[Newbie]

The Locke-Richard scene with the bullet is now offically a time loop? I hate time loops!!

If...IF...IF...this is a time loop...then THIS..THIS is the time they get out of the loop by using FREE WILL

[notsolost42]

No, it's not a time loop. It was just when the island flashed from another perspective. We didn't know John, Richard, Ben, et al, were standing behind the bushes. Just like when John saw the light from the hatch and Sawyer watched Kate help Claire give birth. Same timeline. Different view.

[spartygirl]

The Locke-Richard scene with the bullet is now offically a time loop? I hate time loops!!

confusing :confused:

[LOSTLOST]

No, it's not a time loop. It was just when the island flashed from another perspective. We didn't know John, Richard, Ben, et al, were standing behind the bushes. Just like when John saw the light from the hatch and Sawyer watched Kate help Claire give birth. Same timeline. Different view.

But now locke will take richard's advice, leave the island for three years attempting to bring everyone back, fail, die, ressurrect, return to the island to tell richard everything and so on and so on

[notsolost42]

But now locke will take richard's advice, leave the island for three years attempting to bring everyone back, fail, die, ressurrect, return to the island to tell richard everything and so on and so on

We've never really seen it in the true order of events.

[woogie]

But now locke will take richard's advice, leave the island for three years attempting to bring everyone back, fail, die, ressurrect, return to the island to tell richard everything and so on and so on

This scene does not prove anyone is in a time loop. It only clarifies "when" Locke was when Richard came out of the jungle and removed the bullet that Ethan shot Locke with.

A time-loop implies that someone has experienced an event more than once from the same perspective. In Lost this has not been the case as all events that we seem to "see again" we are only being shown the same events from a different perspective.

[LOSTLOST]

We've never really seen it in the true order of events.

its going to be just like the end of the first Back to the Future- Marty comes back to see dr.brown presumably dead, while the past marty goes back to the 50's to set everything back up so the ending could continue to happen. Im sorry, very confusing

[TuesdaySmith]

I don't see how it's a loop..

[islander]

No, it's not a time loop. It was just when the island flashed from another perspective. We didn't know John, Richard, Ben, et al, were standing behind the bushes. Just like when John saw the light from the hatch and Sawyer watched Kate help Claire give birth. Same timeline. Different view.

This seems different. Locke interacted with himself via Richard. Sawyer was just an observer.

Locke went back in time to heal himself. I'm gonna have to ponder that.

[hyperchord24]

It is a time loop if you read what happens like this:

Locke had to die for him to supposedly save his friends. Why? Well Locke from the future told him to. How does Locke from the future know he has to die? Because he has already died and come back. That is a time loop. However, the island surely told him that he has to do this. So it's not really a time loop.

[notsolost42]

This seems different. Locke interacted with himself via Richard. Sawyer was just an observer.

Locke went back in time to heal himself. I'm gonna have to ponder that.

But remember Locke had asked Sawyer if he saw himself or talked to himself or something like that. It doesn't matter. It is the same and this was not part of a time loop at all. It just showed us that when that flash occured the island had flashed forward in timw to 2007. John watched in the bushes just like he watched in the bushes when he saw himself at the hatch when the light came on.

[LOSTLOST]

But remember Locke had asked Sawyer if he saw himself or talked to himself or something like that. It doesn't matter. It is the same and this was not part of a time loop at all. It just showed us that when that flash occured the island had flashed forward in timw to 2007. John watched in the bushes just like he watched in the bushes when he saw himself at the hatch when the light came on.

but now that there was two lockes at the same time, it will continue to happen. The locke we saw dissapear will soon come back to the island and be in the position of the "knowing Locke" etc..

[Gonnequip23]

I'm not sure... was Richard's dialogue new? Or was it the same as when we first saw it? I felt like it wasn't... which is a real problem!!

[notsolost42]

but now that there was two lockes at the same time, it will continue to happen. The locke we saw dissapear will soon come back to the island and be in the position of the "knowing Locke" etc..

That all depends. How come no one said that when Locke saw himself at the hatch during the flashes? Or when Sawyer watched Kate and Claire? During the flashes, the island flashed to 2007. John returned to the island having lived those three years already and told Richard what he had to do when it was 2007 because Richard hadn't lived that moment yet. Locke was manipulating WHH to make it come true.

[rock-lobster]

But remember Locke had asked Sawyer if he saw himself or talked to himself or something like that. It doesn't matter. It is the same and this was not part of a time loop at all. It just showed us that when that flash occured the island had flashed forward in timw to 2007. John watched in the bushes just like he watched in the bushes when he saw himself at the hatch when the light came on.

which makes it a "loop" but not a "time loop" in the traditional sense. as in, no john locke isn't going through that same experience over and over again from his own perspective. but if someone were to trace the events of that compass, for example, or the root of locke's "need to die," they would see a big loop.

richard tells locke he needs to die, locke dies, he tells richard he needs to tell locke that he needs to die, richard tells locke he needs to die, locke dies, he tells richard...

see what i mean? it's not a loop in that locke is consciously experiencing the same thing over and over, but it is a a loop in that the "you need to die" idea really has no root, it's just a looping idea.


IN FACT, is it possible... that if locke needs to die, then time came up with this untraceable idea in order to make sure he does?

it's clear that it's not locke's idea originally, because richard told him in the first place.

it's also clear that it's not richard's idea, because locke told him about it in the first place.

so the only other way it could come into existence is by fate or time or the island, or something of the non-human nature.

[LOSTLOST]

That all depends. How come no one said that when Locke saw himself at the hatch during the flashes? Or when Sawyer watched Kate and Claire? During the flashes, the island flashed to 2007. John returned to the island having lived those three years already and told Richard what he had to do when it was 2007 because Richard hadn't lived that moment yet. Locke was manipulating WHH to make it come true.

I think it wasnt brought up before becuase there was no interaction, this time Locke made something happen with himself, which he will always have to do in order to get to his current position. Actually when he knew he was at the hatch, he purposlly didnt do anything becuase he knew that his Hatch self needed to go about his normal acts in order to get to the current Locke

[notsolost42]

which makes it a "loop" but not a "time loop" in the traditional sense. as in, no john locke isn't going through that same experience over and over again from his own perspective. but if someone were to trace the events of that compass, for example, or the root of locke's "need to die," they would see a big loop.

richard tells locke he needs to die, locke dies, he tells richard he needs to tell locke that he needs to die, richard tells locke he needs to die, locke dies, he tells richard...

see what i mean? it's not a loop in that locke is consciously experiencing the same thing over and over, but it is a a loop in that the "you need to die" idea really has no root, it's just a looping idea.


IN FACT, is it possible... that if locke needs to die, then time came up with this untraceable idea in order to make sure he does?

it's clear that it's not locke's idea originally, because richard told him in the first place.

it's also clear that it's not richard's idea, because locke told him about it in the first place.

so the only other way it could come into existence is by fate or time or the island, or something of the non-human nature.

Ummm. Okay, let's try this. Think back to the island flashes after the wheel was turned, when it was dislodged. Okay, Locke came running out of the jungle at one point after he had been shot by Ethan. He sat by the beechcraft. Richard came out of the jungle to help him. He bandaged his leg and gave him the compass. He told Locke he would have to die. Now, that was in 2007 but we had started during time flashes and were never quite 100% sure what year it happened. We new it was after 2004 because that's when the beechcraft fell off the cliff with Boone in it. It was after that because we had all remarked about the plant growth around the plane and knew it had to be a flash forward at that point.
Okay, now we are in 2007 after actually living those three years. John is the only one who has lived that moment already because of the flash. Richard hasn't lived it yet but he's about to. John simply sets up what Richard tells him to do and they give Richard the DI medical kit.
It's not a time loop.

[LOSTLOST]

Ummm. Okay, let's try this. Think back to the island flashes after the wheel was turned, when it was dislodged. Okay, Locke came running out of the jungle at one point after he had been shot by Ethan. He sat by the beechcraft. Richard came out of the jungle to help him. He bandaged his leg and gave him the compass. He told Locke he would have to die. Now, that was in 2007 but we had started during time flashes and were never quite 100% sure what year it happened. We new it was after 2004 because that's when the beechcraft fell off the cliff with Boone in it. It was after that because we had all remarked about the plant growth around the plane and knew it had to be a flash forward at that point.
Okay, now we are in 2007 after actually living those three years. John is the only one who has lived that moment already because of the flash. Richard hasn't lived it yet but he's about to. John simply sets up what Richard tells him to do and they give Richard the DI medical kit.
It's not a time loop.

but now tha john who just got fixed time flashes again to the 50's and talks to richard then starts the process all over again

[notsolost42]

but now tha john who just got fixed time flashes again to the 50's and talks to richard then starts the process all over again

No, the time flashes started in what we believe was 2004 and they are past that date now.

[LostFreak21]

Ummm why did Ben ask dead and alive John who that was and dead and alive John said me. Don't say it was dark because Ben could see.

[rock-lobster]

Ummm. Okay, let's try this. Think back to the island flashes after the wheel was turned, when it was dislodged. Okay, Locke came running out of the jungle at one point after he had been shot by Ethan. He sat by the beechcraft. Richard came out of the jungle to help him. He bandaged his leg and gave him the compass. He told Locke he would have to die. Now, that was in 2007 but we had started during time flashes and were never quite 100% sure what year it happened. We new it was after 2004 because that's when the beechcraft fell off the cliff with Boone in it. It was after that because we had all remarked about the plant growth around the plane and knew it had to be a flash forward at that point.
Okay, now we are in 2007 after actually living those three years. John is the only one who has lived that moment already because of the flash. Richard hasn't lived it yet but he's about to. John simply sets up what Richard tells him to do and they give Richard the DI medical kit.
It's not a time loop.

okay, to clarify, define time loop.

[notsolost42]

Ummm why did Ben ask dead and alive John who that was and dead and alive John said me. Don't say it was dark because Ben could see.

Ah...let's seee..........because Ben was in TUNISIA when the island flashed and he did not experience it at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[notsolost42]

okay, to clarify, define time loop.

Perhaps you should give me your definition first.

[LostFreak21]

I would think he would know what John looked like he had seen him several times.

[notsolost42]

I would think he would know what John looked like he had seen him several times.

What???? Huh???? It was pitch black night. A person unexpectedly comes running out of the jungle and you think eagle eye Ben should have recognised it was Locke in the what, split second, he saw him? Sheeesh. All I can tell you is I am not confused about one blessed thing that happened tonight. It makes perfect sense to me.

[Archangel-Player]

The Locke-Richard scene with the bullet is now offically a time loop? I hate time loops!!

How do you see A loop? It looked to me to folow A string. It looked like that always happend. It played out exactly as it orignaly happend. We just got to see Richard`s point of view.

[LostFreak21]

What???? Huh???? It was pitch black night. A person unexpectedly comes running out of the jungle and you think eagle eye Ben should have recognised it was Locke in the what, split second, he saw him? Sheeesh. All I can tell you is I am not confused about one blessed thing that happened tonight. It makes perfect sense to me.

Of course!

[Archangel-Player]

But now locke will take richard's advice, leave the island for three years attempting to bring everyone back, fail, die, ressurrect, return to the island to tell richard everything and so on and so on

Correct. That is what always happend. Had Richard not helped Locke or was off timing. Then that would create A loop.

[LostFreak21]

Or a hula hoop loop

[notsolost42]

How do you see A loop? It looked to me to folow A string. It looked like that always happend. It played out exactly as it orignaly happend. We just got to see Richard`s point of view.

Thank you!!!!!! A sane person!!!! Finally!!!!! It was just perspective!!!! John had already lived the moment!!!!! Richard did not live it yet.

[rock-lobster]

Perhaps you should give me your definition first.

whatever the definition is, i stated earlier that i'm not talking "time loop" in the old fashioned way. i just mean a loop.

loop: where there is no clear beginning or ending to what is there. the whole process could repeat an infinite number of times.

so, on the show we see (in order of what we see personally): richard tells locke he has to die, locke dies, locke tells richard to tell locke to die in the first place. so where did this idea come from that locke has to die? nowhere explicit, that's where.

the theory that locke has to die is looping, and while for john locke and richard alpert the actions are only experienced once, each one of those steps in the loop is causing another step to occur, and the last step causes the first to occur (i mean the last step that we observe on the show). each step happens only because of the previous step happening, so the egg keeps on hatching the chicken that lays the egg.

so,

a) locke tells richard to tell locke to die
b) richard tells locke to die
c) locke dies
a) locke tells richard to tell locke to die

a-->b--->c--->a--->b--->c--->a... etc.

for locke and richard, it's not a time loop. but the actions themselves loop infinitely.

granted, this may not be the "time loop" where a guy keeps reliving the same stuff consciously but it's pretty clearly a loop in a course of events.

the compass, IMO, was meant to illustrate the same principle more visually. the compass was given from richard to john in 2007, who gives it to richard in 1954, who gives it to locke in 2007, who gives it to richard in 1954....

so, where the hell did the compass come from? it has no birth by this principle, no time that it actually was constructed. it's LOOPING, just like the events regarding locke's death.

your turn :)

(this is fun and slightly painful to the ol' cranium) ;)

[LostFreak21]

I feel I am sane......

[rock-lobster]

Thank you!!!!!! A sane person!!!! Finally!!!!! It was just perspective!!!! John had already lived the moment!!!!! Richard did not live it yet.

exactly. i think where we differ is that you're saying for a time loop to occur, one has to "live the moment" over and over, or at least more than once.

i agree, that doesn't happen. i'm not saying locke is in a time loop, or the bullet, or richard. i'm saying that the idea of locke needing to die is in a time loop. and that the compass is in a time loop.

[clicky2]

Thank you!!!!!! A sane person!!!! Finally!!!!! It was just perspective!!!! John had already lived the moment!!!!! Richard did not live it yet.

Question is ... how did he know the exact moment? The timing was 'impeccable'.

My question is ... did THIS John ever die?

[Archangel-Player]

This seems different. Locke interacted with himself via Richard. Sawyer was just an observer.

Locke went back in time to heal himself. I'm gonna have to ponder that.

Locke didn`t have to travel in time to heal him self. It was always his present time line to heal him self. We just got to see Locke was standing there while Richard heald past Locke. Which he always was standing there.

[notsolost42]

Question is ... how did he know the exact moment? The timing was 'impeccable'.

My question is ... did THIS John ever die?

This John is dead. Or undead. But he's not alive, that's for sure.

[notsolost42]

Say, can anyone tell me one thing that was different about that scene with Locke and Richard at the beechcraft than the first time we saw it? I don't know if I missed it or if it was truly different. I don't think it happened though.

[Archangel-Player]

Question is ... how did he know the exact moment? The timing was 'impeccable'.

My question is ... did THIS John ever die?

Present Locke knew his location. Because he already lived that moment as Past Locke. Present Locke was simply fulfilling the string of time. At the spcist moment past Locke was shot it created A memory. That Memory would connect with his present self to make him appear at the moment that memory accured. It`s like watching A movie you already seen. You know exactly when every part of the movie will happen now and expect it.

[notsolost42]

Present Locke knew his location. Because he already lived that moment as Past Locke. Present Locke was simply fulfilling the string of time. At the spcist moment past Locke was shot it created A memory. That Memory would connect with his present self to make him appear at the moment that memory accured. It`s like watching A movie you already seen. You know exactly when every part of the movie will happen now and expect it.

Well put. I would only add that the timing is also similar to how you just know how long a commercial is going to last while you flip channels during the show you are watching. You always seem to come back to your show at exactly the right time...

[Jeremy]

It makes perfect sense to me. Plenty of other things, like Rousseau surviving smokie or 815 crashing, couldn't have happened if the Losties didn't go back in time and make it happen. But from a normal person's perspective, or a sort of "universal" perspective, the time travellers would pop in and out of existance, and it would seem that there's more than one of them at the time.

[abcd1234]

its not a time loop, its exactly a linear time thing

[ortrules]

its not a time loop, its exactly a linear time thing

Yes. All these events only happen once in a lifetime. Yes, there is somewhat of a "loop" when Locke sees himself and sends Richard to help him, but Locke only does that once from each perspective, it doesn't happen over and over again.

Locke is shot.
Richard saves Locke.
Locke leaves the island.
Locke comes back.
Locke sends Richard to help Locke.
Locke goes to see Jacob.
Locke continues with his life.

[Missie]

Yes. All these events only happen once in a lifetime. Yes, there is somewhat of a "loop" when Locke sees himself and sends Richard to help him, but Locke only does that once from each perspective, it doesn't happen over and over again.

Locke is shot.
Richard saves Locke.
Locke leaves the island.
Locke comes back.
Locke sends Richard to help Locke.
Locke goes to see Jacob.
Locke continues with his life.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn94/msorre01/timeloop.jpg?t=1241702277

[ortrules]

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn94/msorre01/timeloop.jpg?t=1241702277

That's not a loop. That's looking at two different Lockes. Well, in that case, 4 different Lockes.

In his entire life. Locke is shot in the leg by Ethan only once. In his entire life. Locke sends Richard to help him only once. This never repeats. This is now history, it already happened.

[LOSTLOST]

That's not a loop. That's looking at two different Lockes. Well, in that case, 4 different Lockes.

In his entire life. Locke is shot in the leg by Ethan only once. In his entire life. Locke sends Richard to help him only once. This never repeats. This is now history, it already happened.

the locke we saw with the bullet in his leg was still time flashing, just like the present locke was. Bullet locke will repeat all of the steps that present locke made in order to become present locke and help bullet locke again and so on...

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

It's a causal loop, not a time loop. Just like the compass, the rope to the well, the killing of Daniel, etc. We have seen many causal loops in the show.

[ortrules]

the locke we saw with the bullet in his leg was still time flashing, just like the present locke was. Bullet locke will repeat all of the steps that present locke made in order to become present locke and help bullet locke again and so on...

A loop would be, Locke is shot, Locke sends Richard to help himself, Locke travels back in time, Locke is shot.

What you describe is just the past reliving itself. Past Locke with the bullet in his leg will eventually become the Locke who sent Richard, but that is still past Locke. It's almost like looking at an entirely different person.

[jlazarus]

Yes. All these events only happen once in a lifetime. Yes, there is somewhat of a "loop" when Locke sees himself and sends Richard to help him, but Locke only does that once from each perspective, it doesn't happen over and over again.

Locke is shot.
Richard saves Locke.
Locke leaves the island.
Locke comes back.
Locke sends Richard to help Locke.
Locke goes to see Jacob.
Locke continues with his life.
I don't believe in paradoxes, so I am hoping this gets explained better...but right *now* I too think this is a loop. Several things are in fact, but this is a great example.

The reason is the second line of your example : "Richard saves Locke" - That event is completely dependent upon the 5th line of your example "Locke sends Richard to help Locke".

Line 2 can't 'happen' unless line 5 happens.

Now....the only way I can explain this without paradox is if the island actually moves in time opposite of what we normally view as forward. Like, going from 2007 ---->1977----> 1955, etc...-----> AND Locke has a crystal ball of his 'future' (going backwards) and then acts upon it. Makes my head hurt actually. (of course I am not being serious here on this part, lol, :)

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

Line 2 can't 'happen' unless line 5 happens.

That's why it's a causal loop.

The reason people fall into the trap of seeing it as a "time loop" is because they are bouncing back and forth between the island's time line and Locke's time line. If you follow any one of them, you will not have a repeat of occurrences. But if you bounce back and forth, then it's really easy to cycle between the intersecting points.

Try following just Locke's timeline, and you will not see a repeat of events for Locke.

Try following just the island's timeline, and you will not see a repeat of events with respect to the island.

[islander]

But remember Locke had asked Sawyer if he saw himself or talked to himself or something like that. It doesn't matter. It is the same and this was not part of a time loop at all. It just showed us that when that flash occured the island had flashed forward in timw to 2007. John watched in the bushes just like he watched in the bushes when he saw himself at the hatch when the light came on.

I'm not pondering the time loop issue. It's the circumstances that I'm pondering, but I don't want to hijack this thread so I'll start a new one or check if someone else has.

[jlazarus]

That's why it's a causal loop.

Try following just Locke's timeline, and you will not see a repeat of events for Locke.

Try following just the island's timeline, and you will not see a repeat of events with respect to the island.
Help me out with following Locke's timeline. So this is what you are saying basically:

Locke is born.
Locke takes a test given to him by RA. Locke doesn't pick the compass.
Locke grows up and a bunch of bad things happen to him.
Locke lands on the island.
Locke jumps around through time.
Locke gets shot by Ethan.
Locke gets saved by RA and is given a compass and is told he has to die.
Locke jumps through time again.
Locke finds RA and gives him the compass.
Locke turns the wheel.
Locke jumps around the world.
Locke dies.
Locke goes back to the island, dead, but is resurrected.
Locke finds RA, tells RA to save himself (Locke) and give him the compass.

But even from Locke's point of view, he affects his OWN timeline of events by telling RA what to do - to save him - which he could not have done if he had NOT already told RA what to do, because if he had NOT already told RA what to do, then RA wouldn't have done it and Locke wouldn't know to tell him what to do. Right? or Wrong? Sincerely! :)

[losttime]

It is a time loop if you read what happens like this:

Locke had to die for him to supposedly save his friends. Why? Well Locke from the future told him to. How does Locke from the future know he has to die? Because he has already died and come back. That is a time loop. However, the island surely told him that he has to do this. So it's not really a time loop.

I can understand your point. you are speaking from a certain perspective. In either case, I thought it was a great scene. One thing though is when I first saw the scene from this point of view, for some reason I thought Locke was sitting inside the plane and saw Alpert holding the burning stick through one of the windows on the plane but in this seen he is sitting against the Rock. I could be wrong but I will watch the original scene again.

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

But even from Locke's point of view, he affects his OWN timeline of events by telling RA what to do - to save him - which he could not have done if he had NOT already told RA what to do, because if he had NOT already told RA what to do, then RA wouldn't have done it and Locke wouldn't know to tell him what to do. Right? or Wrong? Sincerely! :)

First part is correct, the part in bold. Locke affects his own historical timeline. The second part is not correct "which he could not have done if he had NOT already told RA what to do" -> he did this one time (for this specific causal loop anyway). That time that he did it is what impacted his historical timeline. Young Locke receives the information (one time), Old Locke gives the information (one time). Richard is the medium.

[VeraLynn]

the locke we saw with the bullet in his leg was still time flashing, just like the present locke was. Bullet locke will repeat all of the steps that present locke made in order to become present locke and help bullet locke again and so on...

The word "repeat" should be removed. Bullet Locke is not repeating anything. It is the same Locke we saw during the time flash episodes. He will go through all the steps for the very first time.

Imagine that every moment in the past, present, and future already exist. There is no such thing as time, only our perception of it. Therefore, moments cannot be repeated.

[RussellEarl3]

Any time anyone goes back in time a time loop is created. Say that today you go back in time one day to yesterday because you missed the 2-for-a-dollar deal at your favorite Taco Joint. You go back in time, you eat your cheap tacos and return to the present. In the meantime yesterday's timeline continues on until it reaches the point today when you realize you are hungry for tacos and don't want to pay 99 cents a piece for them and you go back one day. You do not experience the repitition because the you that went back in time has moved on to tomorrow. Maybe you can go back in time; maybe you can't. If you do go back in time, however, you create a time loop.

The compass thing is a time loop paradox or perhaps because it's stupid it's a pair of docks. Time loop paradoxes can be expalined by multiple time loops, but only if you don't beleive in WHH. Maybe in the first iteration (time loop), or 100th, or 1000th, Locke picks up a compass, perhaps left by the soldier Widmore kills. He then walks into the Others camp and confronts Richard. Let's say he is not claiming to be the leader just a wanna be. "Hi, I'm one of you." He doesn't give Richard the compass, it doesn't mean anything, however, he drops the compass just before he disappears and now Richard has something which he thinks belonged to Locke. Forty years later Richard gives the compass to Locke and the compass is in play and appears to have come from nowhere.

None of this explains Locke's preknowledge of where and when to be to treat his leg wound. I think that requires a supernatural explanation.

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

You do not experience the repitition...

Then who does?

If nobody, then what makes it a "time loop?"

[LostFreak21]

Remember being in school and you had to make a line on your paper, next you brought pictures from home of yourself. They may not be in order so you put them on a desk and figure out the order in time they need to go in. Then you glue them on a paper and put the year under them and then you write under the picture what is going on in the picture. Is this what Lost is?

[Pung]

The word "repeat" should be removed. Bullet Locke is not repeating anything. It is the same Locke we saw during the time flash episodes. He will go through all the steps for the very first time.

Imagine that every moment in the past, present, and future already exist. There is no such thing as time, only our perception of it. Therefore, moments cannot be repeated.

I love your posts VeraLynn....

To add to this, a thinking exercise. Imagine yourself a young man/woman and you are in a crowded gathering of people. Some sort of social event. While sipping punch or some other beverage an older man/woman comes up to you and begins to make idle conversation. The person then suggests that you go and talk to an attractive member of the opposite sex (*or same, dont want to exclude anybody) across the room.

You go over and strike up a conversation with them and are completely infatuated with them. You spend the rest of the evening talking and chatting and this is the beginning of a great relationship. You begin to date this person and time passes, you and this person marry, buy a house, have kids, the whole thing. This person is the love of your life and you are so pleased with the way that it has turned out.

Then one day you are thrust thru time, lets say caught in a wormhole, or you flashed becasue someone turned a frozen donkey wheel ;). When you flash, you find yourself in a crowded room full of young adults. You glance over and it is your younger self sipping punch. You decide to walk right up to your past self to talk with them. You then suggest that they should go and talk to the attractive person who, in the future, will be your own wife/husband.

*I bet there may be some people who wish they could time travel back and do the opposite:)

So long story short, your future self told you to go and meet your future spouse without you knowing at the time. The event happened from two different prepectives, by the same person, but only at one time. That coversation between you and your future self only happens once, but you will experience it as your present self and your future self, but it still only happens once.

This exercise and the event with Locke sending Richard to mend his past self and give him information that only his future self knows are not time loops. Any event happens once in time in the past, present, and future again like VeraLynn said.

What these events are actually are perfect examples of WHH.

[chester]

The Locke-Richard scene with the bullet is now offically a time loop? I hate time loops!!

But the question is, does Richard say the same thing to previous-Locke, every time in the loop? We have only seen him talk once, they didn't show us what he said 'this time around' - exactly. I think this is where earlier finds of slightly different conversations, where the same event is being shown twice, comes into play.

[New Age Messiah]

Imagine that every moment in the past, present, and future already exist. There is no such thing as time, only our perception of it. Therefore, moments cannot be repeated.Does that support TCC or WHH? Or not?

I like the way you put it. I think that's maybe the highest persepctive most simply put I've read, reagarding the time stuff.

[abcd1234]

supports whh, I guess.

[chester]

Imagine that every moment in the past, present, and future already exist. There is no such thing as time, only our perception of it. Therefore, moments cannot be repeated.

They can if you have people with free will involved in time travel and having knowledge of those moments. In fact the person doing the time-travel doesn't even need to have personal knowledge of the moment him or herself. But only needs to be being successfully manipulated by someone who has that knowldege (this Island fella is getting more interesting every ep).

If Locke had free will, and decided not to listen to the Island, then he could have decided not to tell Richard to go and pull the bullet out, or not to tell himself that he needs to bring everyone back. He could have instead told Richard to tell himself to just chill out for while..... or go to Vegas and fun. Even though, 'last time' Richard said something completely different.

[VeraLynn]

Does that support TCC or WHH? Or not?

I like the way you put it. I think that's maybe the highest persepctive most simply put I've read, reagarding the time stuff.

Definitely WHAH.

I'm glad it helps :) I just remembered how it was described by some physicist on Nova a few years back. Basically, as a "series of nows" which all exist simultaneously, but which we can only experience one at a time. That is what creates the illusion of the passage of time. It isn't that we have no free will...we do...but everything we will do has already been done. The past, present, and future exist together.

[VeraLynn]

They can if you have people with free will involved in time travel and having knowledge of those moments. In fact the person doing the time-travel doesn't even need to have personal knowledge of the moment him or herself. But only needs to be being successfully manipulated by someone who has that knowldege (this Island fella is getting more interesting every ep).

If Locke had free will, and decided not to listen to the Island, then he could have decided not to tell Richard to go and pull the bullet out, or not to tell himself that he needs to bring everyone back. He could have instead told Richard to tell himself to just chill out for while..... or go to Vegas and fun. Even though, 'last time' Richard said something completely different.

IF Locke decided not to listen to the island, then that would have been what he'd always done.

[abcd1234]

according to the idea that time has already happened at all points this is true, but in terms of the show, the last episode is as far as the story has progressed (that we know) of course we know its 2009, so there could be a twist there

[chester]

IF Locke decided not to listen to the island, then that would have been what he'd always done.

That right, IF. Because he has free will, and can make that choice.

[thelawgiver]

I posted this link to a parody cartoon, which demonstrates some silliness about looping time. I think it is appropriate for LOST.

http://www.sealab2021x.com/season-1/lost-in-time/

[VeraLynn]

That right, IF. Because he has free will, and can make that choice.

Maybe Richard exerted his free will, this time, and didn't tell Locke about having to die and bring everyone back. Because he was concerned in the change this made to Locke - according to his assessment of Lockes attitude since coming back. We never heard what Richard said, this time.

I'd bet that the reason we didn't hear what Richard said is because we already heard it. This was our chance to see the same scene from a different perspective.

Sorry, ardent WHH over here. But I still believe in free will! I just don't believe in alternate time lines or paradoxes.

[chester]

I'd bet that the reason we didn't hear what Richard said is because we already heard it. This was our chance to see the same scene from a different perspective.

Sorry, ardent WHH over here. But I still believe in free will! I just don't believe in alternate time lines or paradoxes.

Have you seen the new Star Trek yet?

[VeraLynn]

Have you seen the new Star Trek yet?

No, but I know it's a time travel plot. Black hole, right? That connection would make Notso happy. Star Trek has never really adhered much to WHH. Did you see it?

Hm...in First Contact, the present changes before their eyes when the borg go back in time and assimilate everyone on Earth. The crew goes back before the borg get there in order to prevent it. Right? I'ts been a while. Anyway, in traveling back in time to prevent world wide assimilation, the crew wackily, and inadvertently nudge events to happen the same way they did in the history books. It's sort of WHH, but only because things were changed (by borg) in the first place.

[VeraLynn]

If the writers decided to bring Borg into Lost...I'd still watch.

[littleredman]

If we ask any questions about this sequence they should be about the compass! Where was it first created?

Locke gave it to Richard in 1954, and then Richard gave it to Locke years later.

Is the compass on a loop? Possibly not, since those two events only had to have happened ONCE. But it's still confusing.

[chester]

No, but I know it's a time travel plot. Black hole, right? That connection would make Notso happy. Star Trek has never really adhered much to WHH. Did you see it?

Hm...in First Contact, the present changes before their eyes when the borg go back in time and assimilate everyone on Earth. The crew goes back before the borg get there in order to prevent it. Right? I'ts been a while. Anyway, in traveling back in time to prevent world wide assimilation, the crew wackily, and inadvertently nudge events to happen the same way they did in the history books. It's sort of WHH, but only because things were changed (by borg) in the first place.

Yeah, I watched it yesterday. Some interesting names involved; Abrams, Lindelof, Bourke. And there were some very interesting LOST "moments" in there too. Without spoiling it too much, your're right, they don't believe in WHAH at all. If your in the past and you know what happened there, you can still do whatever you want - whether that is to do what was "always" done, or do something different. And then later the Spock's scoff at the "universe-ending paradoxes", that would result from making any changes to the past (??)

It's good to have the Spocks on our HCC side, at least.

If the writers decided to bring Borg into Lost...I'd still watch.

LOL. So would I :D

[chester]

If we ask any questions about this sequence they should be about the compass! Where was it first created?

Locke gave it to Richard in 1954, and then Richard gave it to Locke years later.

Is the compass on a loop? Possibly not, since those two events only had to have happened ONCE. But it's still confusing.

It is certainly confusing. But paradoxes can be real (look at my avi)? It only had to happen once to have a cause, even if that cause 'never happens' at some later stage due to a change in the past?

I don't know, but there's always the fi in sci-fi for them to play with.

[Pung]

If we ask any questions about this sequence they should be about the compass! Where was it first created?

Locke gave it to Richard in 1954, and then Richard gave it to Locke years later.

Is the compass on a loop? Possibly not, since those two events only had to have happened ONCE. But it's still confusing.

Littleredman! Where have you been?!?!?! Glad to see you back, I always enjoy your input on things.

The compass is the thing I am having trouble with as a non-timeloop supporter. It seems that chronologically the first time the compass 'existed' was 1954 with locke giving it to Richard. Chronologically, Richard has the compass until 2007 when John asks for it back and shortly after gives it to Richard to give to Lockes past self to give back to Richard in 1954. So loop suppoerters have a good point about some sort of loop.

IF Locke decided not to listen to the island, then that would have been what he'd always done.

I cannot believe how simply you have said this. It is beautiful. WHH for sure

[islander]

The word "repeat" should be removed. Bullet Locke is not repeating anything. It is the same Locke we saw during the time flash episodes. He will go through all the steps for the very first time.

I agree with removing "repeat". I suppose it's tempting to look for a loop since Locke is interacting with himself, but I don't see the loop because this is the first time he has experienced any of these events.

Imagine that every moment in the past, present, and future already exist. There is no such thing as time, only our perception of it. Therefore, moments cannot be repeated.

I can't give you that. Past moments existed, present moments exist, and future moments will/might or might not exist.

[thebecoming]

The compass is the thing I am having trouble with as a non-timeloop supporter. It seems that chronologically the first time the compass 'existed' was 1954 with locke giving it to Richard. Chronologically, Richard has the compass until 2007 when John asks for it back and shortly after gives it to Richard to give to Lockes past self to give back to Richard in 1954. So loop suppoerters have a good point about some sort of loop.

The terminology is what seems to confuse people when talking about time loops.

As it has been presented to us, the compass appears to be an eternally looping object. It is contained within a loop in time that has no beginning and no end to its role in the story; Locke gives the compass to Richard, who gives the compass to Locke, who gives the compass to Richard, and on and on. An object with an infinite age seems ludicrous but maybe its purpose is more metaphor than realia.

Locke is not in such a time loop. Locke's type of loop is completely different. Locke is not being given and taken as an object to and from a time-traveling entity. Locke IS the time-traveling entity. Locke has a known beginning (being born) and some unidentified probable ending (dying at some point). The compass has no such known beginning and end.

[littleredman]

Littleredman! Where have you been?!?!?! Glad to see you back, I always enjoy your input on things.


Hey. I'm always here, I just don't post as often.

Here's an interesting thought- what if the compass were a person? What if Locke had arrived in 1954 and given Richard, say, Faraday. And then, many years later, Richard had given Faraday back to Locke.

For Faraday, this would surely be a timeloop. Of course, you could bring free will into it. Perhaps Faraday could resist and break the loop. Or could he? I don't know.

Since the compass has no consciousness and is unaware of what's happening, then perhaps there isn't a loop. Merely 'the life of the compass' 1954 - 2007. It appears in time and then disappears.

And yet still the loop seem unavoidable. But here's another thought - if the compass really is on a loop - appearing in 1954, disappearing in 2007, reappearing in 1954, disappearing in 2007 and so on - then does it AGE? Surely if it is bouncing around forever then it is going to rot away eventually. It couldn't exist for all eternity, the parts would decay.

BUT THEN... this would change time! Because the compass was NOT rotten in 1954 - ever! Whatever happened, happened! Or did it?

I don't know.

[Pung]

The terminology is what seems to confuse people when talking about time loops.

As it has been presented to us, the compass appears to be an eternally looping object. It is contained within a loop in time that has no beginning and no end to its role in the story; Locke gives the compass to Richard, who gives the compass to Locke, who gives the compass to Richard, and on and on. An object with an infinite age seems ludicrous but maybe its purpose is more metaphor than realia.

Locke is not in such a time loop. Locke's type of loop is completely different. Locke is not being given and taken as an object to and from a time-traveling entity. Locke IS the time-traveling entity. Locke has a known beginning (being born) and some unidentified probable ending (dying at some point). The compass has no such known beginning and end.

I completely agree. I would like to see some origin of the compass but i will be ok if I dont.

[littleredman]

Locke is not in such a time loop. Locke's type of loop is completely different. Locke is not being given and taken as an object to and from a time-traveling entity. Locke IS the time-traveling entity. Locke has a known beginning (being born) and some unidentified probable ending (dying at some point). The compass has no such known beginning and end.

Whilst I agree that Locke is not in a time loop, the compass is STILL a time-travelling entity and as such should be governed by the same laws. But it isn't. It doesn't appear to have been created, ever.

And although at this point I'm a firm believer in WHH, the compass seems to be the stongest case yet for TCC.

[Pung]

But here's another thought - if the compass really is on a loop - appearing in 1954, disappearing in 2007, reappearing in 1954, disappearing in 2007 and so on - then does it AGE? Surely if it is bouncing around forever then it is going to rot away eventually. It couldn't exist for all eternity, the parts would decay.

This is a very interesting point. It seems as if the compass is given to richard in 1954 and it is already aged, then after 53 years it seems the compass would have only aged over that time. Then the compass travels back from 2007 to 1954 to be given back to Richard.

The condition that Richard receives the compass should be that of which it was in 2007. But if Richard has it for 53 years than clearly it must age in that time, so it cannot be in the same condition when it is taken back to 1954.

This clearly has me stumped, but perhaps since apparently the compass is on Richard at all times, then the compass does not age? If it is in Richards possesion does it not age just as he does not age?

[Pung]

And although at this point I'm a firm believer in WHH, the compass seems to be the stongest case yet for TCC.

Yes the compass is the strongest thing I have seen in the show that is challenging WHH, but it could easily be answered in future eps

[littleredman]

Of course Richard might just have two compasses.

[tpbaxter]

And although at this point I'm a firm believer in WHH, the compass seems to be the stongest case yet for TCC.

wait a minute... are you guys talking about HCC?

[littleredman]

Just watched the scene where Locke asks Richard if he still has the compass in 2007. Richard pulls it out of his pocket and says it's a 'little rusty'.

So, unless Richard has two compasses then the one that is bouncing around in time does indeed age.

[Pung]

maybe if we make enough fuss about the compass TPTB will have to explain more about it!:D

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

Here's an interesting thought- what if the compass were a person? What if Locke had arrived in 1954 and given Richard, say, Faraday. And then, many years later, Richard had given Faraday back to Locke.

For Faraday, this would surely be a timeloop. Of course, you could bring free will into it. Perhaps Faraday could resist and break the loop. Or could he? I don't know.

Since the compass has no consciousness and is unaware of what's happening, then perhaps there isn't a loop. Merely 'the life of the compass' 1954 - 2007. It appears in time and then disappears.

And yet still the loop seem unavoidable. But here's another thought - if the compass really is on a loop - appearing in 1954, disappearing in 2007, reappearing in 1954, disappearing in 2007 and so on - then does it AGE? Surely if it is bouncing around forever then it is going to rot away eventually. It couldn't exist for all eternity, the parts would decay.

BUT THEN... this would change time! Because the compass was NOT rotten in 1954 - ever! Whatever happened, happened! Or did it?

I don't know.

The prospects WRT the compass are very interesting. A few of possibilities:

- TPTB threw this in as an Easter Egg, not terribly significant, just as much fantasy as the idea of traveling through time via mysterious flashes
- The compass will have significance as well as an explanation
- The compass symbolizes a current cyclical problem that the island is undergoing (for the HCC'ers)
- The compass can be explained away by having Richard destroy it, discard it, or otherwise reveal that it actually had an origin (a new one obtained) between 1954 and 2004

As far as damage that would be done to it:

- If HCC, then it accumulates damage as it goes
- If WHH, then it magically resets at some point in the cycle. Why not, though, time travel via flashes is in and of itself magical.

[chester]

Nice. Well put Bob.

[mnm4334]

wait a minute... are you guys talking about HCC?

TCC=HCC not sure what the T stands for, Things or time i think, but yeah same idea as history can change, honestly we really should find a better slogan, cause well if it can change its not history, its really dependent on whether or not Jack was supposed to go back, so either Jack has a destiny, or Jacks still a loser. two scenarios, Jack has a destiny, if Jack has a destiny to fufill that goes hand in hand with WHH, since Jack believes destiny we should take that as evidence that he doesnt, but he thinks he does but he also thinks he can change his destiny, which well, you cant. Granted 815 can still crash without completely invalidating HCC, but for this scenario, if Jack indeed has a destiny, then he has already done it and WHH holds true.

JAL, jacks a loser, my personal favorite scenario, Jack was never meant to do anything (besides die in the pilot and give Locke his treads) Jack changes history by trying to be more than he is and is able to affect the future because even though hes a retard, a retard running around in a china shop is asking for things to get broken. JAl or Jacks a variable, depending on if you like Jack or not, but this is an HCC/TCC scenario.

What doesn't make sense though, is Eloise. Why would Eloise be such a bitch to her son his entire life and convince him to go back to the island when she knew if he did, she would kill him. Either Eloise hates her son that much that she wanted him to suffer before she ultimately murders him, or WHH and you cant do a damn thing about it

[etfrompo]

The prospects WRT the compass are very interesting. A few of possibilities:

- TPTB threw this in as an Easter Egg, not terribly significant, just as much fantasy as the idea of traveling through time via mysterious flashes
- The compass will have significance as well as an explanation
- The compass symbolizes a current cyclical problem that the island is undergoing (for the HCC'ers)
- The compass can be explained away by having Richard destroy it, discard it, or otherwise reveal that it actually had an origin (a new one obtained) between 1954 and 2004

As far as damage that would be done to it:

- If HCC, then it accumulates damage as it goes
- If WHH, then it magically resets at some point in the cycle. Why not, though, time travel via flashes is in and of itself magical.

My explaination was that After 1954, when Locke dissapeared from their camp, Richard destroyed the compass from Locke. He then went to verify Lockes story in 1956 and after seeing Locke as a baby got a replacement compass to use to test young Locke with.

[islander]

What doesn't make sense though, is Eloise. Why would Eloise be such a bitch to her son his entire life and convince him to go back to the island when she knew if he did, she would kill him. Either Eloise hates her son that much that she wanted him to suffer before she ultimately murders him, or WHH and you cant do a damn thing about it

Ellie clearly loved Dan based on her exchange with Charles outside the hospital.

But Dan was also deteriorating badly in 2007. I think Ellie pushed Dan to lean all he could about spacetime so that he could change something somehow to allow him to live.

Granted that contradicts what she told Des and others, but she also knew by not sending Dan back he was certain to die anyway. I figured she rolled the dice hoping/wishing Dan had obtained the knowledge to save his own life. (It's not looking so good right now. :( )

[wiley]

Ellie clearly loved Dan based on her exchange with Charles outside the hospital.

But Dan was also deteriorating badly in 2007. I think Ellie pushed Dan to lean all he could about spacetime so that he could change something somehow to allow him to live.

Granted that contradicts what she told Des and others, but she also knew by not sending Dan back he was certain to die anyway. I figured she rolled the dice hoping/wishing Dan had obtained the knowledge to save his own life. (It's not looking so good right now. :( )

If she really wanted to save him, why didn't she just write "dear danny boy, when you get off the sub don't go running into my camp waving a damn gun around. Love MOM" in his journal.

[thebecoming]

Whilst I agree that Locke is not in a time loop, the compass is STILL a time-travelling entity and as such should be governed by the same laws. But it isn't. It doesn't appear to have been created, ever.

The compass is NOT a time-traveling entity. It is an object that can be carried with a person who time travels, but IT does not time travel itself. This is critical, although it may seem like splitting hairs.

The compass is an object that is continually passed from Future Locke to Past Richard in 1954, and from Future Richard to Past Locke in 2007. Notice that when Future Locke hands the compass over to Past Richard in 1954, he then flashes away WITHOUT the compass.

The compass is stuck in 1954 and is fated to age another 53 years before it will be given to Locke again in 2007, where the cycle continues.

Locke, on the other hand, travels back in time to hand off the compass to Past Richard in 1954, and continues on his own lifepath to where we see him today, leading his people to find Jacob. He skips the actual time loop that the compass is seemingly stuck in.

An analogy could be made to the boardgame Chutes and Ladders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snakes_and_ladders). Think of the path of the compass as a player who continually hits the same chute at the same place on the board for all of eternity ;)

Did Richard destroy the compass somewhere between 1954 and 2007, before he gave a new compass to Locke again? It's possible, however when Locke asked how his compass was doing, Richard didn't even flinch and took out a compass that seemed identical to the one in 1954. This Eternal Compass is quite the interesting artifact!!

Yes the compass is the strongest thing I have seen in the show that is challenging WHH, but it could easily be answered in future eps

How does it challenge WHH?

[islander]

If she really wanted to save him, why didn't she just write "dear danny boy, when you get off the sub don't go running into my camp waving a damn gun around. Love MOM" in his journal.

Good question. Why didn't Charlotte listen to Dan and not return to the island? It seems like no one listens.

[notsolost42]

Good question. Why didn't Charlotte listen to Dan and not return to the island? It seems like no one listens.

I don't really think Charlotte had a very clear memory about that time in her life. She did say her mother tried to basically brain wash her by telling her it was all a dream or make believe or something like that. She had to have been real confused about the details.

[vonnie]

Help me with this one. The posters who have said Richard giving Locke the compass was not a time loop, just seeing it from a different perspective, doesn't a different perspective imply an even that happens at the same time, just seen from a different point of view? But Locke had ALREADY experienced this, Ben wasn't even on the island when they
were all time flashing, so he did not witness this the first time it happened. So its not a different perspective, it is a separate happening. Does that make any sense?

[notsolost42]

By jove! You've almost got it!!! Okay, stay with me. It was the same event from a different perspective. Here's why. When the island flashed John to that point, he has now lived it already. Ben was off island and had no idea about what was going on. He knew nothing about the flashes on the island or the beechcraft or anything. Richard had not yet lived it....until that moment! And, when he lived it, it was John telling him what to say. It's no different than when John saw the light from the hatch when they were flashing or when Sawyer saw Kate and Claire. Different perspective. Does that help you now?

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

Ben wasn't even on the island when they
were all time flashing, so he did not witness this the first time it happened.

Actually he did, he was just off in the bushes and his presence was not made known to the viewing audience. But it wasn't a matter of "the first time" or not. There was one time when that particular event happened. Old Locke sent Richard to help Young Locke while Old Locke and Ben watched from a distance. That single event happened one time, but we are seeing it a 2nd time from the perspective of Old Locke, Richard, and Ben.

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

How does it challenge WHH?

Think of it like this. When Richard gets it in 1954, then it *must* be in the exact same condition that he gives it to Locke in. For, if he scratches it, then that scratch will already have been there...because it will now be there when he gives it to Locke (who will then take it and travel back to 1954).

Furthermore, either the compass sustains accumulating damage or it does not. If it does not, then it must magically reset at some point. If it does, then presumably it was brand new at some point...where did the new compass come from?

[LOSTLOST]

Actually he did, he was just off in the bushes and his presence was not made known to the viewing audience. But it wasn't a matter of "the first time" or not. There was one time when that particular event happened. Old Locke sent Richard to help Young Locke while Old Locke and Ben watched from a distance. That single event happened one time, but we are seeing it a 2nd time from the perspective of Old Locke, Richard, and Ben.

Yes but the young locke will continue to take the path that old locke had already taken. Richard will get his compass back in 1954 and give it to locke again in 2007

[thebecoming]

Think of it like this. When Richard gets it in 1954, then it *must* be in the exact same condition that he gives it to Locke in. For, if he scratches it, then that scratch will already have been there...because it will now be there when he gives it to Locke (who will then take it and travel back to 1954).

Furthermore, either the compass sustains accumulating damage or it does not. If it does not, then it must magically reset at some point. If it does, then presumably it was brand new at some point...where did the new compass come from?

There are a few explanations to this that support WHH:

1) Richard trashes the compass given to him in 1954 and obtains a new compass before meeting Locke again in 2007

2) The compass literally has been around forever but does not show damage because it is a holy/magical artifact and acts more as a metaphor for the agelessness of time (a miracle, yes, but stranger things have happened)

3) Richard being in possession of the artifact causes it not to age, much like Richard does not age

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

Yes but the young locke will continue to take the path that old locke had already taken.

Replace this with anybody and it is always true, is it not?

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

becoming, I agree that those are possibilities, but at this point it's still not clear, and that is the challenge that is referenced above.

[chester]

Yes but the young locke will continue to take the path that old locke had already taken. Richard will get his compass back in 1954 and give it to locke again in 2007

Until it rusts away?

[krakup]

Yes but the young locke will continue to take the path that old locke had already taken. Richard will get his compass back in 1954 and give it to locke again in 2007

LOSTLOST i duplicated my posts sorry

[krakup]

Yes but the young locke will continue to take the path that old locke had already taken. Richard will get his compass back in 1954 and give it to locke again in 2007

LOSTLOST i just noticed your signature and i'm guessing you are a glass half empty type of person? :)

[abcd1234]

I just posted this in another thread and cant believe there are 2 threads on the compass. actually this thread wasnt about the compass but guess it turned into it.

anyway, isnt it possible richard had the compass, and when locke flashed back to the 50's locke gave him the compass, and he then had 2 compasses?

[chester]

I just posted this in another thread and cant believe there are 2 threads on the compass. actually this thread wasnt about the compass but guess it turned into it.

anyway, isnt it possible richard had the compass, and when locke flashed back to the 50's locke gave him the compass, and he then had 2 compasses?

So which compass does he give Locke?

[littleredman]

I fail to see how the compass cannot be considered a time travelling entity, regardless of the method it is sent back/forward in time. The island is 'dragging' the characters around in time in the same way Locke dragged the compass.

Would you not consider Faraday's tie to be a time travelling entity? Are the only time travelling entities the nude characters? Would a severed leg travel through time with it's body? Or would the leg travel without the body? Does a time travelling entity have to be 'alive'?

I know it's getting ridiculous but I think it's reasonable to say that whatever travels through time is a 'time travelling entity'.

[chester]

I fail to see how the compass cannot be considered a time travelling entity, regardless of the method it is sent back/forward in time. The island is 'dragging' the characters around in time in the same way Locke dragged the compass.

Would you not consider Faraday's tie to be a time travelling entity? Are the only time travelling entities the nude characters? Would a severed leg travel through time with it's body? Or would the leg travel without the body? Does a time travelling entity have to be 'alive'?

I know it's getting ridiculous but I think it's reasonable to say that whatever travels through time is a 'time travelling entity'.

Dude, welcome to the "ridiculous" world of LOST. :)

[abcd1234]

So which compass does he give Locke?


I guess he would give him the less old one, to "keep things going"

[chester]

I guess he would give him the less old one, to "keep things going"

Great call! So maybe to not "keep things going", he gives Locke the old one - at least once. :D

[abcd1234]

or give him something completely different. like the book of laws....of yeah I went there

[chester]

or give him something completely different. like the book of laws....of yeah I went there

Anything can happen, when you have free-will.

[abcd1234]

Anything can happen, when you have free-will.

that doesnt even mean anything

[chester]

that doesnt even mean anything

LOL Everything means something. Otherwise there's no butterfly effect.

[thebecoming]

I fail to see how the compass cannot be considered a time travelling entity, regardless of the method it is sent back/forward in time. The island is 'dragging' the characters around in time in the same way Locke dragged the compass.

Would you not consider Faraday's tie to be a time travelling entity? Are the only time travelling entities the nude characters? Would a severed leg travel through time with it's body? Or would the leg travel without the body? Does a time travelling entity have to be 'alive'?

I know it's getting ridiculous but I think it's reasonable to say that whatever travels through time is a 'time travelling entity'.

It is because the compass does not CONTINUE to time travel after Locke leaves 1954. It ages 53 years until Richard again gives it to Locke, and Locke time travels with it back to 1954. Locke does NOT stay in 1954 and age with it. He time travels out of 1954 and leaves the compass behind. He is on a linear path whereas the compass is forever stuck in the Chutes and Ladders game loop analogy.

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

It is because the compass does not CONTINUE to time travel after Locke leaves 1954. It ages 53 years until Richard again gives it to Locke, and Locke time travels with it back to 1954. Locke does NOT stay in 1954 and age with it. He time travels out of 1954 and leaves the compass behind. He is on a linear path whereas the compass is forever stuck in the Chutes and Ladders game loop analogy.

I think that's what littleredman is saying. Since the compass is looping, it is a time traveling entity. It travels back to 1954 on a loop (under this theory).

[abcd1234]

this is wrong. if locke takes the compass from richard, and gives it to him in 1954, obviously richard would have 2 compasses.

[thebecoming]

I think that's what littleredman is saying. Since the compass is looping, it is a time traveling entity. It travels back to 1954 on a loop (under this theory).

If the terminology is confusing I won't use it, but he seemed at odds with the point I was making, about Locke and the compass and how one is looping and one is not.

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

If the terminology is confusing I won't use it, but he seemed at odds with the point I was making, about Locke and the compass and how one is looping and one is not.

I think we all agree the compass is looping.
If the compass is looping, then it must be traveling through time.
If it is traveling through time, then it is a time traveling "entity."

Fair 'nuff?

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

this is wrong. if locke takes the compass from richard, and gives it to him in 1954, obviously richard would have 2 compasses.

Possibly, but where did Richard get the other compass from?

[wiley]

I think we all agree the compass is looping.
If the compass is looping, then it must be traveling through time.
If it is traveling through time, then it is a time traveling "entity."

Fair 'nuff?

I think the whole point of Locke making sure Richard gives the compass to him, is a way for the writers to make sure that they do NOT create a paradox.

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

I think the whole point of Locke making sure Richard gives the compass to him, is a way for the writers to make sure that they do NOT create a paradox.

It's not necessarily a paradox, just a loop. A paradox would involve a contradiction, but a loop does not have a contradiction...just a lack of origin.

[chester]

Have you seen the new Star Trek?

[chester]

It's not necessarily a paradox, just a loop. A paradox would involve a contradiction, but a loop does not have a contradiction...just a lack of origin.

There are different kinds of paradoxes. You only need a reasonable conclusion not to agree with 'common sense'.

[wiley]

It's not necessarily a paradox, just a loop. A paradox would involve a contradiction, but a loop does not have a contradiction...just a lack of origin.

Right but not giving Locke the compass would create a paradox. How would Richard have the compass if Locke never had it to give to Richard in the past?
Locke did have two compass's but he gave one to Micheal maybe he gave the other one to Richard in the past and then had him give it back in the future.
In the scene in follow the leader we never actually see Richard give Locke the compass.

[Chronos]

By jove! You've almost got it!!! Okay, stay with me. It was the same event from a different perspective. Here's why. When the island flashed John to that point, he has now lived it already. Ben was off island and had no idea about what was going on. He knew nothing about the flashes on the island or the beechcraft or anything. Richard had not yet lived it....until that moment! And, when he lived it, it was John telling him what to say. It's no different than when John saw the light from the hatch when they were flashing or when Sawyer saw Kate and Claire. Different perspective. Does that help you now?

The help those who still think Locke is in a time loop, here is a LINEAR, and abridged, biography of Locke's life:


Born in 1956
As a young boy he's visited by Richard with some odd toys
When a teenager he's encourage to attend advanced schooling, refuses
Meets his mother
Meets Cooper, his father
Donates his kidney to Cooper, who then bails out on him
Develops a relationship with Helen
Joins the pot-growing commune
Is pushed out the window by Cooper and becomes paralyzed
Gets on Oceanic 815, crashes on island, starts walking again
Discovers the Beachcraft plane
Discovers the hatch, and subsequently opens it
Has interaction with Ben
Meets the Others
Gets Sawyer to kill Cooper
Helps Ben get to the Orchid who then turns the wheel
Travels in time and gets shot in the leg by Ethan
Travels in time to 2007 and Richard is there to remove the bullet and be given the compass
Travels in time to 1954 to give Richard the compass
Travels in time again, reaches the well and drops into it
Travels in time to the distant past when the well is closed
Turns the wheel and ends up in Tunisia in 2007
Fails to get the O6 to agree with him to go back to the Island
Is killed by Ben
His body, in a casket, is placed on Ajira 316 and goes back to the Island
Rises from the dead
Takes Ben to go meet the Monster
Goes to Richard and takes him to the jungle
Observes how Richard takes the bullet out of the leg of his past self
Embarks on a quest to kill Jacob


As you can see... Locke's life is linear, he's not experiencing a loop of any kind.

That being said, I believe that the Locke we are seeing from step 26 on forward is NOT the same Locke that we saw in steps 1-25. I have a strong hunch that Locke is dead, the entity we are now seeing as Locke is actually a manifestation of the Island's Monster... or, more specifically, of the Island.

We know what happened to Christian, and this is the same thing that happened to Locke. Dead is dead. The clues have all been laid out for us.

As such, the Locke that observes Richard removing a bullet is not the Locke that's getting it removed.... no time loops whatsoever, but we already proved that in the abridged biography.

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

There are different kinds of paradoxes. You only need a reasonable conclusion not to agree with 'common sense'.

Presumably, your definition of paradox just blankets each of the components that I differentiate as paradox and loop. Just semantics, I guess.

[HisNameIsRobertPaulson]

Right but not giving Locke the compass would create a paradox. How would Richard have the compass if Locke never had it to give to Richard in the past?

I agree, if that would have happened, *then* it would have been a paradox.

Locke did have two compass's but he gave one to Micheal maybe he gave the other one to Richard in the past and then had him give it back in the future.

Maybe they have a trick going on where they can generate duplicate watches...sort of like The Prestige. :D

[chester]

Presumably, your definition of paradox just blankets each of the components that I differentiate as paradox and loop. Just semantics, I guess.

Yes, with language, everything is semantics. Unless it's grammatical. My definition of paradox includes not only logical contradiction, but also 'conflicts with other generally accepted beliefs'.